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We don't know the powers yet and I sure hope they aren't a complete copy of the space marine versions, but I wouldn't be surprised to see at least some some overlap.
So I'm wondering what that would mean for csm? Would they change how you play the game?

Looking at Fulmination, Fists of lightning, magnetokinesis and electrodisplacement seem particularly interesting.
Fist of lightning would work pretty well with the black mace and the other two would allow for first/second turn charges quite easily considering we can put our sorcerers on jetbikes and we could cast them on flying princes. Finally some use for the dimensional key? The 5 man helbrute squad also comes to mind or a pack of blood slaughterers. Oldschool rage isn't so bad when you can fling them across the board. I could see more 20 man units making an appearance with this.

Librarius doesn't seem to offer much more to csm than c:sm, although veil of time makes tzeentch a little more interesting. Even makes the magnus scroll less risky. Gogo TSons!

Geokinesis could make for one seriously ridiculously hard to kill nurgle lord (in combination with other stuff). And between forcing get's hot, FW and dangerous/difficult terrain ( the key comes to mind again) we can force saves on a whole bunch of units during the enemies movement, shooting and even assault phase. Probably not tourny worthy, but the sheer amount should cause some damage over time. At the very least it would allow for a fluffy defiling theme, so pretty nice for nurgle and word bearers. Phase form gives special weapon havocs and chosen a new option or even nurgle raptors to keep with the theme.

Technomancy would allow the conclave to fire BOTH enemy vehicles and infantry, nothing would be safe anymore. Our characters can put a lot of hurt on vehicles with these powers. Machine curse, fury of mars, electro pulse, etc, eye of night and the warpsmith debuff coupled with the mobility of a jetbike and all the difficult terrain options. Not to mention that we can put all of these things onto flying daemon princes. And wtfbbq to warpmetal armour if we do end up keeping that. Mark of nurgle for everybody, including nurgle units woot. Or dominate the skies with daemons and hellblades. We'd also be able to buff some of our daemon engines better than the loyalists, being daemons as well as vehicles.

I'm surprised the disciplines are this fluffy for csm even as is, especially if they adapt the descriptions. Overall, though not much seems to change in value. Flying princes make some of the powers more interesting for us though. The powers don't seem to change viability of units, whatever's "good" now, would still be taken imho. With the possible exception of 20 man csm units and berzerkers, since there are potentially three powers to get them into assault by turn two. Even with that, possessed/talons are still eh due to the lack of grenades. Don't see much change happening for slaaneshi csm at all, other than perhaps making assaults easier. Same for khorne, though I could see them getting an updated butcher horde formation. Which might be interesting.

"Combined with Daemons" is the first thing I'm seeing:
Geokinesis would make for some interesting combinations by itself: If you thought Fateweaver was a tough customer to deal with beforehand, imagine Fateweaver after being healed with Earthblood. (Alternately, a GUO as an annoying anchor-point). Shifting Worldscape likewise would let Chaos actually get into the fight and help a lot with their mobility issues. And of course, there's that power which is basically a better "Perfect Timing", which could let your Autohavocs hide behind terrain and rain havoc (ha!).

Technomancy is definitely usable, though hopefully Chaos will get the option for Vehicle Squadrons. It gives Chaos a "Haywire" option they previously lack, which gives them at least a probable anti-tank vector that isn't "Termicide", or "Throw enough Havocs/Maulerfiends at it." The Power of the Machine Spirit ability is "cute" in that you could use it for letting a Defiler actually work in the first place, or letting a Forgefiend split-fire (hopefully with the formation letting it use Warpsmith BS), but this is a gimmick.

Librarius won't be too hot, simply because you don't have any reliable "Deathstar" units; you don't have anything with the same durability **and** speed as a Thunderwolf Bubble.

That said and done, even if we have a copy-paste, they would give "extra powers" which are not unappreciated.

