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After reading the new DW codex and fluff for death mask it got me thinking.
The codex as normal reads as a propaganda puff piece from the imperiums POV.

How ever when previous fluff is taken into account from older codex and the fluff from the 2 boardgames about the individual DW members.
It seems to imply that the DW appears to be where Chapter masters can off load there embarrassing,deranged or just unlinked chapter members.

The most obvious example is provided when Marysue Calgar offloaded Cassius to the DW as it was felt he was gaining to much support within the chapter for his personal crusade and unorthodox views.

I also cannot imagine that Atermis's CM was to upset about losing a sociopathic,cannibal, latent psychic who was dumb enough to stasis bomb his own arm off.

Most of the stories for the named DW members show them to be unliked by the battle brothers, fanatical zealots with views not supported by there chapter or having some other form of mental/emotional issues or sometimes all three. (Except the space wolf who was basicly just a gakker sent away before a brother slit his throat or he accidentally got eaten by a thunder wolf)

Ultimately I feel after reading a lot of fluff that there are not the elite of the elite but are somewhere the rejects can be sent to die with purpose rather than being executed or causing casualties among there brothers.

I haven't read the fluff for DW, but I don't think anyone is more elite than the Grey Knights (fluff-wise) except for the Custodes.

From your description, the DW sound a lot like Schaffer's Last Chancers.

The Deathwatch are Xenos hunters who go about preventing early threats to the greater Imperium before they get worse. Sure, there's some serious jerks in the Deathwatch, but they pass on their knowledge of the various Xenos when they return to their Chapter of origin. If they have one to go back to, at least. It's considered a great honour to be seconded to the Deathwatch most of the time. Sometimes it's a punitive measure.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I haven't read the fluff for DW, but I don't think anyone is more elite than the Grey Knights (fluff-wise) except for the Custodes.

From your description, the DW sound a lot like Schaffer's Last Chancers.

When did the Grey Knight become "better marines" ? They were just Chaos hunting / incorruptible marines, are they now descripted as better marines ?

 godardc wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I haven't read the fluff for DW, but I don't think anyone is more elite than the Grey Knights (fluff-wise) except for the Custodes.

From your description, the DW sound a lot like Schaffer's Last Chancers.

When did the Grey Knight become "better marines" ? They were just Chaos hunting / incorruptible marines, are they now descripted as better marines ?

You don't see how the all psyker, specially trained, force weapon wielding and super high level authority Chapter are better marines?

Power spiral is what it is.

We have Space Marines, the elite. Then Grey Knights were introduced, described as elite of the elite. But wait, now Deathwatch are also described as elite of the elite. We also have Custodes who are described as still better, so basically the elite of the elite of the elite.

There is only so much "eliting" that I can take.

The GK are better-equipped for dealing with threats "from beyond"... but their Force weapons and the like aren't really of any significant advantage against mundane foes or, especially, creatures resistant or immune to psychic effects.

The DW are definitely not the elite-of-the-elite, they're simply a specialized force for combating Xeno threats. The method by which the DW recruits does offer other Chapters a chance to temporarily (possibly permanently) offload some of their... let's call them "special"... members, but by the same token, the donating Chapter is not going to send someone that will cast the Chapter in a bad light. Service in the DW is as much a place to learn about various Xenos as it is to learn about the other loyalist Chapters, as it is not as if there is time or resources available for joint training exercises and such in the galaxy at large for most Chapters.

 Psienesis wrote:
The GK are better-equipped for dealing with threats "from beyond"... but their Force weapons and the like aren't really of any significant advantage against mundane foes or, especially, creatures resistant or immune to psychic effects.

The DW are definitely not the elite-of-the-elite, they're simply a specialized force for combating Xeno threats. The method by which the DW recruits does offer other Chapters a chance to temporarily (possibly permanently) offload some of their... let's call them "special"... members, but by the same token, the donating Chapter is not going to send someone that will cast the Chapter in a bad light. Service in the DW is as much a place to learn about various Xenos as it is to learn about the other loyalist Chapters, as it is not as if there is time or resources available for joint training exercises and such in the galaxy at large for most Chapters.

