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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/27 20:54:22
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
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Because we are talking about radiation as if it is just some other wound and a dose capable of killing a normal human in 3 days is something that can viably be shrugged off.
oh no i'm totally with you on that. What i wrote would be the "least" i would expect, but considering the vast amounts of damage in my opinion a marine wouldnt survive such doses either. He might take longer to expire (so what kills a human in 3 days could maybe take 5-7 days). Especially the damage to the brain and hemorrhaging in internal organs can't simply be countered by some magic extra organ...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/27 21:07:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/27 20:59:47
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Keep wrote:They could survive a higher dose - simply because they have better immune system, better blood clotting etc. But since this is exactly what high doses of radiation destroy, it's just a matter of dose to bring down a marine the same way as a human.
A dose that could kill a human in 3 days could make marines significantly weaker (no "super blood clotting anymore", less endurance through less oxygen transport capability in blood, weakened immune system from decimation of white blood cells. Skin etc would still get burned the same.
Their auto-injector system might make them immune to the pain and illness side effects (vomiting, nausea, servere headaches), but the damage to the body can't be prevented.
So compared to humans they could still fight and would be less likely to just "pass out" or be combat ineffective.
but agreed, if you get to that level unprotected you are looking at Marine skulls exploding like popcorn.
exploding skulls? Did some B-movie impression stick with you?
I'm a writer, I embellish descriptions for dramatic effect to convey the point. Comes with the brain.
Also, I never actually said, that they were immune. As you say, its just a matter of dosage. All I'm saying is, based on what I understand of Astartes biology through 3 codexes and many many months-worth of time on Lexicanum, is that a littoe rad sickness isn't going to kill them, and with the advancements we've made now in dealing with rad poisoning, I find it hard to believe Astartes don't have a simple method to cure it, especially given the amount of radiation they must come across in their line of work. Once you curr the sickness Marine biology is resilient enough to be repaired either by themselves or by an Apothecary. At the very extreme case there's always a Dreadnought option.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/28 08:09:33
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
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Keep wrote:
oh no i'm totally with you on that. What i wrote would be the "least" i would expect, but considering the vast amounts of damage in my opinion a marine wouldnt survive such doses either. He might take longer to expire (so what kills a human in 3 days could maybe take 5-7 days). Especially the damage to the brain and hemorrhaging in internal organs can't simply be countered by some magic extra organ...
Ah, sorry about that. I did not read your post as an at least. My mistake.
Deadshot wrote:
Also, I never actually said, that they were immune. As you say, its just a matter of dosage. All I'm saying is, based on what I understand of Astartes biology through 3 codexes and many many months-worth of time on Lexicanum, is that a littoe rad sickness isn't going to kill them, and with the advancements we've made now in dealing with rad poisoning, I find it hard to believe Astartes don't have a simple method to cure it, especially given the amount of radiation they must come across in their line of work. Once you curr the sickness Marine biology is resilient enough to be repaired either by themselves or by an Apothecary. At the very extreme case there's always a Dreadnought option.
Unless their method of repairing their cells is somehow drastically different than the one a standard human possesses, I cannot see even the toughest of marines coming back from human level fatal ARS. Maybe they could take the surgery that would be needed to replace their disintegrating GI tract and other various internal organs, but then we get to the argument of exactly how much money and effort will go to fixing a broken marine? I get that dreadnoughts are this last resort thing, but doesn't the marine have to still be mostly functional to get stuck in one of those?
I think ARS also needs level designations so it is less nebulous to talk about.
Also, I will admit that my knowledge level on marines is a bit lacking (xenos player), so the questions are things i genuinely do not know.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/28 09:00:24
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Red_Ink_Cat wrote: Keep wrote:
oh no i'm totally with you on that. What i wrote would be the "least" i would expect, but considering the vast amounts of damage in my opinion a marine wouldnt survive such doses either. He might take longer to expire (so what kills a human in 3 days could maybe take 5-7 days). Especially the damage to the brain and hemorrhaging in internal organs can't simply be countered by some magic extra organ...
Ah, sorry about that. I did not read your post as an at least. My mistake.
Deadshot wrote:
Also, I never actually said, that they were immune. As you say, its just a matter of dosage. All I'm saying is, based on what I understand of Astartes biology through 3 codexes and many many months-worth of time on Lexicanum, is that a littoe rad sickness isn't going to kill them, and with the advancements we've made now in dealing with rad poisoning, I find it hard to believe Astartes don't have a simple method to cure it, especially given the amount of radiation they must come across in their line of work. Once you curr the sickness Marine biology is resilient enough to be repaired either by themselves or by an Apothecary. At the very extreme case there's always a Dreadnought option.
