Death Masque Fluff - Spoilers

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**Crazyterran**

Inevitable_Faith wrote:
@locarno24: My apologies on my mistake above about Artemis. Admittedly I've never searched out DW novels or lore items as they aren't a faction that interests me so I didn't know he had been established prior to Death Masque.

@Ashiraya: I initially didn't care too much about the manner in which Vol'Jin died either. You are correct, he dropped his guard and it was exploited. The part that bothered me was later in that same video where Varian Wrynn died. It wasn't a simple slip in his guard that was exploited by random demon #477, it was much more than that. He single-handedly took out a fel reaver fought a bunch of demons until he was inevitably surrounded then turned into a pin cushion, brought to Gul'Dan (an established character made to be a credible threat) then Gul'Dan gave his speech and blew Wrynn into little Fel chunks. That was the point I felt cheated. You see while Vol'Jin's death was believable, it lacked any amount of energy or interesting points. Wrynn's death on the other hand was in a word: Epic. In my opinion the video made the Horde out to be a bunch of chumps who called the first retreat and made the Allince (vicariously through their king) seem like the badass warriors willing to risk it all and fight to save Azeroth. Ultimately it just felt like an unfair representation that favoured the Alliance.

Now this video was relevant to this discussion because this is what GW loves to do, especially with these boxed games. The IoM is always made to look like the good guys and are pre-written to win. This does the other factions no favours and does nothing to generate further interest in them. Who wants to play the NPC villains instead of the heroic defenders of the universe? Dungeon masters for Dungeons and Dragons I suppose but that's a different game.

As I've said the plasma shot was fine, in fact it would have been more believable that he couldn't deflect it and that he'd suffer a grievous wound but that's plot armour. To me it just felt that 13 marines was just too small of a force to go in and accomplish what they did. If it was 13 marines lead by a primarch? Then it would have been much more epic, we know the Primarchs to me great warriors and more than mere super-soldiers in their own right. Most Primarchs are written as one-man armies in their own right so any assault led by a Primarch feels much grander than many other characters could muster. While Artemis is not new, I've recently learned, he's still pretty small-fry compared to the bigger SM dudes like Marneus Calgar or Dante. It just doesn't feel good having one of the biggest and most prominent named characters of a faction you care about foiled by a minor character of a different faction.

The final resolution of the plot I agree with, Eldrad couldn't succeed, it would have been to much of a plot shift for the universe and I don't feel GW could handle that. I'm not surprised or disappointed in that.

To be fair, Voljin was not nearly a comparable character in terms of importance in both WoW lore and to the Horde as Varian was to the Alliance. Varian's death needed to be epic and badass, especially as many Alliance players feel like they've been cheated over the last few expansions (the story has been pretty much about the Horde in every expansion except Wrath of the Lich King), so a shift to build up the Alliance a bit is welcomed and necessary. And hell, the Legion expac is still taking away stuff from the Alliance - Dalaran is going neutral again, after the Alliance got it back in MoP.

Really, the only comparable Horde character to Varian is Thrall, who would also go out in some suitably epic way if it came down to it.

Yes, I know the Alliance 'won' the war in MoP, but all they really won was clearing out the evil Orcs in the Horde and some offscreen gains in Ashenvale/Felwood/maybe Gilneas, since they will never be bothered to phase in Alliance gains on screen.

WOD lets the Horde bring back Grom and Durotan whenever they please. Since, apparently, Grom's sins have all been forgiven. The Alliance have the prophetadin, Yrel, i guess? No where near the epic scale as the former two.

As for Ynnead and the Eldar, I'm sure we will see more Eldar campaigns down the line, that will let us see the full consequences for the Eldar, and if the dream of Ynnead is truly dead. He's right now in some kind of shattered, half birth state, with a large fragment of him out there somewhere.

As for the Eldar never winning, it took a quick look at the various Craftworlds on lexicanum and 40k wiki to show that's a pile of gak. Biel-tan singly handedly defeats two sector fleets and ten Space Marine chapters, even after Iyanden decides to not help them out. And that's just the first one I found!