The GW Codex writers' video certainly refers to the DW as the elite of the elite.

Iracundus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The GK are better-equipped for dealing with threats "from beyond"... but their Force weapons and the like aren't really of any significant advantage against mundane foes or, especially, creatures resistant or immune to psychic effects.

The DW are definitely not the elite-of-the-elite, they're simply a specialized force for combating Xeno threats. The method by which the DW recruits does offer other Chapters a chance to temporarily (possibly permanently) offload some of their... let's call them "special"... members, but by the same token, the donating Chapter is not going to send someone that will cast the Chapter in a bad light. Service in the DW is as much a place to learn about various Xenos as it is to learn about the other loyalist Chapters, as it is not as if there is time or resources available for joint training exercises and such in the galaxy at large for most Chapters.

The GW Codex writers' video certainly refers to the DW as the elite of the elite.

All Codices do that, read the Space Wolves and Dark Angel's individual codex and you'll find that both consider themselves to be the pinnacle of Space Marine ability, the Wolves consider their keen senses and feral nature to be the Imperium's ultimate hunting tool, the Angels accolade themselves as the ultimate Heretic purgers and their accounts of 'The Wolf and the Lion' and you'll read two very different versions of the same story.

Deathwatch might claim to be the elite of the Elite Space Marines but it's more likely that Chapters send them marines of notable ability and a particular fascination for xenos habits but not their best, otherwise you'd have a chapter of HQ equivalents rather than a chapter of Elite equivalent.

SeanDrake wrote:

The most obvious example is provided when Marysue Calgar offloaded Cassius to the DW as it was felt he was gaining to much support within the chapter for his personal crusade and unorthodox views.

I also cannot imagine that Atermis's CM was to upset about losing a sociopathic,cannibal, latent psychic who was dumb enough to stasis bomb his own arm off.

Cassius was in the Deathwatch before he formed the Tyrannic War Veterans though, and eating people is not unusual for Mortifactors, or even Space Marines in general, they have an implant for that.

Going for what I remember of the fluff, to even be considered for secondment to the Deathwatch a Space Marine must have already shown a great deal of skill when it comes to killing xenos creatures. I'm thinking that your prime candidates would be Space Marines from the Ultramarines' cadre of Tyrannic War Veterans (like Chaplain Cassius) or members of the Crimson Fist who served throughout the entirety of the Rynn's World Campaign. Once this proficient talent has been noticed by the Space Marine's Company Commander, he's then reviewed and processed by members of the Reclusiam, the Librarium, and the Apothecarium before being sent on to the Deathwatch. And considering that serving in the Deathwatch is a way to project a certain image other Chapters - and the Inquisition - that only those Space Marines who fit their parent Chapter's ideals will be sent. Another thing to consider is that requirement that someone have proficient skill fighting Xenos creatures means that, more than likely, that a Space Marine who is going to be seconded to the Deathwatch will be drawn from the Chapter's First Company -- the elite of the Chapter.

pm713 wrote:
You don't see how the all psyker, specially trained, force weapon wielding and super high level authority Chapter are better marines?

To be fair, the GK aren't supposed to be superior marines in any way other than incorruptibility. What they are supposed to be is highly specialised experts at dealing with a specific, horrific threat. Nemesis force weapons aren't supposed to be just better- they are (or were) specific daemon killing tools.

GK should be equipped and trained for that role and never seen on a battlefield without Chaos. There are simply too few of them and they are too valuable to waste on mundane threats like orks or tyranids. If a guardsman can kill it, send them. Save the GK for the threats only the GK have a chance at defeating.

Ah, exactly what I thought, but is it still the case ? Or does GW refer to the GK as "the elite of the SM" too ?
BlueGrassGamer, you have some good arguments.

The Deathwatch is just the Ordo Xenos counterpart to the Ordo Malleus Grey Knights. Both are specialists in their respective "fields", with the tools, training, and talent to deal with specific threats.


Comparing the Deathwatch and Grey Knights is like comparing apples to oranges.

