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If I ever acquire enough money to buy Warhammer this is how I, Golden Islands, would change it.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




I have recently rekindled my interest for warhammer, I have been playing warhammer pc games and been reading many warhammer novels.

This is when I found out about the end time and the age of Sigmar.

If I ever acquire enough money to buy Warhammer this is how I would change it.

I was going to post this on warhammer.org.uk as well, but just last week they disabled the ability to register new accounts, just my luck

Anyway tell me what you think, constructive criticism, random thoughts and ideas are always appreciated

Each paragraph is stand alone and can be removed or changed as seen fit, nothing is written in stone.

Feel free to tell me what you think, you do not of course need to read all of it, a comment on any section would be fine

The World

I would bring back to the old warhammer fantasy world. That does not mean that age of Sigmar would be thrown out. Just as there is warhammer 40k and warhammer age of Sigmar, there would be warhammer fantasy of the old world in addition to that.

Unlike GW who constantly made everything darker and more grim because it is ”cool”, I want to install a bit more light and hope. Because I understand that you can not only have darkness and corruption with more corruption and darkness there needs to be light, there needs to be hope.

There would be less of the corruption and oppression that is currently described in the warhammer universe in the lands of men, because people who oppress others would surely be tempted by chaos and many of those who are oppressed would turn to chaos to gain power so to strike down their oppressors.

Time

The current year would be around 1525 not 2525, because the Empire could barely survive 300-400 years without magic, so the war against chaos that was 200 years ago was around 1300 not 2300.

Religion

I would possibly decrease the number of human gods, since there are so many and modify, change some of the current gods. All the old world human deities would have the same name in all the old world nations. Affariche, Haendryk, Kalita, Mercopio, O Prospero who are all merchant gods would be merged into one god, female. Albaluea, the god of farming would change name and would be a male god.

The Farming God

A farming god would be the number one worshiped god of all humans everywhere including the Empire, Sigmar would be worshiped by the nobility in the Empire, but for the common man the farming god would be the predominant deity.

The farming gods priests would bless the land and crops giving many more harvests per year, possibly 5 in comparison to 1. Life (nature) magic wizards can do the same, however one needs to make sure they also ”heal” the soil so that one doesn’t get soil depletion, ”healing” soil is more magically difficult than ”speed growing” crops. The farming god is relatively ”new” something like maybe a few hundred years since the first peasants began worshiping him and first priests appeared or possibly less and maybe a few decades ago was when he became ”mainstream” and surpassed all other human deities as the nr 1 human god. And with him came the potato a revolutionary crop which increased food supply several times and most importantly of course booze, but only the people of Kislev know how to make booze from potatoes and possibly some Norsca farmers too. (In the real worlds history the potato changed everything because not only does it yield more food per planted square yard than grain, it also makes more potent alcohol, so in the real world a farmer needed to use more of his crops to get completely blastered but with potatoes he could get blastered on far less crops thereby allowing his wife and children more food so that they grow healthier and survived longer and in greater numbers. This is how the Nordic countries advanced.)

The Farmers of Kislev learned about the Potato before the Farming god was known, perhaps 50 years. And the people learnt to make Vodka long before the farming god came. Maybe 300 years before the first farming god priests were beginning to spread the word of the farming god.

The Merchant God

The merchant god would have temples that operate like banks anyone could deposit money and withdraw money, it would be safe and guaranteed, the ownership would be checked with acolytes/priests sensing the aura of a person. This sensing would work for almost everyone without problems except magical users both arcane and divine who’s aura would grow/change, however skilled priests would be able to identify the aura. There would be almost no theft or alteration of records within the ”church” and those few who did usually did so because they had turned to chaos. With enough spells and prayers the real numbers can be recovered.

When depositing or withdrawing money from the merchant gods temple, the owner has a small ledger book where the acolyte / priests writes down the transaction. These ledger books are only formalities since the temple magically records the numbers. These records are then, somehow I don't know the details yet, transferred to other temples so a person can withdraw their money anywhere they like and deposit in any temple and it all adds up.

The merchant god does not offer magical transfer services between different people, so if a person wants to give money to another person, the money has to physically be transported. And one can not say I wish to deposit X amount into Y persons account. Each account is unique and can only be accessed by the owner.

The merchant gods temples would usually have marketplaces / squares, where traders, sellers and merchants could set up stands and sell their goods. Small sections would be free and larger ones would be charged a ”reasonable” rate. Sometimes around these squares shops will be established and that is how a merchant district grows, sometimes.

The merchant gods priests and acolytes also goes after people who shave, mill or in other ways damage coins with the purpose of fraudulent behavior.

Verena

Possibly splitting Verena into two gods, one would be Justice the other knowledge and learning.

Priests and acolytes of Verena would form a ”police force” where allowed, seldom in the Empire with its corruption, but quite often in Kislev, almost every large town in Kislev has at least one ”House of Verena”.

Shallya

Shallya would have both male and female priests, there would be more female acolytes with lower level of power than men, and more female clergy overall however at the upper levels of divine magical power it would be equal. So more females overall in the organization, more females with low amount of power, then as the power each individual increases so does the amount of men , and equal amount at the top tier of power.

Temples of Shallya are where people go to learn about healing and medicine, anyone who wants to learn about treating sick people and curing people with non magical aid, studies in a temple of Shallya. Basically temples of Shallyas do what medical schools do today, plus of course divine magic for those who can wield it. And possibly the temples teach arcane magical healers as well.

Priests of Shallya do not weep in their sleep.

Sigmar

Sigmar priest are split something like 70/30 or 80/20 between male and female priests

Priests of Sigmar can not cast healing spells. (Not certain about this one, maybe they can but only ”weak” versions.

Morr

Priests of Morr can not cast spells that reanimate undead.

Myrmidia

Myrmidia would have both male and female priests, 50/50 split.

Money

The money system would be changed, 100 coppers would be 1 silver and 100 silvers would be 1 gold, not how it is now with 12 coppers being 1 silver and 20 silver being 1 gold as described on page 103 in the 2nd edition of warhammer fantasy roleplay.

Dwarf coins would be the most difficult to shave, mill or damage, second would be elven coins, then after that maybe Kislev or Estalian coins, and Empire coins being the ”easiest”. The coins would be protected in different degrees by special manufacturing techniques that makes them very damage resistant, especially dwarven coins.

An average peasant who doesn’t get magical aid, divine or arcane, revenue per year is 1.25 gold, and that is revenue not profit. The profit is something like 5-15 silvers depending on skill and equipment. The peasant can feed his family and the ”profit” is how much he has left after that expense is factored in as well. So the profit is coin in hand so to speak. When you factor in the farming gods aid the revenue increases but market forces of supply and demand fight back so even though they get 5 harvests the profits ”only” increase 2,5 or so times. And that if he is not planting potatoes, potatoes give him even more revenue and profit and booze! These are just market theories and would need way more refinement but it is a start.

Magic

Magic would be a bit different, there would be a clear difference from when The Empire didn't allow magic and now when it does, a significant difference in fighting ability.

Anyone can join any priesthood, if they are of the correct alignment and spirit, however some are more naturally gifted with divine magic than others so some will progress further with divine magical abilities than others.

Some people are born with a gift for magic and they are the ones who can learn arcane magic, unlike now where anyone can learn but some better than others.

Acolytes in collages of magic are taught minor spells and as one advances one is though more complicated spells, but everyone is taught spells, unlike now where an acolyte can possibly never be taught a single spell.

