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Yes, but do you /need/ those?

Can someone really make an Unbound lIstanbul that's stronger than any bound list?

Reason Unbound lists are not fun.

Warhound titan 720
-Double barrel Laser Destroyer
-Double Barrel Laser Destroyer

Warhound Titan: 720
-Vulken Mega bolter
-Blasma Blast Canon

1440 pts list, and it total a legal unbound list.

sit in a corner and blast everything. Only thing thats gonna hurt it is if you get into melee with Str8+ weapons, which even then, they can stop and on a 6, anything under a blast template is just dead, on a 3-5, they take a S6 wound so.

Your not gonna have a good time.

I'm not familiar with the culture of Istanbul, so no, I cannot.

It isn't about cheese, its about a new rules that removes a huge portion of the game. Unbound armies remove the restriction on army building, which has existed since the beginning of the game. It's something that every player had in common. With formations and detachments things have changed, but for the majority of the games life span, we all played on the even playing field of a required 1HQ and 2 troops.

Then unbound came and said, "nah, you can do whatever you want now". The stigma is from people who feel like they follow the rules, that feel like unbound breaks the rules. Some people put a lot of work into their lists to make sure that it all stays bound, for some its an enjoying puzzle. Sure, I could easily go unbound and take this superheavy from another army, or I could "follow the rules" and make another detachment to bring it along.

Even though unbound is following the rules, to some people, it still is breaking them. It's the same difference in mentality of those who are adapting the FAQ draft and those who are rejecting it.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
It isn't about cheese, its about a new rules that removes a huge portion of the game. Unbound armies remove the restriction on army building, which has existed since the beginning of the game. It's something that every player had in common. With formations and detachments things have changed, but for the majority of the games life span, we all played on the even playing field of a required 1HQ and 2 troops.

Then unbound came and said, "nah, you can do whatever you want now". The stigma is from people who feel like they follow the rules, that feel like unbound breaks the rules. Some people put a lot of work into their lists to make sure that it all stays bound, for some its an enjoying puzzle. Sure, I could easily go unbound and take this superheavy from another army, or I could "follow the rules" and make another detachment to bring it along.

Even though unbound is following the rules, to some people, it still is breaking them. It's the same difference in mentality of those who are adapting the FAQ draft and those who are rejecting it.

This, again, see two titans in a 1500 point game lol

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Reason Unbound lists are not fun.

Warhound titan 720
-Double barrel Laser Destroyer
-Double Barrel Laser Destroyer

Warhound Titan: 720
-Vulken Mega bolter
-Blasma Blast Canon

1440 pts list, and it total a legal unbound list.

sit in a corner and blast everything. Only thing thats gonna hurt it is if you get into melee with Str8+ weapons, which even then, they can stop and on a 6, anything under a blast template is just dead, on a 3-5, they take a S6 wound so.

Your not gonna have a good time.

That's a player problem though, not an Unbound problem, you could always refuse to play that particular Unbound list. Is it really right to tell the guy with a fluffy Speed Freeks army that requires Unbound you refuse to play him because some TFG somewhere will field two Warhound Titans as Unbound? The problem here is people seem to be all or nothing. Either you allow Unbound and are "forced" to play the d-bag with 2x Titans, or you forbid Unbound and have some fluffy armies not able to be fielded, even though they aren't d-bag 2x Titan lists.

Why is it a binary thing? Why not allow Unbound and then if your opponent has a fluffy army, you play it, and if they have 2x Titans or some crap in a 1500 point game, you say no thanks I don't want to play against 2x Titans in a 1500 point game.

 d00mspire wrote:
The reason I ask this question is because my next project is a mechanised Imperial Army, made up of tanks.

Something like this:
Astra Militarum Tank Company/Artillery Company
Imperial Knight
Space Marines Tank Company (Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators)

This, without fielding any foot soldiers. The only models on foot would be the Techpriests and the Servitors.

You realize that both of those can be made with supplement material, right?

The Cadian unique detachment has the ability to run an all-tank list barring Techpriests(which are mandatory parts of the formations) and Angels of Death for Marines comes with a unique detachment called the "Anvil Strike Force" which is all tanks barring a few options for Techmarines(which also mandate you take a Rhino, unlike the Cadian one which have no transport options for the Techpriests).

