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But it DOES cheapen the established character, and rub people who have invested time and attention into that character the wrong way.

I can see how an Eldar fan would take it that way.

I think it should have been a guardsman holding the plasma pistol, personally.

For parallel and contrast to the Battle of Terra.

 Jimsolo wrote:
But it DOES cheapen the established character, and rub people who have invested time and attention into that character the wrong way.

I can see how an Eldar fan would take it that way.

Tabletop he would be fine because T4 but I suppose getting hit with a plasma cannon otherwise might be distracting.

Tabletop he would be fine if you hit him in the face with a Deathstrike Missile (his harlequin buddies give him EW)

Fortunately, however, this is not tabletop.

I understand what you're saying Ahiraya about the plasma shot distracting him, that makes enough sense to me as is. My contempt stems from the sequence of events that led to that plasma shot being fired. In short the movie-heroes barge in guns blazing and get the distracting shot off. It's so terribly cliché and uninspired. It's the plot of every Hollywood action hero who ever stopped an evil super villain from carrying out his dastardly plans. It's a shock that Eldrad didn't walk through the webway shaking his fist at Artemis shouting "I'll get you next time Artemis!" while twirling his curled mustache just to put the cliché cherry on top. It was an uninspired ending to an event that GW put a lot of time and effort hyping up. The issue is not that the plan failed, it's that they didn't seem to put any thought into an interesting way for it to fail.

The other issue at hand is who foiled Eldrad. Jimsolo hit the nail on the head here on how it cheapens an established character that has been written to be such a powerful being to be beaten by a nobody who just came out of nowhere and just got his nametag that morning. If you've played the pre-patch for WoW then I'd love to explain a perfect example of this to you but I'll refrain from it for the moment because spoilers. This pre-patch has a great example that is pertinent to this conversation.

I also agree that we can't have a stalemate in the lore all the time, that gets dry. A and H in WoW is actually a great example of this but at least Blizzard realizes that there are actual players on both sides of the factions and that one faction isn't just the NPC bad guys and so they make the attempt to do two things:

1. Make sure that both factions are represented in a moral "shades of grey" tone so as not to clearly fall into a "good guys vs bad guys" trope. This makes it so no matter what faction you fight for you can always feel like you're fighting for a good cause and not feel alienated into being "the bad guys".

2. They also make the effort to show both victories and defeats on both factions sides. Since the launch of WoW you can can see an almost 50/50 split between A and H victories and a good number of draws as well. This makes it clear that both are powerful forces and that no force is ultimately stronger than the other. This serves in allowing the players to feel like they are part of a group that can stand on it's own and accomplish things.

Both of these things serve to make the players of either faction feel important and capable no matter which side they chose. This is exactly the feeling that should be introduced to both players of Death Masque (or any boxed game for that matter), that both factions are important, both are capable and that both have something worth fighting for. Sadly the way this was written was that IoM is good guys, Eldar deserve to go extinct and that good guys won because space marines are awesome.

It's fine for a fluff novel to choose the winning side or have a clear "protagonist vs antagonist" plot but because this is a boxed game aimed at two people playing opposing factions I actually feel having it written in such a way that the sides stalemate or take their own respective victories with no clear winner is the correct option. This way both players of the boxed campaign can feel worthwhile in equal measures. Save the "winners vs losers" stuff for the novels where if I buy a DW novel I expect the DW to be awesome and win their hard-fought battles.

I sincerely hope I explained myself well cause I know it's very difficult to get complex issues out in writing. I don't mean to discredit anything you say Ashiraya I just wish to show another side of the coin.

pm713 wrote:

Animus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
He knows they were going to hurt Slaanesh, he knew the Harlequin wasn't lying

He knew no such things. He knew that the Eldar had launched a massive invasion of an important Imperial World and that they were doing something dodgy on the moon of that world.
He has no reason to believe what the Eldar tell him, especially when he has no time to waste.

He was told right before he shot the Harlequin in the face. On top of that he's a member of the Deathwatch so he should know a basic thing like colourful Eldar + Mask = Harlequin. Harlequin = Chaos enemy. Again the paragraph states that he didn't think the Harlequin was lying. Artemis suffers from the common problem of plot induced stupidity.

