Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 redleger wrote:
So Sunday I am playing at local FLGS 1500 pt tourny. I bring my hunter contingent with a stormsurge, but no riptide wing.I didn't want to cheese it up too hard, but still have something to deal with what I see in my local meta.

First game is against 3 knights, and it was a hard fought game, but I pull off the win. The opponent on the table next to me is playing his game, while still complaining about Tau cheese the whole time. He won his game, so we end up having to play each other based on points.

Turn 1 he moves his 2 land raiders and rhino up, pops smoke and says go. I then proceed to move up and start blasting. I do some points to one land raider, I drop anchors on my storm surge, but nothing died. Turn 2 he moves up, disembarks, and then announces tank shock on my anchored stormsurge. I then Death or Glory it, with the D weapon, roll a 6 and the LR explodes violently and he then rage quits.

I mean he packed up, while in charging distance to my stormsurge with all his AP2 weilding termies, and was actually in a position to hurt me. He not only denied me points in the tournament, but denied the third game to his would be opponent as well. His opponent had to sit out the game, and was so bored that he fell asleep on the table watching our game. (the third game was actually quite exciting, I think he was just tired).

So is this normal behavior? I mean is seemed pretty poor form to me. He berated me, my army, and denied games to other players who came to play. This person actually has money and access to way more models than I do, so I am not sure why he would bring a force that can't compete(although in reality I was scared of his assaults). Why blame me because I just happened to pick an army, and practice with it enough to be good. I have seen tau get smacked by good players, so I don't think I can say that anyone who plays Tau should be rage quitted on.

IDK, I was just kind of taken back, and it ruined the tourny for me. Has this happened before to any of you?

Im confused... how did he cost you points by quitting. Since he quit isnt that an automatic win for you? Forgive me I don't do tournaments.

Some tournaments do not award full points for a forfeit to prevent the meta game tactic of friends facing each other, and one forfeiting, to advance the other.

 adamsouza wrote:
Some tournaments do not award full points for a forfeit to prevent the meta game tactic of friends facing each other, and one forfeiting, to advance the other.

Paying a registration fee, travelling to the tourney, managing to draw a game vs a friend, and being willing take a dive to advance that friend is just another skill in a well rounded skillset.

No gak talking is a valid and important skill, It is used in real life quite often.

Think someone annoys you, you throw the first punsh your the agressor, a few well placed words and boom they become the agressor. All actions become self defense and admissable.

Being able to get an emotional reaction from someone with a few simple words is imprtant. It can male them follow your plan as if they where your own actions. Make them question their own actions or encourage them to follow through with something they may have questioned. All very valid and important things needed in any plan. Win the war of minds before a single punch is thrown and all that.

Plus only a kid or a simple-ton would get emptionaly invested with someone who they just met.

Insults can only be taken never given.

OgreChubbs wrote:
No gak talking is a valid and important skill, It is used in real life quite often.

Think someone annoys you, you throw the first punsh your the agressor, a few well placed words and boom they become the agressor. All actions become self defense and admissable.

Being able to get an emotional reaction from someone with a few simple words is imprtant. It can male them follow your plan as if they where your own actions. Make them question their own actions or encourage them to follow through with something they may have questioned. All very valid and important things needed in any plan. Win the war of minds before a single punch is thrown and all that.

Plus only a kid or a simple-ton would get emptionaly invested with someone who they just met.

Insults can only be taken never given.

Just so we're clear, we are talking a game that *most* of us play to have fun - and that even many of the GT high-placers have fun (read: being a decent person) while playing as well. So, call it a "skill" or "strategy" all you want, it is still a WAAC tactic that will end with most people not wanting to play against you and that will generally earn you notoriety as being TFG.

Also, emphasis added: nice argumentum ad hominem - way to attack pretty much the entire thread just to try to prove your own point.

 feeder wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Some tournaments do not award full points for a forfeit to prevent the meta game tactic of friends facing each other, and one forfeiting, to advance the other.