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Reason Unbound lists are not fun.

Warhound titan 720
-Double barrel Laser Destroyer
-Double Barrel Laser Destroyer

Warhound Titan: 720
-Vulken Mega bolter
-Blasma Blast Canon

1440 pts list, and it total a legal unbound list.

sit in a corner and blast everything. Only thing thats gonna hurt it is if you get into melee with Str8+ weapons, which even then, they can stop and on a 6, anything under a blast template is just dead, on a 3-5, they take a S6 wound so.

Your not gonna have a good time.

And then you won't capture objectives and then Wraithknights start hitting you with D Cannons if they go first. If you can deal with Imperial Knights at 1500, you can deal with two Warhounds.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Reason Unbound lists are not fun.

Warhound titan 720
-Double barrel Laser Destroyer
-Double Barrel Laser Destroyer

Warhound Titan: 720
-Vulken Mega bolter
-Blasma Blast Canon

1440 pts list, and it total a legal unbound list.

sit in a corner and blast everything. Only thing thats gonna hurt it is if you get into melee with Str8+ weapons, which even then, they can stop and on a 6, anything under a blast template is just dead, on a 3-5, they take a S6 wound so.

Your not gonna have a good time.

Craftworld Warhost Detachment

Windrider Host:
115 Farseer jetbike
50 Warlock Conclave 1 model jetbike
81 3 scatterbikes
81 3 scatterbikes
81 3 scatterbikes
40 Vyper no upgrades

295 Wraithknight
295 Wraithknight
295 Wraithknight

1,335pts. Bound is better how, exactly?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Reason Unbound lists are not fun.

Warhound titan 720
-Double barrel Laser Destroyer
-Double Barrel Laser Destroyer

Warhound Titan: 720
-Vulken Mega bolter
-Blasma Blast Canon

1440 pts list, and it total a legal unbound list.

I like your example lets go deeper into that.

++ Space Wolves: Codex (2014) (SW Company of the Great Wolf Detachment) ++
790 Points
+ HQ +
Wolf Guard Battle Leader
··Power Armour [Frag & Krak Grenades]
+ Elites +
Servitors
··Servitor [Carapace Armour, Servo-arm]
Servitors
··Servitor [Carapace Armour, Servo-arm]
+ Lords of War +
Warhound Titan [2x Double-barrelled Turbo-laser Destructor, 2x Void Shields]

The current tax for a generic Imperial Lord of war is only 70 points
If no one brought my battle forged list to a local game near you why would you expect them to do so in an Unbound list ?

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Reason Unbound lists are not fun.

Warhound titan 720
-Double barrel Laser Destroyer
-Double Barrel Laser Destroyer

Warhound Titan: 720
-Vulken Mega bolter
-Blasma Blast Canon

1440 pts list, and it total a legal unbound list.

sit in a corner and blast everything. Only thing thats gonna hurt it is if you get into melee with Str8+ weapons, which even then, they can stop and on a 6, anything under a blast template is just dead, on a 3-5, they take a S6 wound so.

Your not gonna have a good time.

That's a player problem though, not an Unbound problem, you could always refuse to play that particular Unbound list. Is it really right to tell the guy with a fluffy Speed Freeks army that requires Unbound you refuse to play him because some TFG somewhere will field two Warhound Titans as Unbound? The problem here is people seem to be all or nothing. Either you allow Unbound and are "forced" to play the d-bag with 2x Titans, or you forbid Unbound and have some fluffy armies not able to be fielded, even though they aren't d-bag 2x Titan lists.

Why is it a binary thing? Why not allow Unbound and then if your opponent has a fluffy army, you play it, and if they have 2x Titans or some crap in a 1500 point game, you say no thanks I don't want to play against 2x Titans in a 1500 point game.

No, its a problem with Unbound (not that Battleforged is really any better at this point between allies and formation freebies) but with Unbound, you cant say "bring anything" and then call people dbags when they do. People will do what the rules allow, if things arent intended to be done the rules should exclude that.

Besides, a pair of Warhounds can in theory be just as fluffy as anything else. Warhounds typically operate in pairs as scouting elements for Tital Legions, surely a scouing Warhound maniple encountering a Speed Freaks ork raiding force wouldnt be unfluffy would it? One sided and brutal, but not unfluffy.