Less chance of magical miscast, once a person knows a spell he can cast it as much as he likes, the problem comes when trying to cast a spell the requires more power than one can control or summon forth, that is when there is a risk of miscast. Not how it is described in the warhammer fantasy roleplay rulebook with a 1 in 10 chance of miscast for a lower level mage and then rolling on the miscast table risking corruption and whatnot. Because with the 1 in 10 chance basically it is guaranteed that the wizard will become severely damaged after casting only 1000 spells which might sound like a lot until you think how often one most practice per day to just master 1 spell, if you only cast 3 times a day well after 1 year you have reached 1000, basically it might be good for an rpg adventure where the character only ”lives” during that adventure but not for the back story of warhammer.

Light magic would offer healing like it has done in 7th edition and earlier versions of warhammer and it would not be as ”magically expensive” to cast as is described but the same amount of effort as other schools of magic. Life magic which is nature magic would possibly have some healing spells but far less potent that light magic spells, more in the line of thinking that you can achieve the same result by 2 different means. Example you can cast a fireball on a tree and the tree will start burning, you can cast a lighting bolt on a tree and it might start burning, same end result but different ways. Life magic would have abilities to ”heal” trees and plants restore their functions etc, and this could be used to heal people but far more magically expensive and less effective than light magic spells, and light magic spells could ”heal” trees and plants but less effective than life magic.

Healing magic both divine and arcane can regrow limbs and teeth, of course it takes time and is somewhat difficult, but possible. So to regrow an arm that has been cut at the elbow would take 3-4 hours for an average skilled acolyte who has studied magic for about 3-4 years. Reattaching the cut off arm however is much easier, even if it has been a few hours since it happened or even days, just even having the bones help. However one can not attach a body part from another person or creature the magic doesn’t work that way, it needs to be the persons own body part, the blood vessels don’t line up and the “auras” aren’t the same. That type of magic would be necromancy and dark magic to do such things. Not certain however about internal organs such as livers kidneys could be put from one person into another, but external parts, definitely no.

Gold/Metal magic cant change one metal into another. Also possibly the removal of metal magic.

Not only can a wizard access the winds of magic but he also generates his own magic and this is of course one of the 8 if he is a human wizard, or several if elven wizard, not certain yet about elves.

Arcane magic is not spoken but quiet, divine magic is spoken and in uses specific words, possibly the language of the gods or language of that specific deity. The better you know and pronounce the language the better ”connection” you get to the good and the stronger your spells are.

All magic wizards ”heal” themselves a little, basically they can function on less food than a normal person, a wizard will live longer than a normal person and recover from wounds a bit faster, light magic wizards are the ones who heal the fastest can go the longest on less food and live the longest. A non light or life wizard will live to an average of 130 years, a life wizard average of 170 and an average light wizard can live to 300. A light wizard can theoretically live forever however that would require serious skill and of course not dying in battle which is the far more common cause of death for a wizard than high age.

Because all mages “heal” themselves a bit, they grow taller, healthier and stronger than an average person, because the magic helps them a bit to cover not eating optimal food, not sleeping at optimal intervals etc etc. Therefore light magic wizards are often tall and physically strong individuals.

Most if not all light mages are good or neutral, a majority good, a minority neutral. Don't know the %.

Most if not all life mages are neutral and good, a majority neutral a minority good. Don't know the %.

Light magic can not cause earth quakes those spells belong to Jade and of course its sub category Earth magic.

The more magic a wizard uses the more tired he gets, so casting many spells or powerful spells makes a wizard feel drained and fatigue. However if a wizard does not cast or practice any spells he would require less sleep, than a normal person, because of the wizards ”natural healing”. Practice, skill and natural ability determine how much a wizard can cast per day.

Fire magic is by far the most common magic type for humans.

Magical schools are free and there is no 40 gold debt when a wizard begins to adventure like now in the Empire.

Human wizards are ”specialists” and can theoretically exceed elves in their specific field of learning. For example a human wizard of average ability can become better than an average elf if they studied for the exact amount of time. However since elves live longer and have a far greater collection of written magical lore and a more established teaching system, than this seldom happens, but theoretically it could.

Human magic before Teclis taught would be a mix of elamentalist magic as described by ”mad albert” and the warhammer fantasy supplement from 1995, Realms of Sorcery, plus a splash of how warhammer magic works now, possibly healing schools, defensive schools, something half similar to how the 8 split is done but not exactly like it.

The collages of magic in Kislev have always studied the nature of magic to understand it better than the Empire and Marienburg collages and the Kislev wizards have a deeper understanding of the essence of magic that all other nations of the old world with the possible exception of Albion.

The collages of magic in Marienburg have always studied the nature of magic to understand it better and they have made some progress towards understanding it, less than those in Kislev, but more than those in the Empire.

The collages of magic in Altdorf have begun to study the nature on magic, not as much as the mages of Kislev and Marienburg have done but more than the current warhammer world describes.

The schools of magic that existed in the empire before Teclis can basically be seen as sub categories of the 8 collages of magic. With the exception of fire magic which is fire magic.

Wind magic is sub specialization of some of the celestial magic.

Water magic is a sub specialization of some of Jade magic

Earth magic is a sub specialization of some of Jade magic, earth quake spells are very difficult to cast and very very few mages posses that ability, and when they do manage to cast them they are ”reasonable” earth quakes, the earth quakes do not shake the tectonic plates but possibly just the tops soil of the ground maybe a foot or maybe less down, but the ground does shake.

Healing magic a sub category of some of light magic.

Death magic mages or Priests of Morr can not communicate in other peoples dreams.

Death magic mages telepathy would possibly be removed or weakened a bit.

Possibly only the Slann are capable of telepathy.

Necromancy would be a bit different, currently a necromancer or vampire can raise a limitless amount of bodies if only they are close enough and instantly, this for me is much to powerful because all that he needs to do is raise and attack raise and attack continuously and do serious damage, even if he is defeated then the next necromancer or vampire that comes around a few years later could do the same thing. My changes would be that an ok skilled necromancer needs about 8-10 days to create 1 walking corpse, if he works about 10 hours a day and if there are “raw materials” available. So after 10 years of work he would have about 300-400 corpses and could with that army and his own magic he could harass several villages and do serious damage. A skilled necromancer can maybe create a corps in 3-5 days but he can also create bigger “constructs”.

Possibly removal of all teleportation spells, except when a daemon is destroyed, and possibly allow Slann to be able to teleport some distance away if they are about to fall in battle.

Possibly the removal of the Skaven escape teleportation spell, or have it be a mix of arcane and divine spell which the Horned rats sometimes grants its servants if they prey for it.

Nations

Marienburg

The Marienburg split happened when magic was outlawed in the empire and the mages emigrated to Marienburg, this all happened under the Emperor Goldgather who rules around year 1000 or so, maybe 900, the mages and the armies there inflict huge losses on the magic-less Emperors armies. When the Marieburg split happened or some time after, some of the humans were able to convince some elves with some magical ability to teach them some things, so Mareinburg would have 8 collages of magic, plus their sea magic collage.

When Magic was forbidden in the Empire, mages would emigrate, usually to Merienburg or Kislev, but sometimes even further, and this would continue until magic was allowed again.

The Marienburg navy is mostly defensive and has some merchant vessels which trade in the old world and as far as Araby an average of one ship every few months or so travel there. Sometimes, very rarely, a ship will make a trip to the far east but it happens rarely since the trips is very dangerous and the far is east is far away. Maybe once every 5 years a captain decides and succeeds in traveling there and coming back.

Kislev

Kislev would have magical colleges in Erengrad, 8 collages and the conclusions for the 8 different would have come from the Kislev people themselves who figured it out and then after had some help and confirmation by some elves. The College of Ice Magic would be in Kislev and there would be both male and female ice mages. The God Ursun would have chain mail armor and not like now where he is in his underwear. They would have bear riders who wield well made 1handed axes and shields and would wear mostly chain mail, and sometimes full plate if they could afford it. Very few would be ”evil”, there would mostly be good and neutral people there. Kislev would have some type of power sharing where there was a Tzar and Tzarina and some form of noble representation in some type of “assembly” who could vote and have some power.