Paying a registration fee, travelling to the tourney, managing to draw a game vs a friend, and being willing take a dive to advance that friend is just another skill in a well rounded skillset.

I've seen it happen. In a swiss style tournament of 8 of so players, the guy with the list that's a bad matchup takes one for the team to let his travelling companion, compete for first or second if his list is a better matchup for the expected competition.

It does open the meta tactic of quitting out of spite, giving their opponent the win, but the forfit earning less points than a decisive victory, which hurts their record and therefore chance of advancement.

I've witnessed someone being severely trash talked quitting just to screw the score of the guy trash talking them.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 feeder wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 NInjatactiks wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here, I wonder why trash talking is so frowned upon in 40k tournaments. It's actually a valid tactic to use against your opponent to get under their skin and lose concentration in other sports and games. Even golf supposedly has its fair share despite being a gentlemen's sport.

To be honest, I feel 'trash talking' with the pure intent of getting your opponent frustrated shows a lack of confidence in your own abilities, so you're stooping as low as to sabotage instead of just lose (or win) gracefully. I mean, there's playful trash talk banter, but to go into a game with the intent to get your opponent legitimately upset/angry is incredibly poor sportsmanship.

Edit: This is for ANY game. Not just 40k. Like I said, playful banter is fine. But the if the intent is to affect your opponent's abilities in some degree, that's where it crosses the line, imo.

Trash talk is a skill in itself. Do it well, you get under your opponent's skin and get him off his game. Do it poorly, you can push him to greater feats.

Trash talk is just another skill in a well-rounded skillset.

Or its just acting like a rude person.

Agamemnon2 wrote:No, I don't *know* that for a fact, so why should I assume so?

Don't know you, but when someone says this PRIOR to the comments in question it's actually a pretty safe bet to assume so, dunno. Also, 2 comments ain't exactly dogged determination. Please pay attention this thread is 3 pages long, it doesn't have THAT many comments yet.

And what exactly does punishing the winner for having the loser forfeit accomplish? If two players are colluding then it's pretty trivially easy to ensure that the designated winner gets the maximum possible score. Stupid moves, "forgetting" to attack with units, etc. It just takes a little longer to arrange, but the end result is the same. So the only thing this rule does is punish people who tried to have a legitimate game and had their opponent concede.

OgreChubbs wrote:
No gak talking is a valid and important skill, It is used in real life quite often.

Think someone annoys you, you throw the first punsh your the agressor, a few well placed words and boom they become the agressor. All actions become self defense and admissable.

Being able to get an emotional reaction from someone with a few simple words is imprtant. It can male them follow your plan as if they where your own actions. Make them question their own actions or encourage them to follow through with something they may have questioned. All very valid and important things needed in any plan. Win the war of minds before a single punch is thrown and all that.

Plus only a kid or a simple-ton would get emptionaly invested with someone who they just met.

Insults can only be taken never given.

Rot and rubbish. It just comes across as rude, silly and absurd. This is a game of toy soldiers that people play as a pastime. Have a word with yourself.

Shall I now follow through with a list of insults against you, so that you become the aggressor? Self defence then.

OgreChubbs wrote:
No gak talking is a valid and important skill, It is used in real life quite often.

Think someone annoys you, you throw the first punsh your the agressor, a few well placed words and boom they become the agressor. All actions become self defense and admissable.

Being able to get an emotional reaction from someone with a few simple words is imprtant. It can male them follow your plan as if they where your own actions. Make them question their own actions or encourage them to follow through with something they may have questioned. All very valid and important things needed in any plan. Win the war of minds before a single punch is thrown and all that.

Plus only a kid or a simple-ton would get emptionaly invested with someone who they just met.

Insults can only be taken never given.