And he knows Harlequin is an Eldar and Eldar keep attacking Imperium. Somebody who keeps attacking you is no ally. And if he's not ally how can you take his words at face value when lives of humans could be at risk? Being deathwatch he should also know Eldars value Eldar life only. Not human life. Humans can all burn as long as it means even one more eldar survives.

That's right. Eldars will trade EVERY human for ONE eldar. Without blinking an eye.

And you think Artemis should blindly believe what he states?

@Inquisitor Gideon: Except calculating it that way doesn't help. For Millenia Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were totally impotent whilst the Eldar Gods weren't, Gork and Mork barely ever do anything despite being described as divine 'powerhouses' to quote the lore. The Warp Gods don't work on a "I have done X in the past so I can do Y now and if I can do Z then my Equal can do Z to so combined we have V power". Like real myths they work more like; this happened and was fated to happen. But I'm not going to side track into the discussion now anyway so suffice to say we disagree with each other on this point. That's fine with me.

@Inevitable_Faith: At the height of the ritual this occurs; everything based of Craftworld Eldar (and Exodite tech) apparently shuts down. It occurs. I'll admit maybe they'll reveal that because the ritual 'failed' it'll reverse but, at the same time, the logic also exists that because it has already happened it won't reverse.

To put it simply Eldrad's own description of the entire plot sounds as if he is literally saying; "If I succeed we live, if I fail all Eldar die," so he seems pretty certain this was an all-or-nothing gamble of the entire species.

But we'll wait to see what they do next, certainly, but I also will still feel annoyed by this development because it entrenches the Imperium's inability to lose.

@oldzoggy: Oh, so you were more talking from their perspective in lore, I understand now, I think I misunderstood what you were doing before.

@Ashiraya: The problem is that one side never loses in the Starter sets; the Imperium. If there was some degree of parity, by having starter sets and major narrative supplements which a faction other than the Imperium won it would be fine, but that's not what happened.

Or are you suggesting only one faction should win everything constantly? That's a narrative stagnation of its own kind since it leads you into having a predictable story in which you can always know the protagonist (the Marines) will win no matter what at the end. That's a narrative stagnation which utterly kills any suspense.

@Jimsolo: That is really one thing that bothers me a lot, I like the way you put it. How would people react if an Exarch Special Character in the very book he was introduced bested Logan Grimnar? If one's willing to do it to Eldrad why not have some parity and be willing to do it to the major established characters of other factions?

Seriously I just don't like it.

 Anemone wrote:
@Inevitable_Faith: At the height of the ritual this occurs; everything based of Craftworld Eldar (and Exodite tech) apparently shuts down. It occurs. I'll admit maybe they'll reveal that because the ritual 'failed' it'll reverse but, at the same time, the logic also exists that because it has already happened it won't reverse.

To put it simply Eldrad's own description of the entire plot sounds as if he is literally saying; "If I succeed we live, if I fail all Eldar die," so he seems pretty certain this was an all-or-nothing gamble of the entire species.

But we'll wait to see what they do next, certainly, but I also will still feel annoyed by this development because it entrenches the Imperium's inability to lose.

Going to be funny to see how GW keeps Eldar major faction. Sure sounds like infinity circuis was drained completely and then ritual failed. No infinity circuit, no craftworlds. Do even their webway gates work enough to evacuate to some planet?

Of course this being GW they can write whatever they wish. Doesn't even have to be logical based on previous books.

Everyone should know Tzeentch is running the show at Gdubs by now.
Eldar fluffers know how Thousand Son fluffers have been treated. Never liked that Ynneed stuff any way.
Not sure why the DJ laid his cannon down, unless Artemus has a larger role to play. Need more info.
Looks like theyre going to combine the Eldar. Ala AOS. Pain engines instead of wraith. Blah blah. It doesnt look to good for the Eldar.
The golden point shooting off, smells like the end AOS and annoyed the feth out of me.
Wait till theres a combined necrodar god, that the reborn Emp makes a deal with. Or some other grox plop
.

an established character that has been written to be such a powerful being to be beaten by a nobody who just came out of nowhere and just got his nametag that morning.

Just one thing to note: Artemis is not exactly 'came out of nowhere' - he's the original named Deathwatch marine and has been in the background and on the table and been name-checked in rulebooks, novels, audiobooks and so on for fifteen years.