 Kojiro wrote:
To be fair, the GK aren't supposed to be superior marines in any way other than incorruptibility.

They also have superior wargear and magic powers.

Deathwatch are specialist xenohunters. They are certainly stellar in this task, and their equipment is good, but I'd argue they are closer to the Marine standard than to the GK overall.

GK are 'super-marines' and the best troops the Imperium has outside of Custodes (even then the Grey Knights are better team players). Their wargear is just on a whole different level, they are all psykers, and so on. They are particularly effective against Daemons but if their mission is interrupted by other foes, they will find that force weapons and mindbullets are deadly against physical flesh as well. In those situations the GK will also perform well; it may not be their speciality as they train mainly to fight Daemons, but the battles against others end up being rather extreme cases of 'train hard, fight easy'!

Iracundus wrote:
There is only so much "eliting" that I can take.

Welcome to 40k. This is not a realistic setting where a man with a gun can expect to take out most things and his friend with a rocket launcher can take out the rest. 40k power scaling is nuts, and it is a staple of the setting. A normal Guardsman is the best of the PDF, who are already well trained soldiers. Then we have Marines, each fighting like a hundred men (source as IG fans will inevitably ask for one: BFG:A, 'Space Marines' crew entry), who then themselves get their faces kicked in by Grey Knights!

Fortunately for IG fans, this gargantuan power curve corresponds with an increase in rarity, so few Guardsmen will even see a Marine, and no one will ever see a GK (no one will live to tell the tale, anyway).

Iracundus wrote:
Power spiral is what it is.

We have Space Marines, the elite. Then Grey Knights were introduced, described as elite of the elite. But wait, now Deathwatch are also described as elite of the elite. We also have Custodes who are described as still better, so basically the elite of the elite of the elite.

There is only so much "eliting" that I can take.

There can be more than one elite of the elite. Take the US military, the SEALs, SFOD-D (Delta Force), and 24th STS are all the "Elite of the Elite" (when compared to more "mundane" special operations units such as the Rangers, Green Berets, etc.). They fill different roles and don't necessarily have much (if any) overlap in function.

The Custodes shouldn't even be factored in, they are an entirely different organization and aren't marines to begin with.

The DW are definitely not the elite-of-the-elite

Except they are and have always been represented as such in the fluff. The Deathwatch have always been presented as being a spec ops organization for space marines. As the space marines are considered elite, and spec ops implies another level of eliteness, by default the Deathwatch are the Elite of the Elite.

A Guide to the Elite Military Forces of the Imperium:

Planetary Defense Force -> Astra Militarum -> Astra Militarum Veteran Units -> Tempestus Scions -> The Chapters of Space Marines -> Space Marine First Company Veterans

I'd say that, on the battlefields of the forty-first millennium, that the most common elite unit that the average citizen or solider of the Astra Militarum is likely to see would be the veteran units of the Astra Militarum. Then comes the Tempestus Scions, who might be slightly more common and would be carrying out orders from the Segmentum Command. If the situation is urgent enough, a request for help can be made to the Chapters of Space Marines. The Space Marines, however, may or may not accept the request for help and it is rare for the Space Marine Chapters to send more than a Company and its attached support elements.. If the Space Marines decide to help, they might call on a few squads from the Chapter's First Company to help secure vital objectives.

The Grey Knights and Kill Teams are the Deathwatch are, like Ashiraya and oldravenman3025 say, specialist troops. They might be considered elite units, but only when dealing with Daemons or Xenos forces. That said, Grey Knights and the Deathwatch usually turn up when the situation is at its most dire. If either the Grey Knights or the Deathwatch fail in their missions, expect for any Space Marines they've been fighting alongside to get mind-scrubbed. While the soldiers of the Astra Militarum will simply windup as casualties when the Deathwatch or Grey Knights' Inquisitorial masters decide that invoking Exterminatus is the only option they have left to them.

arent there fewer tempestus scions than there are space marines?

Animus wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
To be fair, the GK aren't supposed to be superior marines in any way other than incorruptibility.

They also have superior wargear and magic powers.

