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So this kind of justification keeps turning up: "I just want to change X." It's stated as if the visual concept of the Sororitas is a pile of non-interactive pieces simply placed next to each other. What should be done with Sisters' boobs? What should be done with Sisters' hair? As if each body part has it's own dedicated design committee. No, the design is a unified thing. It works because all the elements work together. "Just change X" sounds to me like an individual hobbyist's personal conversion project rather than an improvement on a product line.

Except, that is NOT true. Particularly in this case, where Sisters already have alternate heads.

Initial release was natural color hair or Sallet helm.

Others are in hoods (Penitent Engine pilot), or shaved (C:WH Repentia).

Making the C:WH shaved head available, along with the RT-style wimple is consistent with the SOB design elements already presented and shown in canon artwork by GW.

To act as if this is some kind of shocking change is ridiculous.

I think the SoB when redone should have a greater variety of heads, on a level similar to the Tempestus Scion models.

In an update such extra heads would better allow for the representation of different orders of sisters, or to just add another layer of visible distinction between unit types, or just to add greater aesthetic variation... All are positive.

As for boob armor, it should be as prominent as it is on female eldar. Some hate female boob armor on SoB for not being realistic, I'd be indifferent except for the fact that fictionally there is an improtance to the ecclesiarchy that everyone knows that they are women and as such even if it's just ornamental it is something central to representing their distinctiveness.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
So little of the SoB range would survive a full shift to plastic I could see GW throw the rest out in favor of a complete overhaul of the aesthetic.

All of the armored Sisters would survive as multi-part models. The Immolator / Exorcist 2-in-1 is easy enough.

I think it's just the Repentia at become a problem, but it's not like the metals can't carry on.

What I mean is that with the Immolators having been the only plastic kit... If SoB see even a modest alteration to their design it's likely even the Immolator would get redone. At which point they could more drastically change the aesthetic across the whole line and it'd have a minimal impact on the amount of work they'd have to do.

I don't think Repentia would be too challenging for GW to do in plastic... If you look at some of the fantasy dark elves and dark eldar it's very apparent GW could reproduce them pretty closely to the current models but in plastic.

The design in question is the rank and file militant Sister. They come with bobs or, logically, with bobs under helmets. Repentia (including any strapped into a Penitent Engine) are irrelevant to this point as they shave their heads as part of penance (per Christian tradition/imagery). Actually, armored Sisters with shaven heads is specifically inconsistent with canon depictions; a shaven head already means something specific in the visual vocabulary of the faction.

I'm not prescribing any particular style of head just the need for more variety. You obviously disagree with JohnHwangDD, but he has presented styles of heads that exist within the range and while they might not be suitable they do show that there is within the range inspiration for greater diversity of head styles.

I think some sort of hood or cowl option would fit their aesthetic and be consistent with the visual themes.

Religious orders traditionally have fairly uniform standards of dress, not unlike (modern) militaries so there is a definite limit on variation here. Logically, there would be about as much room for variety as a there would be for a strictly Codex-adherent SM chapter: so maybe some Sister heads depicting scars or augments

Exactly.

@Manchu - nobody would force you to use the non-bob heads if you didn't want them. I would gladly take them off your hands..

I think having a variety in heads in that you are not forced to use duplicates of exactly the same piece is good, but I think uniformity in the hairstyle is characterful. This is an extremely dogmatic religious order. Individual expression would not be encouraged in any way.

I hope they do something with the boobs, like go uni-boob with a giant fleur-de-lis over the chest or something. The french bra look carries with it some serious groan factor.

Other than that, I think Sisters already have a very well designed look, and I hope they don't change it too much.

Assuming they actually do anything with the line at all lol.

Pouncey wrote:I still wish someone would finally explain to me what a "wimple" is, because I don't know.

Canoness wearing a wimple. There is an image of a Canoness wearing one in the 2nd Edition Codex, smiting heretics with power maul and bolter, but I can't find it online, and this is a nice image, so there we go.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Sisters aren't really like nuns, in the sense that beside being an organization of religious women, they don't have much in common with nuns. Especially, nuns are similar to monks, with asceticism being a virtue (in 40k, that's Dark Angels and their robes and lack of bling), while Sisters are more akin to high-level priests that showers themselves in ostentatious wealth (see: the Vatican officials).

