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 Purifier wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Gree wrote:
Basically the Gladius encourages them to play like the Imperial Guard's attrition tactics

Well said.

It would probably be more game breaking, but I would much prefer a Gladius that gave all Space Marines 2 wounds rather than free stuff. That way they would be at least Elite instead of so much cannon fodder.

So free wounds... ie free stuff is better than other free stuff? I mean I get what you're saying, but people act like free stats isn't free stuff just because you can't buy it normally.
Obviously doubling wounds doesn't sell twice as many models, so that's not gonna be the most powerful tactic.

As I said it would be even more game breaking, and yes I feel like formations as they exist now are an incredibly flawed concept that should be dumped, but at least a stat buffing formation wouldn't be nearly as massive a violation of fluff as Gladius is.

The big Ravenguard Detachment is really good too.

tag8833 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Gree wrote:
Basically the Gladius encourages them to play like the Imperial Guard's attrition tactics

Well said.

It would probably be more game breaking, but I would much prefer a Gladius that gave all Space Marines 2 wounds rather than free stuff. That way they would be at least Elite instead of so much cannon fodder.

So free wounds... ie free stuff is better than other free stuff? I mean I get what you're saying, but people act like free stats isn't free stuff just because you can't buy it normally.
Obviously doubling wounds doesn't sell twice as many models, so that's not gonna be the most powerful tactic.

As I said it would be even more game breaking, and yes I feel like formations as they exist now are an incredibly flawed concept that should be dumped, but at least a stat buffing formation wouldn't be nearly as massive a violation of fluff as Gladius is.

except the Gladius ISN'T fluff breaking. this is an army that builds around a core of tatical marines suppported by assault and heavy troops. with a number of back up auxilaries. that's... kinda how space marines have been depicted as deploying. the additional bonuses for two demi companies was likely to enchourage the use of battle companies over heavy on the auxilery,
whatever the issues are with the gladius, it's not unfluffy. remember the only thing people complain about seems to be the free transports, which requires a BATTLE COMPANY. and after the pre-requsites of 6 tac squads (my guess BTW is the designers where assuming everyone took squads of 10, and IMHO anyone who shows up with 30 tac marines, 10 assault marines and 10 devestators and insists he's a BATTLE COMPANY, is proably being "That guy")

the gladius itself is perfectly fluffy. it's also pretty restricting, as I can't just take 1 of something as an auxillery

Gree wrote:
By contrast the Gladius encourages Marine players to take hordes of cheap expendable units in order to get free transports. Basically the Gladius encourages them to play like the Imperial Guard's attrition tactics instead of the lightning strike that Marines are supposed to be fluffwise. It's probably my biggest peeve with the Marine Decurion.

Gladius encourages Space Marine players to buy more Space Marines. And that is what 99.999% of The Hobby is all about.

BrianDavion wrote:

except the Gladius ISN'T fluff breaking. this is an army that builds around a core of tatical marines suppported by assault and heavy troops. with a number of back up auxilaries. that's... kinda how space marines have been depicted as deploying. the additional bonuses for two demi companies was likely to enchourage the use of battle companies over heavy on the auxilery,
whatever the issues are with the gladius, it's not unfluffy. remember the only thing people complain about seems to be the free transports, which requires a BATTLE COMPANY. and after the pre-requsites of 6 tac squads (my guess BTW is the designers where assuming everyone took squads of 10, and IMHO anyone who shows up with 30 tac marines, 10 assault marines and 10 devestators and insists he's a BATTLE COMPANY, is proably being "That guy")

If it was a massive Apocalypse game then the Gladius isn't really that unfluffy. I don't think anyone here has issue with a Battle Company showing up at a massive 5000-6000pts Apoc game. However with common games being played in the 1850 range, it is rather unfluffy, with the benefits encouraging players to take a bunch of bare-bones squads in order to get free transports. In those lower points games players are showing up with 30 Tac Marines, 10 Assault Marines and 10 Devastators in order to grab the free transport bonuses. Typically they then overwhelm with target saturation and Objective Secured Spam. Just like how one would expect the Imperial Guard to play. It's attrition gameplay rather than the lightning strike.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Gladius encourages Space Marine players to buy more Space Marines. And that is what 99.999% of The Hobby is all about.

Well of course Games Workshop wants people to buy more Space Marines. Nobody is contesting that. It's just unfluffy though, which is why I am criticizing it.