Oh for sure they do. Now. But that's a consequence of Ward and power creep. As I said, originally they were a group of marines attached to the Inquisition specifically to oppose Chaos. There's even old fluff that talks about how most GKs are explicitly not psychic. And the old integrated bolter was a literall 3 shot record your ammo bolt weapon. Fast forward to now and everyones psychic, super better than regular marines and has not just a bolter and force weapon but a stormbolter!

Yeah they're better, but that's for the worse overall. Making them more powerful makes them less interesting to me.

chaos0xomega wrote:
arent there fewer tempestus scions than there are space marines?

There's actually more Tempestus Scions than there are Space Marines. A Space Marine Chapter is usually composed of about ten companies of a hundred Space Marines each. The Second thru Fifth Companies of the Space Marines are considered "Battle Companies," who might be augmented with support from the First Company (Veterans) and Reserve Companies (Sixth thru Ten). So at any time, if a given Space Marine Chapter commits at least a Company to a warzone, that's at a least a hundred Space Marines. More, if the Space Marine Chapter sent along veterans from the First Company or elements from the Reserve Companies. All told, there are about a thousand Chapters of Space Marines. Tempestus Scions, on the other hand, are deployed at regimental strength. That means that the Tempestus Scions are deploying between two-thousand and four-thousand Scions at a time. We know that there's a 196th Regiment of the Iotan Gryphonnes and a 394th Regiment of the Deltic Lions, but we don't know how many total regiments the Deltic Lions or Iotan Gryphonnes can deploy at a time.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Fortunately for IG fans, this gargantuan power curve corresponds with an increase in rarity, so few Guardsmen will even see a Marine, and no one will ever see a GK (no one will live to tell the tale, anyway).

Not on the gaming tables, where Marines can make up anywhere from 60-80% or even more of all armies seen. That is what has led to the perception of the standard BS3/WS3 of the Guardsman and original EldarGuardian as subpar, even though that is supposed to be the baseline trained human soldier and therefore meant to be the most common in the galaxy (or BS2/WS2 if you count in human militias/gangs/cultists).

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


The Deathwatch is just the Ordo Xenos counterpart to the Ordo Malleus Grey Knights. Both are specialists in their respective "fields", with the tools, training, and talent to deal with specific threats.


Comparing the Deathwatch and Grey Knights is like comparing apples to oranges.

This.

The deathwatch are trained to combat Xenos, GK are trained to combat daemons. They're specialised in such a way that it's not fair to compare them imo.

The DW are not elite, they're the screwups of various chapters assigned to punishment duty to redeem their souls. And because they're screwups that their chapter doesn't want the Imperium is free to expend them on suicide missions where a small kill team might take out a key target but probably won't survive to return home.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Welcome to 40k. This is not a realistic setting where a man with a gun can expect to take out most things and his friend with a rocket launcher can take out the rest. 40k power scaling is nuts, and it is a staple of the setting. A normal Guardsman is the best of the PDF, who are already well trained soldiers. Then we have Marines, each fighting like a hundred men (source as IG fans will inevitably ask for one: BFG:A, 'Space Marines' crew entry), who then themselves get their faces kicked in by Grey Knights!

Fortunately for IG fans, this gargantuan power curve corresponds with an increase in rarity, so few Guardsmen will even see a Marine, and no one will ever see a GK (no one will live to tell the tale, anyway).

It's not just a problem for IG fans, it's a problem for everyone. Space marines don't feel elite anymore, they're just cannon fodder compared to the real elites. And it's boring fluff as well, when a new marine thing is defined as "like all the other marine things, except 200% more elite". It's like small children arguing about which superhero is better: "well batman is clearly 100000 power" vs. "but superman is 1000000000000000000 power". If GW would stop using "THEY ARE SO MUCH MORE ELITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!" as the lazy way of hyping every new thing we'd have much better fluff.

BlueGrassGamer wrote:
A Guide to the Elite Military Forces of the Imperium: Planetary Defense Force -> Astra Militarum -> Astra Militarum Veteran Units -> Tempestus Scions -> The Chapters of Space Marines -> Space Marine First Company Veterans

I'd say that, on the battlefields of the forty-first millennium, that the most common elite unit that the average citizen or solider of the Astra Militarum is likely to see would be the veteran units of the Astra Militarum.

