Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Salamanders are black as a result of their gene seed, like Space Wolves growing canines and Blood Angels craving blood.

Meaning that, since gene seed is derived from their Primarch, somewhere in the 31st millennium the emperor was creating a primarch who was black. Meaning he needed to get those genes from somewhere, and he sure as hell didn't get them from himself (unless the Primarchs are actually clones, at which point they should all be identical in terms of looks). Meaning he got it from black humans living in the 31st millennium.

Yeah, there are still black humans in the future.

Tallarn are Middle Eastern derived aesthetically, yes, but I defy you to definitively call them genetically middle eastern based on their models, and there's nothing in the lore saying that the population of Tallarn is specifically descended from the Arabian countries of Earth afaik. A Caucasian person growing up in a desert environment and wearing desert gear would look an awful lot like a Tallarn guardsman.

Especially on a tiny model.

...Or we could just point to any piece of lore that says humans are a very diverse species and generally infer that human genetic diversity over the millennia has grown, not decreased. Especially because abhumans are a thing.

Races should still be a thing. The alternative is that only white people survived to the 41st millennium and I don't think anyone's ever argued that that's the case on any side of the argument about more diverse models. Arguably there might even be races of humans in 40k that don't exist in real life.

40K Lexicanium wrote:Also, as a result of a reaction between their genetics and the high levels of radiation on Nocturne, Salamanders battle brothers have dark or jet black skin and bright, burning eyes. This frightening appearance is entirely superficial, but has intimidated more than one rebellion into submission without firing a shot.

Nothing to do with ethnicity. Vulkan grew up on Nocturne.

But that's me done, frankly dealing with a bunch of stream of consciousness half formed arguments and poorly informed lore arguments is exhausting.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Terminators were not created or designed for time travel assassination.

I didn't expect you to take that seriously. But in reluctant response. . .

A: Terminators weren't created for suicide bombing either.

They could've been if Skynet invented them. A thermobaric weapon is going to clear out a human tunnel just as well as a giant laser rifle

B: In a wasteland of detritus and equipment designed for use by humans, having a human form becomes useful in a reverse-ergonomic sort of way. Having a dog form, you might get stumped by a slightly more complicated than normal door. Or just a high shelf, for that matter.

Terminators didn't know where humans hid, and had to follow them back to their homes to find out where they were. A friendly robot dog following a trusting human can just wait for their human to open the door, since the terminators' job is to find out where humans live so they have to wait for the humans to lead them places anyways.

Or hell, option 2. Have the robot dog find out where the humans live, have it report their location and run away if barked at. Then fire a LARGE thermobaric weapon into that tunnel and make damned sure they're ALL dead.

I'm seriously beginning to question your goals here.

Anyways we're way off topic so I'm done.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Salamanders are black as a result of their gene seed, like Space Wolves growing canines and Blood Angels craving blood.

Tallarn are Middle Eastern derived aesthetically, yes, but I defy you to definitively call them genetically middle eastern based on their models, and there's nothing in the lore saying that the population of Tallarn is specifically descended from the Arabian countries of Earth afaik. A Caucasian person growing up in a desert environment and wearing desert gear would look an awful lot like a Tallarn guardsman.

Especially on a tiny model.

The coal-black Salamanders thing is a relatively recent thing. I've still got the 3rd Ed. Armageddon book where the model is just a healthy looking dark brown color. I really wonder at why the change came about.

As for Tallarns, I could try digging up my old IG codex and look around for references. Their special character from back in the day was definitely ethnically derived.

But overall I get the sense that GW as a company currently tends to carefully sidestep notions of race.

One thing unrelated to the race and gender issues is...

... everything, even Tyranids, is humanoid. Can't GW figure something else out? Some Tyranids actually hold their guns in their humanoid hands FFS!

 Azreal13 wrote:

40K Lexicanium wrote:Also, as a result of a reaction between their genetics and the high levels of radiation on Nocturne, Salamanders battle brothers have dark or jet black skin and bright, burning eyes. This frightening appearance is entirely superficial, but has intimidated more than one rebellion into submission without firing a shot.

Nothing to do with ethnicity. Vulkan grew up on Nocturne.

But that's me done, frankly dealing with a bunch of stream of consciousness half formed arguments and poorly informed lore arguments is exhausting.

I was talking about the old Salamanders lore, when Salamanders were not charcoal black but instead just plain black.

I'll see if I can find a video that explains what I mean.

Couldn't actually find it.

How about this. When Eldar fans in Eternal Crusade asked for pink hair on their Eldar, the devs didn't say no, they asked for one thing and they would make it so. Simply show them a single piece of official 40k artwork with an Eldar with pink hair, and they would make it so.

So in kind. Show me a single piece of official 40k art with even ONE black Cadian, and I will happily say that the lore DIRECTLY supports Cadia's population including enough black people to make a full army out of for anyone who chooses to do so. Because at that point it WILL be actual 40k lore that Cadians can be black.

A RT or 2nd Era Salamander with actually black skin...

Looks green from here. Note the statistically unlikely yellow hair.

 Selym wrote:
Looks green from here. Note the statistically unlikely yellow hair.

He looks brown on my screen. His armor's green, but his skin is clearly brown. And I'm pretty sure that something being statistically unlikely still means it's gonna happen eventually given enough chances.

