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2016/08/24 19:06:43
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
I changed my Avatar for the LEO's who are being sniped/ambush and getting opt out. Want to throw that out there before someone pulls the trigger on me with a perception that, to me, LEO do no wrong. Aimed at the new peeps in Dakka OT. You Crusty Scrubs who been posting here already know my sense of.....common damn sense
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
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2016/08/24 19:19:30
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm starting to wonder, should the county/city level police forces not be abolished and replaced with expanded state forces who I'm assuming will be better trained and have more accountably. With independent organisations policing them, with the FBI as oversight?
Something needs to change.
Trevor Noah on the Daily Show last month had a good piece on the expectations society places on police to handle so many varied duties that it isn't possible for police to function properly. If we expect police to handle armed threats, traffic violations, mental health issues, and everything else in between, all that is created is a recipe for disaster.
If some of the currently assigned police duties could be relieved by organizations better trained to handle specific scenarios (like a mental health call) perhaps we'd have less incidents of cops killing innocent people.
Police also need to grow some fething balls and not act like every person is a goddamned threat.
I wonder if the policy for police departments to actively hire ex-combat veterans needs to be re-examined. I am not knocking on combat vets, but I personally don't want someone trained to function in a war zone to be seen as an asset hire for a civilian police force. Some of those ex-soldiers have mental health issues related to their deployments and "Ex-soldier = Good Cop" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The vet policy definitely needs to be re-examined. Again, no offence to vets, but I really think many of them are not prime police candidates.
Also I love the idea of the police being forced to pay for their own mistakes rather than the public. I said this before but is it not possible to pass laws stating that payouts by the police for these incidents should come from their pension pots/union funds rather than the city treasury? I guarantee that would shape them up.
once again you say something very offensive and I would even call ignorant. What you don't understand is the escalation of force training we receive, and the understanding of the consequences of our actions is much better than current civilian law enforcement. So Please stop once again tossing all vets into the blood lusty khornate pool you seem to think we are all swimming in. In fact I would say Soldiers and Marines have a much better grip on reality then those who have sat comfortably and never sacrificed. I tell you I purposely play nice, cause I have no desire to be incarcerated away from my family. I did it for 3 years already voluntarily.
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2016/08/24 19:19:59
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Questions surround IMPD officer's shooting of homeowner
Police still don't know what the nine-year Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department veteran said, if anything, to an armed east-side homeowner before shooting him once in the stomach early Tuesday.
Questions remain about how homeowner Carl Williams, 48, who called police to say his wife was robbed at gunpoint, approached officers as they arrived at the scene.
It's unclear if what Williams was wearing matched the description of the robbery suspect, or whether he raised his weapon before being wounded.
But officials are certain that the incident should not have ended with the man hospitalized after being shot by one of the very officers he called for help.
"Our homeowner, the individual who was trying his best protect himself and his wife from any other harm, was shot mistakenly by our officers," IMPD Maj. Richard Riddle said during a Tuesday afternoon news conference. "This incident occurred within a few seconds, and those judgment calls are made within a few split seconds.
"She was victimized, and unfortunately now, her husband was victimized as well."
According to IMPD Assistant Chief Randal Taylor, the investigation began shortly before 4:30 a.m., when a man called 911 and said an armed suspect stole his wife’s car keys in front of the couple’s home in the 3600 block of Foxtail Drive on the east side, and drove off in their black Nissan Sentra.
IMPD Assistant Chief Randal Taylor provides an updateBuy Photo
IMPD Assistant Chief Randal Taylor provides an update on the officer-involved shooting that wounded an innocent homeowner. (Photo: Michael Anthony Adams / IndyStar)
The homeowner, who is black, described the suspect who robbed his wife as a black man wearing a red shirt and carrying a rifle. In an edited 911 call played during the news conference, the man can be heard referring to the suspect's weapon as a "long gun."
While on the call with dispatchers, the homeowner wife's can he heard sobbing and frantically trying to explain what happened in the background. The homeowner does his best to comfort her.
"It's OK. It's OK," the homeowner repeats.
At the end of the 911 call, the homeowner can be heard shouting "Is that him?" in reference to the possible suspect. The 911 call then disconnects, and dispatchers are unable to reconnect with the homeowner.
INDIANAPOLIS STAR
Fatal shootings by IMPD increase in 2015, but sketchy data nationally hinder deep analysis
At no point does the homeowner tell dispatchers that he is armed.
When they arrived outside the home, officers saw a black Nissan sedan backed into the driveway with the lights on, Taylor said. Officers took cover and ran the plates of the vehicle.
But before police could learn who owned the car, the garage door opened and the homeowner came out.
That is when nine-year veteran Officer Christopher Mills shot Williams once in the abdomen, Taylor said. It's unclear if more rounds were fired. A second officer on the scene, an eight-year veteran, did not fire his weapon.
In the 911 call, no vocal exchange could be heard between the homeowner and officer who fired his weapon. Riddle and Taylor said it was still unclear whether the officer gave any verbal commands to the homeowner.
Williams' handgun was recovered from the home, but there was no indication that Williams raised his weapon, fired his weapon or brandished it in a threatening way.
Investigators have not spoken with the officer who fired his weapon or the homeowner who was wounded. Williams was rushed into surgery before detectives could question him, Riddle said, and the officer did not release a statement before seeking counsel. He’s been placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of an investigation, which is standard in officer-involved shootings.
After the shooting, Williams was taken to IU Health Methodist Hospital in serious condition. He is expected to survive.
"This was a tragic event with numerous circumstance that collided all at once," Taylor said. "Our thoughts and prayers are with the homeowner."
