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Lore reason is identical to meta reasons all the time. The Horus Heresy exists because GW didn't want to make different sculpts in the original Adeptus Titanicus box, so they used the civil war excuse to have both sides using the same models.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Agreed. I am likely allowing my personal favoritism towards Tau to interfere with other's preferences. Eldar can be excused (possibly!) because likely the Old Ones got lazy and made humans and Eldar share some features. That's pretty much the only reason I can think of for them having enlarged breasts like humans.

So literally, "the creators made them look alike because they didn't want to come up with an original design for everything."

I'm not sure whether to be upset or happy that the lore reason is identical to the meta reason... I'm very confused.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
While it's true that men are generally stronger, it means much less when combat is based on guns rather than clubbing each other. In a world with advanced technology, I'll take intelligence, discipline and professionalism over mere physical might any day.

Amusingly enough, if the Israeli are to be believed, their world-unique all-female combat unit actually performs better in terms of marksmanship than their men do.

Something about less of a 'I totally got this, guys' mindset and instead actually listening to the instructors.

Male or female, you can fire a lasgun either way and you are blown apart by a bolt either way, so differences are superficial.

Except strength does matter, in any and every situation. Cultists get into the trenches? Rusty cleaver to your throat? Some way you've got to get out of that.

Are you suggesting that a woman trained for war cannot kill a man trained for war?

If you're suggesting that the male cultist would have an advantage over a female Guardswoman, yes, that's true. But there are also female Cultists too and often they'd be going up in melee against male Guardsmen.

Not that she cannot, there is far too many variables to give it a flat yes or no, but a man will always be stronger than a woman if they both get the same training. Whether it be man or woman, cultist, or guardsmen.

 Selym wrote:
Bewbs and a handy-j will do for some of them.

Draw me like one of your titanicus girls!

Oh my, how lewd :3

 Selym wrote:
Bewbs and a handy-j will do for some of them.

Draw me like one of your titanicus girls!

Flak Armor now comes with a chest zipper, for all your lewd distraction needs.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Bewbs and a handy-j will do for some of them.

Draw me like one of your titanicus girls!

Flak Armor now comes with a chest zipper, for all your lewd distraction needs.

Aye yi yi. That's worse than the female commissar models.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Not that she cannot, there is far too many variables to give it a flat yes or no, but a man will always be stronger than a woman if they both get the same training, whether it be man or woman, cultist, or guardsmen.

And those Cultists probably have a higher percentage of female humans than the IG do on the battlefield since the IG overall prefer either recruiting men or sending the men they do have into battle while having the female Guardswomen guard things, while Chaos doesn't give a feth one way or another about its cultists. And if you're going up against daemons, there is no physical advantage a male Guardsman can have against them. Astartes? IG are gonna get wrecked whether they're male or female, makes no difference. Tau prefer to shoot things and hate melee in its entirety, and a human woman would kill a Tau in melee as easily as a human man. Eldar melee units are going to full-on annihilate Guardsmen as they're generally composed of Aspect Warriors. Guardians are probably still going to kill an average unit of humans, male or female, due to Eldar being taller and having similar sexual dimorphism, so they have a size advantage against the men. Necrons are literally robot killing machines, there is no comparison in physical strength. Guardsmen fighting Hormagaunts in melee is ludicrous regardless of gender. Orks are going to wreck Guardsman in melee, even male ones.

Generally, the opponents that IG face are either humans themselves, who would have the exact same strengths and weaknesses, or aliens of various sorts who would generally slaughter humans in melee regardless of whether they're male or female. Or Tau, where the human is going to win regardless of their sex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Bewbs and a handy-j will do for some of them.

Draw me like one of your titanicus girls!

Flak Armor now comes with a chest zipper, for all your lewd distraction needs.

Aye yi yi. That's worse than the female commissar models.

I agree, but... doesn't modern kevlar come with a zipper up the middle of the vest? I've never actually seen one in person and certainly never worn one.

No, they don't. The zipper would be a massive failure point. And also I googled it.

 Verviedi wrote:
No, they don't. The zipper would be a massive failure point. And also I googled it.

Cool, thanks. : D

How do you get it on/off then? Just slip it over the head, I presume?

While I agree with most of what you say, orks can actually get defeated in melee by humans. In the Yarrick armageddon book a Sororitas leads a zealous penal army into a horde of orks and in the perspective of the lunatic the writing is in, he actually kills 3-4 before he dies.

And strength is not just about melee, it's about carrying supplies, carrying the wounded, pretty much everything that makes women soldiers ineffective today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
No, they don't. The zipper would be a massive failure point. And also I googled it.

