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With all the special attention that GW is lavishing lately on our Space Marine armies, I would like to get dakka's opinion on whether or not there are good "decurion" type formations that even come close to approaching the Gladius in terms of game play, utility, and power.

Most Gladius-type codex structures appear overpowered.
The small formations are usually not too bad, but once you add them into the bigger detachment, it gets silly.
Eldar's always-roll-6 to run and free upgrades is like the free Rhinos for SM, but can be abused just as much. I haven't seen the Necron Decurion, or any others.

Not a marine player but I think it depends on what you are looking for. If you are a powergamer trying to be competitive then think Gladius Strike Force is probably the best. Otherwise I think the others have used if they fit your army and you aren't trying to be a WAAC power gamer

 Skinnereal wrote:
Most Gladius-type codex structures appear overpowered.
The small formations are usually not too bad, but once you add them into the bigger detachment, it gets silly.
Eldar's always-roll-6 to run and free upgrades is like the free Rhinos for SM, but can be abused just as much. I haven't seen the Necron Decurion, or any others.

How is rolling 6s to run on models that are already fleet (average roll of a little less than 5) comparable to getting up to 500points of free transports, army-wide obsec, and ultramarines chapter tactic docrines on top of your regular free CT rules?

Eldar formation bonuses have absolutely nothing on SM ones - the base stat values of a lot of Eldar stuff is just so bonkers that it makes up for it and then some in some cases.

A wraithknight or a scatterbike does not attack you with its stacks of special rules. It just hurls a statline at you.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Not a marine player but I think it depends on what you are looking for. If you are a powergamer trying to be competitive then think Gladius Strike Force is probably the best. Otherwise I think the others have used if they fit your army and you aren't trying to be a WAAC power gamer

This. Remember: 40k is a GAME, and not anyone is playing tournament every week. I like to have a game with my friends, not just to win, but to play with them.

It the detachment that makes marines cost 3 points when you calculate the cost of free transports as actual point cost, powerful ? Yes.

Do BA have similar trick to pull off such extreme point efficiencies ? No

Does this matter as a BA player ? Not really unless all your opponents play at ultra high point efficiencies.

I built my Salamanders as a 30k army I could use in 40k, so I have to be using a CAD to use most of my motor pool.

I have tried the Flameblade Strike Force, and there's something to be said for sending in Sternguard with S5/6 Shred flamer weapons, but the inflexibility isn't really worth it for me.

Playing the full company free transport gladius locks you into a MSU spam build. While powerful in objective games, it’s not for everyone.

The basic gladius, with just the free doctrines, is more balanced with the other detachments out there.

IMHO handing out free stuff should be far more rare. The free transports is too much.

I always run Gladius where I can with my Ultramarines - not because it's OP (I personally don't like the whole free transport MSU style) but because it's fluffy. I always took Demi-Companies even before Formations were a thing, and hated seeing Scouts as the only Troops choice in marine armies - it just felt wrong to see.

Even with Gladius, and when points allow me to go for the full Battle Company, I take ten man squads, because it looks right. Never liked the MSU 5 man teams. Mostly, I'll take the Demi-Company (which actually isn't OP alone. The Gladius isn't OP - the Battle Company is) and an Armoured Taskforce and 1st Company Taskforce, throwing in other formations if I can.
Not to mention I don't even have enough transports to fully abuse the free transport rules.

TL;DR - I use Gladius because it's fluffy, not because of an innate advantage.

Eh i think the DA Battle company is better.

Same requirements, but if you have a full battle company you can over watch a full BS :3

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh i think the DA Battle company is better.

Same requirements, but if you have a full battle company you can over watch a full BS :3

Eh. Your benefit is controlled by your opponent and cc armies are pretty rare.

I think the Gladius is a bit like Scatbikes and Wraithknights. You can still use the other options available but if you're one of those people who just wants the best then you won't use them because the Gladius is better.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Most Gladius-type codex structures appear overpowered.
The small formations are usually not too bad, but once you add them into the bigger detachment, it gets silly.