**Anemone**

As an aside I'd prefer for this not to become a Warcraft conversation as well. Just me though.

@Crazyterran: Acting like there is any parity in the number of wins the Imperium has compared to the number of wins the Craftworld Eldar have is a pile of complete Gak.

Here's the hard statistic; of the 25 engagements the Imperium has with the Craftworld Eldar in the fluff the Imperium wins 18 and the Craftworld Eldar win 7. That's less than half.

You're arguing that because the Craftworld Eldar win 1 battle all of a sudden there is absolute parity between the tendency for victory between the two factions. If that is the case then you, in particular, can no longer complain about Imperium losses to the Tau since battles like Kvariam Alpha, Styx and Pallia are defeats for the Tau.

Honestly its absolutely ridiculous to argue against the fact that the Craftworld Eldar have an abysmal track record for victories and that the Imperium is ridiculously favoured in terms of victories.

More importantly, returning again, would you have been happy to accept Dante being defeated by Grotsnik?

EDIT: Additionally nothing you say changes or challenges any core points made here so far. The Craftworld Eldar are still consistently incapable of achieving any forms of substantial victories, the Imperium still consistently wins every single narrative campaign supplement and starter set, as well as major historical events, and Eldrad's defeat by a minor character is still something which would never be done to a Marine special character.

I don't even know what you're saying since you're argument seemed to simply be; "Information is forthcoming, and because the Craftworld Eldar won one battle there can never be any complaining or feeling aggrieved over the fact that they overwhelmingly lose," what does any of this mean?

**Ashiraya**

Anemone wrote:
Here's the hard statistic; of the 25 engagements the Imperium has with the Craftworld Eldar in the fluff the Imperium wins 18 and the Craftworld Eldar win 7. That's less than half.

Again, I do not see the problem. War is not fair. If you want a game that distributes victory according to the offscreen quota, you should find something less grimdark.

**Anemone**

@Ashiraya: I'll divide my response into two parts;

1) If you have that opinion about this game then it is fine for you to hold it. But at the same time Crazyterran was attempting to refute the idea that the Craftworld Eldar lose constantly, meaning he was implicitly accepting an argument that there should be parity already, otherwise there would be no point in arguing against the skewed win-loss ratio.

2) War is a million things which Warhammer 40k is not. It is not an accurate reflection of war, science, religion, politics, biology, phenomenons, military strategy or tactics.

It is a GAME.

It is a game created in which multiple different players invest, all equally worthwhile human beings, with the option to enjoy themselves in their game and invest within its story.

So they all have an equal right to desire it to be fun and enjoyable for them.

If your argument is that since 'War is unfair' (a nebulous point itself since what 'fair' is can be argued) certain factions can be treated in the fluff as losing constantly and be incapable of achieving anything then we simply do not understand what a GAME is in the same way at all.

All of this returns to parity in any case, no one would accept a similar outcome to Death Masque if it'd applied to the Imperium. No one ever engages with this point because that would be difficult.

**Crazyterran**

Anemone wrote:
As an aside I'd prefer for this not to become a Warcraft conversation as well. Just me though.

@Crazyterran: Acting like there is any parity in the number of wins the Imperium has compared to the number of wins the Craftworld Eldar have is a pile of complete Gak.

Here's the hard statistic; of the 25 engagements the Imperium has with the Craftworld Eldar in the fluff the Imperium wins 18 and the Craftworld Eldar win 7. That's less than half.

You're arguing that because the Craftworld Eldar win 1 battle all of a sudden there is absolute parity between the tendency for victory between the two factions. If that is the case then you, in particular, can no longer complain about Imperium losses to the Tau since battles like Kvariam Alpha, Styx and Pallia are defeats for the Tau.

Honestly its absolutely ridiculous to argue against the fact that the Craftworld Eldar have an abysmal track record for victories and that the Imperium is ridiculously favoured in terms of victories.

More importantly, returning again, would you have been happy to accept Dante being defeated by Grotsnik?