Well, they are; there are several bits of background that show Sisters of Battle wearing uncomfortable clothing, and one short story in particular that has a Canoness using a pen studded with spikes to cause her suffering (as the Emperor suffered). Ever since they were first released in the late 1990s one of the key pillars of their background is that they are nuns. They belong to a series of religious orders, hold services of worship, and fight the enemies of the God-Emperor. Just because they aren't exactly the same as Christian nuns (which isn't surprising!) doesn't make them anything other than nuns.

Weboflies wrote:I think having a variety in heads in that you are not forced to use duplicates of exactly the same piece is good, but I think uniformity in the hairstyle is characterful. This is an extremely dogmatic religious order. Individual expression would not be encouraged in any way.

Which is absolutely right - in Faith and Fire and also Hammer and Anvil Miriya constantly comes under criticism and censure for behaving in a manner that isn't quite dogmatically correct. Of course, this enables her to save the day, but that's not really the point.

I like this concept art.

 Pouncey wrote:
Alternate heads? That hasn't been my impression of what you've been arguing for. You seemed to very strongly believe that Sisters of Battle would look better if they all had buzzcuts

I like the bobcut and I wish it stays an option. However, I would love to have the option to go full helmet on everyone (because it looks SO GOOD), and having also the option for some shaved head would be good, I guess. I really don't like the wimple which I feel don't integrate well visually with the rest, and makes them look like something they are not (i.e. Christian nuns). If the option is present I certainly won't use it, and I wouldn't be happy if it is mandatory on the models.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
Well, they are; there are several bits of background that show Sisters of Battle wearing uncomfortable clothing, and one short story in particular that has a Canoness using a pen studded with spikes to cause her suffering (as the Emperor suffered).

That's penance. But really Sisters don't seem to hold vows of humility or poverty…

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
Just because they aren't exactly the same as Christian nuns (which isn't surprising!) doesn't make them anything other than nuns.

Well, the wimple is very much a Christian nun thing.

I remember reading a source (I believe it was the RPGs?) which implied that the helmet was a mark of a veteran.

Certainly it'd be nice to have a triple choice of wimple, bob and helm.

The artwork was used as concept art for an Inquisitor character - who (despite the armour) was supposed to be a repentia.

locarno24 wrote:
I remember reading a source (I believe it was the RPGs?) which implied that the helmet was a mark of a veteran.

I think the first printed codex had veteran helmets having extra bling.

Power armor is sealed all environment armor. If you don't have a helmet, you restrict its use to nice, safe atmospheres with no NBC warfare going on.

SoB come with bare faces so they look more individual, not because they don't let the newbies wear helmets.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I really don't like the wimple which I feel don't integrate well visually with the rest, and makes them look like something they are not (i.e. Christian nuns). If the option is present I certainly won't use it, and I wouldn't be happy if it is mandatory on the models.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
Well, they are; there are several bits of background that show Sisters of Battle wearing uncomfortable clothing, and one short story in particular that has a Canoness using a pen studded with spikes to cause her suffering (as the Emperor suffered).

That's penance. But really Sisters don't seem to hold vows of humility or poverty…

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
Just because they aren't exactly the same as Christian nuns (which isn't surprising!) doesn't make them anything other than nuns.

Well, the wimple is very much a Christian nun thing.

I'm not mandating a head change, and I don't know where Pouncey got the idea that anyone was mandating an all new, all different look for Sisters. With the breadth of the Imperium, and the age of the Sisters, the idea that there wouldn't be any variation is very strange. Particularly as the artwork and models themselves demonstrate a level of variety that is not unreasonable. Also, WRT the wimple specifically, GW has already sculpted a version wearing one:

Note that she is also wearing a different version of the armor, along with completely different skirting vs the sleeve & tabard thing we see on Battle Sisters. This may be due to being a non-Militant Order, or it could be personal preference.

The spiked pen thing is not penance per se, as the Canoness is obviously not a penitent of some sort. It's a hair shirt to denote additional piety. And it's yet another BDSM fetish reference that is part and parcel of the Sisters concept.