Gree wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

except the Gladius ISN'T fluff breaking. this is an army that builds around a core of tatical marines suppported by assault and heavy troops. with a number of back up auxilaries. that's... kinda how space marines have been depicted as deploying. the additional bonuses for two demi companies was likely to enchourage the use of battle companies over heavy on the auxilery,
whatever the issues are with the gladius, it's not unfluffy. remember the only thing people complain about seems to be the free transports, which requires a BATTLE COMPANY. and after the pre-requsites of 6 tac squads (my guess BTW is the designers where assuming everyone took squads of 10, and IMHO anyone who shows up with 30 tac marines, 10 assault marines and 10 devestators and insists he's a BATTLE COMPANY, is proably being "That guy")

If it was a massive Apocalypse game then the Gladius isn't really that unfluffy. I don't think anyone here has issue with a Battle Company showing up at a massive 5000-6000pts Apoc game. However with common games being played in the 1850 range, it is rather unfluffy, with the benefits encouraging players to take a bunch of bare-bones squads in order to get free transports. In those lower points games players are showing up with 30 Tac Marines, 10 Assault Marines and 10 Devastators in order to grab the free transport bonuses. Typically they then overwhelm with target saturation and Objective Secured Spam. Just like how one would expect the Imperial Guard to play. It's attrition gameplay rather than the lightning strike.

I field a basic battle demi-co as a 1k list. 3 full tac squads (with transports) 5 man assault and dev squads. It is a solid, fluffy list. Adding an aux or two to bring it up to a 1,500 or 1,850 is again, totally fluffy and appropriate to how marines take the field.

Full company MSU builds are the issue. Not the gladius itself.

(It’s been a while since I put my full company on the table, but to put 107 marines plus some dreads on the table, you are looking to around 3k to do it justice.)

 Nevelon wrote:

Gree wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

except the Gladius ISN'T fluff breaking. this is an army that builds around a core of tatical marines suppported by assault and heavy troops. with a number of back up auxilaries. that's... kinda how space marines have been depicted as deploying. the additional bonuses for two demi companies was likely to enchourage the use of battle companies over heavy on the auxilery,
whatever the issues are with the gladius, it's not unfluffy. remember the only thing people complain about seems to be the free transports, which requires a BATTLE COMPANY. and after the pre-requsites of 6 tac squads (my guess BTW is the designers where assuming everyone took squads of 10, and IMHO anyone who shows up with 30 tac marines, 10 assault marines and 10 devestators and insists he's a BATTLE COMPANY, is proably being "That guy")

If it was a massive Apocalypse game then the Gladius isn't really that unfluffy. I don't think anyone here has issue with a Battle Company showing up at a massive 5000-6000pts Apoc game. However with common games being played in the 1850 range, it is rather unfluffy, with the benefits encouraging players to take a bunch of bare-bones squads in order to get free transports. In those lower points games players are showing up with 30 Tac Marines, 10 Assault Marines and 10 Devastators in order to grab the free transport bonuses. Typically they then overwhelm with target saturation and Objective Secured Spam. Just like how one would expect the Imperial Guard to play. It's attrition gameplay rather than the lightning strike.

I field a basic battle demi-co as a 1k list. 3 full tac squads (with transports) 5 man assault and dev squads. It is a solid, fluffy list. Adding an aux or two to bring it up to a 1,500 or 1,850 is again, totally fluffy and appropriate to how marines take the field.

Full company MSU builds are the issue. Not the gladius itself.

(It’s been a while since I put my full company on the table, but to put 107 marines plus some dreads on the table, you are looking to around 3k to do it justice.)

Yes, I certainly have no issue with the Battle Demi-Company plus some auxiliaries. It's appropriate for a skirmish-level match. The Doctrines are a decent way to represent the Space Marine style of warfare. I do dislike the full ''Marine Parking Lot'' builds that are often done.