Though, have we actually reached a time when people are unwilling to recognize that the original lore for a faction even existed before it got retconned?

 Melissia wrote:
One thing unrelated to the race and gender issues is...

... everything, even Tyranids, is humanoid. Can't GW figure something else out? Some Tyranids actually hold their guns in their humanoid hands FFS!

I wouldn't go so far as to call Tyranids humanoid. But some of them are definitely more anthropomorphic than I'd prefer. I really like the old, plastic Tyranid Warrior models though. They still held guns but they were a great looking alien.

So I make a valid post showing a real world example of how IG armies can get represented. I come back to find almost 300 posts. While there were a few that pointed out other ways that one could accomplish diversity within the current sprue offerings, most of the posts can be divided up into "Not. Good. ENOUGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and "lol get over it". I have that about right? I mean, I get that some people want an army that is 100% representative of themselves, but is that ultimately realistic?

 Just Tony wrote:
So I make a valid post showing a real world example of how IG armies can get represented. I come back to find almost 300 posts. While there were a few that pointed out other ways that one could accomplish diversity within the current sprue offerings, most of the posts can be divided up into "Not. Good. ENOUGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and "lol get over it". I have that about right? I mean, I get that some people want an army that is 100% representative of themselves, but is that ultimately realistic?

If it matters, I'm a white guy IRL so the vast majority of the human and Eldar minis are already representative of myself, and I'm still pushing for more diverse options for the factions where that diversity exists in the lore.

It doesn't help. I've watched you repeat the same argument 15 times, after it didn't take the first time. All because Cadians aren't necessarly from Cadia. Skin color is dictated by paint on your models, do it yourself. IG models can be male or female depending on how you paint them, that is the glory of their uniform and body armor. Tau are the same. If you REALLY feel that there should be more breasts prominent to decisively prove sex of the models, you're defeating over a hundred years of women fighting to not be objectified or oversexualized.

 Pouncey wrote:

Though, have we actually reached a time when people are unwilling to recognize that the original lore for a faction even existed before it got retconned?

Given that GW sets the precedent on these things, and that they do not care about the lore whatsoever, probably.

 Just Tony wrote:
It doesn't help. I've watched you repeat the same argument 15 times, after it didn't take the first time. All because Cadians aren't necessarly from Cadia. Skin color is dictated by paint on your models, do it yourself. IG models can be male or female depending on how you paint them, that is the glory of their uniform and body armor. Tau are the same. If you REALLY feel that there should be more breasts prominent to decisively prove sex of the models, you're defeating over a hundred years of women fighting to not be objectified or oversexualized.

Can you show me an example of two paint jobs of similar if not identical models where one looks female and the other looks male? I'm having a hard time buying that I can change a model's gender with just the paint I put on them.

Also it is 100% possible to create a miniature that is both distinctly female and yet not oversexualized. Examples of such have been posted in this very thread.

Also, I'm not sure what humans you exist around where the only difference in body shape between men and women is one having boobs and the other not, because that's not... reality whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Though, have we actually reached a time when people are unwilling to recognize that the original lore for a faction even existed before it got retconned?

Given that GW sets the precedent on these things, and that they do not care about the lore whatsoever, probably.

Considering that the last I heard on what is and is not canon is that each player gets to pick from the official sources what they consider canon, my personal 40k canon involves the Ultramarines having a Half-Eldar Chief Librarian.

I don't want to make an Ultramarines army, but if I did, I could put an Eldar head on a Librarian body, call it a half-Eldar Librarian, and be 100% within the established fluff as laid out by GW.

Don't worry. GW said there us no cannon.

Calgar is a daemon worshoppinng heretic who pays for his victories in the lives of humans.

 Selym wrote:
Don't worry. GW said there us no cannon.

Calgar is a daemon worshoppinng heretic who pays for his victories in the lives of humans.

So my scaly/furry Sisters of Battle are a go then? : D

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Don't worry. GW said there us no cannon.

Calgar is a daemon worshoppinng heretic who pays for his victories in the lives of humans.

So my scaly/furry Sisters of Battle are a go then? : D

Have at it!

 Pouncey wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Salamanders are black as a result of their gene seed, like Space Wolves growing canines and Blood Angels craving blood.

Meaning that, since gene seed is derived from their Primarch, somewhere in the 31st millennium the emperor was creating a primarch who was black. Meaning he needed to get those genes from somewhere, and he sure as hell didn't get them from himself (unless the Primarchs are actually clones, at which point they should all be identical in terms of looks). Meaning he got it from black humans living in the 31st millennium.

Yeah, there are still black humans in the future.

All Space Marines and Primarchs are black. And white. At the same time. One of the implants that they get is the melanchromic organ. The effect of this organ is that the amount of pigmentation (and thus skin colour) of a Space Marine adapts to the amount of light and radiation in his environment. The permanently black colour of Vulkan and his Salamanders is caused by the malfunction of their melanchromic organs due to the particular radiation of their home planet of Nocturne. The Emperor did not create a black primarch. Vulkan becoming black was unintended. The Emperor did not create his Primarchs and Space Marines with a single skin colour, he created them with a skin colour that changes depending on their environment.