The robber, who held Williams’ wife at gunpoint and took her car keys, had fled before police arrived. Riddle said it doesn't appear that the suspect got away with anything else, but he remains on the loose.
“Police are given pretty sketchy information most of the time,” said Thomas J. Aveni, executive director of the Police Policy Studies Council, a law enforcement training and consultation corporation.
When officers arrive at a scene, Aveni said, they only know what callers have told dispatchers. Accurate suspect descriptions and detailed explanations of suspected crimes are rare, making it difficult for officers to know what they’re walking into.
Aveni, a former officer, said factors such as light, proximity and disposition of the gun would also play a role in an officer's decision to use deadly force.
Although it was dark Tuesday morning when officers arrived, it’s unclear how far away police were from the homeowner when he was shot.
Chris Grollnek, an expert on active shooter situations, told IndyStar it falls on police departments "to do community policing and teach people that, if you call the police, and you're calling them to report a (person) with a gun, don't be the (person) with a gun when they show up.
"Everybody can blame police and everybody can blame the homeowner, but that's callous," said Grollnek, a retired officer from the McKinney Police Department in Texas. "I'm not blaming either; what I'm saying is, the challenge is reinventing the police role in communities."
Grollnek suggests officers need to spread this message on their beats: "If you are a responsible gun owner, this is how to be a responsible gun owner when you call the police."
At Tuesday's press conference, when asked whether IMPD would recommend homeowners not protect themselves in a similar situation, Riddle said callers should use caution.
"If you call 911, and you know the officers are on their way, clearly we have guns, and the last thing that we want to do is confront a legal owner of a firearm and a homeowner that's doing their best to protect their family," Riddle said.
By Tuesday afternoon, the neighborhood near 38th Street and German Church Road appeared to return to normal. Children zigzagged through streets, playing a pickup game of basketball in the sunshine. Neighbors returned from work, checked their mail and walked their dogs.
Several were unconcerned about what transpired just hours before.
April Davidson, 41, said she was awakened by the sound of gunshots Tuesday morning, but she didn't stay up for long.
“It scared me,” she said. “I waited a minute, and I peeked out my window, and I didn’t see anything, so I just laid back down.”
She said too many of the details are still too shaky — whether or not the victim had identified himself to police and told them he was armed — for her to draw conclusions about what happened.
Jabari Lewis, 32, lives next door to the victim. He heard gunshots, he said, but he didn’t get out of bed until the police sirens came.
When he looked out his front door, investigators were wrapping crime scene tape around his mailbox.
Lewis said the shooting was unfortunate, but he’s comforted in knowing that his neighbor is expected to live. If he had died, it would have been tragic.
He said it’s alarming to have a shooting happen next door, but other details concern him more right now.
“I think that what’s more unsettling is that the (carjacker) is on the loose, the suspect was not captured,” Lewis said.
3000
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2016/08/24 20:21:09
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm starting to wonder, should the county/city level police forces not be abolished and replaced with expanded state forces who I'm assuming will be better trained and have more accountably. With independent organisations policing them, with the FBI as oversight?
Something needs to change.
Trevor Noah on the Daily Show last month had a good piece on the expectations society places on police to handle so many varied duties that it isn't possible for police to function properly. If we expect police to handle armed threats, traffic violations, mental health issues, and everything else in between, all that is created is a recipe for disaster.
If some of the currently assigned police duties could be relieved by organizations better trained to handle specific scenarios (like a mental health call) perhaps we'd have less incidents of cops killing innocent people.
Police also need to grow some fething balls and not act like every person is a goddamned threat.
I wonder if the policy for police departments to actively hire ex-combat veterans needs to be re-examined. I am not knocking on combat vets, but I personally don't want someone trained to function in a war zone to be seen as an asset hire for a civilian police force. Some of those ex-soldiers have mental health issues related to their deployments and "Ex-soldier = Good Cop" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The vet policy definitely needs to be re-examined. Again, no offence to vets, but I really think many of them are not prime police candidates.
Also I love the idea of the police being forced to pay for their own mistakes rather than the public. I said this before but is it not possible to pass laws stating that payouts by the police for these incidents should come from their pension pots/union funds rather than the city treasury? I guarantee that would shape them up.
once again you say something very offensive and I would even call ignorant. What you don't understand is the escalation of force training we receive, and the understanding of the consequences of our actions is much better than current civilian law enforcement. So Please stop once again tossing all vets into the blood lusty khornate pool you seem to think we are all swimming in. In fact I would say Soldiers and Marines have a much better grip on reality then those who have sat comfortably and never sacrificed. I tell you I purposely play nice, cause I have no desire to be incarcerated away from my family. I did it for 3 years already voluntarily.
You should try to stop straw manning what is being said. Combat veterans have higher rates of mental health issues. That is not opinion, that is fact. That doesn't mean that every veteran is "blood lusty" or a problem, but what is being asked is, "does that pool of candidates deserve the preferential treatment for hiring they currently do?" It is worth looking into. If there is any data on which officer involved shoots involved former veterans that would be interesting to look over.
Also, your bit of:
redleger wrote: Soldiers and Marines have a much better grip on reality then those who have sat comfortably and never sacrificed.
Is just broad-brush painting bs.
2016/08/24 20:41:55
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
JohnHwangDD wrote: The easiest way to prevent police shootings of civilians is to mandate that DAs charge officers to the fullest extent of the law. If every police shooting starts out with a Murder 1 indictment, that changes the entire force calculus.
DAs should indict on whatever charges are actually supported by the evidence found by the state mandated investigations of every officer involved shooting.