 Anemone wrote:
The problem is that one side never loses in the Starter sets; the Imperium. If there was some degree of parity, by having starter sets and major narrative supplements which a faction other than the Imperium won it would be fine, but that's not what happened.

Or are you suggesting only one faction should win everything constantly? That's a narrative stagnation of its own kind since it leads you into having a predictable story in which you can always know the protagonist (the Marines) will win no matter what at the end. That's a narrative stagnation which utterly kills any suspense.

I think you should turn down your expectations on starter sets, really. Marines are by far the most popular faction and GW's lovechild; obviously they will write them off as as impressive as possible.

I do not think that is ideal - I'd prefer a starting set with no Marines at all, as I like Marines but I like variation even more - but what happened here is very much par for the course and has been for a fair while now. It is no surprise.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
My contempt stems from the sequence of events that led to that plasma shot being fired. In short the movie-heroes barge in guns blazing and get the distracting shot off. It's so terribly cliché and uninspired. It's the plot of every Hollywood action hero who ever stopped an evil super villain from carrying out his dastardly plans. It's a shock that Eldrad didn't walk through the webway shaking his fist at Artemis shouting "I'll get you next time Artemis!" while twirling his curled mustache just to put the cliché cherry on top. It was an uninspired ending to an event that GW put a lot of time and effort hyping up. The issue is not that the plan failed, it's that they didn't seem to put any thought into an interesting way for it to fail.

40k is jampacked with clichés and lazy writing. I am more surprised that anyone expected some satisfying narrative from this. Even the Eldar themselves are just the usual elf tropes dragged into a sci-fi setting.
I suppose they set this up to, as was said earlier, add some grimdark without shifting the status quo too much in practice (ie no one's Eldar armies have suddenly become invalid) which I guess works.

The other issue at hand is who foiled Eldrad. Jimsolo hit the nail on the head here on how it cheapens an established character that has been written to be such a powerful being to be beaten by a nobody who just came out of nowhere and just got his nametag that morning. If you've played the pre-patch for WoW then I'd love to explain a perfect example of this to you but I'll refrain from it for the moment because spoilers. This pre-patch has a great example that is pertinent to this conversation.

I did play the prepatch, and what happened to Vol'jin does not overly bother me (what bothered me is Sylvanas, she has more plot armour than Tau and Imperium put together, but that is another topic.) He let his guard down, a demon exploited that, and he paid for it. Eldrad let his guard down (he had to for his ritual), a Marine exploited that, and Eldrad paid for it. If anything, the fact that he managed to perceive an incoming plasma shot, drop his ritual, and empower his armour to completely stop the shot only writes him off as more impressive still. Those hypersonic reactions.

Both of these things serve to make the players of either faction feel important and capable no matter which side they chose. This is exactly the feeling that should be introduced to both players of Death Masque (or any boxed game for that matter), that both factions are important, both are capable and that both have something worth fighting for. Sadly the way this was written was that IoM is good guys, Eldar deserve to go extinct and that good guys won because space marines are awesome.

No, I think it is just written to be a... feasible narrative rather than a Blizzard narrative designed to throw out one bone per faction per conflict. Again, Eldrad may be more liked than Artemis, but that alone cannot stop a plasma bolt, and it's not like there are a lot of well-known Deathwatch characters to pick from. Ironically, in such an unrealistic setting as this, having war be rather unfair is actually something rather realistic.

It's fine for a fluff novel to choose the winning side or have a clear "protagonist vs antagonist" plot but because this is a boxed game aimed at two people playing opposing factions I actually feel having it written in such a way that the sides stalemate or take their own respective victories with no clear winner is the correct option. This way both players of the boxed campaign can feel worthwhile in equal measures. Save the "winners vs losers" stuff for the novels where if I buy a DW novel I expect the DW to be awesome and win their hard-fought battles.

Overall, I think everyone just cares too much about this. This was an inevitable conclusion. Consider that if Eldrad had succeeded, the Eldar would essentially win 40k - they would have a god that could beat up Slaanesh, the doom of the Eldar would be averted and they could start taking their galaxy back. This outcome, while a setback that pushes Eldar's doom-clock another hour forward, otherwise does not change very much. Surely this is the closest to the stalemate you desire?