Also, in terms of realism, people in 40k could have skin colours that are totally unlike those which we know today. After all, white skin itself is only a very recent development in the human species. White skin colour emerged less than 7000 years ago. 40k is set about 38000 years into the future. Realistically, humans would not at all look like present-day humans anymore as humans continue to evolve to adapt to new environments.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Salamanders are black as a result of their gene seed, like Space Wolves growing canines and Blood Angels craving blood.

Meaning that, since gene seed is derived from their Primarch, somewhere in the 31st millennium the emperor was creating a primarch who was black. Meaning he needed to get those genes from somewhere, and he sure as hell didn't get them from himself (unless the Primarchs are actually clones, at which point they should all be identical in terms of looks). Meaning he got it from black humans living in the 31st millennium.

Yeah, there are still black humans in the future.

All Space Marines and Primarchs are black. And white. At the same time. One of the implants that they get is the melanchromic organ. The effect of this organ is that the amount of pigmentation (and thus skin colour) of a Space Marine adapts to the amount of light and radiation in his environment. The permanently black colour of Vulkan and his Salamanders is caused by the malfunction of their melanchromic organs due to the particular radiation of their home planet of Nocturne. The Emperor did not create a black primarch. Vulkan becoming black was unintended. The Emperor did not create his Primarchs and Space Marines with a single skin colour, he created them with a skin colour that changes depending on their environment.

When you call an implant you designed a "melanchromic" anything, you know extremely well that you just created an option to change skin color, because you named the implant after that function.

So yes, Vulkan being black WAS intended. The organ's name would've been made before it was ever put into anyone, because the time to name something you're inventing is absolutely before sticking it into a human being.

Also, in terms of realism, people in 40k could have skin colours that are totally unlike those which we know today. After all, white skin itself is only a very recent development in the human species. White skin colour emerged less than 7000 years ago. 40k is set about 38000 years into the future. Realistically, humans would not at all look like present-day humans anymore as humans continue to evolve to adapt to new environments.

I agree.

Also the presence of many forms of abhumans is canon. Abhumans are essentially evolutions of humans that diverged enough to not be considered fully human, not not enough to be a distinct species on their own.

Which reminds me that Felinids are canonical in WH40k lore and are essentially some form of human with feline ears and some bizarre skin colorations reminiscient of a cat.

So if you wanted to also argue for a catwoman (as in a feline woman, not the comic character) model for the IG, it would also be supported by the lore.

Because it seems my point flew over a couple of heads, my reference to psychic powers was to highlight that if humanity has changed enough to induce genetic space magic, we have no idea as to what other changes may have happened.

Abhumans are another piece of evidence that 38,000 years is plenty of time for genes to change in this setting.

Wow. I went to sleep and came back and found three (?) pages of posts that include everything from Terminator bomb-dogs to "Is Vulkan Black or not?"

...

Er...

So, to answer the thread's resident anti-diversity chap:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Gen.Steiner 699785 8846076 wrote:1) Have the sculptors create heads for Marines and Guard that are representative of different generalised ethnic groups: European, Asian, African; so that not every model has a White Man Face. If sculptors like Kev White can create figures that are recognisably Black, or ranges like Copplestone's Chinese Warlord armies, or - actually - any 28mm historical manufacturer can produce figures that look like the ethnicities they're supposed to represent, I don't see why Games Workshop's sculptors can't give us African-descent Space Marines or Asian-descent Guardsmen or whatnot.

2) Between 3-4 female torsos and heads in every box of Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Imperial Guard and Adeptus Mechanicus.

3) Relaunch the Sisters of Battle with a fully supported range of plastic figures, a new Codex, and so on and so forth.

4) Have the painting team paint the humans in a much more diverse way - I was really pleased to see the Stormcast Questor painted with Black skin.

5) More Xenos species - Hrud, Demiurg, more Kroot, and weirder races like the Bargheesi or the Loxatl.

6) Codex: Enemy Within covering Chaos and Genestealer cults, with male and female cultist models... and Arbites too (also male and female).

And that covers it nicely I think.

In terms of WIMMIN R WEAK LOL...

The YPJ beg to differ, as do the Scythians, the Dahomey, the Soviet Union, Tito's Partisans, the FARC, and pretty much every revolutionary and guerilla army ever, not to mention the operatives of the SOE, the Israeli Defence Force, and so on and so forth. I mean, there's even evidence to show that people like the Vikings had female warriors, while the American Indian tribes had not just female but intersex and transgender warriors; and the Tunisian Berbers who fought the Arab conquests were mostly led by women as they were a matriarchal culture.

Sure, on average looking at a normal distribution curve, men are statistically stronger than the statistical average woman, however, I would not like to try and fight any woman with even a modicum of training in any martial art, and the curves themselves will show you quite clearly that a proportion of women will equal or better the strongest men.

In terms of modern combat, and then extrapolating a mere 38,000 years into the future... 38,000 years ago Humanity was in the early stone age, and Neanderthals had been extinct for roughly 2,000 years. In Rogue Trader, it is explicitly stated that High Gothic and Low Gothic are totally alien languages that bear no resemblance to anything spoken or written today, and they are 'translated' into Latin and English respectively for our ease of understanding as players. To say that we can discuss "average" people in the year 40,000 is nonsensical, as the descendants of genetically enhanced settler peoples from the Golden Age of Humanity would vary so wildly in their genetic makeup as to be wholly new species in many cases.

