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My local group has started to adopt the First Draft FAQ to try it out.

Although the FAQ states 1 grenade can be thrown per phase, our Eldar player is trying to argue that melta bombs are not thrown in close combat, but stuck to the armor of the vehicle. He insists the use of the word "thrown" in the main book exempts his fire dragons from the 1 grenade limit.

What does everybody think?

I play Orks mostly so I am also curious, but leaning more toward limit 1 by the way the first sentence in the FAQ answer was written.

Melta bombs don't have a rules difference from any other grenade

The draft FAQ simply states only one in the assault phase, giving the wrong reason of "thrown" from the shooting phase.

There is no way to reconcile the rules to the FAQ answer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The draft FAQ simply states only one in the assault phase, giving the wrong reason of "thrown" from the shooting phase.

There is no way to reconcile the rules to the FAQ answer.

"Thrown" was never defined as "used in the shooting phase". It is perfectly reasonable to assume that models in CC also "throw" their grenade to make it "stick" to the target.
And further going off this "assumption" it is reasonable to only allow 1 model to do this per unit to reduce the risk of hurting your own squad mates. If everyone "throws" their grenades at such a close range, one or 2 might bounce back onto the unit.
Alternatively, it is possible that only 1 member of a squad can do this as the rest of the unit have to "distract" the MC or Walker they want the grenade to be used on.

I am not saying it's a good ruling since it make Tankbustas and Swooping Hawks pretty bad now, but the reasoning for the ruling is there in the BRB. If GW had used the word "use" instead of "throw", no one would have ever thought that you could use all your grenades in CC. Everyone falsely assumed that "throw" meant "shoot", which was apparently never the case

to the OP, there is absolutely no grounds in the rules to allow Fire Dragons to use their melta bombs differently than anyone else. The Draft FAQ is very clear that grenades (including MBs) are only 1 per unit per phase.

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You only get 1 grenade or bomb per assault phase, that models looses its attack if it uses it.

Eldar are not exempt from this, tell your eldar friend to stop being a nob and that he is being that guy

 Galef wrote:

to the OP, there is absolutely no grounds in the rules to allow Fire Dragons to use their melta bombs differently than anyone else. The Draft FAQ is very clear that grenades 9including MBs) are only 1 per unit per phase.

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Exactly this. No multiple melta bombs from the same unit.

Thanks everyone! That's how I thought it worked.

The FAQ basically defines 'Throw' as 'using a grenade to attack.

Doesn't matter if you fling it at a group of guardsmen, tape it on to the side of a tank or use it as a suppository for a carnifex all these techniques are types of 'throw' by the way the rules see it.

I do sympathise with the Eldar player, in this rare instance though. I'd be tempted to house rule melta bombs as separate to the 1 grenade limit. Most armies would benefit from that, even if not evenly...

Galef wrote:Everyone falsely assumed that "throw" meant "shoot"

Except for me. I didn't assume that at all. I assumed quite the opposite. Mainly because the rulebook was so incredibly clear to me that I didn't even think that "throw" vs. "use" was even a thing.

It's actually somewhat surprising that an FAQ was even needed. Can't people read, for crying out loud?

At any rate:

OP, melta bombs are just yet another kind of grenade, ruleswise. Ruleswise, "throw" = "use." Just check the FAQs.

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Everyone falsely assumed that "throw" meant "shoot"

Except for me. I didn't assume that at all. I assumed quite the opposite. Mainly because the rulebook was so incredibly clear to me that I didn't even think that "throw" vs. "use" was even a thing.

It's actually somewhat surprising that an FAQ was even needed. Can't people read, for crying out loud?

At any rate:

OP, melta bombs are just yet another kind of grenade, ruleswise. Ruleswise, "throw" = "use." Just check the FAQs.

In the BRB when talking about shooting they state that you can throw the grenade but in close combat it never mentions throwing and refers to the action as "making an attack". The lack of throw verbiage for close combat, that throw is used for describing making a shooting attack with grenades, and the fact that you don't shoot in melee combat so it would seem that you wouldn't throw in melee (considering the BRB uses throw to describe the shooting attack grenades make). It also describes that certain grenades used against vehicles and MCs need to be clamped onto the target in melee combat (again its not described as throwing but clamping). The restriction for the number of grenades used is stated as thrown and thrown is only used to describe a shooting attack. This gives a lot of reason as to why it would seem that you do not throw in melee combat but instead make melee attacks (clamp on) with the device.

It also is a head scratcher why you pay per model to have melee grenades if you could only use 1 in melee combat. It would be like having a squad of terminators with power fists but only being allowed to have 1 terminator being able to attack with a power fist and all the other guys with such weapons have to stand around.

nareik wrote:
I'd be tempted to house rule melta bombs as separate to the 1 grenade limit. Most armies would benefit from that, even if not evenly...