This is why games typically have coherent army construction rules that dont allow things like this, which are inherently and fundamentally issues with Unbound.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
The stigma is from people who feel like they follow the rules, that feel like unbound breaks the rules.

Even though unbound is following the rules, to some people, it still is breaking them.

I wouldn't say so much that it's breaking the rules so much as simply tossing them out the window and playing in a sanbox jumble. Coherent and organized force construction is a crucial elements in war games both for theme and practical reasons, and real battlefield forces reflect this as well, its a resource management challenge. When this is removed, it feels like a crucial component of the wargaming experience goes out the window.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 d00mspire wrote:
The reason I ask this question is because my next project is a mechanised Imperial Army, made up of tanks.

Something like this:
Astra Militarum Tank Company/Artillery Company
Imperial Knight
Space Marines Tank Company (Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators)

This, without fielding any foot soldiers. The only models on foot would be the Techpriests and the Servitors.

You realize that both of those can be made with supplement material, right?

The Cadian unique detachment has the ability to run an all-tank list barring Techpriests(which are mandatory parts of the formations) and Angels of Death for Marines comes with a unique detachment called the "Anvil Strike Force" which is all tanks barring a few options for Techmarines(which also mandate you take a Rhino, unlike the Cadian one which have no transport options for the Techpriests).

Honestly if you want to use both at normal scale you're probably going to be skipping the meta-detachments and just taking Armoured Company (Tank Commander, 3 Russ squadrons, 1-3 Enginseers) and Armoured Task Force (Techmarine, 3-5 Predator/Vindicator/Whirlwind, 0-3 Thunderfire cannons, 0-1 Chronus) formations separately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
No, its a problem with Unbound (not that Battleforged is really any better at this point between allies and formation freebies) but with Unbound, you cant say "bring anything" and then call people dbags when they do. People will do what the rules allow, if things arent intended to be done the rules should exclude that.

Besides, a pair of Warhounds can in theory be just as fluffy as anything else. Warhounds typically operate in pairs as scouting elements for Tital Legions, surely a scouing Warhound maniple encountering a Speed Freaks ork raiding force wouldnt be unfluffy would it? One sided and brutal, but not unfluffy.

This is why games typically have coherent army construction rules that dont allow things like this, which are inherently and fundamentally issues with Unbound.

So an army consisting of six scatterbikes and a Farseer (277pts) per Titan is somehow better or more sensible than one that just takes Titans?

 Vaktathi wrote:
but with Unbound, you cant say "bring anything" and then call people dbags when they do

This misunderstanding might be the actual reason why there is still a stigma. The social rule "bring a fun list" doesn't change into "bring anyting" when your army construction rules change into it. The "bring a fun list" social rule is and was never connected to the method of constructing an army. It doesn't matter if he is bringing a Bound tournament winning net list to a casual gaming night or a unbound variation of the same list. If it breaks the unwritten rules you can say something about that.

 Selym wrote:
Yes, but do you /need/ those?

Do I need the Codex Matt Ward decided needed to be nerfed to hell, chopped up, and scattered through four army books?

I'd like to think so.

What Vaktathi said, You cant say, oh run an unbound army, and then refuse to play it. Thats like saying play what ever you want so long as i think its fair, which is subjective.

Unbound let me do stupid stuff like this, so you cant say unbound is fine, then refuse to play my 2 titan army against your 1500 bound army.

Im not going to tactical objectives, im going for table at that point., each turn i am either going to be destroying a squad or blowing up a vehicle/building to waste you.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
What Vaktathi said, You cant say, oh run an unbound army, and then refuse to play it. Thats like saying play what ever you want so long as i think its fair, which is subjective.

Again the rule is and was always " Thats like saying play what ever you want so long as i think its fair ". This is exactly the argument you use when you choose not to play against a battle forged army.
If somebody showed up with the winning supper fiends Tournament list of last month to your casual gaming night you would say precisely that. Noting has changed from switching to Unbound.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
but with Unbound, you cant say "bring anything" and then call people dbags when they do

This misunderstanding might be the actual reason why there is still a stigma. The social rule "bring a fun list" doesn't change to "bring anyting" when you allowed unbound it was still "bring a fun list". The only thing that changed was how his army would be allowed to be constructed. It doesn't matter if he is bringing a Bound tournament winning net list to a casual gaming night or a unbound variation of the same list. If it breaks the unwritten rules you can say something about that.