The fact is, the background of Warhammer 40,000 clearly shows a much more diverse makeup to human and alien societies than is represented on the tabletop; and it would be nice for Games Workshop to produce official models to reflect their own background.

1. Except every Cadians guardsmen is just that, cadian. There is no race mixing on Cadians unlike Earth, so no, they shouldn't get those different heads. Space Marines are in the same boat, their geneseed changes them to the point where they all look damn near the same.

2. If GW had infinite piles of cash, sure, why not. (Dark eldar already have this though)

3. Once again, this delves into the resources and business plan/success of GW. You don't invest that much money into a faction with just a leap of faith, it is a huge risk. If GW had infinite money, sweet.

4. Again, this usually goes against the Lore and is super forceful when for some reason Ultras, Celestial Lions and White Scars team up for no other reason than the perfect ethnic trio. (Actually on is a generic white dude, scratch that, make ultras the Arabian guardsmen dudes). Once again, there is little to no race mixing in 40k so most of the minority themed armies are isolated to the point where they are the only representation of their race.

5. Too old school for the new 40k it currently is compared to RT.

6. Why would arbites be in the same book as the dudes they kill?

And female warriors exist and will always exist, but you are literally lying to yourself if you don't think men are stronger than women. Have you ever heard of testosterone? The thing that gives you a lot of muscles? Men have a lot of it, women don't. Figure out the rest for yourself.

If every race, army, and faction was represented on tabletop as in the background, it'd be literally impossible for GW to produce that ridiclous amount of models. Therefore they pick flagship factions and armies, and run with those. (Cadians, Ultras, etc.)

In response, then.

The Cadian Shock Troop box is intended not just to represent Cadians, but also other Imperial Guard units. If we accept that Cadia is a planet where the original settlers were all white, and that the result after at least 10,000 years of living on Cadia is that the whole population is white, we are still left with the issue that it does not adequately represent other planetary forces. Whilst it is possible to paint your little plastic and metal figures whatever skin colour you like (my own Rigellians have a wide variety of skin tones, while my Drokharan Tauregs are all Black - although their commissar is white), there shouldn't be an issue with including even a couple of optional heads that have different facial features, given that there are more than 10 heads in a box anyway! This goes double for the Catachans, where official art does show Black Catachans, yet none of the heads have features that represent the artwork. On top of that, revamped Sisters of Battle should definitely have mixed features, because they don't recruit from single worlds - they recruit from Schola Progenia, which take orphans from across Sectors of Imperial space.

Yes, Dark Eldar do already have this (and I think it's excellent) - so why not the Imperial Guard, the Chaos Cultists, the Genestealer Cult, the Eldar, the Aspect Warriors, and so on and so forth? It doesn't take much - they already redesign and revamp sprues for each re-release of a Codex, and adding 3 female torsos and heads in each box would be a great touch.

A... leap of faith, you say? Faith? How fitting for the Sisters of Battle, the Church Militant of the Ecclesiarchy, the armed wing of the Ordo Hereticus, the women whose belief is so strong they can do the impossible! Amusement aside, we can see the impact that the 5th Edition re-release of Dark Eldar had on the Dark Eldar community, while the Harlequins, Deathwatch and Adeptus Mechanicus/Skitarii are all such leaps of faith - not to mention the same can be said for the Necrons (2nd Edition), the original Dark Eldar release in 3rd, and the original release of the Tau (late 3rd Edition). This is not an argument that makes any sense, I'm afraid, especially as the Adepta Sororitas have models and a codex and sales already.

Regardless of how 'old school' it is, it has not - ever - been retconned, at least as far as I am aware. High Gothic and Low Gothic (and all their many, many dialects) are not actually pig-Latin or English. They are their own languages. I don't know why this is hard to believe; given that English once got written in runic script and even when it started using the latin script it looked like this:

Her Aethelstan cyning, eorla dryhten,
beorna beag-giefa, and his brothor eac,
Eadmund aetheling, ealdor-langetir
geslogon aet saecce sweorda ecgum
ymbe Brunanburh. Bord-weall clufon,
heowon heathu-linde hamora lafum
eaforan Eadweardes, swa him ge-aethele waes
fram cneo-magum thaet hie aet campe oft
with lathra gehwone land ealgodon,
hord and hamas. Hettend crungon,
Scotta leode and scip-flotan,
faege feollon. Feld dennode
secga swate siththan sunne upp
on morgen-tid, maere tungol,
glad ofer grundas, Godes candel beorht,
eces Dryhtnes, oth seo aethele gesceaft
sag to setle. Thaer laeg secg manig
garum agieted, guma Northerna
ofer scield scoten, swelce Scyttisc eac,
werig, wiges saed.

That's the first verse of the Battle of Brunanburh, dated from 937, a mere 1,079 years ago - let alone 28,000 years in the future!

And, as far as Arbites in the same book as the cults... there's at least one story that shows an Arbites Judge who's part of a Genestealer Cult (he kills his junior to allow the cult into an Arbites Precinct House, thus ending effective resistance to the cult). So not only is there a good reason to allow cult players to have a smattering of 'turned' Arbites, it enables players to buy a book with the intention of fielding, say, a Precinct House's Arbites, and then decide afterwards "hey, wouldn't it be cool to collect some Chaos cultists too?" without having to buy a second book. Just my own wishlisting there really, as GW would be much more likely to have Codex: Genestealer Cults, Codex: Chaos Cults and Codex: Adeptus Arbites. But it's not without precedent, Codex: Angels of Death had both Dark and Blood Angels in it.