 Nevelon wrote:

Gree wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

except the Gladius ISN'T fluff breaking. this is an army that builds around a core of tatical marines suppported by assault and heavy troops. with a number of back up auxilaries. that's... kinda how space marines have been depicted as deploying. the additional bonuses for two demi companies was likely to enchourage the use of battle companies over heavy on the auxilery,
whatever the issues are with the gladius, it's not unfluffy. remember the only thing people complain about seems to be the free transports, which requires a BATTLE COMPANY. and after the pre-requsites of 6 tac squads (my guess BTW is the designers where assuming everyone took squads of 10, and IMHO anyone who shows up with 30 tac marines, 10 assault marines and 10 devestators and insists he's a BATTLE COMPANY, is proably being "That guy")

If it was a massive Apocalypse game then the Gladius isn't really that unfluffy. I don't think anyone here has issue with a Battle Company showing up at a massive 5000-6000pts Apoc game. However with common games being played in the 1850 range, it is rather unfluffy, with the benefits encouraging players to take a bunch of bare-bones squads in order to get free transports. In those lower points games players are showing up with 30 Tac Marines, 10 Assault Marines and 10 Devastators in order to grab the free transport bonuses. Typically they then overwhelm with target saturation and Objective Secured Spam. Just like how one would expect the Imperial Guard to play. It's attrition gameplay rather than the lightning strike.

I field a basic battle demi-co as a 1k list. 3 full tac squads (with transports) 5 man assault and dev squads. It is a solid, fluffy list. Adding an aux or two to bring it up to a 1,500 or 1,850 is again, totally fluffy and appropriate to how marines take the field.

Full company MSU builds are the issue. Not the gladius itself.

(It’s been a while since I put my full company on the table, but to put 107 marines plus some dreads on the table, you are looking to around 3k to do it justice.)

this. I think it's a safe bet that the VAST majority of people who run the Gladius are fluff n uts who are quite happy to deploy a reasonably fluffy force, and would proably shrug and say "ok thats fine" if GW errata'd the Battle company rule out of existance (as someone who runs a gladius myself I'd be happy with it) you just don't hear about those people as they're playing in their garage oblivious to the tourny scene etc.

I think it'd be benifical to stop talking about the "Gladius" and instead talk about the "Gladius Battle company" as not everyone builds to the battle company. and when one ignores that aspect of it, I think most people would be willing to accept the Gladius strike force is a reasonably balanced one.

now in a tounry context. just require a gladius to have full ten man tac squads before it's allowed to take another demi-company core.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gree wrote:


Yes, I certainly have no issue with the Battle Demi-Company plus some auxiliaries. It's appropriate for a skirmish-level match. The Doctrines are a decent way to represent the Space Marine style of warfare. I do dislike the full ''Marine Parking Lot'' builds that are often done.

right no one does. the problem stems from the battle company. honestly I think even GW aknowledges that was a stupid rule, hence why none of the other SM strike forces have any comparable rule.

Gree wrote:
By contrast the Gladius encourages Marine players to take hordes of cheap expendable units in order to get free transports. Basically the Gladius encourages them to play like the Imperial Guard's attrition tactics instead of the lightning strike that Marines are supposed to be fluffwise. It's probably my biggest peeve with the Marine Decurion.

Well...Double Gladius encourages Marine players to grab objectives rather than massacring each and every member of the opposing army. That actually is kind of how the Space Marines' combat doctrine is portrayed - going for decisive objectives rather than getting tied up in attrition battles.

Martel732 wrote:It would help a lot if marines had units that were good at lightning strikes to begin with. Lightning strike turns into suicude mission real fast.

This. Prior to the Gladius detachment, we weren't seeing too many competitive Space Marine armies that comprised of 30 Tac Marines, 10 Assault Marines, and 10 Devastator Marines.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Well...Double Gladius encourages Marine players to grab objectives rather than massacring each and every member of the opposing army. That actually is kind of how the Space Marines' combat doctrine is portrayed - going for decisive objectives rather than getting tied up in attrition battles.

No, that would be more in line with the ''lightning strike'' as described in Space Marine warfare. Launching surgical strikes to decapitate the enemy and making use of their superior mobility. Space Marine fluff general revolves around elite strike forces and surgical strikes. Space Marines generally aren't described as dumping multiple expendable units on enemy objectives in the lore. That's more the Imperial Guard.

It's actually the Battle Company that lends it more to attrition both among their own units and the opposing units. That's part of why the ''Parking Lot'' is so effective, of drowning opponents in multiple units each with Objective Secured. The loss of a squad or two is not much of a setback for the parking lot. Quantity of units rather than quality. They play like a MSU horde army on the tabletop, often outnumbering the actual horde armies.

Marines don't have superior mobility. You can't decapitate anything if there is a wraithknight between you and your target. Marines don't play anything like the fluff to the point where the fluff might as well not exist.

Marines are total cannon fodder on the tabletop. You might as well play them as such.