In Kislev all mages are called either acolytes, wizards with some title before or after the word wizard or mages. There are no official titles “witches”, and no mage would tolerate being called a witch, and no normal person would call a wizard that because of both respect of their talents, and fear of what a mage might do to them.

Kislev would be completely different than it is now, the people of Kislev would be mostly “good stable” people, there would be no serfs or slaves, vastly less corruption and oppression because Kislev on the border with chaos could simply not afford any of it.

Since Kislev is so close to the border of chaos some of those who would be susceptible to chaos would be drawn to chaos before they have children, thereby leaving those who are a bit more chaos resistant to have more children than those who are susceptible.

Since Kislev is so close to the border of chaos, there would be magics both divine and arcane developed to check if someone is tainted by chaos and there would be regular checks both magical and non magical to see if one is tainted, for example once a week or two citizens need to undress together with the other villagers in the village hall or in a temple with all other members of the same gender in front of the village elders, or something like that. Regular checks. If done properly won't take more than maybe half an hour or less.

Because of these regular checks both magical and non magical there are few chaos people who can live hidden in society thereby forcing them to move, thereby allowing individuals who are less chaos susceptible to have more children than those who are chaos susceptible thereby increasing the % of individuals who are less chaos susceptible, which has given the current population mix in Kislev of “good stable” people. Because of these checks basically a somewhat less chaos susceptible population has been bred forward, as in won't easily worship the chaos gods or turn towards chaos.

These checks, “breeding”, tradition and history has given a population that is neutral and good, with a very few evil individuals and those who are evil are a bit less susceptible to chaos than those humans who are evil in other lands. That does not mean the evil people are less evil, just they wont turn to chaos as often but some of course do.

To clarify, the “breeding” is not something mandated or ordered, it just happened by itself because of the rules that made it harder for a chaos susceptible person to stay in Kislev, thereby leaving those who are less chaos susceptible thereby increasing the % of less chaos susceptible people.

In Kislev peasants do not ”own” the land. They are allowed to build houses and work the fields as if it was their own but they can't sell or borrow against the land. How much land each peasant is given is determined by the quality of land and how much a 10 strong household could work if they worked full time, so the possibility of making profits is quite high. Kislev has no shortage of workable land, any person can go to the ”land bureau” and be given a ”plot”. Usually when children come of age they can claim a piece of land but there might not be any available land near where they live so they might have to move a considerable distance. When the ”owners” of a piece of land dies it is given to the children if they still live there usually the eldest who is still living there, if none of the children still live there or want to return or have children of their own which can take over, then the land reverts back to the ”land bureau” and is given to some other peasant who requests land. The piece of land is not divided among the children, a household much take over the whole thing.

Larger ”plots” of land are available the more to the north, not only because the land is of lesser quality but also to compensate for living closer to chaos.

In Kislev anyone can join ”the army” both male and female and sign up for X amount of years at a time, there is always a need for soldiers. Male and Females fight almost always in separate battalions, priests, and mages being the exception.

Kislev is constantly at war, every few years a band of somewhat considerable size will launch an attack on the land of Kislev. Every few decades a pretty serious sized army will attack, and every few hundred years there are these big incursions of chaos.

Because Kislev has good and stable people, they can handle these wars and the population despite the constant warfare was actually growing but marginally. If Kislev could however bee free from war even for just a single generation it could become the strongest nation in the old world.

With the establishment of the farming god and the potato, the population of Kislev has actually increased to a bit more than marginal.

Kislev has far better ”medical” care than the Empire and hygiene is far higher because a long tradition of magic, few evil people, respect for the healing sciences and religion, few children die at an early age many survive, which means large families of 8 being the normal but 17 or more not unheard of.

Even though Kislev invented Vodka the soldiers and the people drink far less than the people of the empire, and it is considered a dishonor to be drunk before a battle. If one is not in control of senses one is making it easier for chaos to win and ones friends, family and countrymen of dying. The people of Kislev drink and celebrate when they are safe and secure, when they do not have to do battle for at least a couple of days. This could be one

Kislev does not attack the Empire but sometimes has to protect itself from corrupt nobles of the Empire who launch attacks against Kislev’s southern border. Kislev has never lost any of its land for long to an Empire invader and has always reclaimed lost land, eventually.

Bretonnia

The Bretonnians would be like they were in the 5th edition with true noble ideals and pure leaders, not the corrupt oppression that is now. The lady of the lake would be a pure human deity and not the elven god Lilieath using the humans as a meat shield for the wood elves. Bretonnia would have collages of magic and both male and female wizards.

The Empire

The Empire could be almost as corrupt at it is now because Kislev protects it from the North, Bretonnia and Mareinburg from the West and mountains with Dwarfs to the South and East, thereby allowing the Empire the luxury of corruption and incompetence.

When a corrupt noble assumes power they usually kick out priests of Verena.

Estalia

Estalia is somewhat united land in a lose confederacy under a Myrmidian theocracy and it is a stable and ”fair” rule, the priests are not corrupt or evil. Estalia still has different somewhat independent provinces with different laws and traditions but they very rarely war against each other and will respond to a call from the Myrmidian leadership.

The Estalian “unification” happened anywhere from 50-10 years ago, I am not certain.

The Estalians now, somewhat, united have declared “a crusade” against the skaven to reclaim the lost city of Kazavar also know as Tylos now know as Skavenblight and its surrounding land. Since they found out what happened possibly by cross references of old books and divine guidance.

The Eastalian navy is mostly defensive and has some merchant vessels which trade in the old world and as far as Araby a few ships a year travel there. Sometimes, very rarely, a ship will make a trip to the far east but it happens rarely since the trips is very dangerous and the far is east is far away. Maybe once every 10 or 15 years a captain decides and succeeds in traveling there and coming back.

After the “unification” of Estalia and the declaration of the crusade against the Skaven to get back Karzavar all expeditions into other lands have been called back, and no more ships travel to Lustria. Ships have instead increased trade with the old world and now a few travel to Araby every 6 months or so, an average of about 1 every 2 or 3 months.

The Estalians had before unification some hedge wizards and some type of elamentalists and healing schools in some of the different “states”. But since the unification they have begun establishing collages of magic with some help from Kislev and maybe something from Marienburg, the Empire, and maybe even some elves giving some minor help.

Because Kislev wizards and guidance played a somewhat significant role in helping establishing organized magic, there could possibly a sub section of the Jade collage of ice magic with a few Esalian ice mages.

Since Marienburg also helped somewhat and because Estalia is somewhat of a seafaring nation another sub section of the jade collage is devoted to sea magic.

Estalia has to now and again fight off dark elven invasion/ slave raids. The dark elfs come now and again to loot, pillage and raid the Estalian coasts, mostly for slaves.

After Estalia became somewhat united it has also tried to establish a better rapport with Tilean states and some in Estalia are even considering a unification with its neighbor but such and act would possibly require the reclaiming of Kazavar.

Tilea

Inspired of the unification of Estalia at least 2 Tilean states have merged.

The farming god has become quiet popular in many of the fertile lands have stopped declaring war as often on each other and have begun building up their own states instead. Myrmidia is still however the primary deity of the nobility and upper classes.