I sincerely hope I explained myself well cause I know it's very difficult to get complex issues out in writing. I don't mean to discredit anything you say Ashiraya I just wish to show another side of the coin.

Noted.

The state of the infinity circuits is what's the big deal. If they indeed are drained and all the souls gone, then it is basically game over for Eldar. But is this really the case? To me it merely seemed like some people's overwrought interpretation of somewhat vague story.

 Crimson wrote:
The state of the infinity circuits is what's the big deal. If they indeed are drained and all the souls gone, then it is basically game over for Eldar. But is this really the case? To me it merely seemed like some people's overwrought interpretation of somewhat vague story.

They should probably stop using Guardians on foot and get more Scatterbikes then.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The state of the infinity circuits is what's the big deal. If they indeed are drained and all the souls gone, then it is basically game over for Eldar. But is this really the case? To me it merely seemed like some people's overwrought interpretation of somewhat vague story.

They should probably stop using Guardians on foot and get more Scatterbikes then.

If the infinity circuits die then all Craftworlders are dead.

So Eldrad is going to be Teclis then in the Age of the Emperor?

Was there any mention of Illyana as one of the more prominant advocates of raising Ynead? Also is the latter now definately "She"?

Any Dark Eldar involvement?

@Iocarno24: There is no comparison to the degree of presence Eldrad and Artemis respectively have. If this is acceptable then I want parity; have Logan Grimnar bested by Grotsnik, Kharn bested by Sergeant Harker or some such similar situation.

@Ashiraya: I don't really understand what you're saying, to be honest, something not 'being a surprise' doesn't really have any bearing on whether it is desirable or not. My largest gripe with the state of 40k as a whole is how little anything surprises me because 8/10 times the result is simply a variation of 'the Imperium wins'. It feels like a kids cartoon the predictability with which the 'protagonist' wins.

Also, the point concerning Eldrad's defeat, if that's the case why not have a major character from another faction then be bested by a minor character? Do you think someone like Dante would ever be beat by a minor character few people know anything about?

Also it is not close to a stalemate. Close to a stalemate would have been a failure of the ritual which leads to Ynnead not emerging but also still leaves open Ynnead's role in the plot. The Craftworld Eldar had all their fleets and technology powered down, lost all their previous ancestors (which is one of their major strong points as a faction). This isn't a stalemate, its the most grievous defeat in 40k faction has ever suffered in the 41st millennium.

@Mr Morden: I hope no one becomes any type of 'Teclis' personally.

Sadly, disappointingly after the build up in the Valedor novel, neither Illyana or the Tears of Morai-Heg seem to be mentioned or important. I can't confirm for certain but, as fat as I can tell, they have no role and neither do the Dark Eldar.

A pity.

They didn't completely lose the Infinity Circuit though

 Anemone wrote:


@Mr Morden: I hope no one becomes any type of 'Teclis' personally.

Sadly, disappointingly after the build up in the Valedor novel, neither Illyana or the Tears of Morai-Heg seem to be mentioned or important. I can't confirm for certain but, as fat as I can tell, they have no role and neither do the Dark Eldar.

A pity.

That is a pity :(

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They didn't completely lose the Infinity Circuit though

The quotes seem to indicate ritual drained circuit as planned and then got interrupted. Which leaves dead circuit.

Maybe there's piece nobody has posted though that indicates otherwise. Or GW writes next installment so that it wasn't. Or they retcon so that craftworlds operate without circuit.

Ugh... I'm consigning this to the draw in my head-canon labelled, "Didn't Happen".

It said the circuits gave a piece of themselves.

It is a weakening, not destruction.

Weakening is acceptable. Not good but I can tolerate it.

@locarno24: My apologies on my mistake above about Artemis. Admittedly I've never searched out DW novels or lore items as they aren't a faction that interests me so I didn't know he had been established prior to Death Masque.