Eldar formation bonuses have absolutely nothing on SM ones - the base stat values of a lot of Eldar stuff is just so bonkers that it makes up for it and then some in some cases.

The core Eldar formations get either free heavy weapon platforms (up to 180 points) and preferred enemy, free special weapon upgrades (up to 150 points) and preferred enemy, or mega-bladestorm once per game.
Arguable not as good as 500 points though.

 Skinnereal wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Most Gladius-type codex structures appear overpowered.
The small formations are usually not too bad, but once you add them into the bigger detachment, it gets silly.

Eldar formation bonuses have absolutely nothing on SM ones - the base stat values of a lot of Eldar stuff is just so bonkers that it makes up for it and then some in some cases.

The core Eldar formations get either free heavy weapon platforms (up to 180 points) and preferred enemy, free special weapon upgrades (up to 150 points) and preferred enemy, or mega-bladestorm once per game.
Arguable not as good as 500 points though.

Realistically the weapon platforms aren't massively powerful. The Storm guardians and preferred enemy bonus only happen when things are in serious trouble and mega bladestorm is meh when you could have scatter lasers.

The Angels of Death detachments also have the different types of core, so it doesn't lock you into one build. Barring the IF section (it's pretty bad all the way through) they all have new formations like the Pinion and Stormlance Demi Companies. The WS one even has a Hunting Force which goes against all usual Demi Company structure.

 Skinnereal wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Most Gladius-type codex structures appear overpowered.
The small formations are usually not too bad, but once you add them into the bigger detachment, it gets silly.

Eldar formation bonuses have absolutely nothing on SM ones - the base stat values of a lot of Eldar stuff is just so bonkers that it makes up for it and then some in some cases.

The core Eldar formations get either free heavy weapon platforms (up to 180 points) and preferred enemy, free special weapon upgrades (up to 150 points) and preferred enemy, or mega-bladestorm once per game.
Arguable not as good as 500 points though.

Arguably 180 points of free stuff isn't as good as 500 points of free stuff?

Sorry if I seem incredulous here, but...cmon... The only good eldar formation is the Aspect host. That's why that's the only one you see in competitive play. You only take Windrider Host to circumvent the 1 LOW restriction in a cad - if you take it with scatterbikes it provides no benefit at all (IIRC it's a reroll once per game on shuriken weapons?). It just lets you spam WKs with the Wraith-construct add on. Other than that you've got...maybe crimson death?

Eldar are busted because their base units are busted. SMs are busted because some of their formations are busted. Take that away, and you've got...well...blood angels.

 WarbossDakka wrote:
The Angels of Death detachments also have the different types of core, so it doesn't lock you into one build. Barring the IF section (it's pretty bad all the way through) they all have new formations like the Pinion and Stormlance Demi Companies. The WS one even has a Hunting Force which goes against all usual Demi Company structure.

DA, BA, and SW wouldn't know......

the_scotsman wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Most Gladius-type codex structures appear overpowered.
The small formations are usually not too bad, but once you add them into the bigger detachment, it gets silly.

Eldar formation bonuses have absolutely nothing on SM ones - the base stat values of a lot of Eldar stuff is just so bonkers that it makes up for it and then some in some cases.

The core Eldar formations get either free heavy weapon platforms (up to 180 points) and preferred enemy, free special weapon upgrades (up to 150 points) and preferred enemy, or mega-bladestorm once per game.
Arguable not as good as 500 points though.

Arguably 180 points of free stuff isn't as good as 500 points of free stuff?

Sorry if I seem incredulous here, but...cmon... The only good eldar formation is the Aspect host. That's why that's the only one you see in competitive play. You only take Windrider Host to circumvent the 1 LOW restriction in a cad - if you take it with scatterbikes it provides no benefit at all (IIRC it's a reroll once per game on shuriken weapons?). It just lets you spam WKs with the Wraith-construct add on. Other than that you've got...maybe crimson death?

Eldar are busted because their base units are busted. SMs are busted because some of their formations are busted. Take that away, and you've got...well...blood angels.

Yay! Someone else gets it! In fairness, SM would still have invisiblity and grav cannons, but the gulf would be much, much narrower.