Veteran IG for sure, but the next elite they'll see is probably a SoB detachment guarding the local cathedral. Not quite as elite as a Space Marine but fanatical, well trained and well equipped, able to drown a renegade Chapter in power armored bodies if it comes down to that. :-)

As for the Death Watch I really can't see Chapters offloading any real liabilities on the Ordo Xenos. Someone who doesn't quite fit in, sure, but it'll be more like someone too eager to try new tactics for the traditional Ultramarines, for example, not a loose cannon who habitually risks blowing up half his squad with demolition charges. The Space Wolves might send someone who doesn't enjoy drinking and boasting enough and so on.

Sadly that fluff has been changed.
I got them as the 'Suicide Squad' and found out that they're the latest Grey Kights...makes a person wonder what the mundane marines actually do when there is a specialist for every kind of threat.

I believe that when ecruiting these men for wearing black who hunt aliens is that they're "looking for the best, of the best, of the best, sir." Might be getting confused with some other similar thing though.

Generally they seem to take skilled veterans (as well as those of questionable past whowish to redeem themselves) and subject them to even more training and extra hypnotic brainwashing to make them value the life of their brothers more than themselves. Read somewhere that they are are forced to watch marines get violently killed over and over in circumstances where teamwork failed, while being subject yo the pain shownto them.

It's actually quite scary stuff

BlueGrassGamer wrote:
A Guide to the Elite Military Forces of the Imperium:

Planetary Defense Force -> Astra Militarum -> Astra Militarum Veteran Units -> Tempestus Scions -> The Chapters of Space Marines -> Space Marine First Company Veterans

Correct guide to elite military forces of the Imperium:

Games™ Workshop™ Citadel™ Tempestus™ Scions™ > PDF > normal marines > first company veterans > normal IG > elite IG (including storm troopers)

Spetulhu wrote:

BlueGrassGamer wrote:
A Guide to the Elite Military Forces of the Imperium: Planetary Defense Force -> Astra Militarum -> Astra Militarum Veteran Units -> Tempestus Scions -> The Chapters of Space Marines -> Space Marine First Company Veterans

I'd say that, on the battlefields of the forty-first millennium, that the most common elite unit that the average citizen or solider of the Astra Militarum is likely to see would be the veteran units of the Astra Militarum.

Veteran IG for sure, but the next elite they'll see is probably a SoB detachment guarding the local cathedral. Not quite as elite as a Space Marine but fanatical, well trained and well equipped, able to drown a renegade Chapter in power armored bodies if it comes down to that. :-)

Fair enough. And I'd say that both the Sisters of Battle and the Tempestus Scions are trained to the same standard, considering both come from the Schola Progenium. The Sisters of Battle might receive slightly more specialized training due to their use of powered armor.

Peregrine wrote:

BlueGrassGamer wrote:
A Guide to the Elite Military Forces of the Imperium:

Planetary Defense Force -> Astra Militarum -> Astra Militarum Veteran Units -> Tempestus Scions -> The Chapters of Space Marines -> Space Marine First Company Veterans

Correct guide to elite military forces of the Imperium:

Games™ Workshop™ Citadel™ Tempestus™ Scions™ > PDF > normal marines > first company veterans > normal IG > elite IG (including storm troopers)

.. I don't follow? And I think, in the fluff at least, the Storm Troopers have been replaced by the Tempestus Scions.

Deathwatch are both. Its a great honour to serve the Deathwatch because of this. They come knocking for your expert Xenos killers (being the most common enemy this generally means top guys). But at the same time, its a great way to offload undesirables via putting a spin on things.

For example

"Cassius, if you are so concerned about the Tyranids, go join the Deathwatch..."
"Excellent idea!"

"This is Mortificators Chapter Master calling Deathwatch, I've got an absolute beast of an Alien Hunter here, he'll do whatever it takes"
"Whatever it takes?"
"He stasis bombed his own arm to kill Xenos."
"feth yeah"