#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:And female warriors exist and will always exist, but you are literally lying to yourself if you don't think men are stronger than women. Have you ever heard of testosterone? The thing that gives you a lot of muscles? Men have a lot of it, women don't. Figure out the rest for yourself.

If every race, army, and faction was represented on tabletop as in the background, it'd be literally impossible for GW to produce that ridiclous amount of models. Therefore they pick flagship factions and armies, and run with those. (Cadians, Ultras, etc.)

OK, that's ... that's not what I said. I am aware of testosterone, and its impact on human physiology (see Caster Semenya, and the use of testosterone in female-to-male transgender people, etc). What I said was, looking at the normal distribution curve of human ability, you will have people of all genders who can out-compete almost everyone else. For example, Milla Bizzotto, who is nine. Or just look at the Olympics! Sure, Usain Bolt is faster than Elaine Thompson over 100m (9.81sec against 10.71 sec, a difference of 0.9 seconds) but both are faster than anyone else on Earth over 100m. And finally, the YPJ are right this moment fighting a proper actual war, with real bullets and hand-to-hand combat, against men, and doing really rather well. Not to mention that the Dahomey women warriors fought with a mix of muskets and machetes, and took no prisoners because they were headtakers - the French Army had a nasty shock fighting the Dahomey in the 19th Century and lost a lot of men... in... hand-to-hand combat...

Look, I'm not saying "all women are super strong", I'm saying that using physical strength to rule women out from being soldiers in an imaginary far-future army that officially already includes women (see: Xenonia (3rd Edition Guard Codex), Dneipr (3rd Edition Guard Codex), the Tanith, the Valhallans, etc) is just nonsensical.

Like I said earlier, literally no-one loses if GW produces more diverse models to accurately reflect their own background. At this point, the only reason I can see for you so vehemently arguing against the inclusion of more female models and heads with non-White facial features is because you are a knee-jerk bigot.

Fun story about people who claim to just hate forced diversity because it takes away from artistic freedom and corrupts the art.

On the Overwatch forums, people used to frequently ask about the possibility of their home country getting a character at some point. Not saying it had to happen immediately, not trying to make the devs put any effort into it they wouldn't have otherwise, just simply, "Is this something we might possibly see at some point?"

And generally they'd have their threads bombarded with people arguing about how much forced diversity sucks and whatnot.

But I noticed something.

Every single time the suggestion for a Canadian hero came up, there were no complaints at all about forced diversity. Just tons of +1s and people saying how awesome it would be to play a Canadian and talking about the accent and appearance and abilities they might have, and zero negativity of any sort. Including in the many threads going into great detail about the particular Canadian hero they were suggesting.

And then I noticed something else.

Every time the complaints about forced diversity ruining everything came up, it was because a nationality was asked about where the predominant population isn't white.

From this, I deduced that the complaints about diversity are not actually complaints about diversity. If they WERE complaints about diversity, they would equally target the Canadian and other nationalities where the character is likely to be white. So the only possible option, is that complaints about diversity, are really just saying that they don't want non-white people in the game.

So I decided to casually post in one of the threads receiving complaints about forced diversity, without actually quoting anyone so that my reply would apply to everyone equally, very calmly and politely, about how I'd never seen the suggestions for a Canadian hero receive this many complaints.

And then the cries of "Forced diversity!" stopped. Almost immediately.

Because it's not forced diversity they hate. It's that they want to oppose specifically non-white characters being put into the game.

Ultimately, forcing people to confront themselves with the fact they're disguising their own racism behind the more noble goal of protecting artistic freedom is enough to get most of them to stop. At least for a while.

Heh. Canadian Overwatch Hero - First Nations person. That'd set the cat among the pigeons.

It's funny, really, in a way. It must be strange to feel threatened by 28mm tall figures that represent people other than a white man.

Shock! Horror! This Imperial Guard trooper is - gasp - a woman! And this one is *faints* BLACK! Don't they know that in the 41st Millenium all humans are white men?!

What is the world coming to. It's almost like 51% of the planet is female, and over 80% aren't white! Dear me.

Gen.Steiner wrote:
Heh. Canadian Overwatch Hero - First Nations person. That'd set the cat among the pigeons.

It's funny, really, in a way. It must be strange to feel threatened by 28mm tall figures that represent people other than a white man.

Shock! Horror! This Imperial Guard trooper is - gasp - a woman! And this one is *faints* BLACK! Don't they know that in the 41st Millenium all humans are white men?!

What is the world coming to. It's almost like 51% of the planet is female, and over 80% aren't white! Dear me.

I have also considered mentioning in the pro-Canadian posts that a non-white Canadian hero would be 100% suitable (and also a First Nations hero would be spiffy because we don't actually have any First Nations characters in Overwatch but we do have a wide variety of other races). But I don't think it'd be received as well.

Most people do seem to be assuming a Canadian hero would be white, and that's not a certainty whatsoever due to Canada's fairly diverse population.