Cool, thanks. : D

How do you get it on/off then? Just slip it over the head, I presume?

Yep. And I know the ones the police where have straps on the side so they're extra form fitting

Sorry, I'm a dumbass. I must have got old results or something when I googled it. Some have zippers in front, some have zippers in back, some are slipped over the head. Depends on model.
Most results have zippers in back, although some of them with inbuilt pouches have them in front.

 Pouncey wrote:

I agree, but... doesn't modern kevlar come with a zipper up the middle of the vest? I've never actually seen one in person and certainly never worn one.

No. Most use velcro/velcro-like fasteners.

That's the layout of the USMC's "Modular Tactical Vest", of which many other vests share similar styles(lots of fasteners and buckles).

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
While I agree with most of what you say, orks can actually get defeated in melee by humans. In the Yarrick armageddon book a Sororitas leads a zealous penal army into a horde of orks and in the perspective of the lunatic the writing is in, he actually kills 3-4 before he dies.

And strength is not just about melee, it's about carrying supplies, carrying the wounded, pretty much everything that makes women soldiers ineffective today.

A Sister of Battle leading a zealous unit of humans into battle is going to result in those humans having some help from the God-Emperor.

Supplies are mostly irrelevant, as IG don't carry much of those into battle in general since they're expected to die quickly and modern militaries have them carry tons of stuff under the assumption their goal is to survive.

Wounded are irrelevant since the IG have medical technology (and occasionally Hospitallers) capable of healing grievous wounds right on the battlefield to get them right back into battle.

What are the other things that makes women less suitable than men?

Also should we consider women being better at handling physical pain than men since in the 40k universe Guardsmen are expected to get shot a lot but keep fighting until death? Your ability to handle pain would be important then.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
No, they don't. The zipper would be a massive failure point. And also I googled it.

Cool, thanks. : D

How do you get it on/off then? Just slip it over the head, I presume?

Yep. And I know the ones the police where have straps on the side so they're extra form fitting

Cool.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Sounds like you're making assumptions. I play Skyrim, I'm sure some other people here do too. My first character was an Argonian, because I thought they were cool. Not because they properly represented me, or my feelings, but because I thought they were cool.

This is the crux of the problem; you are assuming everyone thinks like you, and those who do not are the deviants.

Has the possibility struck you that those who disagree with you may not be as insignificant as you think?

Or, alternatively, if you need another justification; what if other people think other things are 'cool'?

If you have to bring in your political stance on women in video games to enjoy it, I feel bad for you.

If you had to deal with most guys in your favourite media format serving as side characters at best or simple romances, often in suggestive poses and with inexplicably revealing clothes, over and over again for a very long time, I suspect you too would put value in every exception.

As said, I doubt it is a problem you can even imagine because it is so far from your status quo, but that does not mean it does not exist.

If the guard doesn't carry their supplies, who does? Someone has to carry all the rations and tents etc. Some wounds can't be healed by plot device #365, unless that morphine can grow back an arm.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
If the guard doesn't carry their supplies, who does? Someone has to carry all the rations and tents etc. Some wounds can't be healed by plot device #365, unless that morphine can grow back an arm.

I dunno. They never go into much detail about the logistics. I'm basing it partly on the fact that we almost never see IG models or art where they're carrying a ton of equipment.

Also they basically conduct warfare as though military strategy progress stopped at World War 1.

Also the IG medkit can't grow back an arm, but it CAN heal the stump to the point you don't need any further treatment in seconds.

Imperial tech is actually amazing, they're just gak at understanding it.

Ultimately though, my strongest argument is the same argument used to say that male Sisters of Battle don't exist and female Space Marines don't exist also applies to this situation. The reason male SoB and female Astartes aren't things is "Because the lore says so." And the lore ALSO says that the Imperial Guard use female humans a hell of a lot more than we actually see shown on the models. Whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant, since you're perfectly willing to accept the lore saying something is true as a valid reason for it to be true in those other cases, even when it's ridiculous. Male Sisters of Battle should be a thing, or Sisters of Battle shouldn't be a thing if the lore made sense, because the Sisters of Battle are almost completely equivalent to Astartes in terms of combat prowess in the lore, yet a reasonable and fairly low-ball estimation of their numbers according to the lore we DO have on their numbers says that the Imperium SHOULD have 10,000 of them for every single Space Marine they have, even assuming that 99% of all people who are Sisters of Battle are currently inactive for any reason whatsoever. Making the Ecclesiarchy MORE than capable of taking out the entirety of the Astartes in a war since the minor advantage Astartes have over Sororitas individually is outweighed by being outnumbered 10,000 to 1. They probably have the combat strength just in Sororitas alone to control the entire Imperium any time they want to, to say nothing of the non-Sororitas squads of zealots that would be raised in such a war! They probably have the numbers to even take on the ENTIRE Imperial Guard in an Imperium-wide war and WIN! And since the reason for Sororitas being allowed at all was a technicality in a law passed to say the Ecclesiarchy could NOT have a powerful army, it's a ludicrous situation! Either someone should have stepped in and said the Ecclesiarchy CAN'T have Sisters of Battle, or the position should've been opened to men too since no one cares about the Ecclesiarchy's power!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Sounds like you're making assumptions. I play Skyrim, I'm sure some other people here do too. My first character was an Argonian, because I thought they were cool. Not because they properly represented me, or my feelings, but because I thought they were cool.