I honestly cannot think of any other units besides Fire Dragons and Ork Tankbustas that have all meltabombs. AFAIK, every other unit that can have melta bombs can only have 1 model (the Sergeant) have them. Outside of adding IC's anyway. So while this houserule would surely benefit Orks, the only other army it would help would be Eldar, who don't need house rules to help them. If Fire Dragons can't kill the tank they shoot at, charging it is an act of desperation even with every model using MBs

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 Galef wrote:

nareik wrote:
I'd be tempted to house rule melta bombs as separate to the 1 grenade limit. Most armies would benefit from that, even if not evenly...

I honestly cannot think of any other units besides Fire Dragons and Ork Tankbustas that have all meltabombs. AFAIK, every other unit that can have melta bombs can only have 1 model (the Sergeant) have them. Outside of adding IC's anyway. So while this houserule would surely benefit Orks, the only other army it would help would be Eldar, who don't need house rules to help them. If Fire Dragons can't kill the tank they shoot at, charging it is an act of desperation even with every model using MBs

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SM units like Command Squads and Vanguard Vets could all take melta bombs. But they don’t all come equipped with them stock.

I think there are some 30k units that take things like MBs on a unit basis, but am a lot less knowledgeable about the guys there.

 Galef wrote:

nareik wrote:
I'd be tempted to house rule melta bombs as separate to the 1 grenade limit. Most armies would benefit from that, even if not evenly...

I honestly cannot think of any other units besides Fire Dragons and Ork Tankbustas that have all meltabombs. AFAIK, every other unit that can have melta bombs can only have 1 model (the Sergeant) have them. Outside of adding IC's anyway. So while this houserule would surely benefit Orks, the only other army it would help would be Eldar, who don't need house rules to help them. If Fire Dragons can't kill the tank they shoot at, charging it is an act of desperation even with every model using MBs

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I think a better houserule would be allowing Orks, Fire Dragons, and any other unit which must purchase meltas for all units to purchase them per-model the way certain SM veterans can. That way, they have to option of adding redundancy without being forced to waste points.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Galef wrote:

nareik wrote:
I'd be tempted to house rule melta bombs as separate to the 1 grenade limit. Most armies would benefit from that, even if not evenly...

I honestly cannot think of any other units besides Fire Dragons and Ork Tankbustas that have all meltabombs. AFAIK, every other unit that can have melta bombs can only have 1 model (the Sergeant) have them. Outside of adding IC's anyway. So while this houserule would surely benefit Orks, the only other army it would help would be Eldar, who don't need house rules to help them. If Fire Dragons can't kill the tank they shoot at, charging it is an act of desperation even with every model using MBs

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I think a better houserule would be allowing Orks, Fire Dragons, and any other unit which must purchase meltas for all units to purchase them per-model the way certain SM veterans can. That way, they have to option of adding redundancy without being forced to waste points.

Tankbustas and I believe Fire Dragons have meltabombs in their stock loadout. It would be beneficial for things like Tau Fire Warriors who have to buy EMP grenades per model for the entire squad.

 Traditio wrote:

Galef wrote:Everyone falsely assumed that "throw" meant "shoot"

Except for me. I didn't assume that at all. I assumed quite the opposite. Mainly because the rulebook was so incredibly clear to me that I didn't even think that "throw" vs. "use" was even a thing.

It's actually somewhat surprising that an FAQ was even needed. Can't people read, for crying out loud?

Yeah we can read, we can even read past the first paragraph. Pg. 180 of the rulebook, 2nd paragraph: "Some grenades can be used against vehicles, gun emplacements and/or Monstrous Cratures . . . but have to be clamped in place [i]. . . "

ie. Grenades used in CC in place of attacks are not "thrown", they are explicitly "clamped in place".

FAQ decided to disregard the 2nd paragraph. New rule is new rule, but Krak and Melta weren't/aren't thrown in CC.

Ig vets with the demolitions doctrine all get melta bombs for a single price.

As far as "thrown" goes: gw does not write rules to a legal standard; terms even when bolded and specifically defined are often used in other context in later parts of the rules, or used as a different definition within the same rule(gets hot).

The context of the paragraph where it tells you only 1 grenade may be thrown per unit per phase includes usage in the fight sub-phase. The bit in the next section of rules stating that they are clamped in place is only explaining what happens to the other attacks a model using a grenade in the fight sub-phase(they do not exist).

Nothing in the grenade rules even suggest that a unit can use multiple grenades in assault; but that was how it had worked in previous editions so no one really paid attention to the change(which I think actually happened in 6th)

 Vankraken wrote:

In the BRB when talking about shooting they state that you can throw the grenade but in close combat it never mentions throwing and refers to the action as "making an attack".