EDIT: Additionally nothing you say changes or challenges any core points made here so far. The Craftworld Eldar are still consistently incapable of achieving any forms of substantial victories, the Imperium still consistently wins every single narrative campaign supplement and starter set, as well as major historical events, and Eldrad's defeat by a minor character is still something which would never be done to a Marine special character.

I don't even know what you're saying since you're argument seemed to simply be; "Information is forthcoming, and because the Craftworld Eldar won one battle there can never be any complaining or feeling aggrieved over the fact that they overwhelmingly lose," what does any of this mean?

Considering it started off as 'the Eldar always lose to the Imperium' before it was edited away...

As mentioned above, war is not fair. The Eldar (Eldrad) have literally been one of the main causes for the fourty first Millenium being the dumpster fire that it is, so I'm not going to shed any tears if they get burned a lot for their hubris.

Sicarius gets beaten down by a no name Necron lord in the first battle for Damnos, Cassius by a random Carnifex, Lysander is captured by random Iron Warriors...

As for the battle I mentioned, im pretty sure none of the Imperial victories have equated to ten space marine chapters and a pair of sector fleets. That is a huge amount of resources that a single Craftworld smacked down.

How many victories have the Imperials scored if you take out no name Craftworlds that are literally mentioned once or twice for some Space Marine chapter to seem badass?

Edit: it's been a week and you are still whining? God damn.

**Redseer**

That's a depressing read... But I'm rather unsurprised. So I guess eldrad is dead... Again?

**Anemone**

@Crazyterran: This was never about the Craftworld Eldar 'always losing' this is about the fact that, indisputably, there is an enormous disparity in the ratio of win-loss for every faction other than the Imperium.

Your repetition of the 'war is not fair' argument doesn't need dealing with since I already discussed it at length above.

Now as for the defeats; Sicarius returns from his defeat by said Necron Lord to reclaim Damnos and kills a Transcendent C'tan so that's no comparison to Death Masque at all.

Cassius loses, sure, but he's a totally minor character so, again, no comparison to Death Masque.

Lysander is a terrible example since do you know what he achieves following that capture? That's more an achievement of his than anything else.

Seriously none of this comes close to comparing to Eldrad's inability, despite being the greatest living seer and among the greatest living psykers, to defeat a minor character with little fluff and almost no major achievements in a defeat so total it nearly wipes out the entire Craftworld Eldar faction.

Your arguments make so little rational sense, it feels like you just string along examples of non-comparable events in the hopes that linguistics will cause them to sound convincing.

Considering the Imperial victories have amounted to the destruction of in the vicinity of 4-5 whole Craftworlds, have involved Alaitoic's near destruction and the foiling of the forces of Iyanden, Biel-Tan, Ulthwe and Saim-Hann it is pretty clear that they've equated to said battle.

Also, again, you fail to use the fluff correctly. Biel-Tan is not stated to fight 10 whole Chapters, they fight elements of 10 whole Chapters.

Also I find this very ironic;

"How many victories have the Imperials scored if you take out no name Craftworlds that are literally mentioned once or twice for some Space Marine chapter to seem badass?"

I don't know...hey, wait a minute, if you remove Space Marine Chapters with no name which are literally mentioned once or twice just to make Biel-tan look badass then...the entire battle you're referring to vanishes. Congratulations, you've defeated your own point.

Now to return to a more serious answer; Iyanden, Biel-tan, Saim-Hann and Ulthwe are all defeated in these battles I mentioned (Ulthwe in particular I believe has three defeats to its name).

Can you name how many times the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Blood Angels have been defeated by Ulthwe, Biel-tan or Saim-hann?

Until you can actually use the data effectively and make a more coherent point I really don't see the point to respond to your personal and invective attacks.

**Benny Badmen**

.... I'm sitting here still brooding over how it all went down.

I think it's pretty clear there's a huge Imperium bias even if you argue all day long over victories and loses. You're basically recycling what you've already said hoping it'll sink in... But it won't.

A lot of First Founding Chapters have plot armor. So of course they won't lose, even mentioning a possible huge lose for them is heresy.

Eldar are well on their way to a squash fest, SPESSSS MAREEEENS are going to dismantle the remaining factions until it's them and Chaos, Primarchs will return to save the day, the end.