The Border Prince, Human nation

The Creation of a very new ”country”, 20- years old or so maybe even much younger, somewhere in the Border Prince region starting out with maybe nothing more than a town. A light magic mage who was feed up with the corruption and bs in the Empire, tired of witch hunters burning the innocent and bowing to the guilty, tired of ”nobles” oppressing the weak and the nobles constant infighting, establishes this ”land” where he is king but where there are no nobles and all citizens can vote for a representative, so a form of constitutional democracy.

In this new land, all the human deities, of the old world, who are either good or neutral are given one guaranteed seat, if of course they have a priest and/or worshipers. Depending of the age of the country the ”house” might not be fully representative of a normal human population because simply there aren’t enough people living there. Most people usually vote for someone from the clergy so the ”house” is almost completely filled with representatives from different religions. If the country had been old like maybe 100 or 200 years then the farming god would have the largest representation and Morr the god of death only having his one guaranteed seat, because not many would vote for the god of death. But since it is a new country the seat distribution might be different. And of course in the warhammer world where there are actual gods, these priests are stable people who are not easily corrupted.

The new country which is/was not much more than an empty piece of land that grew/ will grow into a small town/ hamlet was established by; the light mage, a priest and a few acolytes of Verena, a few priests, 2-3, and a bit more acolytes of Shallya, a priest and a handful of acolytes of Myrmidia, and a single priest of Morr, in addition to that maybe some acolytes of the farming god were also there from the beginning or joined a bit after 1-2 years. At about 1-2 years after the establishment a priest of the merchant god arrived.

This new country in the Border Prince also has magic with the help of Verna and possibly also Shallya, that can detect the alignment of a person, and in addition to that has 3 rules. No individual naturally evil may become a citizen of the land, no individually naturally evil may permanently settle in the land, no individually naturally evil may be born into the land. Which means that almost everyone is either good or neutral.

In this new country priests and acolytes of Verena operate a ”police force”.

In this new country with the help of Verena the establishment of collages of magic has begun.

In this new country there will be and/or is far fewer death magic and grey magic wizards than in the Empire in proportion to its population. There will be and/or is however more light magic wizards in proportion to its population than in the Empire.

The Border Prince, a Dwarven hold

Somewhere in the border prince a dwarf hold with expatriate dwarfs is established or a dwarven hold lets in many expatriate dwarfs and in this hold dwarven mages are let in, with some back story how a dwarven mage together with some human mages helped in the defense of the hold against attackers who surely, without the magic, would have killed many of the dwarfs but because of the magic the dwarfs lost very few lives and possibly not a single one.

This hold also allows female dwarfs to assume any profession just as expatriate dwarfs do and this hold starts with the dwarf program of 1 child per year per woman, more about that later under races.
This hold is also somewhere relatively close located to the new human “town” maybe at most 20 miles, not certain about the distance, but “close”. Less than a days walk.

This Dwarven hold could be Karak Grom as described in Nathan Longs novel the battle of skull pass with some modifications to the story.

A Vampire Nation

I am not certain about this one if it fits into the warhammer world, it is something I have been thinking about in general fantasy terms.

A vampire nation that is ruled by vampires but treats their people like a farmer treats their cattle. Not like how Sylvania is described now where the people are half starved, mentally slowed and the very definition of idiocy. But instead where the people are well feed and there is almost no crime or corruption. The vampires do not oppress or harass the people but instead provide real security, every criminal is sentenced to being drained, perhaps not completely but significantly for several days, or perhaps completely, not sure if there are degrees depending on crime or if all crimes are sentenced with death, and that is how the vampires keep themselves fed. If you do not break the laws which are perfectly normal laws not oppressive corruption or anything like that you can live a perfectly normal life.

In addition to that I would add “a hierarchy of blood” where dragon blood is the most potent for the vampires, then elven and dwarven, then hippogriff and unicorn blood, then humans and halfling blood, then lizardmen and pegasi blood, then ogre and orc blood, then goblin and skaven blood, then animal blood with its own hierarchy. Not exactly sure about the order could require some tweaking.

The vampires themselves prefer to drink higher quality blood since proportionally it gives the most power for the least amount, but the vampires will when needed drink animal blood as well, larger quantities are of course required and one can not get the same type of power but it is enough to be “alive” and operate at an “ok” capacity.

The vampires of the nation also drain people just before the people die of high age or when people are about to die from sickness or injury.

All dead bodies, from any type of death are then take by the vampires and used as “raw materials” for the vampires creations.

The would be some type of “rules” for who gets which body, who gets to drink and a market where blood rights, bodies and body parts were sold.

All religions are forbidden in the land since “holy” objects damage the undead.

Maybe making silver illegal to use in coinage and creation of any items. And maybe not, am uncertain about this one.

This vampire nation could be anywhere possibly Sylvania and possibly not.

This nation could possibly be close to the dark elves, possibly on the same continent as the dark elves somewhere on the border with chaos, making an interesting story how some human slaves who escaped did so by either being turned by a vampire or making some deal with an evil “spirit / higher power that is non chaos” And this “deity” is “worshiped” by the vampires who offer sacrifices to it.

Or somewhere in the world that has been attacked by the dark elves or somewhere along the sea raiding routes of dark elves.

In this vampire nation dark elves are held prisoner sometimes intact, sometimes with their eye plucked out, tongues, feet and hands cut off, fed and kept alive to be drained by the vampires possibly for eternity unless the dark elf somehow escapes or dies.

The vampire nation is ruled by a Vampire male who has some pretty ok skills in magic and fighting but is a bit unstable, since only an unstable vampire could create such a nation with these laws. Or it could be ruled by the vampire female Neferata who studied humans for several millennia, and this nation and its laws is the conclusion of those studies.

The vampires as I wrote do not hurt or oppress the human “subjects” and instead by following the “vampire laws” are quite well fed and have plenty of “raw materials” to “create” with. Since this is the Warhammer world the vampires always have a supply of orc and skaven blood, because there is always an orc or skaven attack somewhere or the vampires can just go down in the earth and find skaven tunnels and get all the blood and “raw materials” that they need. Plus of course the dark elves that they have captured, and continue to capture when the opportunity presents itself.

The vampire Nation could be Lahmia.

The vampire nation does not actively attack dwarfs or high elves, the vampires will of course defend them selves if attacked but do not actively seek out and attack dwarfs and high elves. If for some reason a dwarf or high elf is involved in some sort of fight, then the vampire/s take them back to vampire/s “home” and drain their blood of course but they do not use the bodies for “constructs” they destroy the bodies so that no evidence of them ever being there is removed.

The vampire nation does not attack other human nations unless someone there is threatening an attack on the vampire nation or is planing a raid or some form of attack.

The vampires only actively attack dark elves, greenskins, skaven, forces of chaos and other type of “aggressive” forces. However the vampires will avoid attacking the forces of “order” if possible.

Because of how the system works, the vampire nation could possibly be the strongest vampire nation for several thousand years, even rivaling Lahmia at its height of power, and if things continue as they have, then this vampire nation could possibly become the most powerful vampire nation ever, and possibly the strongest “human” nation ever.

Many vampires do not approve of how things are run, even though the results are far greater than anything any other vampire could achieve under any other type of system, however as long as the “leader” is in charge the vampires keep their opinions to them selves and follow the laws.

Albion

Albion would have two Islands on big and one small, the isle of wights where few or no people live.

The different factions of Albion have united under one ruler possibly recently, possibly when Gotrek and Felix visited, because they came to the realization that if they constant attack and steal from each other they will forever be poor and weak but if they work together and build they can reclaim their lost land and keep the dark elves at bay.

Also with the unification came the establishment of the farming god who helps with the weather and constant rain despite the mists, without affecting the protective abilities of the stones. So the mists form a barrier around the Islands but there would be sun in the middle. It would still rain more often than it does in the Empire, but not as often as it does now, and it would be possibly to plant and cultivate crops.