Hmm true, I didn't consider the mix of daemons proper and csm. Seems to be limited to certain formations though, which makes me wonder how much we can really do on that front.
I forgot to mention ahriman, though I feel like technomancy would be the most useful for him. Especially Machine flense. I suppose you could even put him in unit of obliterators for some faux nurgle oblits with warpmetal armour. That would also do wonders vs flyers iirc.
Would PotMS work with a defiler to shoot all of it's guns at a decent BS? That would work quite well, run up and shoot your preferred melee target and use PotSM to fire the ordance at some other target. They'd actually be able use all their weapons for a change to be a threat at any range. Like a wannabe kytan. Which also happens to be in flavour with the
Black Legion.

as for librarius, Death star or not, rerolling all saves is still rerolling all saves. And might of heroes is amazing with daemon weapons or daemon princes

As a Thousand Sons player who regularly runs 7 or 8 sorcerers in an 1850 list, I am very excited about the possibility of having more options.
Typically I am relying entirely on (in order) telepathy, biomancy, and sanctic. While these make for a powerful combination, it can become rather stale and predictable after awhile.
Although a unit of 20 Thousand Sons on 32mm bases with invisibility, endurance, and sanctuary can exercise a surprising amount of board control.

Now that the psychic powers sure known, I can see some definite possibilities.
Some of those powers are amazing. Stacked with biomancy, you can really beat some face.
Even with Thousand Sons.

Rubric Marines are garbage and really shouldn't be part of this discussion.

While Rubrics are absolutely over costed, we now have the ability to move them 18" in the psyker phase and give them ignores cover.... They could do some serious damage to those mobile bike/jetbike armies with ignores cover AP3.

And you expect Eldar not to take Farseers and Warlocks? They'll easily deny some of those powers. And... gone is that strategy.

@Khorneonthecob: Absolutely correct. Plus the ability to increase toughness, and increase invulnerable saves. These paired with something like endurance and/or invisibility will make them quite strong.

@Slayer-Fan23: I realize that they are over-costed, but Rubrics are certainly not the 'garbage' which many claim they are. They simply require a level of tactical finesse which, obviously, is not suitable for everyone. I understand that this discussion is not about rubrics, however, please understand that they are my troops of choice. They will therefore be part of the context when I am discussing chaos tactics. I apologize for any misunderstanding in this regard.

 jifel wrote:

Spoiler:

Above are scans of the new CSM powers. They are all identical in function to the SM versions.

Makes me wonder, have you ever faced Wulfen + libconclave wiht this swap powers? They can easilly get turn 1 charges using droppodded marines or scouts.

Cyclopia Cabal+Maelstrom of Gore: roll for Shifting Worldscape, park a huge blob or multiple units of Berzerkers on a ruin, surf right into the enemy and crash your earthen wave upon their shore.

I use SM and have played a few games with their new psychic powers. Shifting terrain is powerful, but on the tabletop, can be a bit harder to use in application, especially depending on the terrain density of the board. Also, keep in mind, some tournaments for practicality reasons have banned it.

Electrodisplacement I've found is the real powerhouse, much more difficult to counter for opponents and silly effective, for only WC2. If I had to ban one, I know which one it would be!

Some wicked synergy that CSM have is instead of Drop pod units, They can electro displace with a FMC.

So FMC moves forward 24"
Bike Sorceror unit move 12" and swaps.

Sorc unit gets Turn 1 charge, and FMC runs, putting him 12+D6" forward, and now gliding again, so he can charge T2.
Probably not in too much danger, as anything that can threaten it, is tied up by the sorc unit.

I'm kind of bummed with how lazy the new powers are, since they're exact copies of the astartes ones with new names.

However, I guess that's better than them being WORSE, at least.

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
@Khorneonthecob: Absolutely correct. Plus the ability to increase toughness, and increase invulnerable saves. These paired with something like endurance and/or invisibility will make them quite strong.