What constitutes "fun" varies greatly. Someone may think the two titan list is fun and fluffy.

Rules on army construction exist to help funnel that into a more managable range, in addition to limiting scale creep as well as to give some semblance of organization to the forces being fielded.

 AnomanderRake wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
No, its a problem with Unbound (not that Battleforged is really any better at this point between allies and formation freebies) but with Unbound, you cant say "bring anything" and then call people dbags when they do. People will do what the rules allow, if things arent intended to be done the rules should exclude that.

Besides, a pair of Warhounds can in theory be just as fluffy as anything else. Warhounds typically operate in pairs as scouting elements for Tital Legions, surely a scouing Warhound maniple encountering a Speed Freaks ork raiding force wouldnt be unfluffy would it? One sided and brutal, but not unfluffy.

This is why games typically have coherent army construction rules that dont allow things like this, which are inherently and fundamentally issues with Unbound.

So an army consisting of six scatterbikes and a Farseer (277pts) per Titan is somehow better or more sensible than one that just takes Titans?

I did point out that Battleforged isnt really any better at this point in practice. However that is largely a problem of execution, whereas Unbounds issues arise from its fundamental nature.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
But really, with the amount of force options anymore is unbound really needed?

I challenge you to make one of the following armies while remaining Battle forged
-Speedcult army without spamming up on grots, boyz or using oop Forge world rules.
-A decent mek / scrap themed ork army that uses looted wagons as transports.
-Mono Inquisitor army with just 1 HQ instead of spamming inquisitors all over the place
-Kroot army.

Inquisition was one of the armies I mentioned. I've made pretty decent lists however using codex assassin detachments despite this.

Speedfreaks also use vehicles, not just bikes, this sounds like the Dark Angle Deathwing player whine.... Blitz Brigade (which you should use anyway right?) with a CAD can be pretty effective. (CAD gets you any bikes or deffkopters you want, the boyz ride in the blitz brigade.

Kroot Army-This one is easy, Kroot are Troops last I checked....make a kroot army? There are also TWO formations with kroot in them. The Allied advance Cadre is really the "Kroot" formation however, and the bonuses are pretty nice.

IMO, when GW made unbound an official option it was the official death of any form of interest in game balance, or game play by GW plc.
Now they have gone fully after the 'collectors and children' who do not play the games or do not care about the rules.

So you may see why players who care bout game play and game balance treat unbound with the contempt it deserves ,(in their opinion. )

 sfshilo wrote:
[
Inquisition was one of the armies I mentioned. I've made pretty decent lists however using codex assassin detachments despite this.

Thats an assassim army not a mono inq army.

Speedfreaks also use vehicles, not just bikes, this sounds like the Dark Angle Deathwing player whine.... Blitz Brigade (which you should use anyway right?) with a CAD can be pretty effective. (CAD gets you any bikes or deffkopters you want, the boyz ride in the blitz brigade.

Have fun pooring buggies, bikes and deffkopta's into cads you soon notice that you only have 3 fast attack slots and that all things you really want to field in a speed cult are you guessed it fast attack.
There are no formations for bikes, buggies or deffkopta's

Kroot Army-This one is easy, Kroot are Troops last I checked....make a kroot army?

yeah some of the kroot are troops right. But what about HQ's sure you can make a CAD army and just leave it home but that would be a unbound army woudn't it ?

There are also TWO formations with kroot in them. The Allied advance Cadre is really the "Kroot" formation however, and the bonuses are pretty nice.

There is one really the Allied Advance Cadre. The other one is appoc only or has stinky fishes in them but even with this formation you are forced also to take vespids and it only has troop kroot. It doesn't have any other of the kroot options.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Reason Unbound lists are not fun.