The DA in Baltimore leveled a whole lot of very severe charges and they all got tossed out by a judge due to lack of evidence so improperly charging cops is an unethical waste of time.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2016/08/24 20:43:31
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm starting to wonder, should the county/city level police forces not be abolished and replaced with expanded state forces who I'm assuming will be better trained and have more accountably. With independent organisations policing them, with the FBI as oversight?
Vaktathi wrote: As much as I'd admire that approach, it might be easier just to take the penalty judgements from lawsuits out of the union pension fund instead of a taxpayer funded insurance payout.
Damn. That would be great. The blue wall of silence might crack then and cops might actually start being ethical feths who report the bad apples around them.
You're not going to be able to punish the officers like that unless you got the courts to take away their qualified immunity. If cops are convicted of a crime they should go to prison like any other criminal so pushing the union would be unethical and unnecessary and if they're not guilty of criminal wrongdoing it's difficult to find them liable in civil court when they have qualified immunity.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2016/08/24 20:49:18
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm starting to wonder, should the county/city level police forces not be abolished and replaced with expanded state forces who I'm assuming will be better trained and have more accountably. With independent organisations policing them, with the FBI as oversight?
Something needs to change.
Trevor Noah on the Daily Show last month had a good piece on the expectations society places on police to handle so many varied duties that it isn't possible for police to function properly. If we expect police to handle armed threats, traffic violations, mental health issues, and everything else in between, all that is created is a recipe for disaster.
If some of the currently assigned police duties could be relieved by organizations better trained to handle specific scenarios (like a mental health call) perhaps we'd have less incidents of cops killing innocent people.
Police also need to grow some fething balls and not act like every person is a goddamned threat.
I wonder if the policy for police departments to actively hire ex-combat veterans needs to be re-examined. I am not knocking on combat vets, but I personally don't want someone trained to function in a war zone to be seen as an asset hire for a civilian police force. Some of those ex-soldiers have mental health issues related to their deployments and "Ex-soldier = Good Cop" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The vet policy definitely needs to be re-examined. Again, no offence to vets, but I really think many of them are not prime police candidates.
Also I love the idea of the police being forced to pay for their own mistakes rather than the public. I said this before but is it not possible to pass laws stating that payouts by the police for these incidents should come from their pension pots/union funds rather than the city treasury? I guarantee that would shape them up.
once again you say something very offensive and I would even call ignorant. What you don't understand is the escalation of force training we receive, and the understanding of the consequences of our actions is much better than current civilian law enforcement. So Please stop once again tossing all vets into the blood lusty khornate pool you seem to think we are all swimming in. In fact I would say Soldiers and Marines have a much better grip on reality then those who have sat comfortably and never sacrificed. I tell you I purposely play nice, cause I have no desire to be incarcerated away from my family. I did it for 3 years already voluntarily.
You should try to stop straw manning what is being said. Combat veterans have higher rates of mental health issues. That is not opinion, that is fact. That doesn't mean that every veteran is "blood lusty" or a problem, but what is being asked is, "does that pool of candidates deserve the preferential treatment for hiring they currently do?" It is worth looking into. If there is any data on which officer involved shoots involved former veterans that would be interesting to look over.
Also, your bit of:
redleger wrote: Soldiers and Marines have a much better grip on reality then those who have sat comfortably and never sacrificed.
Is just broad-brush painting bs.
Cultist is the one consistently making inflammatory remarks, hell in this very thread he said all LEOs deserve what they get, now he's going after veterans. So its not a straw man, I am actually refuting what he is implying, not a different implication.
You show me data that veteran mental health issues has anything to do with LEO rates of bad shootings and Ill fly to your house and eat my own shoe in front of you. Second, military training and job performance are usually the last thing that suffers when a Combat Veteran suffers from any form of adjustment issues. Thirdly the PTSD card has been very blown out of proportion, and leads to horrible stereotypes, which are being perpetuated on this very thread. I have argued police training is bad, and could probably benefit from more veterans or military type training as far as weapons discipline is concerned, but it is not a strawman to say it is offensive that you suggest veteran hiring has anything to do with LEO unjustified shootings.
As to the second part, I would say you never truly appreciate something until you have had to sacrifice it, or go without. The majority of the non veterans on this very forum, from any country do not know what they do not know. When you have been left on top of a mountain for 3 months with more ammo than food, and given a mission that is usually reserved for a battalion, and you have 28 dudes oh and BTW the Australians that are supposed to feed you keep sending you raw lamb grudgingly then you learn to appreciate what you have. So to say you do not have a grip on sacrifice as a civilian population is accurate from my point of view, because not having your favorite item in stock at a local store is not necessarily doing without. I have missed a total of 3 years of my oldest daughters life, 2 of my middle, 1 of my youngest, 2 weeks after she was born none the less. So I know going without. Can the majority of civilians say they truly understand this? I am not saying it makes us better, I'm saying it gives us a better grip on what its like to truly appreciate these things.
Now if we could get off the war veteran hate, I think we can all agree absolutely that getting out of a car waving your hands in the air is not a reason to get shot. I for one think there is more to the story, but either way unless a weapon was found, I can't think how this could be justified.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 20:50:59
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2016/08/24 21:22:05
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Think the title need to be changed sine this incident happen way waaayyy past the point of a traffic stop. The guy went seven miles before even stopping
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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2016/08/24 21:26:53
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Iron_Captain wrote: Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.
The good news? It's not racism, they are just as happy to shoot white people who look at them funny.
Yeah which begs the question if it's really racism or just police brutality in general. Not saying police don't have a hard job. Still something's going around.
redleger wrote: You show me data that veteran mental health issues has anything to do with LEO rates of bad shootings and Ill fly to your house and eat my own shoe in front of you.