 Pouncey wrote:

Every time the complaints about forced diversity ruining everything came up, it was because a nationality was asked about where the predominant population isn't white.

From this, I deduced that the complaints about diversity are not actually complaints about diversity. If they WERE complaints about diversity, they would equally target the Canadian and other nationalities where the character is likely to be white. So the only possible option, is that complaints about diversity, are really just saying that they don't want non-white people in the game.

So I decided to casually post in one of the threads receiving complaints about forced diversity, without actually quoting anyone so that my reply would apply to everyone equally, very calmly and politely, about how I'd never seen the suggestions for a Canadian hero receive this many complaints.

And then the cries of "Forced diversity!" stopped. Almost immediately.

Because it's not forced diversity they hate. It's that they want to oppose specifically non-white characters being put into the game.

Ultimately, forcing people to confront themselves with the fact they're disguising their own racism behind the more noble goal of protecting artistic freedom is enough to get most of them to stop. At least for a while.

I take it this is on an english-speaking forum, yes?

It may not be about ethnicity. It's far more likely that they are against (at least subconsciously) having to deal with new and different cultures. The English speaking world takes Australia, Canada, the UK, the USA and related others. These are places of a white majority, yes, but they are also of a notably similar culture, linked by the same language, making them feel familiar.

Compare this to, say, anything from the middle-east, obscure eastern-European countries and Russia. Not the same language, unfamiliar cultures.

 Selym wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Every time the complaints about forced diversity ruining everything came up, it was because a nationality was asked about where the predominant population isn't white.

From this, I deduced that the complaints about diversity are not actually complaints about diversity. If they WERE complaints about diversity, they would equally target the Canadian and other nationalities where the character is likely to be white. So the only possible option, is that complaints about diversity, are really just saying that they don't want non-white people in the game.

So I decided to casually post in one of the threads receiving complaints about forced diversity, without actually quoting anyone so that my reply would apply to everyone equally, very calmly and politely, about how I'd never seen the suggestions for a Canadian hero receive this many complaints.

And then the cries of "Forced diversity!" stopped. Almost immediately.

Because it's not forced diversity they hate. It's that they want to oppose specifically non-white characters being put into the game.

Ultimately, forcing people to confront themselves with the fact they're disguising their own racism behind the more noble goal of protecting artistic freedom is enough to get most of them to stop. At least for a while.

I take it this is on an english-speaking forum, yes?

It may not be about ethnicity. It's far more likely that they are against (at least subconsciously) having to deal with new and different cultures. The English speaking world takes Australia, Canada, the UK, the USA and related others. These are places of a white majority, yes, but they are also of a notably similar culture, linked by the same language, making them feel familiar.

Compare this to, say, anything from the middle-east, obscure eastern-European countries and Russia. Not the same language, unfamiliar cultures.

So it's not racism, it's just xenophobia?

That's a bit better... I guess.

 Pouncey wrote:
Fun story about people who claim to just hate forced diversity because it takes away from artistic freedom and corrupts the art.

On the Overwatch forums, people used to frequently ask about the possibility of their home country getting a character at some point. Not saying it had to happen immediately, not trying to make the devs put any effort into it they wouldn't have otherwise, just simply, "Is this something we might possibly see at some point?"

And generally they'd have their threads bombarded with people arguing about how much forced diversity sucks and whatnot.

But I noticed something.

Every single time the suggestion for a Canadian hero came up, there were no complaints at all about forced diversity. Just tons of +1s and people saying how awesome it would be to play a Canadian and talking about the accent and appearance and abilities they might have, and zero negativity of any sort. Including in the many threads going into great detail about the particular Canadian hero they were suggesting.

And then I noticed something else.

Every time the complaints about forced diversity ruining everything came up, it was because a nationality was asked about where the predominant population isn't white.

From this, I deduced that the complaints about diversity are not actually complaints about diversity. If they WERE complaints about diversity, they would equally target the Canadian and other nationalities where the character is likely to be white. So the only possible option, is that complaints about diversity, are really just saying that they don't want non-white people in the game.

So I decided to casually post in one of the threads receiving complaints about forced diversity, without actually quoting anyone so that my reply would apply to everyone equally, very calmly and politely, about how I'd never seen the suggestions for a Canadian hero receive this many complaints.

And then the cries of "Forced diversity!" stopped. Almost immediately.

Because it's not forced diversity they hate. It's that they want to oppose specifically non-white characters being put into the game.

Ultimately, forcing people to confront themselves with the fact they're disguising their own racism behind the more noble goal of protecting artistic freedom is enough to get most of them to stop. At least for a while.

Maybe, just maybe, something isn't racist, but the vast majority would rather a hero from a large country with plenty of players, instead of a hero from Zimbabwe which 2 people could enjoy?

Gen.Steiner wrote:
Wow. I went to sleep and came back and found three (?) pages of posts that include everything from Terminator bomb-dogs to "Is Vulkan Black or not?"

...

Er...

So, to answer the thread's resident anti-diversity chap:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Gen.Steiner 699785 8846076 wrote:1) Have the sculptors create heads for Marines and Guard that are representative of different generalised ethnic groups: European, Asian, African; so that not every model has a White Man Face. If sculptors like Kev White can create figures that are recognisably Black, or ranges like Copplestone's Chinese Warlord armies, or - actually - any 28mm historical manufacturer can produce figures that look like the ethnicities they're supposed to represent, I don't see why Games Workshop's sculptors can't give us African-descent Space Marines or Asian-descent Guardsmen or whatnot.

