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Benny Badmen wrote: Reading that, how poorly the Harlequins were protrayed, Eldar loosing this beautiful prophecy simply to make Space Marines look cool... I'll probably never buy a GamesWorkshop product ever again. If this is truly what's meant to be, the Imperium foiling every prophecy, dismantling any other factions attempts at building then there's really no point. Whether written beautifully or not that is essentially the outcome we'll be facing time and time again. Even if the shards are salvageable all purpose is lost. Without any chance of resurgence for the Eldar, it's over... Simple as that.
Some of us, of course, remember playing Eldar armies in 40k long before all that Ynnead business was retconned into the fluff; somehow we had fun doing so anyway...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/14 20:11:32
That doesn't mean it couldn't have been written better or less one sided. Harlequins are arguably the most elite soldiers of a multi-million year old race of psychic-gifted geniuses with technology only rivaled by the necrons, they should not have been written like fodder. Imagine if there was a story about Death Leaper and let's say 6 lictors that attacked 100 grey knights led by Draigo who was in the midst of activating some ancient McGuffin device that would halt Abaddon's black crusade. Only for the Lictors and Death Leaper to slice through the Grey Knight's like a hot knife through butter. Finally Death Leaper approaches Draigo who is about to complete the McGuffin device's activation. Sensing his doom, Draigo looks Death Leaper in the eye and says "Diplomatic immunity..." Only for Death Leaper to shoot him in the head and say "...has just been revoked." How would that make you feel?
Only if there was a 'rubber tree' in it and a scene where a Death Leaper is on the toilet wired with a bomb...
Benny Badmen wrote: Reading that, how poorly the Harlequins were protrayed, Eldar loosing this beautiful prophecy simply to make Space Marines look cool... I'll probably never buy a GamesWorkshop product ever again. If this is truly what's meant to be, the Imperium foiling every prophecy, dismantling any other factions attempts at building then there's really no point. Whether written beautifully or not that is essentially the outcome we'll be facing time and time again. Even if the shards are salvageable all purpose is lost. Without any chance of resurgence for the Eldar, it's over... Simple as that.
Some of us, of course, remember playing Eldar armies in 40k long before all that Ynnead business was retconned into the fluff; somehow we had fun doing so anyway...
The Ynnead business has been around for a pretty long time now and has become somewhat fundamental to the larger story of the Eldar. People have the right to complain about decisions when there is a legitimate reason for doing so without people lazily accusing them of whining.
No one as far as I can see has said you can’t still have fun playing the Eldar on the table top? The complaints against what has happened are purely from a fluff prospective.
If in the next box set it’s the orks vs the Adeptus Custodes and the story takes place on terra do you not think people would complain if a previously never before heard of Ork warboss somehow managed to destroy the golden throne, slay the emperor and silence the Astronomican thus throwing the imperium into turmoil.
If your argument is that as long as you can still have fun playing them on the table top then you have no right to complain about any terrible fluff decisions that are related to your chosen faction then I don’t know what to say.
The Ynnead business has been around for a pretty long time now and has become somewhat fundamental to the larger story of the Eldar. People have the right to complain about decisions when there is a legitimate reason for doing so without people lazily accusing them of whining.
No one as far as I can see has said you can’t still have fun playing the Eldar on the table top? The complaints against what has happened are purely from a fluff prospective.
If in the next box set it’s the orks vs the Adeptus Custodes and the story takes place on terra do you not think people would complain if a previously never before heard of Ork warboss somehow managed to destroy the golden throne, slay the emperor and silence the Astronomican thus throwing the imperium into turmoil.
If your argument is that as long as you can still have fun playing them on the table top then you have no right to complain about any terrible fluff decisions that are related to your chosen faction then I don’t know what to say.
This is well said, Eldrad is literally the number 1 Craftworld Eldar special character, comparable to Abaddon, Vect, Ghazghkull, Dante and Grimnar, yet he's defeated by a barely known Captain (not even the highest ranked member of his own organization) and the defeat literally removes the primary military and civilian capacities (Craftworlds and Fleets) of the entire Craftworld Eldar faction.