The Sisters are very clearly concepted from Catholic nuns, using the whole sister / convent language, along with their original artwork:

While they aren't exactly Christian nuns, they are the 40k equivalent. And their first depiction is clearly wearing a Catholic wimple. BTW, who wants nipple spikes to come back?

Just a heads-up, the "Sisters of Silence" feature heavily in the latest "Beast Arises" novel called "Watchers in Death".

And there seems to be a bit of proto-Sisters of Battle armor design in there.

I think we can drop the references to Sister Sin. That is an example of a failed design.

RE: wimples & other nunnery

Like most garments now associated with religion, the wimple did not begin as part of the habit. Rather, it is a holdover from an earlier period of secular dress; namely, a cloth worn by married women to cover their hair. Although celibate, women religious have a long tradition of referring to themselves as brides of Christ. Wearing the wimple was an affectation of that metaphor. Retaining it, inverting a symbol of marriage into one of chastity, after the garment went out of style among women generally is down to the conservatism seemingly inherent to religious orders.

While their use of the wimple is ambiguous, it is very clear that Sisters of Battle have a dominant tradition of NOT covering their hair. To the contrary, they incorporate a specific hairstyle as a notable aspect of their "habit." So while the wimple could be rationalized as holdover from their days as "Brides of the Emperor," using the same kind of logic as real-world wimples, it is more likely the product of lazy/unimaginate borrowing from Christian imagery (in contrast to the striking, novel snow-white bobs).

Christians nuns are no doubt an inspiration for the Sisters of Battle. But I think the iconic SOB look relies not so much on that but rather on contrasting that image of prudishness with somewhat kinky sex appeal (JohnHwangDD is right to point out the BDSM influences here; the studio was cheeky in its heyday). Even the beautiful Sister Hospitaller figure wearing the wimple is extraordinarily feminine (her head covering creates the illusion of gorgeous flowing hair); she is certainly not at all frumpy. It pays to remember that SoB are not necessarily terrified of their feminine sexuality, perhaps unlike some people in the real world.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm not mandating a head change

I didn't get that impression, I was just saying I don't really like this look and I am not interested in having it in my miniatures:

Ofc ymmv.

Me, either.

And practically speaking, bobs/helmets are really good for plastic miniatures, unlike long hair or a wimple that drapes down over the shoulders and down the back.

A wimple is certainly something that lends itself more to a character or other monopose model .

 Manchu wrote:
I think we can drop the references to Sister Sin. That is an example of a failed design.

Thing is, GW have a history of resurrecting old designs and repurposing them or redesigning them - see, for example, the Contemptor Dreadnought.

That makes three pieces of old GW-related artwork that include some sort of wimple (Sister Sin, the Hospitaller and the last image from Dark Heresy). I could totally see them including an option for a wimple head, maybe as a sergeant choice.

If GW were to release plastic sisters as a full new army a la Dark Eldar, I'd expect the following, mostly based on their current business practises:

- Some sort of armour redesign, with it mostly staying the same in style but maybe losing the separated boobs and the corset look. If anything, just for PR reasons when they print giant posters of SoBs and hang them in their store windows.

- Multiple head options, just like a lot of the other recent plastic kits. Bobs, helmets, some bald cybernetic ones, Sister Superior wimples, lots of options. Heads are the easiest thing to fit on the sprue to give buyers lots of options.

- Repentias having a total redesign, or being dropped altogether. I doubt naked bondage women pushed forward by whips is what GW want to be seen to be pushing to kiddies nowadays, so if they remain I could totally see them in sackcloth or penitents robes, with tonsured or shaved haircuts. Or making 'penitents' a type of imperial citizenry rather than naked sisters, so you have guys and girls all trying to atone through death in battle.

- Again for PR reasons I could see them releasing male and female priests and confessors. So we don't have GWs only female army led by three powerful guys. I could also see the return of Frateris Militia.

- Plastic penitent engine that would have to double as something else too.

- New flyer, probably not a plastic Avenger but something new and not as cool-looking, since copying FW kits in plastic isn't very common at the mo.

If they release them as a quick Deathwatch-style release then all of the above, but no Repentias or Penitent Engines, and I imagine the basic sister sprue would allow you options for enough special and heavy weapons spare that, after buying a few boxes, you could assemble Dominion and Retributor squads.