2) Between 3-4 female torsos and heads in every box of Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Imperial Guard and Adeptus Mechanicus.

3) Relaunch the Sisters of Battle with a fully supported range of plastic figures, a new Codex, and so on and so forth.

4) Have the painting team paint the humans in a much more diverse way - I was really pleased to see the Stormcast Questor painted with Black skin.

5) More Xenos species - Hrud, Demiurg, more Kroot, and weirder races like the Bargheesi or the Loxatl.

6) Codex: Enemy Within covering Chaos and Genestealer cults, with male and female cultist models... and Arbites too (also male and female).

And that covers it nicely I think.

In terms of WIMMIN R WEAK LOL...

The YPJ beg to differ, as do the Scythians, the Dahomey, the Soviet Union, Tito's Partisans, the FARC, and pretty much every revolutionary and guerilla army ever, not to mention the operatives of the SOE, the Israeli Defence Force, and so on and so forth. I mean, there's even evidence to show that people like the Vikings had female warriors, while the American Indian tribes had not just female but intersex and transgender warriors; and the Tunisian Berbers who fought the Arab conquests were mostly led by women as they were a matriarchal culture.

Sure, on average looking at a normal distribution curve, men are statistically stronger than the statistical average woman, however, I would not like to try and fight any woman with even a modicum of training in any martial art, and the curves themselves will show you quite clearly that a proportion of women will equal or better the strongest men.

In terms of modern combat, and then extrapolating a mere 38,000 years into the future... 38,000 years ago Humanity was in the early stone age, and Neanderthals had been extinct for roughly 2,000 years. In Rogue Trader, it is explicitly stated that High Gothic and Low Gothic are totally alien languages that bear no resemblance to anything spoken or written today, and they are 'translated' into Latin and English respectively for our ease of understanding as players. To say that we can discuss "average" people in the year 40,000 is nonsensical, as the descendants of genetically enhanced settler peoples from the Golden Age of Humanity would vary so wildly in their genetic makeup as to be wholly new species in many cases.

The fact is, the background of Warhammer 40,000 clearly shows a much more diverse makeup to human and alien societies than is represented on the tabletop; and it would be nice for Games Workshop to produce official models to reflect their own background.

1. Except every Cadians guardsmen is just that, cadian. There is no race mixing on Cadians unlike Earth, so no, they shouldn't get those different heads. Space Marines are in the same boat, their geneseed changes them to the point where they all look damn near the same.

2. If GW had infinite piles of cash, sure, why not. (Dark eldar already have this though)

3. Once again, this delves into the resources and business plan/success of GW. You don't invest that much money into a faction with just a leap of faith, it is a huge risk. If GW had infinite money, sweet.

4. Again, this usually goes against the Lore and is super forceful when for some reason Ultras, Celestial Lions and White Scars team up for no other reason than the perfect ethnic trio. (Actually on is a generic white dude, scratch that, make ultras the Arabian guardsmen dudes). Once again, there is little to no race mixing in 40k so most of the minority themed armies are isolated to the point where they are the only representation of their race.

5. Too old school for the new 40k it currently is compared to RT.

6. Why would arbites be in the same book as the dudes they kill?

And female warriors exist and will always exist, but you are literally lying to yourself if you don't think men are stronger than women. Have you ever heard of testosterone? The thing that gives you a lot of muscles? Men have a lot of it, women don't. Figure out the rest for yourself.

If every race, army, and faction was represented on tabletop as in the background, it'd be literally impossible for GW to produce that ridiclous amount of models. Therefore they pick flagship factions and armies, and run with those. (Cadians, Ultras, etc.)

In response, then.

The Cadian Shock Troop box is intended not just to represent Cadians, but also other Imperial Guard units. If we accept that Cadia is a planet where the original settlers were all white, and that the result after at least 10,000 years of living on Cadia is that the whole population is white, we are still left with the issue that it does not adequately represent other planetary forces. Whilst it is possible to paint your little plastic and metal figures whatever skin colour you like (my own Rigellians have a wide variety of skin tones, while my Drokharan Tauregs are all Black - although their commissar is white), there shouldn't be an issue with including even a couple of optional heads that have different facial features, given that there are more than 10 heads in a box anyway! This goes double for the Catachans, where official art does show Black Catachans, yet none of the heads have features that represent the artwork. On top of that, revamped Sisters of Battle should definitely have mixed features, because they don't recruit from single worlds - they recruit from Schola Progenia, which take orphans from across Sectors of Imperial space.

Yes, Dark Eldar do already have this (and I think it's excellent) - so why not the Imperial Guard, the Chaos Cultists, the Genestealer Cult, the Eldar, the Aspect Warriors, and so on and so forth? It doesn't take much - they already redesign and revamp sprues for each re-release of a Codex, and adding 3 female torsos and heads in each box would be a great touch.