I never made the claim that data existed. Go back and actually read my post without a chip on your shoulder and you'll see what is actually being discussed here.
redleger wrote: [is offensive that you suggest veteran hiring has anything to do with LEO unjustified shootings.
It is offensive to ask if there might be a connection between bad shoots and police departments favoring hiring combat veterans who are statistically more likely to have mental issues related to their military service?
That is asinine. Every rock should be uncovered in order to change the tide of police violence against civilians.
redleger wrote: [As to the second part, I would say you never truly appreciate something until you have had to sacrifice it, or go without. The majority of the non veterans on this very forum, from any country do not know what they do not know. When you have been left on top of a mountain for 3 months with more ammo than food, and given a mission that is usually reserved for a battalion, and you have 28 dudes oh and BTW the Australians that are supposed to feed you keep sending you raw lamb grudgingly then you learn to appreciate what you have. So to say you do not have a grip on sacrifice as a civilian population is accurate from my point of view, because not having your favorite item in stock at a local store is not necessarily doing without. I have missed a total of 3 years of my oldest daughters life, 2 of my middle, 1 of my youngest, 2 weeks after she was born none the less. So I know going without. Can the majority of civilians say they truly understand this? I am not saying it makes us better, I'm saying it gives us a better grip on what its like to truly appreciate these things.
Thanks for your service and all that, but no one cares about any of what you have written above. You lost three years of your life. Were you drafted or did you volunteer? You claim that all of your sacrifices don't make you better, but it sure seems like you feel superior to those who have "sat comfortably and never sacrificed", even more telling is your anger at the mere suggestion that there could possibly be a connection between police violence and the personal histories of those officers perpetrating that violence.
You are trying to make this emotional when it shouldn't be. Hard questions need to be asked because people are dying. The fact that you can't even broach the question of whether or not favoring veterans for police hiring could potentially be aiding in the violent responses from police against civilians is further evidence of your bias.
redleger wrote: [Now if we could get off the war veteran hate
No one is hating on veterans dude.
2016/08/24 21:49:00
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
jmurph wrote: Because penalizing a retirement system for the actions of bad actors is bonkers?
The suggestion was mostly tongue in cheek in case that wasn't clear (and plainly legally untenable ), though it would provide an incentive for the good cops to dump the bad ones more readily, as currently damages awards dont appear to have any meaningful impact as those responsible are not the ones that bear the burden of the costs.
That said, some changes to qualified immunity may be in order.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/08/24 21:49:53
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
redleger wrote: You show me data that veteran mental health issues has anything to do with LEO rates of bad shootings and Ill fly to your house and eat my own shoe in front of you.
I never made the claim that data existed. Go back and actually read my post without a chip on your shoulder and you'll see what is actually being discussed here.
redleger wrote: [is offensive that you suggest veteran hiring has anything to do with LEO unjustified shootings.
It is offensive to ask if there might be a connection between bad shoots and police departments favoring hiring combat veterans who are statistically more likely to have mental issues related to their military service?
That is asinine. Every rock should be uncovered in order to change the tide of police violence against civilians.
Every rock should be uncovered. I am not emotional, I am however flabbergasted at how we went from, wow this shoot was totally unjustified to Veteran hiring should be looked at. I mean literally there is nothing that states it has any effect in this shooting. In fact the Cops being shot by frelling arseholes are usually veterans, not the ones doing the shooting.
Now rephrase that question to "wow, white cop hiring should be looked at. Black cop hiring should be looked at. Red headed cop hiring should be looked at." That is exactly how out of the blue that question was.
redleger wrote: [As to the second part, I would say you never truly appreciate something until you have had to sacrifice it, or go without. The majority of the non veterans on this very forum, from any country do not know what they do not know. When you have been left on top of a mountain for 3 months with more ammo than food, and given a mission that is usually reserved for a battalion, and you have 28 dudes oh and BTW the Australians that are supposed to feed you keep sending you raw lamb grudgingly then you learn to appreciate what you have. So to say you do not have a grip on sacrifice as a civilian population is accurate from my point of view, because not having your favorite item in stock at a local store is not necessarily doing without. I have missed a total of 3 years of my oldest daughters life, 2 of my middle, 1 of my youngest, 2 weeks after she was born none the less. So I know going without. Can the majority of civilians say they truly understand this? I am not saying it makes us better, I'm saying it gives us a better grip on what its like to truly appreciate these things.
Thanks for your service and all that, but no one cares about any of what you have written above. You lost three years of your life. Were you drafted or did you volunteer? You claim that all of your sacrifices don't make you better, but it sure seems like you feel superior to those who have "sat comfortably and never sacrificed", even more telling is your anger at the mere suggestion that there could possibly be a connection between police violence and the personal histories of those officers perpetrating that violence.
I never said I feel superior. I said because of those experiences I understand what bad decisions could lead to. Ask someone who went to prison if they realized how hard it would be. I don't need to, because I have been away. That's all I'm saying. You don't understand. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with you, its just a lack of understanding. And yes I volunteered, which doesn't mean that my understanding of sacrifice is any less significant. It simply means I did it because you can't.
BTW thanks for your service and all that is pretty much a patronization, and on behalf of all veterans I would like to invite you to just say nothing instead. It just sounds disingenuous.
You are trying to make this emotional when it shouldn't be. Hard questions need to be asked because people are dying. The fact that you can't even broach the question of whether or not favoring veterans for police hiring could potentially be aiding in the violent responses from police against civilians is further evidence of your bias.
I can happily and easily broach the question. In fact once again show me any data that the two are related on any quantifiable scale and I will eat my shoe, in person, wearing a pink dress. I will then have a discussion on this. What bothers me is the leap made with no evidence or prior discussion.
redleger wrote: [Now if we could get off the war veteran hate
No one is hating on veterans dude.