The truthsayers have now gathered together and constructed a “college/s” because they are now more organized than before they have begun purifying the stones.

The farming gods magic plus the now gathering of truthsayers into a “college” has begun to purify the land.

Once the people are numerous enough and developed enough they can remove the mists that surround Albion and take their land back from the rain.

After Gotrek, Felix and Teclis visited the Island, Teclis returned with a group of mages who helped close down and purify the passage ways of the old ones, and purify and stabilize the Oghma stones.

The elves also helped in the establishment of the “collage/s” of magic.

The lizardmen at some point arrived and took each and every magical item and anything that wasn’t part of a stone building, so all items, tablets, treasure, everything, except the temple/s it / them selves were taken. And then the Lizardmen left.

Possibly the removing of the Oghma stones from Albion altogether that they never were placed there never existed and the mists came from some other source and the Giants might never have been there or were placed to protect the Temple/s of the old ones. Possibly only having one temple of the old ones and it is now almost completely destroyed / gone. Possibly having the Turthsayers protecting the passageways of the old ones and the one temple now with the destruction of both they instead now have a new purpose.


Technology


No gunpowder or steam power, since in my mind it can't be fantasy if there is gunpowder, again nothing is written in stone.

Races

Humans

All Humans in the old world speak ”common” with some mild variations, very rare just some words here or there and possibly pronunciation.

Dwarfs

Dwarfs have flamethrowers ”cannons” which can fire ”on and off” and not needed to be firing constantly, powered by runes and have a ”ammo load” of about 30 seconds up to 5 minutes depending on quality of rune before a few days of recharging is required. The runes recharge themselves over time. Range is from an average of 50 yards up to 200 or so for high quality runes. (During ww2 the average range was 20-40 yards and 10-20 seconds was about what a flamethrower soldier had in his tube and he could inflict a lot of damage with that.)

Not certain about this one; Dwarfs are more carbon dioxide resistant than any other race, so they can sometimes burn away some of the oxygen thereby chocking an opposing force, if properly done. They have special runes that burn away oxygen. And they have runes that create oxygen. Defensive passages usually have ”low ventilation” And only the ”main road” has a good stable amount of oxygen. I don't know if this tactic is new or has been used for many years.

Not certain about this; Dwarfs also have runes that can drain all magic of any type except other runes, of magic. So a powerful rune could drain away even a divine magic items or a very corrupt magic item. Different runes for different types of magic. There are runes that drain away all types of magic, and there are specialists rune that drain specific types of magic. These type of runes prevent undead from simply overrunning dwarf holds. But of course the runes can only drain so much magic per minute there are limitations of course. But they don’t drain ”the winds of magic” that naturally flow over the world.

Dwarfs have runes that strengthen rocks and earth, thereby making it almost impossible to dig under Dwarf holds or attack them by breaking through their walls. Preventing the ever nagging theory of why goblins and skaven simply don't just dig a big hole under dwarf holds and simply have it fall.

Dwarfs have runes that can ”heal” rocks, thereby rearing cracks and fissures

Dwarfs have special boxes where on puts magical items and the runes then drain away the magic from the items. The runes can be removed relatively ”easy” for an average rune smith. Then other boxes with other runes that convert that magic to ”neutral rune magic” and finally other runes that convert this neutral rune magic to specific rune magic needed for a rune. So a rune is made with both or either capturing the winds of magic into a rune and or transferring magic into it from one of these collector runes.

Dwarfs rune masters do not have the ”rule of pride” this might be good in a tabletop game but not in the whole back story of warhammer. Of course there are copies of rune and rune combinations on many runic weapons, since obviously there are only so many different type of runes.

Dwarfs have very few ”thieves” even expatriate dwarfs are very very rarely if ever thieves.

Slayers: As I see it Slayers in warhammer usually don't have armor because of 2 reasons, 1 was that in the tabletop game it would have made for a very expensive and powerful unit for the dwarfs to have an unbreakable, undamagable unit. Secondly they most likely weren't given armor because of how it looks; shirtless dwarfs shouting and making faces is an esthetically different thing from fully armored dwarfs. So in my version slayers could of course have armor however, when a dwarf becomes a slayer he doesn’t want to burden the family more by walking of with an heirloom and expensive piece of craftdwarfship, so he takes only what he needs, a slayer can of course buy an armor or if his whole clan was slain use the family armor, in addition to that the wear and tear of a slayers armor would be greater than a normal dwarfs because the slayer constantly seeks out battle.

I want at some time in recent history around 20 or 30 years ago have the Dwarfs re-evaluate their birth system. Currently a female dwarf usually has 4 children, there are 3 males born for each female, a net zero birth rate. A female is pregnant for 9 months just like a human. and has1-3 husbands. However I want there to be some big back story where the dwarfs were forced to answer and do a proper calculation on why they didn't simply have one child per year and how many Dwarfs would be born if they had one child per year per married female and how many lost holds that could be reclaimed with such an increase in numbers. Upon seeing the numbers after the proper calculation made by Dwarfs, at least one hold began having more children.

Dwarfs, who are not chaos dwarfs, and mages are very rare as described in the Warhammer fantasy roleplay supplement Dwarfs Stone and Steel. To what is written their I want to add some things. Dwarfs who do study magic are expatriates, usually learn elamentalist magic, Fire, Earth, as described in the book, and maybe Wind and Lightning. Dwarfs know far fewer spells, their magic is less powerful, but they make far fewer mistakes and are very corruption resistant. Because they make less mistakes and usually live longer than humans the net effect can still be some pretty ok magic. Dwarfs also have higher endurance than human wizards and can cast longer and require less time to recover after casting many spells, in comparison with human wizards.

Dwarfs do not pass on grudges made against human on their descendants. Dwarfs do not judge humans by dwarven stndards. A Dwarf is a Dwarf and a Human is a Human. Possibly some back story to this a grudge being made againsta a human and his descendant/s making a good case infron of the high king that one can not judge human by dwarven standards.

Dwarfs have good teeth that do not suffer often from diseases.

Elves

The Elves of Ulthan hearing about the dwarven birth program also started having more children, not as many as 1 per year, but more than they currently do, and greater than their death rate. The Dark Elves did not because of how their society is constructed.

Elves have good teeth that do not suffer often from diseases.

Halflings

Halflings are more kind than the current warhammer version and less obnoxious,c loser to how they are described in the Fantasy Roleplay rulebook excluding roleplaying hint section, so no slang or invention of new words and less rude gestures. They do fight and have skilled archers and possibly crossbow units, cross bows bought from humans and maybe dwarfs.

Halflings are much healthier than human and rarely get sick. Halfling teeth are also much better than human teeth and rarely if ever suffer any problems.

Vampires

Vampires rarely make mistakes, and have strong memories.

Vampires learn “slower” in everything both magic and fighting, but because they make few mistakes have strong memories then once they learnt it they know it. Factor in that they live for a long time and you have a powerful creature indeed.

Greenskins

Orcs don't have to eat nearly as often as humans, but the bigger an orc is the more often he has to eat. An orc that is 1,5 meters tall would need to eat 2 pounds per month to survive of normal ”food”, however an orc can if needed eat trees and grass to survive but he needs far greater quantities. Greenskin feel hunger yes but they can survive longer on less food. An orc who is 2 meters tall needs to eat about 10 pounds of food every 2 to 3 days to survive, not certain about the numbers lots of fine tuning needed, but basically orcs can live on less food, that is how there are so many of them. Same goes for goblins they can eat less than humans and survive longer but proportionally they need to eat more than orcs if their weight were the same.

The more an orc eats and fights the bigger he grows, the bigger he grows the more he needs to eat.