Edit: I should just get a job at GW for such brilliant insight.

**pm713**

Redseer wrote:
That's a depressing read... But I'm rather unsurprised. So I guess eldrad is dead... Again?

He's alive.

**IGtR=**

I think it is misleading to argue that Death Masque exists to sell two armies, it is to sell deathwatch first and foremost and the Harlequins are there to increase perceived value and probably to get rid of spare stock. This is clearly the start of a push towards something in the narrative, but the boxset seems to merely consist of an enemy for the harlequins to fight.

Put simply, how many people are going to buy this for thte Harlies and not the Deathwatch?

**Redseer**

pm713 wrote:
Redseer wrote:
That's a depressing read... But I'm rather unsurprised. So I guess eldrad is dead... Again?

He's alive.

Well, at least there's a plus. Thanks for tellin me. Albeit sounds like the Harlequin Deathjester character didn't make it. And i was so excited for a Harlequin character. :(

**HuskyWarhammer**

Going into this thread, I already wasn't a big fan of DM; GW had been teasing Eldar progression and the lack thereof, coupled with lack of new units/rules/etc. was ultra disappointing. So I didn't figure the story could be much worse, just more generic Spess Mehrenes doing what GW wills them to.

Apparently I was as wrong as Eldrad.

**Inevitable_Faith**

@Crazyterran: Last time I'll talk about WoW here, sorry I thought the comparison was worth making though. If we are the compare characters then would not Eldrad be more like Varian in importance instead of Vol'Jin? If that's the case then he deserved a suitably epic defeat.

I won't get into the larger fluff discussions because I haven't read everything out there concerning Eldar and Space Marine interactions however the point has been made that these box sets come with two armies and each army will go to a player (usually) and since both players are human and deserving of equal representation for their respective forces then I say for the box sets GW should put the effort into making both forces seem suitably badass. Leave the clear winners and losers for the Black Library fluff.

From a sales perspective it would be wise too since making armies other than the space marines also look powerful and badass can only help to generate interest in them and increase sales. Many of these box sets may be bought by new players and it doesn't help the xenos players enthusiasm for his army if he just reads that they got smacked around. Likely he may want to swap to being a marine player too and drop his xenos army.

Currently the status quo feels like:
1.Space marines sell well, obviously people like them...

2.Market the gak out of them, use them for every poster/advertisement/box set...

3.Sell more marines...

4. Repeat steps 1 to 3 ad infinitum

I have no problem with Marines being popular, they deserve it after all since they are really cool but I don't think it would hurt GW to market some of their other factions sometimes too.

**Robin5t**

Thing is, they keep promoting the Marines ahead of anyone else because Marines are popular, but the Marines are at least partially more popular because they keep getting promoted ahead of everyone else.

It's a self-perpetuating cycle of overly large pauldrons and dime-a-dozen characters.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Robin5t wrote:
Thing is, they keep promoting the Marines ahead of anyone else because Marines are popular, but the Marines are at least partially more popular because they keep getting promoted ahead of everyone else.

It's a self-perpetuating cycle of overly large pauldrons and dime-a-dozen characters.

This is true. Much as I don't think the Marine-bashing in here is that pleasant, I agree that they get an inordinate amount of attention which some of could be diverted to other races - in my eyes, Chaos (in the form of playable rules), Sisters (in terms of exposure) and xenos (in terms of lasting impact on the setting).

**Inevitable_Faith**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Robin5t wrote:
Thing is, they keep promoting the Marines ahead of anyone else because Marines are popular, but the Marines are at least partially more popular because they keep getting promoted ahead of everyone else.

It's a self-perpetuating cycle of overly large pauldrons and dime-a-dozen characters.

This is true. Much as I don't think the Marine-bashing in here is that pleasant, I agree that they get an inordinate amount of attention which some of could be diverted to other races - in my eyes, Chaos (in the form of playable rules), Sisters (in terms of exposure) and xenos (in terms of lasting impact on the setting).