I have no doubt that if a similar circumstance happened to any other faction (except Tau where so many people want the faction itself squatted I'm sure there'd be jubilant celebrations) and said faction lost power in all its worlds, fleets and spiritual realm as a result of a minor character from an enemy faction and their own chief character being a colossal idiot that it would be met very poorly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/14 21:22:50
Benny Badmen wrote: Reading that, how poorly the Harlequins were protrayed, Eldar loosing this beautiful prophecy simply to make Space Marines look cool... I'll probably never buy a GamesWorkshop product ever again. If this is truly what's meant to be, the Imperium foiling every prophecy, dismantling any other factions attempts at building then there's really no point. Whether written beautifully or not that is essentially the outcome we'll be facing time and time again. Even if the shards are salvageable all purpose is lost. Without any chance of resurgence for the Eldar, it's over... Simple as that.
Some of us, of course, remember playing Eldar armies in 40k long before all that Ynnead business was retconned into the fluff; somehow we had fun doing so anyway...
The Ynnead business has been around for a pretty long time now and has become somewhat fundamental to the larger story of the Eldar. People have the right to complain about decisions when there is a legitimate reason for doing so without people lazily accusing them of whining.
No one as far as I can see has said you can’t still have fun playing the Eldar on the table top? The complaints against what has happened are purely from a fluff prospective.
If in the next box set it’s the orks vs the Adeptus Custodes and the story takes place on terra do you not think people would complain if a previously never before heard of Ork warboss somehow managed to destroy the golden throne, slay the emperor and silence the Astronomican thus throwing the imperium into turmoil.
If your argument is that as long as you can still have fun playing them on the table top then you have no right to complain about any terrible fluff decisions that are related to your chosen faction then I don’t know what to say.
Ynnead has never been much more than a footnote to the Eldar fluff. I can't claim to have read every bit of GW's voluminous (and largely terrible) prose output, but pretending that he's central to the game's setting in a way analagous to the Emperor of Mankind is preposterous hyperbole.
(It also rather misses the point that the fluff constantly foregrounds how the Emperor is trapped in agony at the threshold of death, preserving a miserable dictatorship anathema to what he stood for, blah blah, grimdark, etc.)
I nabbed a copy of Death Masque today, and read through the whole lore thing before getting to work on the exquisite models.
Essentially, Eldrad gets it in his head that he can pre-summon Ynnead before he's ready by hijacking every infinity circuit in realspace. By having Harlequin contacts steal Crystal Seers ( the crystallised remains of Farseers that are hooked into their infinity circuits) from their final resting places, he can do this by using the psychic moon of Coheria, a vast, moon-sized lump of psychoactive crystal in Imperial hands.
However, there's a cost to this. If he does this, every infinity circuit would permanently shutdown, leaving all the Craftworlds and spaceships adrift, and the Exodite worlds open to attack. In addition, the resulting Warp beacon would drown out the Astronomicon, dooming billions of humans to deaths by daemons/cut off from the wider Imperium. Eldrad thinks that the deaths of a vast sum of humanity and the majority of his own kin is an acceptable tradeoff for the death of Slaanesh.
However, no one else thinks this. If he told anyone the truth, he'd be exiled at best. So he lies to the Autarchs of Ulthwe and Samm-Hain and gets them to deploy nearly 100k Eldar in the nearby Imperial dockyards to act as a decoy for his great ritual of betrayal. While the IMperials are distracted, he gets to work.
Then, as he's about to finish the ritual, 12 Angry Astartes drop from the sky and kick his ass. I'm serious; the Deathwatch tear through the Harlequins like they're Cultists. The Dreadnought personally stomps into the ritual area and fires a plasma cannon point blank into Eldrad's face. Artemis puts a bolt through Eldrad's Harlequin buddy (a Death Jester named Irinam who goes renegade and takes his personal Troupes away from the main Masque, who are busy defending the Black Library from a massive, renewed assault from Ahriman) after straight up telling him he'd rather watch the Imperium fall to Chaos than trust the word of an Eldar.
The ritual is disrupted, the Deathwatch bail out, the crystal moon explodes like the Death star, and Eldrad escapes into the webway, falling unconsious like a damsel in distress as Ynnead is denied his grand entrance.
Slaanesh is laughing their ass off the entire way through.