@Ashiraya: I initially didn't care too much about the manner in which Vol'Jin died either. You are correct, he dropped his guard and it was exploited. The part that bothered me was later in that same video where Varian Wrynn died. It wasn't a simple slip in his guard that was exploited by random demon #477, it was much more than that. He single-handedly took out a fel reaver fought a bunch of demons until he was inevitably surrounded then turned into a pin cushion, brought to Gul'Dan (an established character made to be a credible threat) then Gul'Dan gave his speech and blew Wrynn into little Fel chunks. That was the point I felt cheated. You see while Vol'Jin's death was believable, it lacked any amount of energy or interesting points. Wrynn's death on the other hand was in a word: Epic. In my opinion the video made the Horde out to be a bunch of chumps who called the first retreat and made the Allince (vicariously through their king) seem like the badass warriors willing to risk it all and fight to save Azeroth. Ultimately it just felt like an unfair representation that favoured the Alliance.

Now this video was relevant to this discussion because this is what GW loves to do, especially with these boxed games. The IoM is always made to look like the good guys and are pre-written to win. This does the other factions no favours and does nothing to generate further interest in them. Who wants to play the NPC villains instead of the heroic defenders of the universe? Dungeon masters for Dungeons and Dragons I suppose but that's a different game.

As I've said the plasma shot was fine, in fact it would have been more believable that he couldn't deflect it and that he'd suffer a grievous wound but that's plot armour. To me it just felt that 13 marines was just too small of a force to go in and accomplish what they did. If it was 13 marines lead by a primarch? Then it would have been much more epic, we know the Primarchs to me great warriors and more than mere super-soldiers in their own right. Most Primarchs are written as one-man armies in their own right so any assault led by a Primarch feels much grander than many other characters could muster. While Artemis is not new, I've recently learned, he's still pretty small-fry compared to the bigger SM dudes like Marneus Calgar or Dante. It just doesn't feel good having one of the biggest and most prominent named characters of a faction you care about foiled by a minor character of a different faction.

The final resolution of the plot I agree with, Eldrad couldn't succeed, it would have been to much of a plot shift for the universe and I don't feel GW could handle that. I'm not surprised or disappointed in that.

They aren't JUST Marines though, the Deathwatch are the best Alien Hunters the Adeptus Astartes produce, gathered together and trained to take on any threat. They are the CIA Special Activities Division of the Space Marines, the literal best. Its the job of these 13 dudes to take out dudes like the Harlequins, and that Eldrad survived (because well he is a main character and a badass) is a testament to his badassery.

Mr Morden wrote:Was there any mention of Illyana as one of the more prominant advocates of raising Ynead? Also is the latter now definately "She"?

Sorry as far as i can tell there is no mention of Illyana which is a shame because she is going to be seriously angry at Eldrad for all of this. You’re probably safe referring to Ynnead as either she or he in the same way as Slaanesh can be referred to as the dark prince or she who thirsts.

Ashiraya wrote:It said the circuits gave a piece of themselves.

It is a weakening, not destruction.

I guess it’s all in how you read it. The implication is that Eldrad hijacked the infinity circuits of the craftworlds by using the stolen crystal seers as conduits, thus drawing all the spirits they contained to the crystal moon where they coalesced into a primordial soap of souls were they all gave up a part of themselves in order to bring Ynnead into existence. When the ritual failed the crystal seers shattered meaning that there was no way for them to return to the Infinity circuits of their Craftworlds essentially leaving them stranded. Now if this is anything like AOS then Slaanesh is about to have the feast of a life time but again this is all dependent upon what GW does next.

Maybe like AoS Slaanesh will get fat and Yriel and Eldrad will waltz into the Eye of Terror and beat Slaanesh up.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They aren't JUST Marines though, the Deathwatch are the best Alien Hunters the Adeptus Astartes produce, gathered together and trained to take on any threat. They are the CIA Special Activities Division of the Space Marines, the literal best. Its the job of these 13 dudes to take out dudes like the Harlequins, and that Eldrad survived (because well he is a main character and a badass) is a testament to his badassery.