Please note, I'm not going to draw up some sort of concept sketch - I'm not submitting my ideas for approval by the Dakka Sisters Fanclub Judgement Panel - I'm trying to steer the topic on course by suggesting what GW might actually do if they wanted to rerelease plastic sisters.

If any of the above contradicts current fluff, they'll just change it. It's also kinda irrelevant if the current Sisters player like what they do - if they did a total redesign and it looked cool enough that lots of new people started playing (buying) Sisters armies, then it would be a great success, even if every current Sisters player hated it, and opted to remain with their current metals.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Thing is, GW have a history of resurrecting old designs and repurposing them or redesigning them

This apparently already happened with Sister Sin, who seems to have been rehabilitated as the Sister Hospitaller. She kept the wimple and gasmask - she lost the SM PA with spiked-nipple boobplate.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
It's also kinda irrelevant if the current Sisters player like what they do

Obviously. Pissing off a number of existing customers (who are not as valuable as new customers) that was always small and has probably been dwindling is not what makes radically redesigning Sisters moronic. It would be moronic because GW's most valuable asset is brand and Sisters currently have a very iconic image that is not likely to be improved as a matter of design.

Honestly, Sisters are rather obscure. I have been part of two separate gaming communities and very few in either knew about Sisters of Battle at all (one amusingly said 'those female Marines, right?')

The Dakka community is not entirely representative in this regard; those dedicated enough to be maintaining an account on a Warhammer website are more likely to also be invested enough to know even more obscured elements.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Honestly, Sisters are rather obscure. I have been part of two separate gaming communities and very few in either knew about Sisters of Battle at all (one amusingly said 'those female Marines, right?')

The Dakka community is not entirely representative in this regard; those dedicated enough to be maintaining an account on a Warhammer website are more likely to also be invested enough to know even more obscured elements.

Fair enough - but how many of them were conversant with Genestealer Cultists or Skitarii until recently?

Sisters of Battle frequently appear in Black Library novels - even recent ones - often well done - impressed with their depiciton in Imperial Creed - they took centre stage in Shield of Baal - narrative and imagery wise.

Yet still no rules, no models - frankly its wierd. Why bother with them in Shield of Baal, spend time and effort and money - especially the new commisioned images and then totally and completely ignore them...........?

Another example of how GW sabotages this faction - even if you regularly play at your LGS or even a Warhammer store you will probably only see Sisters if someone brings in their SoB army.

But let's keep in mind that everything about 40k is obscure compared to other IPs in this genre - I reckon most people know about 40k thanks to licensed video games. Sisters featured in DoW; hopefully they will be featured in more titles, including (an expansion to) the upcoming DoW game.

 Manchu wrote:

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Thing is, GW have a history of resurrecting old designs and repurposing them or redesigning them

This apparently already happened with Sister Sin, who seems to have been rehabilitated as the Sister Hospitaller. She kept the wimple and gasmask - she lost the SM PA with spiked-nipple boobplate.

Sister Sin is the proto-Battle Sister, clearly from the Orders Militant. She's bulky in a "Big Bessie" kind of way, clearly wearing powered armor with the backpack. Oh yeah, she's armed with a Bolter, the standard SoB weapon...

The Hospitalier is a Medic, of a non-Militant Order and "extraordinary feminine", as you put it. No backpack, and a mask that is intended to be more reference to a surgical mask / HEPA filter than rebreather. Her hands are free, and she's fitted with medical kit akin to that of a SM Apothecary, but no ranged weapons whatsoever. Not even the obligatory 2E sidearm.

Sorry, but it's not even close.

No need to be so literal. You have a Sister with a wimple and gasmask in RT. Later on, a sister with a wimple and gasmask shows up as a miniature. Sister Sin was no more but her legacy lived on, in a small way.

If that's the case, then the bobs don't matter either...

You lost me - all I meant was, it looks like someone had the awful Sister Sin drawing in mind when they designed the Sister Hospitaller.

No, I understand you, I just completely disagree.

I guess this is the part that I don't get:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If that's the case, then the bobs don't matter either...

Why would the designer of the Sister Hospitaller fig having pulled elements from the Sister Sin drawing mean that the bobs don't matter?