This is the crux of the problem; you are assuming everyone thinks like you, and those who do not are the deviants.

Has the possibility struck you that those who disagree with you may not be as insignificant as you think?

If you have to bring in your political stance on women in video games to enjoy it, I feel bad for you.

If you had to deal with most guys in your favourite media format serving as side characters at best or simple romances, often in suggestive poses and with inexplicably revealing clothes, over and over again for a very long time, I suspect you too would put value in every exception.

As said, I doubt it is a problem you can even imagine because it is so far from your status quo, but that does not mean it does not exist.

Overwatch isn't exactly an exception, D.va, Widowmaker and Mercy are all wearing skintight body suits.

And don't give me this "oooh, you couldn't even imagine the struggle of a fictional character wearing a shirt that shows cleavage! The misogyny! What will we ever do?" crap. I fully understand your "struggle", but it doesn't make it any less silly you spend your money on whatever panders to your political views.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
If the guard doesn't carry their supplies, who does? Someone has to carry all the rations and tents etc. Some wounds can't be healed by plot device #365, unless that morphine can grow back an arm.

It does in CoD, iirc. Why not here?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
And strength is not just about melee, it's about carrying supplies, carrying the wounded, pretty much everything that makes women soldiers ineffective today.

wat.

 Pouncey wrote:
They probably have the combat strength just in Sororitas alone to control the entire Imperium any time they want to, to say nothing of the non-Sororitas squads of zealots that would be raised in such a war! They probably have the numbers to even take on the ENTIRE Imperial Guard in an Imperium-wide war and WIN!

The IG has trillions of soldiers, does it not? They will outnumber the SoB by quite an amount.

 Selym wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
They probably have the combat strength just in Sororitas alone to control the entire Imperium any time they want to, to say nothing of the non-Sororitas squads of zealots that would be raised in such a war! They probably have the numbers to even take on the ENTIRE Imperial Guard in an Imperium-wide war and WIN!

The IG has trillions of soldiers, does it not? They will outnumber the SoB by quite an amount.

The SoB have 10 billion Sisters of Battle PLUS all Imperial citizens INCLUDING Imperial Guard willing to obey the state religion in a coup.

Would 10,000 Space Marines be WAY more than sufficient to conquer an average Imperial world?

YES.

And the Sisters of Battle DO have the numbers to put 10,000 Sisters of Battle on EVERY Imperial world AT THE SAME TIME.

Does "all Imperial Citizens" include the traitors, heretics, xenotech-lovers, space marine recruit potentials and the garrison at the Sol system?

If not, you may have issues.

 Pouncey wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
If the guard doesn't carry their supplies, who does? Someone has to carry all the rations and tents etc. Some wounds can't be healed by plot device #365, unless that morphine can grow back an arm.

I dunno. They never go into much detail about the logistics. I'm basing it partly on the fact that we almost never see IG models or art where they're carrying a ton of equipment.

Also they basically conduct warfare as though military strategy progress stopped at World War 1.

Also the IG medkit can't grow back an arm, but it CAN heal the stump to the point you don't need any further treatment in seconds.

Imperial tech is actually amazing, they're just gak at understanding it.