Unfortunately this is part of the problem that GW has written themselves into: everything is the best. Depending on what codex/lore you read the writer has a bias towards that books protagonist. Space marines are the best soldiers the imperium has to offer, grey knights are better than that especially against daemons, deathwatch vs xenos. Eldrad is one of the best psykers in the universe, unless you read the chaos codex then it's Ahriman. Scions are the best the militarum can bring to bear but then you read Inquisitors codex and they pick some of the best scions as their own guard. Reading the Eldar codex the banshees are amazing melee fighters that can beat even the best IoM fighters thanks to their Eldar physiology and graceful moves but then read the Dark Eldar codex and even a lowly Wych is a great match or even better than a Banshee thanks to giving up any psychic tendencies and focusing all on martial prowess couple with performance enhancing drugs. Reading the Harlequin codex makes the troupes out to be almost impossible to fight thanks to their tricky holo technology and nimble moves coupled with eccentric styles to fight/dance.

It's a common theme amongst almost any of the GW lore that depending on the book you read and the intended protagonists of said book that they will always be portrayed as better than the other races/factions. Therein lies the problem that based on our personal biases based on our faction preferences we may be disappointed with how some other lore is written. In this case to an IoM fan the DW are indeed specialized xenos-hunting super-soldiers and almost no victory against a xenos race will seem to far-fetched. On the flipside as an Eldar fan one might think that the Harlequins, being an even more elite and mysterious faction of Eldar beyond even their craftworld brethren shouldn't succumb so easily to what they'd perceive as simply "yet another space marine faction".

It's all what side of the fence you're standing on that dictates what you think of your neighbours lawn I suppose.

Yay slaanesh wins!

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They aren't JUST Marines though, the Deathwatch are the best Alien Hunters the Adeptus Astartes produce, gathered together and trained to take on any threat. They are the CIA Special Activities Division of the Space Marines, the literal best. Its the job of these 13 dudes to take out dudes like the Harlequins, and that Eldrad survived (because well he is a main character and a badass) is a testament to his badassery.

And yet, it's completely at odds with every other portrayal of Harlequins vs Marines in the fluff, including a fight between Deathwatch and Harlequins in Atlas Infernal, where the former got utterly curbstomped by the latter to the point where it barely looked like a fight.

At rough number parity, Harlequins > any kind of marine. Including Custodes, apparently, given the events of Throneworld.

Now, am I saying the box set should have been a similar curbstomp in the Harlies' favour? No, that would be silly and would just be the same problem as the current box but going in the other direction - it's a box set designed to sell two armies, not just one, and having your brand new model marines get curbstomped in their box-set would be quite the foolish decision. But it should have actually been a fight. They should have made it a battle of clever tactics vs individual superiority, with deathwatch marines luring Harlequins into kill zones and such to gun them down, while any marine unfortunate enough to get caught in close combat with a Harlequin is done for. If they'd done this, and Artemis had nobody left alive on his team by the time he confronted Eldrad, that would have been a fair portrayal of the fight.

 Robin5t wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They aren't JUST Marines though, the Deathwatch are the best Alien Hunters the Adeptus Astartes produce, gathered together and trained to take on any threat. They are the CIA Special Activities Division of the Space Marines, the literal best. Its the job of these 13 dudes to take out dudes like the Harlequins, and that Eldrad survived (because well he is a main character and a badass) is a testament to his badassery.

And yet, it's completely at odds with every other portrayal of Harlequins vs Marines in the fluff, including a fight between Deathwatch and Harlequins in Atlas Infernal, where the former got utterly curbstomped by the latter to the point where it barely looked like a fight.

At rough number parity, Harlequins > any kind of marine. Including Custodes, apparently, given the events of Throneworld.

Now, am I saying the box set should have been a similar curbstomp in the Harlies' favour? No, that would be silly and would just be the same problem as the current box but going in the other direction - it's a box set designed to sell two armies, not just one, and having your brand new model marines get curbstomped in their box-set would be quite the foolish decision. But it should have actually been a fight. They should have made it a battle of clever tactics vs individual superiority, with deathwatch marines luring Harlequins into kill zones and such to gun them down, while any marine unfortunate enough to get caught in close combat with a Harlequin is done for. If they'd done this, and Artemis had nobody left alive on his team by the time he confronted Eldrad, that would have been a fair portrayal of the fight.

Well said Robin5t, have an exalt. It is a box designed to sell two armies and as such should present both in an equal light. Robins suggestion of how to write the scene is much more believable, builds more tension and doesn't just come across as "we love space marines so we're writing them into awesomeness". It's the same conclusion in the end but at least it gives a positive portrayal of both forces.