Very well said Sgt_Smudge. Marine bashing won't make things any better and only serves to embitter the player-base. Instead if the other factions were supported and received more exposure more akin to the marine level then I think that's a great way to make more people happy and make for a much more rounded universe and player-base.

**Happyjew**

May i just point out that this whole thing (theoretically) has been set up by Cegorach.

Per Death Masque timeline, the Tome of Cegorach (which has been sealed since the Fall) has opened up, and the Masque of the Midnight Sorrow, performs a new interpretation of the Fall.

Per Codex: Harlequins, upon the Tome opening, the Shadowseers found a new Act that changes the tale of the Fall. One with a slender hope to change the fate of the Eldar. Known as Cegorach's ultimate jest, a way to trick Slaanesh into saving the Eldar.

Everything that happened? Just. As. Planned.

**Anemone**

@Happyjew: Always a possibility but I, personally, doubt it. The Harlequin Death Jester, who's providing Eldrad with the blessing of Cegorach necessary for the ritual to work, is described as sounding as 'despairing' when he appeals to Artemis. Clearly none of the Harlequins believe their plan is to fail and, additionally, the fluff seems to suggest Cegorach was, through the Death Jester, providing aide to Eldrad which was removed by Artemis and not part of the plan.

But we'll have to wait and see what the fallout is.

**Trystis**

Ynnead was viewed as the death of the Eldar (at least craftworld eldar). Cegorach's Ultimate Jest is different than the creation of Ynnead. Its goal is to cause Slaanesh to expend all of her power saving the Eldar, instead of destroying them.

Cegorach isn't a nice god. He is actually closer to a villain, like loki, than to a good guy. Its entirely possible that Ynnead getting stopped would be a part of his plan to save the Eldar. Especially considering that if Ynnead is created, while probably killing Slaanesh, would also likely be the end of Eldar. Ynnead being born seems mutually exclusive with Cegorach completing his Jest.

No one knows what part they specifically will play in his plan so any harlequin may believe that their part is vital, or that they must succeed, where as in reality the opposite could be true. They could be just a distraction, or it could be vital that they initiate something and then fail. Whose to say.

**Inevitable_Faith**

Cegorachs jest intrigues me, it could lead into something very interesting in the future.

Likewise the "jest" could be just that. Here's a prophecy that I'll half-tell, you guys have to fill in the blanks and figure the rest. So while craftworlders and Harlies alike scramble to decipher the prophecy and find out their place in it Cegorach sits back, cracks open a cold one and laughs to himself knowing the truth. There is no plan and he just made up the prophecy on a whim all so he could catch the the Eldar dance. I highly doubt this interpretation but it has a sense of cruel irony to it that I find appealing.

**Trystis**

Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Cegorachs jest intrigues me, it could lead into something very interesting in the future.

Likewise the "jest" could be just that. Here's a prophecy that I'll half-tell, you guys have to fill in the blanks and figure the rest. So while craftworlders and Harlies alike scramble to decipher the prophecy and find out their place in it Cegorach sits back, cracks open a cold one and laughs to himself knowing the truth. There is no plan and he just made up the prophecy on a whim all so he could catch the the Eldar dance. I highly doubt this interpretation but it has a sense of cruel irony to it that I find appealing.

Honestly, this is completely possible. I doubt this is the direction they'll go, but the potential is definitely there. Like I said Cegorach is not a nice God. For example not all of the masques have the same goals. The Masque of the Shattered Mirage believes the elder race is doomed and want to do as much damage to the rest of the galaxy as possible before they die off, they couldn't care less about chaos.

**Iracundus**

I continue to reserve judgement until further releases show where the fluff is going.

I would not take second hand information, particularly from /tg, as gospel particularly given how the original poster on /tg is apparently so full of hate for Xenos factions IRL that he was beside himself with glee as he believed Death Masque meant GW was scrapping the entire Eldar product line, and he was apparently eagerly awaiting the RL scrapping of Orks, Tau, and all other Xenos factions. Needless to say that is crazy talk and is tantamount to GW committing suicide. But hey, there are people out there unbalanced enough to think IRL that no player can honestly like a non-human faction.