I have several issues with your argument here. First of all is this assumption that smack talking is some superb "Art of War" level stratagem to be used when there's money on the line. Which is clearly and, I feel, demonstrably untrue. Professional poker players don't do it, and there's way more money riding on that game than a 40k tournament. I'm not even convinced 40k players actually engage in it regularly, especially with strangers. As we are in the tournament forum, feel free to dip in your oar to dispute this, o ye onlookers.

Then, the whole "only a kid or simpleton" thing. I've found that there's this whole attitude going around these days that the only way to react to anything is a blasé sense of ironic detachment, that caring about anything is a sign of weakness and deserving only mockery. The whole "u be mad, bro?" thing. Well, I've never put much stock in that idea. We are not Vulcans, and half the fun of wargaming as a hobby is emotional engagement. That's why the game is played with lovingly detailed figures and not cardboard tokens and wooden cubes. The game is a social pastime, and expecting to be able to engage with other players in either a professional or a hobbyist level is hardly a novel thing to want to do. Especially since, if you take that away, what joy is there left in playing the game? Winning prizes, maybe, but there can be only one winner, and usually, even by averages, that's not going to be us, so if that's the only good thing we can expect out of an event, more often than not, we're going to be left disappointed and frustrated.

And really, "insults can only be taken" seems to be a rather sad attempt at avoiding responsibility. It's a philosophy that, again, expects people to laugh off disparaging comments, no matter how excessive and hurtful, because nothing really matters, y you mad bro? Yes, sometimes people take something unintended as an insult, but that doesn't mean there isn't such a thing as an intentional insult. Again, not to break the back of the argument running to the ground it thus, but if someone calls me a Jew because some of my models are secondhand, implies that I'm colorblind because of my paint scheme is odd, or deduces my supposed fondness for hot man-on-man action because my force contains Catachans (all real examples), they are the ones at fault in terms of manners and decency, not I.

Lord Kragan wrote:
Don't know you, but when someone says this PRIOR to the comments in question it's actually a pretty safe bet to assume so, dunno. Also, 2 comments ain't exactly dogged determination. Please pay attention this thread is 3 pages long, it doesn't have THAT many comments yet.

Look, I can only respond to arguments people are actually making, not ones I'd like for them to make or the ones they're possibly making behind a smokescreen of what they're actually saying. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of OgreChubbs there, for example, nothing he's saying is outlandish to me. I've met people like him out there in the wild. I don't see why you're so concerned with what I'm posting, friend. If I'm wasting my time talking to trolls, that's surely no business of yours, unless I'm to believe reading my possibly-in-error posts is taxing your eyes to an unreasonable degree, which I'm finding extremely dubious.

I dont know I never even said anything offensive and I promise you I was flagged and you several are already on the back foot to prove me wrong. Or am I just saying this to prove that I can make you get ready for a fight? Or maybe I am trying to defend myself who knows or maybe this is just a pointless jess to show the merit of mental foreplay?

Oh well guess we will never know shall we have a nice day and sorry for any doubt on trash talk maybe.

Also I would like to end it with I think the best thing to do is

OgreChubbs wrote:
I dont know I never even said anything offensive and I promise you I was flagged and you several are already on the back foot to prove me wrong. Or am I just saying this to prove that I can make you get ready for a fight? Or maybe I am trying to defend myself who knows or maybe this is just a pointless jess to show the merit of mental foreplay?

Oh well guess we will never know shall we have a nice day and sorry for any doubt on trash talk maybe.

Also I would like to end it with I think the best thing to do is

Oh please. My eyes roll any further and they'll drop out of my head.

OgreChubbs wrote:I dont know I never even said anything offensive and I promise you I was flagged and you several are already on the back foot to prove me wrong. Or am I just saying this to prove that I can make you get ready for a fight? Or maybe I am trying to defend myself who knows or maybe this is just a pointless jess to show the merit of mental foreplay?

Oh well guess we will never know shall we have a nice day and sorry for any doubt on trash talk maybe.