I don't know exactly how I would handle orc birth, if there are females or if orcs are created by ”spore” or something else.

Skaven

Skaven also need less food to survive and function than a human if they weighed the same.

Skaven do not have many of their machines but they do have some type of warpstone lightning cannons, that are very unreliable.

Lizardmen

At some time in recent history, maybe 20 years ago, a human or elven wizard of great healing ability by some reason arrives in Lustria and because of some big back story he is able to heal the mummified body of Lord Kroak of Itza a little bit, healing not reanimate, and because of the healing plus the magic of the Lizardmen Lord the body will now over the next few thousand of years heal itself completely. Already with this small amount of “life” Lord Kroak Itza is able to take a more active role in the lizardmen society.

At some time in recent history the Slann, possibly Lord Kroak, discover how to spawn other Slann, or the spawning pools are activated by themselves some old directive by the old ones kicking in, however these Slann vary in power most will be weaker of strength than those of the fifth spawning but a few will be stronger one possibly as strong as the Slann of the second spawning. They spawn at a rate of possibly one every few years or maybe slower.

At some time in recent history no more than 150 years ago maybe even just 20 years ago, the Slann got knowledge of a theory that perhaps the Old Ones did not have a final plan as a sculpture how the different races and the world would evolve but instead as a gardener would guide and cultivate them. Also the idea of that possibility the Old Ones are gone and now we who are left must try and make the best of the situation. To fight chaos and its servants is of course one the Lizardmens goal, and they now understand that other races, or at least individual of other races also fight chaos.

History

The ancient city of Kazavar, known also as Tylos, Til, Tilea, never used slaves or had slaves.

The Old Ones were here between 15000 years before Sigmar until about 5600 years before Sigmar, not like in the newest edition only 200 years. Maybe not 10,000 years but much more than 200.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/09/01 23:05:33


 
   
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Alot of good stuff there.

Isn't a farming God as the main deity is far too practical in a Warhammer setting, it just makes too much sense.

I think with regards to Vampires and the quality of blood, I reckon as long as the animal is a mammal then there should be no difference in the 'nutritional' value of the blood.
There should only be a difference to the dignity and taste of the victim. Orc blood for example is probably disgusting, and second only to Troll blood for winning the worst blood ever prize. Rat blood by comparison is probably mildly tasty, but any Vampire actually drinking the stuff would be looked at like they were simply classless (strigoi?).
   
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 StygianBeach wrote:
Alot of good stuff there.

Isn't a farming God as the main deity is far too practical in a Warhammer setting, it just makes too much sense.

I think with regards to Vampires and the quality of blood, I reckon as long as the animal is a mammal then there should be no difference in the 'nutritional' value of the blood.
There should only be a difference to the dignity and taste of the victim. Orc blood for example is probably disgusting, and second only to Troll blood for winning the worst blood ever prize. Rat blood by comparison is probably mildly tasty, but any Vampire actually drinking the stuff would be looked at like they were simply classless (strigoi?).


Hey hey man thanks for your reply

Yes I have been thinking a lot about Warhammer and since there are at least 2 farming gods "Albaulea -- Goddess of Farming" in Stirland and Phineas -- Halfling God of Farming in Mootland, then it is not a big stretch in making a farming god know to all. And as a peasant you would of course worship a farming god because it would increase your crop yield and therefore your quality of life. And since maybe 85-95% of everyone in the Empire, and all? of the other old world nations, are peasants then of course the farming god would be the number one god, at least that is my reasoning.

The nobility and upper classes In the Empire would worship Sigmar so you would still have priests of Sigmar and all of that, but the peasant class would worship the farming god. The nobility and upper classes in each of the other old world human nations would also worship their respective deity, but the human peasant class everywhere would worship the farming god.


About the hierarchy of blood; I was more thinking about auras and magic and how there is magical power in blood. If one reads the Nagash books then "SPOILER" he kills people and uses their blood to fuel his spells. END SPOILER.

Also in on or several of the official vampire fantasy battle books there is a story about a vampire red? knight who drinks the blood of a dragon and never needs to drink again.

Also if one only looks at it from a nutritional value then races that live longer and do not get sick as often, elves/dwarfs, would have "better" blood even if one excludes magic and "auras". At least that is my thinking.

Thanks for your comment and feel free to write many more

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/01 23:21:42


 
   
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There is not this idea.

How often did teeth come up in the original material?

(genuinely curious)
   
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...I'm sorry, is this a proposal to make a D&D setting book out of WHFB?

I know there's a fine line between 'grimdarkness' and 'realism', but making broad sweeping generalizations about the good/neutral/evil alignments of the populace, adding a clearly-defined and lore-inconsistent interpretation of 'magic', deleting/merging parts of the pantheon (hello, 4e Forgotten Realms!), making everybody friends (...as a Lizardmen player I dispute that a human would get within a mile of Lord Kroak without being reduced to a smear of ash), making up a 'Common' language, babbling on about birth rates, and casually deleting the in-joke that is the currency system are really rubbing me the wrong way on this one (and aren't likely to make most WHFB players any happier).

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 toasteroven wrote:
How often did teeth come up in the original material?

(genuinely curious)


During the last few weeks/months, I have been reading a lot of warhammer novels.

In the Gotrek and Felix series, William King, who writes magnificently, wrote that in the first book, Trollslayer, that Gotrek had one missing tooth, then in Skavenslayer he had a few more missing teeth then constantly less in each following book. It was a very nice idea very nice dedication that he took his time to keep such a long connected story line on such a small detail.

BUT!

When I began to think about it, it made less sense.

First of all Gotreks axe which heals his body should also of course offer some healing to his mouth.

Secondly because dwarfs overall are much healthier than humans then the dwarfs would also have better teeth.

Thirdly why would the old ones create a race that can live for 100s if not 1000s of years, who rarely get sick, but whose teeth fall out after a mere century or two.

Thanks for your comment by the way, keep them coming




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
...I'm sorry, is this a proposal to make a D&D setting book out of WHFB?

I know there's a fine line between 'grimdarkness' and 'realism', but making broad sweeping generalizations about the good/neutral/evil alignments of the populace, adding a clearly-defined and lore-inconsistent interpretation of 'magic', deleting/merging parts of the pantheon (hello, 4e Forgotten Realms!), making everybody friends (...as a Lizardmen player I dispute that a human would get within a mile of Lord Kroak without being reduced to a smear of ash), making up a 'Common' language, babbling on about birth rates, and casually deleting the in-joke that is the currency system are really rubbing me the wrong way on this one (and aren't likely to make most WHFB players any happier).



Thanks for your comment

Now to the points you bring up

Each sentence is stand alone and can be seen as its own little modification to the warhammer fantasy universe

The alignment system is a good way to describe who are person is. At least for me.

Everyone are not friends, just that one time because of some back story a human or elven healer was able to heal Lord Korak Itza, thereby bringing him back a bit. I want him back so I thought up of a possible back story to how he would come back. Then about the lizardmen again it is only possibilities that maybe they began focusing on fighting chaos and understood more actively that others also fight chaos. That however does not make anyone friends.

About the languge, In the Gotrek and Felix series when they Travle to Albion the people of Ablion speak the same language as Felix does, even though they have been located on an islands for 1000s of years separated from the rest of humanity for almost the whole time. Also since I want all the humans in the old world to know of the same gods there can be some plausibility why all humans in the old world speak the same language.

The birth rates in warhammer is something that I have been thinking about. I want to install a little bit of hope and light, and to do that the races can not be dying, I want to give hope for the possibility of growth and prosperity. When it comes to human nations I want to show that different systems give different birth rates, and different countries have different death rates because of how they function and where they are located.