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2016/08/24 21:52:14
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Wait, are we equating military service with prison time...?
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/08/24 21:54:14
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Vaktathi wrote: Wait, are we equating military service with prison time...?
Honestly once you sign that dotted line, there are parallels, although not the same thing. Technically you can leave when ever you want, but then you really might end up in prison.
Edit: Being on this desk for 24 hours right now is starting to feel like prison though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 21:55:54
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0022/08/24 22:00:07
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Vaktathi wrote: Wait, are we equating military service with prison time...?
At times I think so back in my days.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
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2016/08/24 22:13:53
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Every rock should be uncovered. I am not emotional, I am however flabbergasted at how we went from, wow this shoot was totally unjustified to Veteran hiring should be looked at. I mean literally there is nothing that states it has any effect in this shooting. In fact the Cops being shot by frelling arseholes are usually veterans, not the ones doing the shooting.
Now rephrase that question to "wow, white cop hiring should be looked at. Black cop hiring should be looked at. Red headed cop hiring should be looked at." That is exactly how out of the blue that question was.
Jeez, man. Quotes. Learn them.
Well, this thread went from discussing a cop shooting a deaf man and evolved to discussing what changes could be made to avoid more idiotic police shoots. That is where veterans came in before you started frothing at the mouth.
redleger wrote: I never said I feel superior. I said because of those experiences I understand what bad decisions could lead to. Ask someone who went to prison if they realized how hard it would be. I don't need to, because I have been away. That's all I'm saying. You don't understand. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with you, its just a lack of understanding. And yes I volunteered, which doesn't mean that my understanding of sacrifice is any less significant. It simply means I did it because you can't.
What exactly do you mean by saying that you volunteered because I "can't"? You do not know anything about me. Again, stick to the fething discussion and stop trying to wear your heart on your service sleeve and make this about hating on veterans.
redleger wrote: [color=green]I can happily and easily broach the question. In fact once again show me any data that the two are related on any
No, you really can't. I simply wondered in the thread if that area of police hiring should be re-examined for the previously documented reason that former military service personnel are more likely to suffer from mental health issues. Then you went full gak storm. That isn't a discussion. That is you trying to use your service history to shut down a conversation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 22:14:28
2016/08/24 22:24:29
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm starting to wonder, should the county/city level police forces not be abolished and replaced with expanded state forces who I'm assuming will be better trained and have more accountably. With independent organisations policing them, with the FBI as oversight?
Something needs to change.
Trevor Noah on the Daily Show last month had a good piece on the expectations society places on police to handle so many varied duties that it isn't possible for police to function properly. If we expect police to handle armed threats, traffic violations, mental health issues, and everything else in between, all that is created is a recipe for disaster.
If some of the currently assigned police duties could be relieved by organizations better trained to handle specific scenarios (like a mental health call) perhaps we'd have less incidents of cops killing innocent people.
Police also need to grow some fething balls and not act like every person is a goddamned threat.
I wonder if the policy for police departments to actively hire ex-combat veterans needs to be re-examined. I am not knocking on combat vets, but I personally don't want someone trained to function in a war zone to be seen as an asset hire for a civilian police force. Some of those ex-soldiers have mental health issues related to their deployments and "Ex-soldier = Good Cop" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The vet policy definitely needs to be re-examined. Again, no offence to vets, but I really think many of them are not prime police candidates.
Also I love the idea of the police being forced to pay for their own mistakes rather than the public. I said this before but is it not possible to pass laws stating that payouts by the police for these incidents should come from their pension pots/union funds rather than the city treasury? I guarantee that would shape them up.
I'd argue that most vets are actually less likely to shoot in a stressful situation, as they are most likely less frightened (or more able to control their fear), better able to evaluate an actual threat (as opposed to an imagined one), and used to ROEs that are much more restrictive than what most police departments go by.
The "psycho war vet" stereotype really needs to go away. Anyone who is pedaling it as a reason why veterans shouldn't be hired by police departments doesn't have any idea what they're talking about.
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm starting to wonder, should the county/city level police forces not be abolished and replaced with expanded state forces who I'm assuming will be better trained and have more accountably. With independent organisations policing them, with the FBI as oversight?
Something needs to change.
Trevor Noah on the Daily Show last month had a good piece on the expectations society places on police to handle so many varied duties that it isn't possible for police to function properly. If we expect police to handle armed threats, traffic violations, mental health issues, and everything else in between, all that is created is a recipe for disaster.
If some of the currently assigned police duties could be relieved by organizations better trained to handle specific scenarios (like a mental health call) perhaps we'd have less incidents of cops killing innocent people.
Police also need to grow some fething balls and not act like every person is a goddamned threat.
I wonder if the policy for police departments to actively hire ex-combat veterans needs to be re-examined. I am not knocking on combat vets, but I personally don't want someone trained to function in a war zone to be seen as an asset hire for a civilian police force. Some of those ex-soldiers have mental health issues related to their deployments and "Ex-soldier = Good Cop" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The vet policy definitely needs to be re-examined. Again, no offence to vets, but I really think many of them are not prime police candidates.
Also I love the idea of the police being forced to pay for their own mistakes rather than the public. I said this before but is it not possible to pass laws stating that payouts by the police for these incidents should come from their pension pots/union funds rather than the city treasury? I guarantee that would shape them up.
I'd argue that most vets are actually less likely to shoot in a stressful situation, as they are most likely less frightened (or more able to control their fear), better able to evaluate an actual threat (as opposed to an imagined one), and used to ROEs that are much more restrictive than what most police departments go by.