Also I would like to end it with I think the best thing to do is

Umm not sure if you are aware of just how offensive some people migth take such remarks/ hints. But then again English is not my native tounge so I may be mistaken after all, but I would perhaps consider toning it down when you are around people outside the internet

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
I dont know I never even said anything offensive and I promise you I was flagged and you several are already on the back foot to prove me wrong. Or am I just saying this to prove that I can make you get ready for a fight? Or maybe I am trying to defend myself who knows or maybe this is just a pointless jess to show the merit of mental foreplay?

Oh well guess we will never know shall we have a nice day and sorry for any doubt on trash talk maybe.

Also I would like to end it with I think the best thing to do is

Oh please. My eyes roll any further and they'll drop out of my head.

Well that goes for me as well.
I am often somewhat confused just how vile some people can be when playing with toy soldiers, or board/ card games for that matter. Is this not a hobby one dose for amusment?

Its not even vile, its just comedy absurd!

"Oh maybe I'm picking a fight, maybe I'm not, but maybe I am. See my verbal parry and thrust here. See my better breeding qualities. Gordon Gekko, me, red braces Alpha male"

Right, my space marines to move now *nerd chatter*

I both laugh and sneer at this, especially when its for WARHAMMER 40,000

What a rapier wit!

[MOD EDIT - PLEASE DO NOT POST "IMAGE ONLY" POSTS - Alpharius]

Oh dear. If this is the sterling example of trash talk, then someone please post him the guidebook.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

I have several issues with your argument here...

Have an exalt for quite the well-written argument for being a decent person.

Guess I'm not on at the right time to watch these things unfold.

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

I have several issues with your argument here...

Have an exalt for quite the well-written argument for being a decent person.

Guess I'm not on at the right time to watch these things unfold.

Was a good post, yes. The Chubby chap was out to troll from the first apparently, but its still interesting to see how people approach their game of toy soldiers.

How do people usually approach their 'games of toy soldiers'?

Personally, I have a minor panic attack during deployment and the first turn, then settle down for the game.

Another guy in my local gaming circuit cannot finish a game without blaming his deck or his dice if he loses.

Personal gaming sins? I make tactical suggestions for my opponent if I believe they are making a mistake. I try to stay polite, I wash before a game day, I bring multiple printed lists and if anyone accuses me of using loaded dice I invite others to use them as well. I try to stay within WYSIWYG, I try to limit the number of models I have on the board at once to <50 models. Lastly, I try not to scoop: I will always play through (if someone wants to win in a certain way, why not pay them the compliment of allowing them to do so?)

Yours?

Easy - arrange a game, set the scenario, turn up and settle down for an evening in the company of couple of old friends.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Was a good post, yes. The Chubby chap was out to troll from the first apparently, but its still interesting to see how people approach their game of toy soldiers.

Sorry about that.

I mis-identified who was originally writing what posts. I'm not too great at keeping who wrote what straight since I'm on through my phone and most of the personal identifiers that would otherwise be available are hidden.

So, I was a bit too hasty with the judgment. I apologize for that.



As for approaching 40k, I know that since I am rather competative I get a bit salty if I get stomped too hard, but I've been trying to force myself to overcome that lately so I can be a better opponent. Learning to lose gracefully and still have fun in the process is the ultimate goal, but it's being difficult. I'm gettung some decent practice at it since one of our friends is starting to play. He's pretty decent for only having 2 games in, so I am trying to stick to lists that will challenge him but ultimately lose.

Otherwise, I do my best to be a decent person about it. I avoid spamming models and proxy as little as possible (usually a different weapon here or there at most). But, I've only played in one local tournament, so a lot of my tendencies lean casual.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

I have several issues with your argument here. First of all is this assumption that smack talking is some superb "Art of War" level stratagem to be used when there's money on the line. Which is clearly and, I feel, demonstrably untrue. Professional poker players don't do it, and there's way more money riding on that game than a 40k tournament. I'm not even convinced 40k players actually engage in it regularly, especially with strangers. As we are in the tournament forum, feel free to dip in your oar to dispute this, o ye onlookers.