TL;DR: Chaos wins. Everyone else loses. Especially Eldrad, but he's a dick so who cares about him?
Ynnead has never been much more than a footnote to the Eldar fluff.
Ynnead has become far more prevalent in the Eldar fluff in the recent decade with mentions in all of the different Eldar factions codex’s. The Craftworlder’s, the harlequins and even the Dark Eldar all had plans that centred around Ynnead’s birth. She was their end game.
I can't claim to have read every bit of GW's voluminous (and largely terrible) prose output
Can’t really argue with that.
but pretending that he's central to the game's setting in a way analagous to the Emperor of Mankind is preposterous hyperbole.
I don’t think i said she was as central to the game’s setting as the Emperor but simply used it as an example to display how such an event might be replicated using another faction. Just to satisfy my curiosity if you would, if the situation I described did happen how would you feel about it?
Personally I’m hoping that this is all part of Cegorach’s final trick and that this was all part of the great harlequins master plan.
I feel that the thread may have gone a bit off topic, perhaps it would be better to take this to the "Each factions end game?" Thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/14 23:47:18
I know some Eldar and many Space Marine players IRL who thought in the end times Tau would get wrecked first and worst. So at least I can laugh about this to them.
Ha Ha. Silly Eldar always acting so high and mighty then screwing themselves over. Ah good times. That was just the prelude. I can't wait to see how much worse everything gets.
Edit
When I heard what happened I laughed so hard in real life.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/15 05:57:10
Eldrad's plot isn't the same as Cegorach's. What if the entire purpose of mini god Ynnead is to be consumed by spawned and get them trapped in the infinity circuits!
It would be a wonderful trick, and certainly would be using her to ensure the resurgence of the Eldar!
1. I think it's safe to say we all knew the plan wouldn't work as intended. Birthing a new god and defeating Slaanesh is too big of a shift to make in one box and thinking of the business side of things what now happens to all those Slaanesh armies? It wouldn't make good sense to have Eldrads plan come to fruition. I admit it's anti-climactic but overall expected.
2. This won't spell doom for the Eldar in the long run. GW needs to keep them in the game and so will eventually have to throw them a new bone to chase. Wasn't there a big thing about Cegorach, The Laughing God, in the Harlies codex where he would play a vital role? We still have plots to follow, Ynnead wasn't the only plot-line to follow.
3. Ultimately what I feel is disappointing is that the plan was essentially foiled by 13 marines. I know GW likes to play up how awesome individual marines are but this was kind of a major plot piece to have the action-movie crew come in and clean house in. Insult to injury is that this was an essentially nobody captain that foiled a major Eldar hero that's been in the lore since long before I started playing 40K.
Ultimately the main story plot and its conclusion in this box is expected. The real crime IMO is the way in which the ritual was stopped. The writers could have written any number of ways that the plan went awry but ultimately settled on "small elite task force goes in guns blazing". It's just not very believable and is not satisfying at all unless you're a DW fanboy or loathe Eldar. It very much just feels like GW was only interested in the end in making sure DW were as awesome and badass as they could write them.
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Inevitable_Faith wrote: 3. Ultimately what I feel is disappointing is that the plan was essentially foiled by 13 marines. I know GW likes to play up how awesome individual marines are but this was kind of a major plot piece to have the action-movie crew come in and clean house in. Insult to injury is that this was an essentially nobody captain that foiled a major Eldar hero that's been in the lore since long before I started playing 40K.
As much as I hate to say it, is anyone really surprised though? Eldar vs space marines, space marines win because space marines are top cool and cannot lose to anything since they are space marines and space marines are the bess!
Take out a small group and god of a race that doesn't actively seek to wipe out humanity and directly aid Chaos. In other words: A is the one where you potentially save Humanity. B. is where you help your greatest enemy. Artemis chose B like an idiot. He's a Space Marine. Even while specialising against a certain type of threat his job is defending the Imperium. He failed massively.
Eldar spy detected.
Backspacehacker wrote: Correct me if im wrong, as im not versed in eldar lore much, but from what i have read, and been told.
Aint Eldraad one of the most well know, "all according to plan," Characters in 40k?