Warhound titan 720
-Double barrel Laser Destroyer
-Double Barrel Laser Destroyer

Warhound Titan: 720
-Vulken Mega bolter
-Blasma Blast Canon

1440 pts list, and it total a legal unbound list.

sit in a corner and blast everything. Only thing thats gonna hurt it is if you get into melee with Str8+ weapons, which even then, they can stop and on a 6, anything under a blast template is just dead, on a 3-5, they take a S6 wound so.

Your not gonna have a good time.

Craftworld Warhost Detachment

Windrider Host:
115 Farseer jetbike
50 Warlock Conclave 1 model jetbike
81 3 scatterbikes
81 3 scatterbikes
81 3 scatterbikes
40 Vyper no upgrades

295 Wraithknight
295 Wraithknight
295 Wraithknight

1,335pts. Bound is better how, exactly?

Bam.
That Bound list is easily better.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
What Vaktathi said, You cant say, oh run an unbound army, and then refuse to play it. Thats like saying play what ever you want so long as i think its fair, which is subjective.

Unbound let me do stupid stuff like this, so you cant say unbound is fine, then refuse to play my 2 titan army against your 1500 bound army.

Im not going to tactical objectives, im going for table at that point., each turn i am either going to be destroying a squad or blowing up a vehicle/building to waste you.

Did you see oldzoggy's post? It costs an extra 70 points to be battleforged and bring a titan. Unbound is fine. It's 40k as a whole that's the problem, (being able to take gak like warhounds in a 1000 point game) not people being able to take what they want without being boxed into a corner.

This Warhound example is not helpful.

Titans and Unbound are two very different things: Force Organization and Unit Restrictions. A casual tournament format can allow Unbound and still disallow all Lords of War, for example. And I think any Imperial Combined Arms Detachment can take a Warhound without being Unbound.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Reason Unbound lists are not fun.

Warhound titan 720
-Double barrel Laser Destroyer
-Double Barrel Laser Destroyer

Warhound Titan: 720
-Vulken Mega bolter
-Blasma Blast Canon

1440 pts list, and it total a legal unbound list.

sit in a corner and blast everything. Only thing thats gonna hurt it is if you get into melee with Str8+ weapons, which even then, they can stop and on a 6, anything under a blast template is just dead, on a 3-5, they take a S6 wound so.

Your not gonna have a good time.

Craftworld Warhost Detachment

Windrider Host:
115 Farseer jetbike
50 Warlock Conclave 1 model jetbike
81 3 scatterbikes
81 3 scatterbikes
81 3 scatterbikes
40 Vyper no upgrades

295 Wraithknight
295 Wraithknight
295 Wraithknight

1,335pts. Bound is better how, exactly?

Bam.
That Bound list is easily better.

And I can make an even better unbound version by removing the warlock and vyper for more scatbikes.

When 7th Edition came out, I had the same reaction as everyone else. "Wow you could take an army of all Riptides. Can't have that."

But now look at the current state of the game. There's a formation of 3 Riptides AND they get formation bonuses AND all tournaments allow it BUT it's still not winning tournaments! So the question above is instructive: It's hard to make an Unbound list that's much better than a Battle-Forged list because units outside of a Formation in an Unbound army do not gain command benefits.

Of course, we'd still need something to prevent all-Wraithknight lists, which is why restrictions on Gargantuans and/or Lords of War are still important whether or not Unbound is allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

And I can make an even better unbound version by removing the warlock and vyper for more scatbikes.

Would those Scatbikes be Objective Secured? If not, it's not better.

Why does that matter? You can't hold objectives when you're dead.

would depend if you are going for table or not

Let's have a more useful exercise: Create the best Unbound army that otherwise adheres to ITC or another big tournament army construction format. That means only one Super-heavy or Gargantuan Monstrous Creature, nothing larger than an Imperial Knight, and only some big Forgeworld units allowed.

(Also no Come the Apocalypse allies, no more than one duplicate Formation, only one Fortification, etc. here https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/ )

Is this best Unbound army really better than Battle-Forged armies that win big tournaments?

My point is that these other restrictions are much more important than excluding Unbound.

Example: Take a Crisis Suit with 2x weapons. Repeat as many times as needed until you have your desired army. Use an Ethereal or Commander to be your Warlord if the rules require an HQ warlord. Its an MSU nightmare that can handle any threat via shooting and deathstars hate this kind of army as big units can't easily take out multiple units in a time efficient manner.