Professional poker players do engage in table talk, or banter, or trash talk. Tony G is probably the most famous example of this. "On yer bike" is a bit of a meme.

Earlier in this thread I stated that (good) trash talk is a skill in a well rounded skill set. To clarify, I am referring to well-crafted banter or jests. Simply insulting a stranger's mother is very rarely good trash talk.

edit: added a link to Tony G in case anyone is interested enough to click a link but not enough to google it themselves.

Trash talk me and I'll smile politely, win the game, then bottle you in the car lot after the game, no witnesses.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Trash talk me and I'll smile politely, win the game, then bottle you in the car lot after the game, no witnesses.

A man after my taste, you would not happen to be single would you

Banter is good, I usually keep it about the models and their fluff (e.g. a friend of mine plays Khorne and I call his models "dumb brutes" and call my characters idiots when they fail to cast spells), because I and several other players are "not the best a social nuance", it adds to immersion and I stop if my opponent doesn't join in by the end of turn 2.
"Trash talk" can be fun too, by my definition, which basically banter centered around exaggerated bravado (with the objective of humour or lightening the mood).
Not everyone likes either, I'm not very partial to the latter.

I knew a guy who used to try psychological tricks on his opponents, some of them may have worked (he was good at manipulating people in general), but I doubt they made a big difference. If the other person saw through it it was just annoying and made the game unpleasant for no reason. He was also very fond of "dirty tricks" and rule sets that allowed them (in ancients there are several different sets of rules you can play with the same figures, no one has copyright in history).
Do note the past tense, it says what you need to know about him.

The only major sort of tournament I've ever really played in is the GW School League. The worst thing about is definitely some of the 12 year olds that you get drawn against, who are exicitedly boasting about their new WK or something that will wipe you in one turn. For these sorts of opponents I like to compliment their army to make them feel really good and boost their egos. Usually they end up overextending and I end up tabling them. However, if your opponent is a good player then it seems stupid to piss them off right?

People who feel the need to trash talk/sledge/banter the other players generally aren't good enough players to win without it, so its a crutch for them.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
People who feel the need to trash talk/sledge/banter the other players generally aren't good enough players to win without it, so its a crutch for them.

Well, banter between friends is fun, and trash-talk can be about your stuff, so it's not "universally" true.

Lord Kragan wrote:

Well, banter between friends is fun, and trash-talk can be about your stuff, so it's not "universally" true.

Exactly this. The best banter when I play is against the army, albeit a thinly disguised banter against the general.

When his poor Orcs fail all of their throws and every dice fails to hit, we will trash talk that unit into a bunch of in-bred, pigeon-toed, cross-eyed momma's boys that clearly left all their weapons at home in favor of their favorite 'blankie', instead of getting after the actual player.

Yes, banter and a sort of trash talk makes the game more fun for me, but I would never personally attack the player, since I choose not to be that kind of person.

As far as the rage quitters? I have had my moments in tourneys where after a humiliating turn I wanted to sweep the rest of my army off the table and go home. If my opponent would have started degrading me, I probably would have done just that. But, you keep going because the game is fun.

If your fellow left simply because he was outplayed and you did not disrespect him, then the tourney is a better place without him and shame on him to deny you and the other players what they came to the tournament for - a good time playing a game.

There is a difference between playful banter and trash-talk. Playful banter is fun, and helps games to be a little less serious. Trash-talking is just the opposite: it's designed to "psych out" your opponent, something most wargame/boardgame players find offensive. I can tell you I'd get pretty riled up if someone was continually trash-talking me and putting me down the entire game, whether or not I end up losing the game. Trash-talking me is a surefire way to earn a bad sportsmanship score from me (if the event in question has a sportsmanship score). Playful banter, on the other hand, I enjoy and engage in frequently (unless its obvious my opponent doesn't like it).