He is an interesting one. Yes he is a nasty plotter and isn't above ignoring prophesies of other seers or spoiling the plan of other eldar factions based on his own visions , stubbornnes or ideals He is known for betraying and sacrificing millions in order to move his own plan one step further. And still he is one of the few major eldar players who didn't accept the "kill all vermin plan" when the cabal decided upon the fate of humanity, chaos and the universe. So he might actually be one of the "good guys" or just a fan of using suffering humans as his tool...
You might want to read up on the reason why there was a Second War for Armageddon, If you like a more recent reason why the deathwatch should shoot anyone on sight who has anything to do with Eldrad.... Hint this is a good place to start: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eldrad_Ulthran
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other reason if you don't care about assassination attempts on the emperor or the death of millions of humans might be that he should not be alive at all. So this "Eldrad" is likely an imposter and might just be an agent of some dark god.
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2016/08/15 15:29:17
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From my knowledge, wasn't Ynnead meant to be birthed after the death of the last Eldar? Only then being powerful enough to take on Slaneesh? If Eldrad had succeeded, I can only imagine that Ynnead would have gotten bitch slapped so hard by Slannesh he would have disappeared right out of existence. After all, Khorne couldn't put down Slaneesh right after her birth, what chance would a half formed Eldar god have had?
If anything, the Death Watch have done the Eldar a favour by having at least part of Ynnead surviving Eldrad's stupidity and given Ynnead a chance to return in the future.
I would be less surprised when this was actually just one of eldrads just as planned moments and that those marines played the role that they where expected to preform.
This isn't the first time and we all know that he could have stopped those marines before they where even born if he really wanted.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Gw likes to give characters a theme. Eldrads is the rebellious plotter who somehow saves his race at the end of the day by screwing others over. No way that gw would change this in the starter set of a grand campaign
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/15 18:20:57
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oldzoggy wrote: I would be less surprised when this was actually just one of eldrads just as planned moments and that those marines played the role that they where expected to preform.
This isn't the first time and we all know that he could have stopped those marines before they where even born if he really wanted.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Gw likes to give characters a theme. Eldrads is the rebellious plotter who somehow saves his race at the end of the day by screwing others over. No way that gw would change this in the starter set of a grand campaign
No is not, maybe some sector of internet population has led you to believe it but Eldrad it's not a rebellious plotter and never been.
He's always been the uttermost determination, defying to even rest or finally die (crystalize) past his time in order to protect his kind, always performing his duty not matter the cost. Ironically he has more in common with the die hard chaplains of the Marines like Lemartes or Cassius (going on just by sheer force of will to keep performing their duty ) than the Vect portrayal some people wish to put upon him.
@Inevitable_Faith: My personal views on it are quite similar to yours, I only differ in that I also think that the Craftworld Eldar's consistent inability to win almost anything of note is vexing and that I think the defeat was too extreme, having Eldrad fail would have been good enough, but having the Craftworlds go dark, all Infinity Circuits go quiet, the Exodites are described as now being helpless and the fleets of the Eldar are described as being defenceless too. That's far too much! It's hyperbolic on its own.
Other than that I do just doubt your presumption that 'the Eldar will be thrown a bone eventually' I would not be surprised if the Craftworld Eldar never get thrown a 'narrative' bone.
@Backspacehacker: The narrative makes very clearly that none of what happened was according to Eldrad's plan. Per the narrative's description Eldrad failed the moment he sought to shield himself from Nihilus' Plasma bolt and what happened was completely different to what he wanted. This is not a 'grand plan' of his, he just failed. Again.
@oldzoggy: I read Throneworld...I specifically remember the Shadowseer stating that she was there to deliver a message to the Emperor, I remember nothing of her attempting to murder the Emperor and, to be honest, considering her entire inner monologue would find it baffling if she actually thought she could since she goes to great lengths to explain how powerful the Emperor is. I might have missed something but can you say where she attempts to assassinate the Emperor?
@Inquisitor Gideon: The Ritual would specifically, through Warp Magic, allow Ynnead to emerge without needing the last of the Eldar to die, hence why Eldrad wanted to try it. Also discussing the power of Warp Gods in such material terms is not wise since their power fluctuates wildly based on numerous factors (which makes sense since the Warp is in constant flux) since the Eldar Gods existed without threat from all three Chaos Gods for millennia and then died due to the unique propensity of Slaanesh's birth (from inside, and as a result of the Eldar's turning away from them). In general the Gods of 40k, like most actual myths, run on narrative confluences as opposed to hard Power Levels and material realities.