Unless their method of repairing their cells is somehow drastically different than the one a standard human possesses, I cannot see even the toughest of marines coming back from human level fatal ARS. Maybe they could take the surgery that would be needed to replace their disintegrating GI tract and other various internal organs, but then we get to the argument of exactly how much money and effort will go to fixing a broken marine? I get that dreadnoughts are this last resort thing, but doesn't the marine have to still be mostly functional to get stuck in one of those?
I think ARS also needs level designations so it is less nebulous to talk about.
Also, I will admit that my knowledge level on marines is a bit lacking (xenos player), so the questions are things i genuinely do not know.
Marines are pretty hefty investments to create in the first place, and they carry more battlefield experience than a whole squad of Guardsman, I say they'd be pretty keen to keep as many alive as possible. Chapters look after their brothers as well, if they have the tools to save him they'll use it. Given the ability we have today to cure rad sickness, I strong believe yhat it would be a common, over the counter drug in the 41st Millennium. I also find it pretty silly to have all the superhumans sent into highly dangerous warzones and planets if they didn't have some enhanced rad protection, even just their armour.
It was mentioned earlier about lead being used to block for radiation, and its used because its extremely dense metal. I am pretty certain that ceramite/plasteel blend is also extremely dense, as Marine armour is more like knight armour in that it deflects the blow rather than absorbing it like Kevlar.
Dreadnought fluff varies but not that much. Dreadnoughts, in my knowledge, are for individuals on the brink of death. Davian Thule of the Blood Ravens for example, was laid to waste by Tyranid toxins, and when they finally purged his system of the toxin he was never going to be able to wake from his induced coma, much less fight or lead a company. But he was dreadnoughtised.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/28 10:23:55
Subject: Re:Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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it's worth noting radiation isn't a single universal thing.
you get a suntan? that's radiation. a nuetron bomb? radiation.
differant degrees.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/29 00:12:03
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
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Given the ability we have today to cure rad sickness, I strong believe yhat it would be a common, over the counter drug in the 41st Millennium
Acute radiation sickness is not an illness that can be treated by a simple drug. It is the result of a culmination of effects from the death/damage of all kinds of the cells in the body.
The part about "todays technology" is completely irrelevant. This is 40k. Unless the technology/knowledge was retained through the ages, which is not a given, it would be lost and unlikely to be rediscovered. IoM does pseudo science at best.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/29 11:05:52
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
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Deadshot wrote:Given the ability we have today to cure rad sickness, I strong believe yhat it would be a common, over the counter drug in the 41st Millennium. I also find it pretty silly to have all the superhumans sent into highly dangerous warzones and planets if they didn't have some enhanced rad protection, even just their armour.
I highly doubt there would ever be invented an OTC medicine that could cure ARS that would at all advance the way we treat it. Currently, the only methods of treating advanced ARS (disintegrating GI tract, neurological damage, blood damge, bone marrow damage) is to replace the damaged things. Not because what-have-you is just extensively damaged (which in most cases it already is) but because it literally has less, if not no, ability to fix itself (hence disintegrating). Radiation damages the cells' ability to properly replicate, meaning it actually inhibits or stops the body's healing process. And I do not think anything beyond magic shenanigans is going to fix that.
Writers' crutch of invincibility aside.
Deadshot wrote:It was mentioned earlier about lead being used to block for radiation, and its used because its extremely dense metal. I am pretty certain that ceramite/plasteel blend is also extremely dense, as Marine armour is more like knight armour in that it deflects the blow rather than absorbing it like Kevlar.
Depends on the density of the material and the type of radiation in question.
Generally 2 inches of lead is needed to reduce beta-gamma radiation to a tenth of its unshielded value. Assuming ceramite/plasteel does as well as lead does (which it would not, because we are talking dense as in atomic tight-packing, large atomic nucleus, and large number of electrons, not as in heavy), we would be getting into some silly thick armor just to overcome measley sources, much less walking through nuclear bomb epicenters and clouds.
And terminators have to deal with neutron radiation, which requires dual shielding feet thick to accomplish because unlike gamma, neutrons need to bounce off atoms similar in size before they can be stopped (if not, then we split the bigger atoms and making bad things happen). This is best accomplished with feet of cold liquid water. Not lead, lead is basically useless.
But again, writers' crutch of "oh, but it does that because I say so" aside.