A... leap of faith, you say? Faith? How fitting for the Sisters of Battle, the Church Militant of the Ecclesiarchy, the armed wing of the Ordo Hereticus, the women whose belief is so strong they can do the impossible! Amusement aside, we can see the impact that the 5th Edition re-release of Dark Eldar had on the Dark Eldar community, while the Harlequins, Deathwatch and Adeptus Mechanicus/Skitarii are all such leaps of faith - not to mention the same can be said for the Necrons (2nd Edition), the original Dark Eldar release in 3rd, and the original release of the Tau (late 3rd Edition). This is not an argument that makes any sense, I'm afraid, especially as the Adepta Sororitas have models and a codex and sales already.

Regardless of how 'old school' it is, it has not - ever - been retconned, at least as far as I am aware. High Gothic and Low Gothic (and all their many, many dialects) are not actually pig-Latin or English. They are their own languages. I don't know why this is hard to believe; given that English once got written in runic script and even when it started using the latin script it looked like this:

Her Aethelstan cyning, eorla dryhten,
beorna beag-giefa, and his brothor eac,
Eadmund aetheling, ealdor-langetir
geslogon aet saecce sweorda ecgum
ymbe Brunanburh. Bord-weall clufon,
heowon heathu-linde hamora lafum
eaforan Eadweardes, swa him ge-aethele waes
fram cneo-magum thaet hie aet campe oft
with lathra gehwone land ealgodon,
hord and hamas. Hettend crungon,
Scotta leode and scip-flotan,
faege feollon. Feld dennode
secga swate siththan sunne upp
on morgen-tid, maere tungol,
glad ofer grundas, Godes candel beorht,
eces Dryhtnes, oth seo aethele gesceaft
sag to setle. Thaer laeg secg manig
garum agieted, guma Northerna
ofer scield scoten, swelce Scyttisc eac,
werig, wiges saed.

That's the first verse of the Battle of Brunanburh, dated from 937, a mere 1,079 years ago - let alone 28,000 years in the future!

And, as far as Arbites in the same book as the cults... there's at least one story that shows an Arbites Judge who's part of a Genestealer Cult (he kills his junior to allow the cult into an Arbites Precinct House, thus ending effective resistance to the cult). So not only is there a good reason to allow cult players to have a smattering of 'turned' Arbites, it enables players to buy a book with the intention of fielding, say, a Precinct House's Arbites, and then decide afterwards "hey, wouldn't it be cool to collect some Chaos cultists too?" without having to buy a second book. Just my own wishlisting there really, as GW would be much more likely to have Codex: Genestealer Cults, Codex: Chaos Cults and Codex: Adeptus Arbites. But it's not without precedent, Codex: Angels of Death had both Dark and Blood Angels in it.

#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:And female warriors exist and will always exist, but you are literally lying to yourself if you don't think men are stronger than women. Have you ever heard of testosterone? The thing that gives you a lot of muscles? Men have a lot of it, women don't. Figure out the rest for yourself.

If every race, army, and faction was represented on tabletop as in the background, it'd be literally impossible for GW to produce that ridiclous amount of models. Therefore they pick flagship factions and armies, and run with those. (Cadians, Ultras, etc.)

OK, that's ... that's not what I said. I am aware of testosterone, and its impact on human physiology (see Caster Semenya, and the use of testosterone in female-to-male transgender people, etc). What I said was, looking at the normal distribution curve of human ability, you will have people of all genders who can out-compete almost everyone else. For example, Milla Bizzotto, who is nine. Or just look at the Olympics! Sure, Usain Bolt is faster than Elaine Thompson over 100m (9.81sec against 10.71 sec, a difference of 0.9 seconds) but both are faster than anyone else on Earth over 100m. And finally, the YPJ are right this moment fighting a proper actual war, with real bullets and hand-to-hand combat, against men, and doing really rather well. Not to mention that the Dahomey women warriors fought with a mix of muskets and machetes, and took no prisoners because they were headtakers - the French Army had a nasty shock fighting the Dahomey in the 19th Century and lost a lot of men... in... hand-to-hand combat...

Look, I'm not saying "all women are super strong", I'm saying that using physical strength to rule women out from being soldiers in an imaginary far-future army that officially already includes women (see: Xenonia (3rd Edition Guard Codex), Dneipr (3rd Edition Guard Codex), the Tanith, the Valhallans, etc) is just nonsensical.

Like I said earlier, literally no-one loses if GW produces more diverse models to accurately reflect their own background. At this point, the only reason I can see for you so vehemently arguing against the inclusion of more female models and heads with non-White facial features is because you are a knee-jerk bigot.

Was waiting for bigot to be used. So someone argues that black people on Cadia isn't lore friendly (which it isn't) and that women are weaker than men, and they're a bigot? I don't understand. Everything in my argument is supported, but I'm a bigot?

Women do have greater endurance over long distances and timeframes compared to men. Men have a greater short-term strength and speed.

However, when we are talking about capabilities in this way, we are referring to their maximum potential. There is significant crossover. Sure, a woman may have to work harder than a man to acquire a certain level of strength, but both can at some point carry X kg of kit into the field, both have the mental capacity to use said equipment, and both will bleed just the same when shot.

This is why there are females in the army who aren't just constantly overshadowed by men in their capacity (just when it comes to recognition and promotions).

Are we really getting in to this argument again, about the supposed differences between generic man and generic woman in fiction, as imagined by various popular culture versions of statistics?