True as it goes. It glosses over being able to throw a grenade when performing overwatch, though with the way most people read it, that would have just limited how many you could throw in overwatch, but still clamp grenades in place during the fight sub-phase, at least until the FAQ.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

nareik wrote:
I'd be tempted to house rule melta bombs as separate to the 1 grenade limit. Most armies would benefit from that, even if not evenly...

I honestly cannot think of any other units besides Fire Dragons and Ork Tankbustas that have all meltabombs. AFAIK, every other unit that can have melta bombs can only have 1 model (the Sergeant) have them. Outside of adding IC's anyway. So while this houserule would surely benefit Orks, the only other army it would help would be Eldar, who don't need house rules to help them. If Fire Dragons can't kill the tank they shoot at, charging it is an act of desperation even with every model using MBs

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You shouldn't focus just on Melta bombs, though. Haywire grenades are affected just as much. DE had units with them as well as Eldar, units that have been made a lot worse now because of the ruling. I suspect they made the ruling more because of wanting to limit haywire damage to vehicles than to limit melta damage.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Nothing in the grenade rules even suggest that a unit can use multiple grenades in assault; but that was how it had worked in previous editions so no one really paid attention to the change(which I think actually happened in 6th)

No, it didn't.

But the root of why this is probably a bad read on the part of the FAQ team (or an intentional change rather than a clarification) can be found in 6th. The same rule under 6th:

Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase.

So the only thing that changed was the word "Shooting," which suggests that change in 7th was about opening up the possibility of thrown grenades in other phases (such as with overwatch).

The language in the 7th ed rulebook under each grenade type is also very consistent about the use of the word "throw" only under SHOOTING headings. However, that's only circumstantial evidence, since it's primarily fluffy text and not proper rules copy.

Yes, you are correct it didn't change in 6th; it changed now, in 7th.

It was always in the shooting phase, and now it is per phase.

That is a deliberate change that went unnoticed until the FAQ called attention to it, which has hence caused an uproar and many claims of "but you don't throw grenades in the assault phase".

Guess what: you clearly do. Sorry that this nerfs so many units' assault capabilities against vehicles; but the FAQ isn't making a mistake here. The rules were changed from the last 4 editions.

The coolest, funnest way to implement grenades in close combat would be any model that is in base contact with an appropriate enemy can use one.

If you get a good charge and surround the tank you'll get a lot of hits. If not, just a few.

This prevents the ridiculous 15-meltabomb attack by tankbustas, but it still allows them to wipe out any normal tank if they get near it.

Said rule would be cool and fun, so GW probably won't do it.

That would be an effective and "narrative forging" houserule that I just might steal.

It definitely keeps with the "have to clamp on" as a base_contact models only, and as most units are all or nothing for krak grenades and haywire prevents some of the "why the heck did I pay for all my models to have this" feelings(especially when they a 2+ ppm)

I understood the throw one per phase thing was to make it clear that a grenade could be thrown as part of an overwatch.

The various grenade special rules talk about units equipped with, or units with a model equipped with implied to me more than one model would sometimes be using grenades when the special effects were used.

Clearly I was wrong on this one.

 Galef wrote:

nareik wrote:
I'd be tempted to house rule melta bombs as separate to the 1 grenade limit. Most armies would benefit from that, even if not evenly...

I honestly cannot think of any other units besides Fire Dragons and Ork Tankbustas that have all meltabombs. AFAIK, every other unit that can have melta bombs can only have 1 model (the Sergeant) have them. Outside of adding IC's anyway. So while this houserule would surely benefit Orks, the only other army it would help would be Eldar, who don't need house rules to help them. If Fire Dragons can't kill the tank they shoot at, charging it is an act of desperation even with every model using MBs

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Clearly I have a career at GW with my ruleswriting as I have been unclear .

I meant as well as a melta bomb being allowed to be used, a single grenade could also be 'thrown' in combat. So typically a melta bomb and a krak grenade.

Unusual grenades covers when a grenade just has special rules(they are always in effect), this also includes things like defensive and assault grenades not using the weapon profile.

 Galef wrote:

nareik wrote:
I'd be tempted to house rule melta bombs as separate to the 1 grenade limit. Most armies would benefit from that, even if not evenly...

I honestly cannot think of any other units besides Fire Dragons and Ork Tankbustas that have all meltabombs. AFAIK, every other unit that can have melta bombs can only have 1 model (the Sergeant) have them. Outside of adding IC's anyway. So while this houserule would surely benefit Orks, the only other army it would help would be Eldar, who don't need house rules to help them. If Fire Dragons can't kill the tank they shoot at, charging it is an act of desperation even with every model using MBs

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Just an aside Dark Angels Vets can each take a melta bomb