Martel732 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Most Gladius-type codex structures appear overpowered.
The small formations are usually not too bad, but once you add them into the bigger detachment, it gets silly.

Eldar formation bonuses have absolutely nothing on SM ones - the base stat values of a lot of Eldar stuff is just so bonkers that it makes up for it and then some in some cases.

The core Eldar formations get either free heavy weapon platforms (up to 180 points) and preferred enemy, free special weapon upgrades (up to 150 points) and preferred enemy, or mega-bladestorm once per game.
Arguable not as good as 500 points though.

Arguably 180 points of free stuff isn't as good as 500 points of free stuff?

Sorry if I seem incredulous here, but...cmon... The only good eldar formation is the Aspect host. That's why that's the only one you see in competitive play. You only take Windrider Host to circumvent the 1 LOW restriction in a cad - if you take it with scatterbikes it provides no benefit at all (IIRC it's a reroll once per game on shuriken weapons?). It just lets you spam WKs with the Wraith-construct add on. Other than that you've got...maybe crimson death?

Eldar are busted because their base units are busted. SMs are busted because some of their formations are busted. Take that away, and you've got...well...blood angels.

Yay! Someone else gets it! In fairness, SM would still have invisiblity and grav cannons, but the gulf would be much, much narrower.

I don't know that anyone's really arguing with you on that point. Where people disagree is your...interesting opinions on just how MUCH of the base Eldar and Tau codexes are broken. Blood Angels are undoubtedly on the level with Guard, Orks, DE, and most Nid stuff, there's good stuff and bad stuff in those codexes but they're all pretty much "the have-nots" at this point.

I think in general people have a really tough time fathoming how balanced the game is when you avoid the top ~10% of competitive stuff in it. My last game was an extremely casual footslogging battle between casual builds of the new Daemon decurion and the Eldar one, and it was a really fun back-and-forth game. Amazingly, if you don't take Wraithknights and Scatbikes on one side and Fateweaver and Screamerstar on the other, people can actually sit down, play 40k, and have fun. Weird, isn't it?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I always run Gladius where I can with my Ultramarines - not because it's OP (I personally don't like the whole free transport MSU style) but because it's fluffy.

I Love this.
I assume that you still pay for your transports or are fielding is as a detachment in an "unbound" army to negate the command benefits?

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I always run Gladius where I can with my Ultramarines - not because it's OP (I personally don't like the whole free transport MSU style) but because it's fluffy.

I Love this.
I assume that you still pay for your transports or are fielding is as a detachment in an "unbound" army to negate the command benefits?

Still bound, but I rarely go to full Battle Company size. I usually just stay with the demi-company.

On the occasions I do go to the full company, I still have free transports, but seeing as I have very few transports and take full sized squads, my usual opponent hasn't got an issue, and it rarely factors into gameplay.

Gladius is really good in game with tons of free stuff and extra bonus rules, but the biggest problem with it isn't that it wins too many games. The biggest problem is that it turns Space marines into the most effective hoard army in 40K. That isn't right. I play Orks and Tyranids. When I play space marines at tournaments I am always out numbered on a model count basis. That isn't right. Space Marines should be elite. Gladius makes a mockery of that.

tag8833 wrote:
Gladius is really good in game with tons of free stuff and extra bonus rules, but the biggest problem with it isn't that it wins too many games. The biggest problem is that it turns Space marines into the most effective hoard army in 40K. That isn't right. I play Orks and Tyranids. When I play space marines at tournaments I am always out numbered on a model count basis. That isn't right. Space Marines should be elite. Gladius makes a mockery of that.

This doesn't set well with me, either. But GW gets to sell a lot of models!

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I always run Gladius where I can with my Ultramarines - not because it's OP (I personally don't like the whole free transport MSU style) but because it's fluffy.

I Love this.
I assume that you still pay for your transports or are fielding is as a detachment in an "unbound" army to negate the command benefits?

Righto, maybe it should be more explicitly clarified that the Gladius does not give free transports by itself. Free transports requires two Demi Companies within the Gladius.