Also i don't get this 'Eldrad's so competent' or the theme that he wins. Other than the Second Armageddon War is there any other time in fluff his or Ulthwe's manipulations have yielded enormous success? To my knowledge, like Ghazghkull, Eldrad hasn't really ever achieved much.
Even if their power does fluctuate, it wouldn't be enough for Ynnead to be any form of threat. Even if the miracle happened and Slaneesh was put down, the other three aren't going to allow it to continue to exist. I can't imagine any of them would entertain the thought of something existing that could possibly threaten them. I'd actually like to see it, if anything just for a proper chaos team up again. But then, the eventualty is that Khorne is just going to end up with a new ring on his finger.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: 3. Ultimately what I feel is disappointing is that the plan was essentially foiled by 13 marines. I know GW likes to play up how awesome individual marines are but this was kind of a major plot piece to have the action-movie crew come in and clean house in. Insult to injury is that this was an essentially nobody captain that foiled a major Eldar hero that's been in the lore since long before I started playing 40K.
As much as I hate to say it, is anyone really surprised though? Eldar vs space marines, space marines win because space marines are top cool and cannot lose to anything since they are space marines and space marines are the bess!
If this was a Black Library novel focused on a unit of space marines determined to stop an Eldar plot as the protagonists then this writing would have been less divisive because when you read a space marine novel you expect the space marines to win or have at least some sort of bittersweet ending at worst. What I think GW often doesn't realize is that when it comes to these boxed games it's not just one player-base buying the box, it's two, the IoM players AND the xenos players. The story needs to be written now knowing that the space marines aren't your only protagonists but the Eldar are now too (or whoever the marines fight in any boxed game for that matter). GW seems to think in many cases that they only have IoM players and that all the xenos (or chaos) races are just AI controlled opponents like in some computer game. That they don't need to make the "bad guy" player feel good about a story or have any victories because you can't hurt the feelings of a computer. Well the xenos players are real people too and same with chaos players and so getting trounced by marines all the time gets pretty old.
Now I'm not trying to state that marines always win or that the xenos races always lose (there's too much lore out there, I haven't read it all) but what I am saying is that this is a box set made for two people. Two people that are going to have an investment and a bias towards one faction or the other depending on what army they field and because of this the writing should be used to make both factions seem cool and epic without demoting one of them to "evil NPC bad guy #47". To be honest I think it would have been wiser for GW to write this box set into a stalemate between Eldrad and the DW and have Black Library progress the main 40k universe story in a novel. That way the box set can portray both Eldrad/Harlies and DW as the protagonists in equal parts so that no player feels like he's playing the lesser of the two factions.
As an aside it must sting as the xenos player in this box set that if you play the campaign against a buddy no matter how much you win in every mission it all means nothing because the lore in the box states that at the end of the day you lose anyways, it cheapens any victory you may feel good about as the Harlie player.
Anemone wrote:@Inevitable_Faith: My personal views on it are quite similar to yours, I only differ in that I also think that the Craftworld Eldar's consistent inability to win almost anything of note is vexing and that I think the defeat was too extreme, having Eldrad fail would have been good enough, but having the Craftworlds go dark, all Infinity Circuits go quiet, the Exodites are described as now being helpless and the fleets of the Eldar are described as being defenceless too. That's far too much! It's hyperbolic on its own.
Other than that I do just doubt your presumption that 'the Eldar will be thrown a bone eventually' I would not be surprised if the Craftworld Eldar never get thrown a 'narrative' bone
I haven't read every bit of Eldar lore out there but from what I have read I agree that it does start to wear on my enthusiasm for the Eldar that they almost always lose in the end or get a pyrrhic victory at best. Hope is a powerful thing and does wonders to ignite a spark of passion for anything, 40k armies included, and to constantly have it taken away is actively lessening my excitement for anything Eldar. I got excited for this plot advancement and now I find myself lost as to what the Eldar need to do next, it's not a good feeling and does nothing to make me want to start my Harlie army. It's a tough balancing act but GW needs to find the right balance between "dying race on the brink of extinction" and "outnumbered space elves seeking their salvation" to make Eldar feel both threatened and at the same time be important players within the 40k universe. These constant losses are not helping their image.