Deadshot wrote:Dreadnought fluff varies but not that much. Dreadnoughts, in my knowledge, are for individuals on the brink of death. Davian Thule of the Blood Ravens for example, was laid to waste by Tyranid toxins, and when they finally purged his system of the toxin he was never going to be able to wake from his induced coma, much less fight or lead a company. But he was dreadnoughtised.
That's... vague.
Agreed. And this is why this thread will go 'round and 'round and get nowhere.
I think I'm starting to repeat myself anyway, so goodnight everybody, I've run enough circles at this point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/29 11:18:22
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Red_Ink_Cat wrote:Deadshot wrote:Given the ability we have today to cure rad sickness, I strong believe yhat it would be a common, over the counter drug in the 41st Millennium. I also find it pretty silly to have all the superhumans sent into highly dangerous warzones and planets if they didn't have some enhanced rad protection, even just their armour.
I highly doubt there would ever be invented an OTC medicine that could cure ARS that would at all advance the way we treat it. Currently, the only methods of treating advanced ARS (disintegrating GI tract, neurological damage, blood damge, bone marrow damage) is to replace the damaged things. Not because what-have-you is just extensively damaged (which in most cases it already is) but because it literally has less, if not no, ability to fix itself (hence disintegrating). Radiation damages the cells' ability to properly replicate, meaning it actually inhibits or stops the body's healing process. And I do not think anything beyond magic shenanigans is going to fix that.
Writers' crutch of invincibility aside.
Deadshot wrote:It was mentioned earlier about lead being used to block for radiation, and its used because its extremely dense metal. I am pretty certain that ceramite/plasteel blend is also extremely dense, as Marine armour is more like knight armour in that it deflects the blow rather than absorbing it like Kevlar.
Depends on the density of the material and the type of radiation in question.
Generally 2 inches of lead is needed to reduce beta-gamma radiation to a tenth of its unshielded value. Assuming ceramite/plasteel does as well as lead does (which it would not, because we are talking dense as in atomic tight-packing, large atomic nucleus, and large number of electrons, not as in heavy), we would be getting into some silly thick armor just to overcome measley sources, much less walking through nuclear bomb epicenters and clouds.
And terminators have to deal with neutron radiation, which requires dual shielding feet thick to accomplish because unlike gamma, neutrons need to bounce off atoms similar in size before they can be stopped (if not, then we split the bigger atoms and making bad things happen). This is best accomplished with feet of cold liquid water. Not lead, lead is basically useless.
But again, writers' crutch of "oh, but it does that because I say so" aside.
Deadshot wrote:Dreadnought fluff varies but not that much. Dreadnoughts, in my knowledge, are for individuals on the brink of death. Davian Thule of the Blood Ravens for example, was laid to waste by Tyranid toxins, and when they finally purged his system of the toxin he was never going to be able to wake from his induced coma, much less fight or lead a company. But he was dreadnoughtised.
That's... vague.
Agreed. And this is why this thread will go 'round and 'round and get nowhere.
I think I'm starting to repeat myself anyway, so goodnight everybody, I've run enough circles at this point.
I'm working at the moment so just addressing the top point: With the Imperium and particular Space Marines being able to grow organs and other biological components in a jar from cloned genetic material, is it so hard to imagine they could just regularly replace the damaged organs with clones of the original that they have on hand? Bone marrow transplant seems like it would be a simple procedure to them, as would blood transfusions. I admit I'm not quite sure what the GI tract is so there could be that.
Will address rest later
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/29 20:29:16
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
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I'm working at the moment so just addressing the top point: With the Imperium and particular Space Marines being able to grow organs and other biological components in a jar from cloned genetic material, is it so hard to imagine they could just regularly replace the damaged organs with clones of the original that they have on hand? Bone marrow transplant seems like it would be a simple procedure to them, as would blood transfusions. I admit I'm not quite sure what the GI tract is so there could be that.
Transplanting marine organs is never "simple". Alot of the recipients die by a variety of causes. And that is without their immune system almost completely shattered from rad damage. In addition, the knowledge for cloning of marine organs is also very old, so it's not guaranteed that they know how to do it universally (that means that they understand it and can do it without following religion-like rituals ). Also, it hasn't been mentioned wether they can clone every part of the human body (brains?), or just the specific organs they "supplement" their marines with.