The "psycho war vet" stereotype really needs to go away. Anyone who is pedaling it as a reason why veterans shouldn't be hired by police departments doesn't have any idea what they're talking about.
Thank you.
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2016/08/24 22:26:31
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
but Kessler said nearly half of the soldiers who were diagnosed with a mental disorder had it when they enlisted.
Which has nothing to do with combat veterans at all.
And again:
Most suicides occurred back home, not in Afghanistan or Iraq, and the rate has increased among troops who have never been deployed overseas, Kessler said.
So guys who were combat vets suicide LESS than those who are not.
Then there is this:
Despite concerns about the effects of multiple combat tours and shorter stints at home during more than a decade of war, Kessler said veterans appear to fare better than younger soldiers. Those who suffer from mental health problems are "substantially less likely" to re-enlist, while troops on their second or third hitch are more likely to enjoy Army life.
And up at the beginning of the article
rates of many of these disorders are much higher in soldiers than in civilians.
Many disorders. Of course that means it does not hold true for many others. And it sure as gak does not give enough data to determine which those may be let alone come close to proving "Combat veterans have higher rates of mental health issues. "
And this is an article about one study. Not even a link to the study. Your 'fact' that combat vets have higher rates of mental health issues is pretty fething slim on facts.
Pre-enlistment onset disorders were not only more common but also more impairing than disorders with post-enlistment onsets, highlighting the importance of early identification and resilience/prevention interventions. Current mental disorders are much more common among non-deployed U.S. Army soldiers than sociodemographically matched civilians (25.1% vs. 11.6%). The vast majority (76.6%) of such soldiers say their disorders started before enlistment. Nearly 60% of reported soldier suicide attempts were associated with these disorders.
Now, do you have any source to back up your claim that "Combat veterans have higher rates of mental health issues. " And please clarify the 'have higher rates" than... You surely don't mean 'all civilians' because the article you referenced used a study only comparing "sociodemographically matched civilians ".
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2016/08/24 22:39:42
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
Maybe with all these shootings they should have outside help to help regulate things. Pick up the laws and enforcement rules for the U.K., CANADA, IRELAND, SCOTTLAND RUSSIA.
Some outside help may be needed to help sort these things out. Find the laws and training that help enable these type of things by finding what laws are vastly different then those of the countries with far less racial shootings and police shootings.
I need to go to work every day.
Millions of people on welfare depend on me.
2016/08/24 22:42:16
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
but Kessler said nearly half of the soldiers who were diagnosed with a mental disorder had it when they enlisted.
Which has nothing to do with combat veterans at all.
And again:
Most suicides occurred back home, not in Afghanistan or Iraq, and the rate has increased among troops who have never been deployed overseas, Kessler said.
So guys who were combat vets suicide LESS than those who are not.
Then there is this:
Despite concerns about the effects of multiple combat tours and shorter stints at home during more than a decade of war, Kessler said veterans appear to fare better than younger soldiers. Those who suffer from mental health problems are "substantially less likely" to re-enlist, while troops on their second or third hitch are more likely to enjoy Army life.
And up at the beginning of the article
rates of many of these disorders are much higher in soldiers than in civilians.
Many disorders. Of course that means it does not hold true for many others. And it sure as gak does not give enough data to determine which those may be let alone come close to proving "Combat veterans have higher rates of mental health issues. "
And this is an article about one study. Not even a link to the study. Your 'fact' that combat vets have higher rates of mental health issues is pretty fething slim on facts.
Pre-enlistment onset disorders were not only more common but also more impairing than disorders with post-enlistment onsets, highlighting the importance of early identification and resilience/prevention interventions. Current mental disorders are much more common among non-deployed U.S. Army soldiers than sociodemographically matched civilians (25.1% vs. 11.6%). The vast majority (76.6%) of such soldiers say their disorders started before enlistment. Nearly 60% of reported soldier suicide attempts were associated with these disorders.
Now, do you have any source to back up your claim that "Combat veterans have higher rates of mental health issues. " And please clarify the 'have higher rates" than... You surely don't mean 'all civilians' because the article you referenced used a study only comparing "sociodemographically matched civilians ".
That was the first result I found while Googling from work.
A recent report on SUDs in the US Armed Forces (IOM, 2012a) described the present situation as a public health crisis potentially undermining the armed force readiness and psychological fitness. The 2008 Department of Defense Survey of Health Related Behaviors among Active Duty Military Personnel (Bray et al., 2009) established that almost a half of all Active Duty service members (47%) engaged in binge drinking and 20% in heavy drinking in the past 30 days. Misuse of prescription drugs affected 11% of respondents, 30% reported smoking cigarettes, and 10% were heavy cigarette smokers (one pack or more daily). These alcohol and drug-use-related behaviors continue after the discharge from military, especially among those veterans who are having difficulties with successful reintegration into civilian life.
Involvement in warfare can have dramatic consequences for the mental health and well-being of military personnel. During the 20th century, US military psychiatrists tried to deal with these consequences while contributing to the military goal of preserving manpower and reducing the debilitating impact of psychiatric syndromes by implementing screening programs to detect factors that predispose individuals to mental disorders, providing early intervention strategies for acute war-related syndromes, and treating long-term psychiatric disability after deployment.
The success of screening has proven disappointing, the effects of treatment near the front lines are unclear, and the results of treatment for chronic postwar syndromes are mixed.