@Slayer-Fan23: I realize that they are over-costed, but Rubrics are certainly not the 'garbage' which many claim they are. They simply require a level of tactical finesse which, obviously, is not suitable for everyone. I understand that this discussion is not about rubrics, however, please understand that they are my troops of choice. They will therefore be part of the context when I am discussing chaos tactics. I apologize for any misunderstanding in this regard.

There's no tactical finesse with them. 10 vanilla marines with two Plasma Guns are more durable and do more damage against a bigger variety of targets (especially once they get cover). Creating a CAD with two Cultists and a Sorcerer is only 10 points more than a minimum Rubric squad.

On top of that, making them troops requires a MoT Sorcerer. There's no benefit to this and therefore we shouldn't be discussing junk and figure out the best way to make the new bonuses we have competitive.

@Slayer-Fan123

But I like the models, so that what I use.
Successfully, I might add.
Your mileage, obviously, may vary.

However, you and I will clearly not agree on this and, as you correctly pointed out, this thread is not about Rubrics, so I suggest we drop it.

There's no mileage to get with them. That's a bad argument.

@Slayer-Fan123- So far, the most factual and intelligent thing which you have posted is that the discussion should not be about Rubric marines.
You are %100 correct in this regard, and I completely agree with you.
Feel free to have the final word, as I will not derail this thread.
Should you ever find yourself in the Sarasota, Florida area feel free to PM me if you would like to arrange a game at our FLGS.
You sound like a worthy adversary.

I was wondering if predators might make a a comeback. Two or three predators in a squadron with heavy bolters and havoc launchers, possibly warpflame gargoyles too. Hide them somewhere and buff with phase form. That's quite a few shots with ignore cover for relatively cheap.

I hope so. I'd love to see some more tank heavy Iron Warriors type armies out there.
I always thought they were cool.

wrong forum

On first glance I'm not that impressed by the new psychic powers. Soulswitch is a game changer though and I'd probably try that discipline against Tau, since movement is always important against them and unlike others DS4 weapons are actually good against them.
But with the other disciplines I'm not sure of they can beat telepathy, biomancy and divination. For me the most important aspect is the primary power and they seem to be quite weak to me. Warp charge 2 for rockmaw seems too much, corrupt machine needs a strong vehicle on the other side AND a roll off so it's hard to get through and small blasts are generally not that impressive.
A geomortis psyker with ley leach and earthly anathema can be a nice boost to a squad of oblits, but is it better than prescience?

Grab your mustard because there is going to be a lot of Khornedog stars in the near future. Honestly the new SM powers just contribute to deathstars being a thing and now they copy and pasted the powers for CSM (which makes them available for Daemons to benefit from them).

So... if you use soulswitch to switch places with an enemy unit that's in melee with one of your units.... could you end up in melee with your own unit?

It'S a blessing , so you can only target your own units.

 Vankraken wrote:
Grab your mustard because there is going to be a lot of Khornedog stars in the near future. Honestly the new SM powers just contribute to deathstars being a thing and now they copy and pasted the powers for CSM (which makes them available for Daemons to benefit from them).

Getting my gore pack ready!

The thing is that 20 dogs is as big as you can get and it's a huge footprint and even with some serious buffs it's not nearly as dangerous as imperial death stars.

What I really want to play is more of a multiple re-inforcing dog squads with psyckers spread out. I think a really fun army would be gore pack with 4 squads of 10 dogs and 9 sorcerers from two cabals.

With all the new powers plus telepathy and biomancy and sanctic you can just keep rolling new charts as you get the power you want.

Invisibility
shrouding
endurance
Iron arm
sanctic
hammerhand
veil of time (or equivalent)
(the switch one?)

you could even go on malefic because you can use an endurance on a sorcerer to try an avoid the perils.

and I'm sure a bunch of others I don't know on the top of my head.

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
@Slayer-Fan123- So far, the most factual and intelligent thing which you have posted is that the discussion should not be about Rubric marines.
You are %100 correct in this regard, and I completely agree with you.
Feel free to have the final word, as I will not derail this thread.
Should you ever find yourself in the Sarasota, Florida area feel free to PM me if you would like to arrange a game at our FLGS.
You sound like a worthy adversary.