Basic Gladius is a good Formation, nothing OP about it. The thread is most likely referring to the Company Support special rule, which is the hyper competitive set up, but a lot more difficult to achieve due to the dual Demi-Co requirements.

Edit:
IMO, full Battle Company is a very strong build, but it's not necessarily better than what's available through Angels of Death. Styles of play are very different, and many of the AoD macro-builds can include the very, very nasty Skyhammer Annihilation Formation.

I play my Salamanders force because I love their fluff and ya know, the whole "kill it with fire!" thing. I've played casual games and a couple of local tourney games. I agree that in small casual games that our Flameblade Strike Force is interesting and fun to play.

However, in the tournament environment where there is at least some competition, the Gladius beats every other chapter's special detachment hands down. The Gladius is just so much better that taking any other formation feels pointless. The free transports benefit is just TOO good imho.

Just wish that the other chapter specific detachment benefits could be at least useful in a competitive environment. Free transports needs to go.

Ever since I won a game popping invisible Tiggy & battle company contents by hitting their free drop pod with a hellhammer, i've had a somewhat contemptuous view of the thing. As a combined SM/Guard player, I can't actually recall an instance where the whole situation didn't work out in my favor with either objectives or explosions. To be fair we only have 2 Battle company users in my area so it's probably skewed things.

As a Soul Drinker, the AOD IF formation and expanded traits are bang on the fluff for me. Army-wide stubborn and twin linked sternguard is simply a beautiful extra; maximisng the value of what you have instead of tacking on liabilities. Useful liabilities it must be said, but liabilities non-the less.

tag8833 wrote:
Gladius is really good in game with tons of free stuff and extra bonus rules, but the biggest problem with it isn't that it wins too many games. The biggest problem is that it turns Space marines into the most effective hoard army in 40K. That isn't right. I play Orks and Tyranids. When I play space marines at tournaments I am always out numbered on a model count basis. That isn't right. Space Marines should be elite. Gladius makes a mockery of that.

Exactly my issue with it. Other Super-Detatchments tend to at least build on how an Army is suppose to be fluffwise. Necron Decurion makes them super-durable. Tau Hunter Cadres build on their fire discipline and teamwork. Etc, etc.

By contrast the Gladius encourages Marine players to take hordes of cheap expendable units in order to get free transports. Basically the Gladius encourages them to play like the Imperial Guard's attrition tactics instead of the lightning strike that Marines are supposed to be fluffwise. It's probably my biggest peeve with the Marine Decurion.

It would help a lot if marines had units that were good at lightning strikes to begin with. Lightning strike turns into suicude mission real fast.

Gree wrote:
Basically the Gladius encourages them to play like the Imperial Guard's attrition tactics

Well said.

It would probably be more game breaking, but I would much prefer a Gladius that gave all Space Marines 2 wounds rather than free stuff. That way they would be at least Elite instead of so much cannon fodder.

tag8833 wrote:

Gree wrote:
Basically the Gladius encourages them to play like the Imperial Guard's attrition tactics

Well said.

It would probably be more game breaking, but I would much prefer a Gladius that gave all Space Marines 2 wounds rather than free stuff. That way they would be at least Elite instead of so much cannon fodder.

So free wounds... ie free stuff is better than other free stuff? I mean I get what you're saying, but people act like free stats isn't free stuff just because you can't buy it normally.
Obviously doubling wounds doesn't sell twice as many models, so that's not gonna be the most powerful tactic.

 Purifier wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Gree wrote:
Basically the Gladius encourages them to play like the Imperial Guard's attrition tactics

Well said.

It would probably be more game breaking, but I would much prefer a Gladius that gave all Space Marines 2 wounds rather than free stuff. That way they would be at least Elite instead of so much cannon fodder.

So free wounds... ie free stuff is better than other free stuff? I mean I get what you're saying, but people act like free stats isn't free stuff just because you can't buy it normally.
Obviously doubling wounds doesn't sell twice as many models, so that's not gonna be the most powerful tactic.

In fairness when its Eldar people seem quick to harp on about how broken stat boosts are.