Ultimately though, my strongest argument is the same argument used to say that male Sisters of Battle don't exist and female Space Marines don't exist also applies to this situation. The reason male SoB and female Astartes aren't things is "Because the lore says so." And the lore ALSO says that the Imperial Guard use female humans a hell of a lot more than we actually see shown on the models. Whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant, since you're perfectly willing to accept the lore saying something is true as a valid reason for it to be true in those other cases, even when it's ridiculous. Male Sisters of Battle should be a thing, or Sisters of Battle shouldn't be a thing if the lore made sense, because the Sisters of Battle are almost completely equivalent to Astartes in terms of combat prowess in the lore, yet a reasonable and fairly low-ball estimation of their numbers according to the lore we DO have on their numbers says that the Imperium SHOULD have 10,000 of them for every single Space Marine they have, even assuming that 99% of all people who are Sisters of Battle are currently inactive for any reason whatsoever. Making the Ecclesiarchy MORE than capable of taking out the entirety of the Astartes in a war since the minor advantage Astartes have over Sororitas individually is outweighed by being outnumbered 10,000 to 1. They probably have the combat strength just in Sororitas alone to control the entire Imperium any time they want to, to say nothing of the non-Sororitas squads of zealots that would be raised in such a war! They probably have the numbers to even take on the ENTIRE Imperial Guard in an Imperium-wide war and WIN! And since the reason for Sororitas being allowed at all was a technicality in a law passed to say the Ecclesiarchy could NOT have a powerful army, it's a ludicrous situation! Either someone should have stepped in and said the Ecclesiarchy CAN'T have Sisters of Battle, or the position should've been opened to men too since no one cares about the Ecclesiarchy's power!

You're right on the medical part I guess. And I would assume they leave it at their base, and only take the equipment they need like their canteens, a knife, etc.

Sororitas don't have all the extra organs and stuff though, so they are still a step down from SM.

And the reason there is no SoB that are dudes is because the ecclesiarchy signed some contract where men couldn't raise arms for them, so they got women to. Pretty cheeky. And we all know the SM's story by now.

Sure, throw in some girl bits for 40k, but I doubt it will ever happen because that requires money to do, and I don't think GW will ever see it as a sound investment. The best you can do is 3rd party bits probably.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Overwatch isn't exactly an exception, D.va, Widowmaker and Mercy are all wearing skintight body suits.

It doesn't matter to me if a game has slim bodysuits too and the like.

What I want is diversity - ie, like Overwatch, it has plenty of things that are not bodysuits.

I fully understand your "struggle", but it doesn't make it any less silly you spend your money on whatever panders to your political views.

And why the hell is this politics suddenly?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Overwatch isn't exactly an exception, D.va, Widowmaker and Mercy are all wearing skintight body suits.

It doesn't matter to me if a game has bodysuits too and the like.

What I want is diversity - ie, like Overwatch, it has plenty of things that are not bodysuits.

I fully understand your "struggle", but it doesn't make it any less silly you spend your money on whatever panders to your political views.

And why the hell is this politics suddenly?

Plus I feel like the very way the statement is phrased and "struggle" being in quotes implies it's very much untrue.

 Selym wrote:
Does "all Imperial Citizens" include the traitors, heretics, xenotech-lovers, space marine recruit potentials and the garrison at the Sol system?

If not, you may have issues.

Traitors and heretics aren't going to be helping the Imperium anyway. I'm unfamiliar with xenotech-lovers so I dunno. Space Marine recruit potentials just plain might help the Ecclesiarchy since they're still Imperial citizens and at that point follow the state religion.

Sol would be a hell of a war, but any Astartes defending it this time are not going to be facing anything NEAR equal numbers. Also in this hypothetical scenario, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't actually want to kill the Emperor or even most Imperial citizens, just control it.

Also, answer me this.

If you were able to put 9,000 Space Marines (accounting for even a 10% effectiveness loss) on EVERY Imperial planet at the same time, with them having the backing of most of the citizens, could you conquer the Imperium?

Selym wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
If the guard doesn't carry their supplies, who does? Someone has to carry all the rations and tents etc. Some wounds can't be healed by plot device #365, unless that morphine can grow back an arm.

It does in CoD, iirc. Why not here?

BossJakadakk wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
And strength is not just about melee, it's about carrying supplies, carrying the wounded, pretty much everything that makes women soldiers ineffective today.

wat.

I'm serious. Look at the research, you can't tell me with a straight face that a woman can do everything a man can. It's literally scientifically disproven. Women weren't in the drift for a reason, not just because muh sexism.

inb4 hurr GI jane!

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
You're right on the medical part I guess. And I would assume they leave it at their base, and only take the equipment they need like their canteens, a knife, etc.

Yup

Sororitas don't have all the extra organs and stuff though, so they are still a step down from SM.

Considering one of their duties is to cull Space Marine chapters, that's not a huge issue, especially since they outnumber Space Marines 10,000 to 1.

And the reason there is no SoB that are dudes is because the ecclesiarchy signed some contract where men couldn't raise arms for them, so they got women to. Pretty cheeky. And we all know the SM's story by now.