Gree wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Well...Double Gladius encourages Marine players to grab objectives rather than massacring each and every member of the opposing army. That actually is kind of how the Space Marines' combat doctrine is portrayed - going for decisive objectives rather than getting tied up in attrition battles.

No, that would be more in line with the ''lightning strike'' as described in Space Marine warfare. Launching surgical strikes to decapitate the enemy and making use of their superior mobility. Space Marine fluff general revolves around elite strike forces and surgical strikes. Space Marines generally aren't described as dumping multiple expendable units on enemy objectives in the lore. That's more the Imperial Guard.

It's actually the Battle Company that lends it more to attrition both among their own units and the opposing units. That's part of why the ''Parking Lot'' is so effective, of drowning opponents in multiple units each with Objective Secured. The loss of a squad or two is not much of a setback for the parking lot. Quantity of units rather than quality. They play like a MSU horde army on the tabletop, often outnumbering the actual horde armies.

You're not going to get much superior mobility out of a Tac/Assault/Dev squad list, with their normal speeds for units of their type. You can maybe get superior mobility out of a Marine bike squad based army, but Marine players usually get shade thrown at them for that kind of thing.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Well...Double Gladius encourages Marine players to grab objectives rather than massacring each and every member of the opposing army. That actually is kind of how the Space Marines' combat doctrine is portrayed - going for decisive objectives rather than getting tied up in attrition battles.

No, that would be more in line with the ''lightning strike'' as described in Space Marine warfare. Launching surgical strikes to decapitate the enemy and making use of their superior mobility. Space Marine fluff general revolves around elite strike forces and surgical strikes. Space Marines generally aren't described as dumping multiple expendable units on enemy objectives in the lore. That's more the Imperial Guard.

It's actually the Battle Company that lends it more to attrition both among their own units and the opposing units. That's part of why the ''Parking Lot'' is so effective, of drowning opponents in multiple units each with Objective Secured. The loss of a squad or two is not much of a setback for the parking lot. Quantity of units rather than quality. They play like a MSU horde army on the tabletop, often outnumbering the actual horde armies.

You're not going to get much superior mobility out of a Tac/Assault/Dev squad list, with their normal speeds for units of their type. You can maybe get superior mobility out of a Marine bike squad based army, but Marine players usually get shade thrown at them for that kind of thing.

If Marines are unfluffy or lack mobility now, than that just means GW has failed to create a fluffy detachment for them now, or have have failed in game balance between factions. It doesn't contradict my point that the Double Gladius Battle Company is still unfluffy and inappropriate for Space Marines. Of course when I say mobility, I speak of strategic mobility. A Rhino is not faster than a Chimera or Wave Serpent, (Barring exceptions like the Blood Angels) but the Space Marines are as a fighting force able to reply and deploy in a faster manner than the sledgehammer of the Imperial Guard and can commit a concentrated amount of force on a man-by man basis.

Perhaps rather than creating a Formation that is more suited to the Imperial Guard, the Designers could have created a Detachment that would reward you by getting special bonuses to Reserves or Outflank, or perhaps give additional victory points for slaying HQ units on top of the normal condition. After all in the fluff the Space Marines strategic mobility is well documented. To an extent it's also on the tabletop, with things like Drop Pods and such, just not as empathized in the way that might have been better for them in the current power levels. If the Necron Decurion emphasizes durability, and the Eldar one emphasizes speed, then the Space Marine one should emphasize their mobility and elite nature. To en extent it does that, just not enough.

except the Gladius DOESN'T FORCE a MSU approuch. that's just people cheesing the list. it no more forces MUS then the Levithan detachment for 'nids FORCES 'nid players to run pure flyrant lists

BrianDavion wrote:
except the Gladius DOESN'T FORCE a MSU approuch. that's just people cheesing the list. it no more forces MUS then the Levithan detachment for 'nids FORCES 'nid players to run pure flyrant lists

No, it doesn't literally hold a gun to your head and force you to play MSU. But when you assume that the goal of the game is to win (otherwise, if you don't care about winning, why keep track of objectives/army lists/etc at all? Why even play with rules?) list building is going to involve taking the options that make a good strategy. And the Gladius detachment is overwhelmingly more powerful when you take it as MSU transport spam compared to any other possible use of the detachment. This isn't some super-cheese tactic involving combining a dozen different codices worth of rules and a bunch of obscure rules interactions that GW never anticipated, it's taking the most straightforward and obvious way to use the detachment. The only reason you'd ever consider anything but MSU is if you deliberately want to make your list weaker so you don't crush a weaker opponent.