About the coins, each nation would have their own coins like they do now, at different values as described in the warhammer fantasy roleplay books and each would be of different quality.

And yes I understand that my ideas will ruffle some feathers among some of the warhammer fans, these are just ideas and thoughts that I have, it is not like I own warhammer, not yet anyway

Now that you have written about the things you do not like, are there any suggestions that you do like?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/09/02 02:01:19


 
   
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GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:


Thanks for your comment

Now to the points you bring up

Each sentence is stand alone and can be seen as its own little modification to the warhammer fantasy universe

The alignment system is a good way to describe who are person is. At least for me.


Real people, as in people who aren't cardboard cutouts in a poorly-written D&D game, are all True Neutral all the time. The alignment system is a shortcut to not making an effort to give anyone any depth.


Everyone are not friends, just that one time because of some back story a human or elven healer was able to heal Lord Korak Itza, thereby bringing him back a bit. I want him back so I thought up of a possible back story to how he would come back. Then about the lizardmen again it is only possibilities that maybe they began focusing on fighting chaos and understood more actively that others also fight chaos. That however does not make anyone friends.


And a human or elven healer somehow managed to 1) figure out who Lord Kroak is, 2) decide to risk his life to go try and attempt the impossible, 3) find Lord Kroak in the middle of the most hostile environment on the planet full of unfriendly lizard-people who shoot first and ask questions later, 4) not get obliterated by Lord Kroak (who isn't keen to be experimented on by a human), and 5) pull off something the Slann (supposedly among the most powerful mages on the planet) haven't been able to do in how many millennia?

Why, exactly, is Lord Kroak 'coming back' sufficiently interesting to tie the narrative in knots to achieve?


About the languge, In the Gotrek and Felix series when they Travle to Albion the people of Ablion speak the same language as Felix does, even though they have been located on an islands for 1000s of years separated from the rest of humanity for almost the whole time. Also since I want all the humans in the old world to know of the same gods there can be some plausibility why all humans in the old world speak the same language.


I can't speak to Gotrek and Felix, but why, exactly, is a common religion for all humans an interesting or useful thing to achieve? For that matter common religions in real life have nothing to do with common language, how many languages do you suppose Christians across the real world speak? (Or even just Catholics?)


The birth rates in warhammer is something that I have been thinking about. I want to install a little bit of hope and light, and to do that the races can not be dying, I want to give hope for the possibility of growth and prosperity. When it comes to human nations I want to show that different systems give different birth rates, and different countries have different death rates because of how they function and where they are located.


The short answer is to stop talking about how people are 'dying races'. The way you've written it out it sounds like there's a hive mind in charge, or an RTS-style pragmatic autocrat with total control over his population's hearts and souls. And the setting is supposed to be very medieval in tone, trying to give census figures in the first place trips that up without adding much at all.


About the coins, each nation would have their own coins like they do now, at different values as described in the warhammer fantasy roleplay books and each would be of different quality.


The 12p -> 1s 20s -> 1g thing is an in-joke based on pre-decimalization British currency. What does changing it out to a decimal currency actually accomplish?

Now that you have written about the things you do not like, are there any suggestions that you do like?


As with almost everything related to Warhammer by any author your goals are fine, your execution is bizzare and improbable. I like the idea of trying to take the setting and make it less depressing, I even get the approach you're trying to take, but everything here feels like it's cutting too deep into what makes Warhammer what it is and pushing it in the direction of Warcraft-esque bland inoffensiveness. You've taken the easy answer on things to the point that this reads like a children's book written by an adult who didn't want preteens to ask difficult questions and/or didn't want to strain their wee brains, and it comes across as patronizing.

I'd suggest going back and taking a good, hard look at the source material. Sixteenth-century European history, Tolkein, Arthurian mythology, Lovecraft, all the bits GW stuffed into a box and shook up to make Warhammer in the first place. Ask yourself why certain things are the way they are in Warhammer before you start tearing them up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 02:46:40


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 AnomanderRake wrote:



1 Real people, as in people who aren't cardboard cutouts in a poorly-written D&D game, are all True Neutral all the time. The alignment system is a shortcut to not making an effort to give anyone any depth.

2 And a human or elven healer somehow managed to 1) figure out who Lord Kroak is, 2) decide to risk his life to go try and attempt the impossible, 3) find Lord Kroak in the middle of the most hostile environment on the planet full of unfriendly lizard-people who shoot first and ask questions later, 4) not get obliterated by Lord Kroak (who isn't keen to be experimented on by a human), and 5) pull off something the Slann (supposedly among the most powerful mages on the planet) haven't been able to do in how many millennia?

3 Why, exactly, is Lord Kroak 'coming back' sufficiently interesting to tie the narrative in knots to achieve?


4 I can't speak to Gotrek and Felix, but why, exactly, is a common religion for all humans an interesting or useful thing to achieve? For that matter common religions in real life have nothing to do with common language, how many languages do you suppose Christians across the real world speak? (Or even just Catholics?)


5 The short answer is to stop talking about how people are 'dying races'. The way you've written it out it sounds like there's a hive mind in charge, or an RTS-style pragmatic autocrat with total control over his population's hearts and souls. And the setting is supposed to be very medieval in tone, trying to give census figures in the first place trips that up without adding much at all.


6 The 12p -> 1s 20s -> 1g thing is an in-joke based on pre-decimalization British currency. What does changing it out to a decimal currency actually accomplish?

As with almost everything related to Warhammer by any author your goals are fine, your execution is bizzare and improbable. I like the idea of trying to take the setting and make it less depressing, I even get the approach you're trying to take, but everything here feels like it's cutting too deep into what makes Warhammer what it is and pushing it in the direction of Warcraft-esque bland inoffensiveness. You've taken the easy answer on things to the point that this reads like a children's book written by an adult who didn't want preteens to ask difficult questions and/or didn't want to strain their wee brains, and it comes across as patronizing.

I'd suggest going back and taking a good, hard look at the source material. Sixteenth-century European history, Tolkein, Arthurian mythology, Lovecraft, all the bits GW stuffed into a box and shook up to make Warhammer in the first place. Ask yourself why certain things are the way they are in Warhammer before you start tearing them up.


Hello hello, first let me say thank you for replying and thank you for spending your time writing responses.

Overall it seems that our two brains are very different somehow you look at it and see one thing, I look at it and see something else

And now to your specific points

1 In the real world, I am 100% certain that some people are born evil, some are born good and some are born neutral of this i am 100% certain it is at the very core how I see people, just as water is wet i am sure of this completely and absolutely. So from my perspective it would be only logical to someway somehow have such a classification in the warhammer world.

2 Here you make several assumptions, that the healer deliberately went to the lizardmen, whilst is see it as something very vague, the healer someway somehow by some reasons ended up there and because of some reasons healed lord Kroak. The Slann were unable or unwilling to create the vortex that drained magic from the world. The elves created the Vortex and the humans in Albion also helped there with the Oghma stones. So it could be that the healer elven or human simply did something the Slann didn't want to do or hadn't thought of, but once it was done, they were able to continue with it, just as once the Vortex was created the Slann over many centuries helped stabilize the magic and fine tune the vortex as described in the warhammer lore

3 I want to install a splash more of hope in the world, and having Lord Korak slowly over the next thousands of years and the new spawning of slann, would be just that, a possibility of a future for the lizardmen

4 In the warhammer world most of the old world gods are know in each of the old world nations, Myrmidia is know to all, Verena, Morr, Taal, Shallya, though under a different name in Kislev. So to clarify the state of the gods, I do not want there to be a different variation int he names, and have one good for each type for example one merchant good even though there are 5 now. The peasants would worship the farming god, since the peasant class is the largest by far the farming god would have most worshipers, that does not mean however that there is a shared religion, just that the farming god has the most worshipers, here you make an assumption that the religion is organized and political, I like keeping the details vague.