No matter what - there will still be doses that do not kill them outright and yet cause their death after some time. And those doses wouldn't be that much higher than for regular humans. Ionising radiation is the enemy of all biologic life as we know it for a reason.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/29 20:35:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/29 20:38:42
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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Keep wrote:I'm working at the moment so just addressing the top point: With the Imperium and particular Space Marines being able to grow organs and other biological components in a jar from cloned genetic material, is it so hard to imagine they could just regularly replace the damaged organs with clones of the original that they have on hand? Bone marrow transplant seems like it would be a simple procedure to them, as would blood transfusions. I admit I'm not quite sure what the GI tract is so there could be that.
Transplanting marine organs is never "simple". Alot of the recipients die by a variety of causes. And that is without their immune system almost completely shattered from rad damage. In addition, the knowledge for cloning of marine organs is also very old, so it's not guaranteed that they know how to do it universally (that means that they understand it and can do it without following religion-like rituals ). Also, it hasn't been mentioned wether they can clone every part of the human body (brains?), or just the specific organs they "supplement" their marines with.
No matter what - there will still be doses that do not kill them outright and yet cause their death after some time. And those doses wouldn't be that much higher than for regular humans. Ionising radiation is the enemy of all biologic life as we know it for a reason.
In the case of marines in destroyer squads during the great crusade/heresy, I believe they use to replace infected/cancerous organs with bionic ones, or part bionic/part biological anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/30 18:43:47
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
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Read Kharn: Eater of Worlds, there is a destroyer marine in that who knows he is dying from the effects of continuous exposure to the weapons used by destroyer squads.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/08/30 20:00:20
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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The only thing drugs could do that I can imagine in the case of ARS is reduce the signs and symptoms. In other words, make you more comfortable before you die. Now nanotechnology, might be able to assist in repairs with lower dosage, but a high dosage is a death sentence through and through.
And a fun little fact about gamma radiation (I didn't see this mentioned and if someone said it but I missed it, I apologize). Nothing stops it except loss of energy. In a nuclear lab I had the fortune of visiting, they demonstrated this by having a Geiger counter pointing at some cobalt 60. No matter how many lead, hafnium, etc. sheets they put over the cobalt 60 the Geiger counter kept ticking, just a bit more slowly with each sheet. And of course, radiation corrodes. That's why they will constantly have to place new shielding around Chernobyl's infamous reactor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/02 19:58:43
Subject: Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Sister Vastly Superior
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Red_Ink_Cat wrote:Deadshot wrote:It was mentioned earlier about lead being used to block for radiation, and its used because its extremely dense metal. I am pretty certain that ceramite/plasteel blend is also extremely dense, as Marine armour is more like knight armour in that it deflects the blow rather than absorbing it like Kevlar.
Depends on the density of the material and the type of radiation in question.
Generally 2 inches of lead is needed to reduce beta-gamma radiation to a tenth of its unshielded value. Assuming ceramite/plasteel does as well as lead does (which it would not, because we are talking dense as in atomic tight-packing, large atomic nucleus, and large number of electrons, not as in heavy), we would be getting into some silly thick armor just to overcome measley sources, much less walking through nuclear bomb epicenters and clouds.
And terminators have to deal with neutron radiation, which requires dual shielding feet thick to accomplish because unlike gamma, neutrons need to bounce off atoms similar in size before they can be stopped (if not, then we split the bigger atoms and making bad things happen). This is best accomplished with feet of cold liquid water. Not lead, lead is basically useless.
But again, writers' crutch of "oh, but it does that because I say so" aside.
I don't know, having the terminator armour experience a fission reaction when exposed to a space hulk's reactor would be a quick way of clearing it of any genestealers that may be hiding aboard (though the stealers themselves would be long dead from radiation exposure).
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Still waiting for Godot. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/05 18:46:27
Subject: Re:Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Courageous Silver Helm
Freezing to death outside the Fang
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I know calth has been mentioned but has anyone mentioned isstvan III, cause I'm fairly sure that it wasn't just virus bombs that were used on the loyalists there.
Also don't some of the legions use radiation based weaponry during the heresy?
So as has probably been said already low levels in the environment won't kill them and their armour and glands will absorb most radiation but I should think that concentrated levels of radiation bombarding them would be potentially fatal.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/07 15:28:02
Subject: Re:Space Marines - Effect of Radiation
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Stormin' Stompa
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I don't know if it has been discussed yet, but their are biological mechanisms for fighting the effects of radiation. A more robust immune system could better destroy mutated or damaged cells and higher concentrations of antioxidants in the blood can help counteract ionizing radiation. High level exposure will still kill such organisms but will be more survivable in environments with low level radiation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/08 01:58:47
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