Sadly, Aspiring Sorcerors don't really benefit from Traitor's Hate - they're still bound by the need to take one (their only) power from the Tzeench discipline, so even though they theoretically have access to the new disciplines (and daemonology) they can't generate powers from it.

Ahriman, on the other hand, is very nice. A lot of the new disciplines are witchfires, and more importantly a lot of them have witchfire primaris powers (which he can reliably take). The Ectomancy primaris is essentially two half-range heavy bolters.....which "War On Fate" boy can unload three times in succession for a pittance of warp charge.

The Geomortis discipline is particularly nice as well - Thousand Sons have a bit of a weakness against hordes (because an expensive AP3 bolter kills an ork no deader than a normal one) which soul blaze from the icon doesn't really make up for. Causing a huge guard blob or green tide to take a dangerous terrain test en masse is a very good answer to big units.

So, a Chaos Daemon Prince can take these powers too. The only real issue is you're now creeping into the points-cost of a Knight.

I imagine if you were running a Black Legion Daemon Prince, you could give him the Eternal Warrior relic. Beyond that, every Ectomancy power looks like it would combo well.
-Empyric Shield gives your Prince a 3++, combine with a nearby Cursed Earth for 2++, combine with Daemon of Tzeentch to reroll 1s.
-Daemonshriek gives you a Nova Haywire, and you can Swoop. It seems tailor-made to punish mass light vehicles.
-Infernal Claws will require a FAQ ruling. Do the additional S5 hits benefit from Smash? If yes...
-Ghost Storm provides utility, and Electrodisplacement has already been discussed. Really, the only powers you don't really care for are Coruscating Blaze and the Primaris.

Shame Daemon Princes are expensive enough as is, but for more casual games you can have something that's amusingly scary.

On a more serious note, I still feel Geomortis and Heretech will be the more "serious" disciplines to use generally speaking (since Princes are that overcosted). Geomortis for literal board control/moving terrain around, and the "Better" Perfect Timing, Heretech for the mix of anti-Knight, and buffing your own things (AV 14 Soulgrinders).

Regarding Geomortis and moving terrain around, I really don't see it being used for slamming units into assault. You're not Space Wolves with a Thunderbubble. No, what you *can* do with it is more...underhanded.

Like, you know that Cult of Destruction people have been harping on about? The one with Obliterators and double-firing and stuff? And that Warpsmith that can't Deep Strike but has that fancy Guidance Ritual trick he can do, but besides that he's mostly a tax?
Hide him in a small unit of Mutilators or so. Yes, Mutilators.
Stick him in by a Promethium Relay (Fortifications are terrain pieces) and preferably give him a Combi-Weapon.
Have the rest of the Obliterators do their thing.
Worldscape the Relay around with the and use the Promethium Relay to grant his Flamers Torrent. Oh, and they're Heavy, but you don't particularly care because you're also Relentless.

I can almost see a list concept around:
-Daemonkin CAD: Flesh Hounds, and maybe some Soulgrinder support for fun. Nothing prevents you from attaching a Herald to a unit of Nurgle Obliterators btw. Thanks GW!
-Cult of Destruction: At least two units of Obliterators, and one Mutilator bodyguard for the mandatory Warpsmith.
-Cyclopea Cabal: (Hide them in some Flesh Hound packs).

Infernal Claws would be broken if it wasn't so random. Every hit you cause in CC counts, not just melee.
That's the combat familiar, ichor blood, HoW, spectral assailants, Icy Aura from the boons.And that's not counting warp speed or the extra attack from infernal claws, or other attack buffs like Hysterical frenzy. The bonus hits aren't affected by smash due to the fix AP and codex over brb, but they are affected by rending.

A prince with daemon weapon could basically become a one man army if the stars align. It's utterly unrealistic, but fun to think about lol.