Correct. BECAUSE THE LORE SAYS SO.

The EXACT reason you're IGNORING when you argue AGAINST female Imperial Guard.

Sure, throw in some girl bits for 40k, but I doubt it will ever happen because that requires money to do, and I don't think GW will ever see it as a sound investment. The best you can do is 3rd party bits probably.

GW will never see it as a sound investment because they don't actually care much about their lore and don't do any market research. New models only come to exist because some random developer at GW wanted to make them.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Overwatch isn't exactly an exception, D.va, Widowmaker and Mercy are all wearing skintight body suits.

It doesn't matter to me if a game has slim bodysuits too and the like.

What I want is diversity - ie, like Overwatch, it has plenty of things that are not bodysuits.

I fully understand your "struggle", but it doesn't make it any less silly you spend your money on whatever panders to your political views.

And why the hell is this politics suddenly?

You said you value video games that treat women they way you wanted them treated a lot more than ones that don't, and I couldn't help but notice your signature and you can't tell me that opinion doesn't have at least some roots in your feminist ideology?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Selym wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
If the guard doesn't carry their supplies, who does? Someone has to carry all the rations and tents etc. Some wounds can't be healed by plot device #365, unless that morphine can grow back an arm.

It does in CoD, iirc. Why not here?

BossJakadakk wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
And strength is not just about melee, it's about carrying supplies, carrying the wounded, pretty much everything that makes women soldiers ineffective today.

wat.

I'm serious. Look at the research, you can't tell me with a straight face that a woman can do everything a man can. It's literally scientifically disproven. Women weren't in the drift for a reason, not just because muh sexism.

inb4 hurr GI jane!

Why do you hate 40k lore?

Is there in fact any reason to play 40k other than you like the game's lore or your friends play it instead of anything else?

The models are crazy-expensive and becoming gak with the tons of extra details. The rules are worse than gak and you'd probably get a more balanced and better game by eschewing the rules, using the models as army men, rolling no dice and arguing with your opponent, "I shot you!" "Nuh-uh!"

Let's face it. If you actually care about 40k at this point, the lore is important to you.

And the lore says that female Imperial Guard both exist and are effective enough to continue existing.

DEAL WITH IT.

 Pouncey wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
You're right on the medical part I guess. And I would assume they leave it at their base, and only take the equipment they need like their canteens, a knife, etc.

Yup

Sororitas don't have all the extra organs and stuff though, so they are still a step down from SM.

Considering one of their duties is to cull Space Marine chapters, that's not a huge issue, especially since they outnumber Space Marines 10,000 to 1.

And the reason there is no SoB that are dudes is because the ecclesiarchy signed some contract where men couldn't raise arms for them, so they got women to. Pretty cheeky. And we all know the SM's story by now.

Correct. BECAUSE THE LORE SAYS SO.

The EXACT reason you're IGNORING when you argue AGAINST female Imperial Guard.

Sure, throw in some girl bits for 40k, but I doubt it will ever happen because that requires money to do, and I don't think GW will ever see it as a sound investment. The best you can do is 3rd party bits probably.

GW will never see it as a sound investment because they don't actually care much about their lore and don't do any market research. New models only come to exist because some random developer at GW wanted to make them.

I'm not saying women don't serve in 40k, plenty do, I'm just saying there would be less than men.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Selym wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
If the guard doesn't carry their supplies, who does? Someone has to carry all the rations and tents etc. Some wounds can't be healed by plot device #365, unless that morphine can grow back an arm.

It does in CoD, iirc. Why not here?

BossJakadakk wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
And strength is not just about melee, it's about carrying supplies, carrying the wounded, pretty much everything that makes women soldiers ineffective today.

wat.

I'm serious. Look at the research, you can't tell me with a straight face that a woman can do everything a man can. It's literally scientifically disproven. Women weren't in the drift for a reason, not just because muh sexism.

inb4 hurr GI jane!

Why do you hate 40k lore?

Is there in fact any reason to play 40k other than you like the game's lore or your friends play it instead of anything else?

The models are crazy-expensive and becoming gak with the tons of extra details. The rules are worse than gak and you'd probably get a more balanced and better game by eschewing the rules, using the models as army men, rolling no dice and arguing with your opponent, "I shot you!" "Nuh-uh!"

Let's face it. If you actually care about 40k at this point, the lore is important to you.

And the lore says that female Imperial Guard both exist and are effective enough to continue existing.

DEAL WITH IT.

I don't, surprisingly enough. I know women soldiers exist in both real life and 40k, but it's not as tactically sound as it could be.