BrianDavion wrote:
except the Gladius DOESN'T FORCE a MSU approuch. that's just people cheesing the list. it no more forces MUS then the Levithan detachment for 'nids FORCES 'nid players to run pure flyrant lists

Is that true? Let's see. The minimum points of a White Scars double battle company gladius is 985. For those 985 points you have 23 units (assuming you take the free transports). 23!!!!!. How many non MSU armies have 23 units? How many of them have 23 units at 1,000 points?

With a Leviathan I can run a Deathleaper, and 3 units of Gants with no flyrants at all and that is a legal list. It doesn't force me to spam flyrants. But Double Battle Company Gladius which is the only thing we are talking about here is 23 units minimum. It forces you to run hoard MSU. There is no other option. That is a violation of fluff.

As stated above if you want to bring a double Battle Company to a 5K Apoc game it would make sense. Because the marines aren't just more meat for the grinder that hope their bodies (and transports) outnumber their opponent's bullets. Marine's should be elite and valuable. Not cannon fodder. An appropriate number of units for a space marine army playing at 1,000 points is probably 6-10 not 23. Show me a hoard army that can run better hoard msu. Even when I run an Orkurion, I am usually only running 18-20 units in an 1850 point list.

All other space marine super formations require the use of tactical marines. Because of this all other formations are super gimped. The core tax of the super detachments just isn't worth it (as in not even slightly competitive) unless you are getting 500 + points of free razorbacks.

Without gladius perks- Demi company is worse than CAD by a large margin. Why? Tactical marines are garbo beyond belief and captains and chaplains force you into a type of play.

When it comes to AOD - talon strike force has potential. It lets you reroll seize and mission type by default and you can roll for reserves on turn 1. This is a huge synergy with Shadow-strike kill team. However - with a pinion or demi-company required to field the detachment. You barely break even over a CAD.

 Xenomancers wrote:
All other space marine super formations require the use of tactical marines. Because of this all other formations are super gimped. The core tax of the super detachments just isn't worth it (as in not even slightly competitive) unless you are getting 500 + points of free razorbacks.

Without gladius perks- Demi company is worse than CAD by a large margin. Why? Tactical marines are garbo beyond belief and captains and chaplains force you into a type of play.

Queue Xenos sniveling about how bad their troops have it.

 bomtek80 wrote:
I play my Salamanders force because I love their fluff and ya know, the whole "kill it with fire!" thing. I've played casual games and a couple of local tourney games. I agree that in small casual games that our Flameblade Strike Force is interesting and fun to play.

However, in the tournament environment where there is at least some competition, the Gladius beats every other chapter's special detachment hands down. The Gladius is just so much better that taking any other formation feels pointless. The free transports benefit is just TOO good imho.

Just wish that the other chapter specific detachment benefits could be at least useful in a competitive environment. Free transports needs to go.

The other chapter specific formations you admitted (aren't useful) then in the next sentence state the free transports need to go? It doesn't make sense.

Heres what really needs to happen. Tactical marines need to be made useful (then maybe free transports can go) and maybe all the other formations wont suck at the same time.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:
I play my Salamanders force because I love their fluff and ya know, the whole "kill it with fire!" thing. I've played casual games and a couple of local tourney games. I agree that in small casual games that our Flameblade Strike Force is interesting and fun to play.

However, in the tournament environment where there is at least some competition, the Gladius beats every other chapter's special detachment hands down. The Gladius is just so much better that taking any other formation feels pointless. The free transports benefit is just TOO good imho.

Just wish that the other chapter specific detachment benefits could be at least useful in a competitive environment. Free transports needs to go.

The other chapter specific formations you admitted (aren't useful) then in the next sentence state the free transports need to go? It doesn't make sense.

Heres what really needs to happen. Tactical marines need to be made useful (then maybe free transports can go) and maybe all the other formations wont suck at the same time.

What I was trying to say is that since Battle company benefits totally overshadow all the other Strikeforce benefits then perhaps the free transports are simply too powerful an advantage.

I can actually see some decent use coming from the IH and IF strike forces, even the RG like the other guy pointed out. Although I still think the Salamanders got the shaft on their mega formation (weak benefit and force composition that makes no fething sense according to their fluff).

I also do agree that the average Tac squad marine needs to be a bit beefier to be considered "elite."