**Lord Perversor**

The sad thing is that should GW had use another character like Iyanna Ariennal instead Eldrad pulling this stunt due her zeal and belief in Ynnead and detachment of reality as side effect of his time attached to the dead as Spiritseer would have made more sense.

Keeping the whole history as it is but just pointing that her followers convinced a large part of the Eldar souls within the infinity circuits to support her ritual instead the whole Eldar souls within all Craftworlds.

**Mr Morden**

Lord Perversor wrote:
The sad thing is that should GW had use another character like Iyanna Ariennal instead Eldrad pulling this stunt due her zeal and belief in Ynnead and detachment of reality as side effect of his time attached to the dead as Spiritseer would have made more sense.

Keeping the whole history as it is but just pointing that her followers convinced a large part of the Eldar souls within the infinity circuits to support her ritual instead the whole Eldar souls within all Craftworlds.

Agreed I guess they didn't fancy actually giving her a model and proper rules again .......another opportunity missed.

Does the fluff talk any more about the Deathwatch now apparently being completely independent operators and working with the Inquisition rather than for them as the new codex says?

**Blitzen the Solitaire**

Trystis wrote:
Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Cegorachs jest intrigues me, it could lead into something very interesting in the future.

Likewise the "jest" could be just that. Here's a prophecy that I'll half-tell, you guys have to fill in the blanks and figure the rest. So while craftworlders and Harlies alike scramble to decipher the prophecy and find out their place in it Cegorach sits back, cracks open a cold one and laughs to himself knowing the truth. There is no plan and he just made up the prophecy on a whim all so he could catch the the Eldar dance. I highly doubt this interpretation but it has a sense of cruel irony to it that I find appealing.

Honestly, this is completely possible. I doubt this is the direction they'll go, but the potential is definitely there. Like I said Cegorach is not a nice God. For example not all of the masques have the same goals. The Masque of the Shattered Mirage believes the elder race is doomed and want to do as much damage to the rest of the galaxy as possible before they die off, they couldn't care less about chaos.

I think the harlequins are way too precise for that. There's too many examples of them playing dumb the whole time but knew the ending all along. They wouldn't be laughing if they weren't in on the joke.
As for the masques, I thought they were made out to embody the roles they play in the performances. If they are performing the role of someone with that mentality(being doomed etc) they live it to its fullest. The Solitaire seems to be the best example of this. He lives the role that he plays

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not seeing a connection that Eldrads Plan is Cegorach's plan in its entirety, so I'm not the least bit worried about the Eldar surviving despite these events.

Cegorach will have the last laugh and I assure you it will be a performance like no other

**the_scotsman**

Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Trystis wrote:
Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Cegorachs jest intrigues me, it could lead into something very interesting in the future.

Likewise the "jest" could be just that. Here's a prophecy that I'll half-tell, you guys have to fill in the blanks and figure the rest. So while craftworlders and Harlies alike scramble to decipher the prophecy and find out their place in it Cegorach sits back, cracks open a cold one and laughs to himself knowing the truth. There is no plan and he just made up the prophecy on a whim all so he could catch the the Eldar dance. I highly doubt this interpretation but it has a sense of cruel irony to it that I find appealing.

Honestly, this is completely possible. I doubt this is the direction they'll go, but the potential is definitely there. Like I said Cegorach is not a nice God. For example not all of the masques have the same goals. The Masque of the Shattered Mirage believes the elder race is doomed and want to do as much damage to the rest of the galaxy as possible before they die off, they couldn't care less about chaos.

I think the harlequins are way too precise for that. There's too many examples of them playing dumb the whole time but knew the ending all along. They wouldn't be laughing if they weren't in on the joke.
As for the masques, I thought they were made out to embody the roles they play in the performances. If they are performing the role of someone with that mentality(being doomed etc) they live it to its fullest. The Solitaire seems to be the best example of this. He lives the role that he plays

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not seeing a connection that Eldrads Plan is Cegorach's plan in its entirety, so I'm not the least bit worried about the Eldar surviving despite these events.