Although the majority of veterans who return from
Iraq and Afghanistan do not have a behavioral health
condition and have not experienced a traumatic brain
injury,3
all veterans experience a period of readjustment
as they reintegrate into life with family, friends, and
community. The veterans’ juggling of military and
family responsibilities, reintegration into civilian life in
the United States after living in unfamiliar settings, and
processing exposure to combat may contribute to problems
for veterans themselves, as well as their spouses and
family members.4, 5 Behaviors needed to survive in a war
zone, such as maintaining a constant state of alertness,
may initially translate into troublesome behaviors in
civilian life, such as feeling edgy or jumpy and being
easily startled.
Is that good material for a police officer? I don't think it is. I don't want jumpy, trigger happy people in law enforcement.
My point is, these factors should be looked at. Veterans, especially combat veterans, should not be given the preferential treatment for hiring that they currently get if these other factors could be contributing to the police on civilian violence.
2016/08/24 22:44:41
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
OgreChubbs wrote: Maybe with all these shootings they should have outside help to help regulate things. Pick up the laws and enforcement rules for the U.K., CANADA, IRELAND, SCOTTLAND RUSSIA.
Some outside help may be needed to help sort these things out. Find the laws and training that help enable these type of things by finding what laws are vastly different then those of the countries with far less racial shootings and police shootings.
I absolutely think there should be some laws adopted, call it a hybrid law set between the non-gun toting societies and America. I honestly think there are more factors though. It was nailed down earlier. Cops are scared shitless for some reason. I mean yes its scary, I've been there. But target discrimination and trigger discipline are things that you learn to do even in high stress situations. Maybe there needs to be training on everything up to pulling your weapon, then on when to use it, and then on when to put it away and most importantly when to pull the trigger.
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2016/08/24 22:47:47
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
The "psycho war vet" stereotype really needs to go away. Anyone who is pedaling it as a reason why veterans shouldn't be hired by police departments doesn't have any idea what they're talking about.
Which isn't being said at all. Again. What I am suggesting and others are misinterpreting, is that veteran status shouldn't be an automatic positive on a police application. It shouldn't be considered a merit to have served in the military, especially in a combat role, to police civilians. No one is advocating that ex-soldiers can't and shouldn't be cops. Rather, they should be evaluated like everyone else, and potentially more so, since they could be carrying some baggage with them that makes them inappropriate for a role in law enforcement.
2016/08/24 22:49:41
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
OgreChubbs wrote: Maybe with all these shootings they should have outside help to help regulate things. Pick up the laws and enforcement rules for the U.K., CANADA, IRELAND, SCOTTLAND RUSSIA.
Some outside help may be needed to help sort these things out. Find the laws and training that help enable these type of things by finding what laws are vastly different then those of the countries with far less racial shootings and police shootings.
I absolutely think there should be some laws adopted, call it a hybrid law set between the non-gun toting societies and America. I honestly think there are more factors though. It was nailed down earlier. Cops are scared shitless for some reason. I mean yes its scary, I've been there. But target discrimination and trigger discipline are things that you learn to do even in high stress situations. Maybe there needs to be training on everything up to pulling your weapon, then on when to use it, and then on when to put it away and most importantly when to pull the trigger.
I do not even just mean gun laws I mean look at the police and community aswell.
What are the hours more cops work, is over time encouraged or accepted, are they under man? Is the training uptodate? are they taught everything is a threat ect.
One thing I noticed from CNN if it is true or not I can't say but they had some cops on who said "All traffic stops, and interactions with the public need to be taken seriously and as life threatening"
Couple of my friends said that was scary because when he was training for the Mounties they said the first rule was to treat everyone like they needed help and that you are their to make sure they get the help they need weither it is a ambulance or the drunnk tank".
I need to go to work every day.
Millions of people on welfare depend on me.
2016/08/24 22:52:28
Subject: North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
One thing I noticed from CNN if it is true or not I can't say but they had some cops on who said "All traffic stops, and interactions with the public need to be taken seriously and as life threatening"
Couple of my friends said that was scary because when he was training for the Mounties they said the first rule was to treat everyone like they needed help and that you are their to make sure they get the help they need weither it is a ambulance or the drunnk tank".
Yeah, the idea that every civilian encountered needs to be treated like the enemy is so wrong minded and does nothing to bridge the gap between police and the public.
The Mounties seem to have the perspective!
2016/08/24 23:00:46
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
That's the main problem right there. If that's their idea of good training, treating everyone as a hostile who needs to be shot at the slightest provocation then they're idiots.
That and the 'respect mah authority' mentality a lot of them have too. I've seen the YouTube videos. Thuggish power tripping scumbags in uniform.
2016/08/24 23:01:15
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
but Kessler said nearly half of the soldiers who were diagnosed with a mental disorder had it when they enlisted.
Which has nothing to do with combat veterans at all.
And again:
Most suicides occurred back home, not in Afghanistan or Iraq, and the rate has increased among troops who have never been deployed overseas, Kessler said.
So guys who were combat vets suicide LESS than those who are not.
Then there is this:
Despite concerns about the effects of multiple combat tours and shorter stints at home during more than a decade of war, Kessler said veterans appear to fare better than younger soldiers. Those who suffer from mental health problems are "substantially less likely" to re-enlist, while troops on their second or third hitch are more likely to enjoy Army life.
And up at the beginning of the article
rates of many of these disorders are much higher in soldiers than in civilians.
Many disorders. Of course that means it does not hold true for many others. And it sure as gak does not give enough data to determine which those may be let alone come close to proving "Combat veterans have higher rates of mental health issues. "
And this is an article about one study. Not even a link to the study. Your 'fact' that combat vets have higher rates of mental health issues is pretty fething slim on facts.