As I said earlier the Eldar are a well established faction on the TT and GW can't squat them due to lore reasons so they will have to eventually make some sort of reasoning as to their continued presence in the universe. I understand right now things looks super bleak but they can't just leave it at this, they'll have to add more. As for the " Craftworlds go dark, all Infinity Circuits go quiet, the Exodites are described as now being helpless and the fleets of the Eldar are described as being defenceless" part I'm not sure about that. I don't own DM so I can't read through the lore at my leisure but where does it say all of this happened? To my knowledge if Eldrads plan worked then that would have happened but since the ritual got interrupted then perhaps all the above stated doom and gloom never transpired? I'm just shooting in the dark now but how can the Eldar function as a military force if all this happened?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/15 20:15:11
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You know a few months back there were very specific rumors of upcoming Eldar models. One was described as a Wraith unit put back together and being held together by raw energy or something like that on Faeit.
What if that is what it will take to keep Eldar tech functioning? It seems to fit for such a panned rumor.
Gamgee wrote: You know a few months back there were very specific rumors of upcoming Eldar models. One was described as a Wraith unit put back together and being held together by raw energy or something like that on Faeit.
What if that is what it will take to keep Eldar tech functioning? It seems to fit for such a panned rumor.
Seems more likely Faeit was spouting rubbish to me.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
@anemone they where send there to send a peaceful message to the emperror, and they had vulcans trinket to prove their good will.All the inquisition saw was just a group of crazed elder clowns murdering their way to the throne room. The lone survivor was captured and asked about their assassination plans and how she got there but she continued to lie. So yeah it doesn't matter that Eldead tried to warn them against chaos and sacrificed many elder lives in the process all that mattered is what the inquisitors saw and that they now command the deathwatch partly to prevent horrors like these from happening again
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Yneead probably isn't dead and the eldar are still in the game
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123ply wrote: Yneead probably isn't dead and the eldar are still in the game
We will just have to wait and see what they have planned.
After giving it a bit of thought (and a good night’s sleep) I want to be more positive regarding the possible future of the Eldar but this has still left a very nasty after taste.
I want to believe that the bright spark that flew into the void was Ynnead successfully born but not quite in the way Eldrad intended. And that it will play apart in Cegorach’s ultimate jest, which is apparently to trick Slaanesh into expending all her power not to destroy the Eldar, but to save them. If Eldrad had succeeded then Ynnead’s explosive entrance would have alerted Slaanesh immediately but if Slaanesh believes that it failed to materialise the spark might be able to go undetected and slowly draw Eldar souls to it and away from Slaanesh, this could actually work out for the best, who knows?
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cosmicsoybean wrote: 3. Ultimately what I feel is disappointing is that the plan was essentially foiled by 13 marines. I know GW likes to play up how awesome individual marines are but this was kind of a major plot piece to have the action-movie crew come in and clean house in. Insult to injury is that this was an essentially nobody captain that foiled a major Eldar hero that's been in the lore since long before I started playing 40K.
Why is it unreasonable? Eldrad's harlequin guards were not all that many either, and the fact that a plasma pistol shot interrupted his concentration seems, well, pretty reasonable to me? The fact that he is a well known character alone is not enough to stop plasma shots - he actually has to stop it with his powers. I do not see a problem with that lack of plot armor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inevitable_Faith wrote: What I think GW often doesn't realize is that when it comes to these boxed games it's not just one player-base buying the box, it's two, the IoM players AND the xenos players.
I do not see your point. Both being player factions does not mean that one side won't lose.
The alternative is the rather boring stagnation that, for example, plagues the entire A-H conflict arc in WoW.
In order for anything meaningful to happen in a conflict, it either has to end through peace or one side has to start winning - otherwise it stagnates. That the plasma pistol was held by a newly introduced character does not make the shot less deadly.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/08/16 00:15:00
Did expect spoilers and info .... but nothing in this thread ? 
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