Cegorach will have the last laugh and I assure you it will be a performance like no other

You may think so but they're still written by GW. And gosh darn are they going to magically morph into chaos cultist-level thugs guarding a mustache twirling baddie with his doomsday weapon when the spess muhrines need their daily ego stroke!

**Rihgu**

the_scotsman wrote:
Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Trystis wrote:
Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Cegorachs jest intrigues me, it could lead into something very interesting in the future.

Likewise the "jest" could be just that. Here's a prophecy that I'll half-tell, you guys have to fill in the blanks and figure the rest. So while craftworlders and Harlies alike scramble to decipher the prophecy and find out their place in it Cegorach sits back, cracks open a cold one and laughs to himself knowing the truth. There is no plan and he just made up the prophecy on a whim all so he could catch the the Eldar dance. I highly doubt this interpretation but it has a sense of cruel irony to it that I find appealing.

Honestly, this is completely possible. I doubt this is the direction they'll go, but the potential is definitely there. Like I said Cegorach is not a nice God. For example not all of the masques have the same goals. The Masque of the Shattered Mirage believes the elder race is doomed and want to do as much damage to the rest of the galaxy as possible before they die off, they couldn't care less about chaos.

I think the harlequins are way too precise for that. There's too many examples of them playing dumb the whole time but knew the ending all along. They wouldn't be laughing if they weren't in on the joke.
As for the masques, I thought they were made out to embody the roles they play in the performances. If they are performing the role of someone with that mentality(being doomed etc) they live it to its fullest. The Solitaire seems to be the best example of this. He lives the role that he plays

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not seeing a connection that Eldrads Plan is Cegorach's plan in its entirety, so I'm not the least bit worried about the Eldar surviving despite these events.

Cegorach will have the last laugh and I assure you it will be a performance like no other

You may think so but they're still written by GW. And gosh darn are they going to magically morph into chaos cultist-level thugs guarding a mustache twirling baddie with his doomsday weapon when the spess muhrines need their daily ego stroke!

The Deathwatch were portrayed as villains, with barely a coherent thought beyond "kill xenos".

I'm not sure if anybody really got jazzed up about how they were portrayed, even Deathwatch players. Reading the fluff was like reading the story of a group of Khorne Berserkers bearing down on some Eldar.

If it was a Space Marine ego stroke the Eldar would have been written much less sympathetically.

**SagesStone**

Ashiraya wrote:
Anemone wrote:
Here's the hard statistic; of the 25 engagements the Imperium has with the Craftworld Eldar in the fluff the Imperium wins 18 and the Craftworld Eldar win 7. That's less than half.

Again, I do not see the problem. War is not fair. If you want a game that distributes victory according to the offscreen quota, you should find something less grimdark.

Or look towards the space marines.

**Benny Badmen**

n0t_u wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Anemone wrote:
Here's the hard statistic; of the 25 engagements the Imperium has with the Craftworld Eldar in the fluff the Imperium wins 18 and the Craftworld Eldar win 7. That's less than half.

Again, I do not see the problem. War is not fair. If you want a game that distributes victory according to the offscreen quota, you should find something less grimdark.

Or look towards the space marines.

Oh shnap, shots fired!

This is not the place for those kind of comments. Lolz

**SagesStone**

Benny Badmen wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Anemone wrote:
Here's the hard statistic; of the 25 engagements the Imperium has with the Craftworld Eldar in the fluff the Imperium wins 18 and the Craftworld Eldar win 7. That's less than half.

Again, I do not see the problem. War is not fair. If you want a game that distributes victory according to the offscreen quota, you should find something less grimdark.

Or look towards the space marines.

Oh shnap, shots fired!

This is not the place for those kind of comments. Lolz

I couldn't resist, but yeah shouldn't start off a marine hate party either. I like the death watch the best out of them, but with these releases they're watering them down too much as well.

I agree that it should have probably been Iyanna, thought it would make sense and they even seemed to go to the effort of basically making one in one of the pictures for this.

Spoiler:

But yet again nothing seems to be coming from it. Interesting to see where Cegorath takes this, although the way this is I wouldn't be surprised if Cegorath turned out to just be Tzeentch with a clown mask now.