Pre-enlistment onset disorders were not only more common but also more impairing than disorders with post-enlistment onsets, highlighting the importance of early identification and resilience/prevention interventions. Current mental disorders are much more common among non-deployed U.S. Army soldiers than sociodemographically matched civilians (25.1% vs. 11.6%). The vast majority (76.6%) of such soldiers say their disorders started before enlistment. Nearly 60% of reported soldier suicide attempts were associated with these disorders.
Now, do you have any source to back up your claim that "Combat veterans have higher rates of mental health issues. " And please clarify the 'have higher rates" than... You surely don't mean 'all civilians' because the article you referenced used a study only comparing "sociodemographically matched civilians ".
That was the first result I found while Googling from work.
A recent report on SUDs in the US Armed Forces (IOM, 2012a) described the present situation as a public health crisis potentially undermining the armed force readiness and psychological fitness. The 2008 Department of Defense Survey of Health Related Behaviors among Active Duty Military Personnel (Bray et al., 2009) established that almost a half of all Active Duty service members (47%) engaged in binge drinking and 20% in heavy drinking in the past 30 days. Misuse of prescription drugs affected 11% of respondents, 30% reported smoking cigarettes, and 10% were heavy cigarette smokers (one pack or more daily). These alcohol and drug-use-related behaviors continue after the discharge from military, especially among those veterans who are having difficulties with successful reintegration into civilian life.
Involvement in warfare can have dramatic consequences for the mental health and well-being of military personnel. During the 20th century, US military psychiatrists tried to deal with these consequences while contributing to the military goal of preserving manpower and reducing the debilitating impact of psychiatric syndromes by implementing screening programs to detect factors that predispose individuals to mental disorders, providing early intervention strategies for acute war-related syndromes, and treating long-term psychiatric disability after deployment.
The success of screening has proven disappointing, the effects of treatment near the front lines are unclear, and the results of treatment for chronic postwar syndromes are mixed.
Although the majority of veterans who return from
Iraq and Afghanistan do not have a behavioral health
condition and have not experienced a traumatic brain
injury,3
all veterans experience a period of readjustment
as they reintegrate into life with family, friends, and
community. The veterans’ juggling of military and
family responsibilities, reintegration into civilian life in
the United States after living in unfamiliar settings, and
processing exposure to combat may contribute to problems
for veterans themselves, as well as their spouses and
family members.4, 5 Behaviors needed to survive in a war
zone, such as maintaining a constant state of alertness,
may initially translate into troublesome behaviors in
civilian life, such as feeling edgy or jumpy and being
easily startled.
Is that good material for a police officer? I don't think it is. I don't want jumpy, trigger happy people in law enforcement.
My point is, these factors should be looked at. Veterans, especially combat veterans, should not be given the preferential treatment for hiring that they currently get if these other factors could be contributing to the police on civilian violence.
wow, lots of cherry picking there.
re-adjustment issues are usually temporary situation, and as each deployment happens, there is a resilience built up to it. The fact that Soldiers who are able to reintegrate have that resilience and are able to compose themselves in those situations would be a plus not a minus.
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2016/08/24 23:04:42
Subject: Re:North Carolina police shoot deaf man trying to sign at them during traffic stop
The "psycho war vet" stereotype really needs to go away. Anyone who is pedaling it as a reason why veterans shouldn't be hired by police departments doesn't have any idea what they're talking about.
Which isn't being said at all. Again. What I am suggesting and others are misinterpreting, is that veteran status shouldn't be an automatic positive on a police application. It shouldn't be considered a merit to have served in the military, especially in a combat role, to police civilians. No one is advocating that ex-soldiers can't and shouldn't be cops. Rather, they should be evaluated like everyone else, and potentially more so, since they could be carrying some baggage with them that makes them inappropriate for a role in law enforcement.
What makes you think that veterans aren't already evaluated like everyone else?
And why do you think soldiers would treat everyone they meet like an enemy? Not everyone they meet in a combat zone is an enemy, and they have to learn how to deal with non-combatants just as much as they do combatants. There are things called escalation of force, and humanitarian operations. The first is something that pretty much any veteran who would be in a position to use force will learn (over...and over...) and the second is something the military does a lot of - nowadays probably even more often than combat operations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Future War Cultist wrote: That's the main problem right there. If that's their idea of good training, treating everyone as a hostile who needs to be shot at the slightest provocation then they're idiots.
Some good military training would fix that right up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 23:05:39
OgreChubbs wrote: Maybe with all these shootings they should have outside help to help regulate things. Pick up the laws and enforcement rules for the U.K., CANADA, IRELAND, SCOTTLAND RUSSIA.
Some outside help may be needed to help sort these things out. Find the laws and training that help enable these type of things by finding what laws are vastly different then those of the countries with far less racial shootings and police shootings.
The second amendment and the USA's love for guns is part of the problem too but nobody wants to touch that. From the Guardian: By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years (they also have all kinds of stats here). Here's another article (that links to more information and stats) that tries to explain why the rate of fatal police shootings is so much higher in the US.
In the USA you get about 3.4 annual fatal police shootings per million residents while european countries top at 0.2 and only get lower. That's more than one order of magnitude in difference and from what I have read, I don't think just changing some stuff about police training or how this "problem" gets handled when it happens will solve this. Australia, more or less, banned guns when they were fed up with their shootings and it worked by overall lowering gun fatalities.
That's just doesn't seem to be an option in the US. I don't know what number of yearly gun deaths (police or otherwise) would be needed for the US to even start thinking about abolishing the second amendment. I'm not talking about some NYT article or twitter moment but actual and widespread consideration from the government. :/
3000
4000 
), though it would provide an incentive for the good cops to dump the bad ones more readily, as currently damages awards dont appear to have any meaningful impact as those responsible are not the ones that bear the burden of the costs.