5, in almost every warhammer novel and in many of the rulebooks it says that the dwarfs and elves are a dying race. I want there to be a possibility of a bright future for both those races. So to that end, I want their population to increase somehow someway. When it comes to the humans, currently people are born and people die. I want to show that in the Empire because of its corruption and incompetence more children die young than in Kislev, but in Kislev more adults die because of the constant war against chaos. I also want to give, for those whoa re interested a number to the average amount of children born and people who die. No one is in charge, I just want to show that different systems have different results, just as one can view the population growth of for example Australia and then view the Population growth of for example Norway and see that the different systems produce different results, you have several countries and they have different population growths. And since I want there to be hope I want there to be a positive population growth despite all the problems.

6 Since there is a merchant god, there would somehow someway be a movement unconscious or deliberate for a good monetary system. And for me it is far more optimal to have it based on the 100 system than the current 12/20/1, after playing so many different fantasy games I find the 100 system the best, it is jsut a persona preference, and again nothing is set in stone, these are just my suggestions my thoughts and ideas.

It seems my thoughts and ideas are not for you

Each of my sentences are to be viewed as a completely independent modification as an independent check list of things I would like to change and how I would change them, each is to be viewed independently, where one person might like one change but not perhaps several changes combined.

And these are just my thoughts of how I would like to change warhammer if I owned it and to be viewed as my opinion. You might want to change completely different things or nothing at all, which is totally fine, but these are the things that I would change.

Again thank you for your reply and your time

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/02 14:03:19


 
   
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...All right, then. If you'd like to operate from the assumption that 'some people are born evil', entire species operate on a hive mind, and the base in which a currency system is devised is worthy of quality judgements I wish you well of it. I wouldn't expect to get much positive feedback, but I'm going away now.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
...All right, then. If you'd like to operate from the assumption that 'some people are born evil', entire species operate on a hive mind, and the base in which a currency system is devised is worthy of quality judgements I wish you well of it. I wouldn't expect to get much positive feedback, but I'm going away now.


There is no hive mind, you seem to draw the strangest conclusions from my text

And yes some people are born evil, of that I am certain.

The whole text could possibly be viewed as "my warhammer" how I would make warhammer if I were in charge

And again no hive mind, some very strange conclusions you got there

Cheers
   
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Monticello, IN

If I had the finances and chance to buy Warhammer, I'd simply go back to 6th and tweak the books that were problems. Done. Make the models affordable, and promote and advertise the hell out of it. Profit.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/24 11:05:11


Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) 
   
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 Just Tony wrote:
If I had the finances and chance to buy Warhammer, I'd simply go back to 6th and tweak the books that were problems. Done. Make the models affordable, and promote and advertise the hell out of it. Profit.


I understand where you are coming from, for me going back to the 5th edition lore, especially for the Brets when they had the Arthurian ideals real chivalry and nobility is one of the most important things. But from a gameplay mechanics view, the 6th edition rules are good. About prices yes the GW model of constantly raising prices so that fewer and fewer new people were drawn in and the established base bought less often ending GW blowing up the whole world because not enough people were buying the old world, was a bad business plan.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bottle wrote:
I agree with most of what Anomander Rake says (he is my Malazan name-brother after all ;-) )

Most of your changes are just shallow vanity changes - stuff that you want to change to your personal tastes and not for any other reason, and to be honest it doesn't really make compelling discussion in my eyes. I would think most WHFB fans would hate these changes more than AoS.


I see your point, however about the base I think many would like it

But most importantly I think I would like it

Thanks for your comment

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 22:21:52


 
   
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I get that this is really for you, but I'd like to echo what the others are saying...it looks like a fun D&D setting, but I'm not seeing a lot of Warhammer. Just to start...the Old World is dark and perilous and full of superstitious peasants...and nobility, come to think of it. The gods aren't really big on intervening, if they're there...except for the ones the good guys don't want to intervene - and, honestly, I'm not sure why you completely changed the pantheon, it seems way more generic this way. Magic is dark and dangerous and strange because it ultimately comes from Chaos; it shouldn't be easy to master and most practitioners should suffer long-term effects. The technological stuff is there because it's meant to be styled after 16th-century Germany. Slayers don't wear armor because they want to die; it's harder for a troll to kill you if you're in full gromril, after all, and it would be un-dwarfish to just let it bite your head off, so they compromise . Halflings aren't hobbits, they're rude and promiscuous and there's one who became a Border Prince and had his enemies made into pies.

There IS light and hope in the setting, but overall it's supposed to be a grim world of perilous adventure, where doctors trying to help cure your pox will slap a leech on your arm, people dump their chamber pots in the gutters of overcrowded cities, and ratcatchers keep small but vicious dogs to ward off the completely imaginary ratmen that live in the sewers. You can't go to a wizard to grow back your teeth after the barber-surgeon pulled them out for you - maybe you could go to a hedge wizard, but only if you feel like risking some very unpleasant side effects and the wrath of the witch hunters. And why would greenskins want to go on starvation rations? That's what the runts are for!

It just doesn't feel like Warhammer to me. Maybe you got something different out of the setting than the rest of us, but I think this would be better served as a fantasy setting developed by you rather than an alteration of an existing one.
   
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 Spinner wrote:
I get that this is really for you, but I'd like to echo what the others are saying...it looks like a fun D&D setting, but I'm not seeing a lot of Warhammer. Just to start...the Old World is dark and perilous and full of superstitious peasants...and nobility, come to think of it. The gods aren't really big on intervening, if they're there...except for the ones the good guys don't want to intervene - and, honestly, I'm not sure why you completely changed the pantheon, it seems way more generic this way. Magic is dark and dangerous and strange because it ultimately comes from Chaos; it shouldn't be easy to master and most practitioners should suffer long-term effects. The technological stuff is there because it's meant to be styled after 16th-century Germany. Slayers don't wear armor because they want to die; it's harder for a troll to kill you if you're in full gromril, after all, and it would be un-dwarfish to just let it bite your head off, so they compromise . Halflings aren't hobbits, they're rude and promiscuous and there's one who became a Border Prince and had his enemies made into pies.

There IS light and hope in the setting, but overall it's supposed to be a grim world of perilous adventure, where doctors trying to help cure your pox will slap a leech on your arm, people dump their chamber pots in the gutters of overcrowded cities, and ratcatchers keep small but vicious dogs to ward off the completely imaginary ratmen that live in the sewers. You can't go to a wizard to grow back your teeth after the barber-surgeon pulled them out for you - maybe you could go to a hedge wizard, but only if you feel like risking some very unpleasant side effects and the wrath of the witch hunters. And why would greenskins want to go on starvation rations? That's what the runts are for!

It just doesn't feel like Warhammer to me. Maybe you got something different out of the setting than the rest of us, but I think this would be better served as a fantasy setting developed by you rather than an alteration of an existing one.


I understand what you are saying and see your points.

However

The world is dark yes now it is, but during the 4th and 5th editions it was a bit brighter. I do not want to remove the darkness, only reinstall the light closer to what it was in the 5th edition. Everything that I have not changed would be the same, Chaos, Greenskins, Elves, so for me everything is almost the same. But perspective is of course everything, one persons views are not of course another persons views.

My overall thought is this

"People who oppress others would surely be tempted by chaos and many of those who are oppressed would turn to chaos to gain power so to strike down their oppressors. " So when I think about it the world can not function as it is described, because almost all humans would be worshipping chaos.

I believe that as a peasant one would worship a god that increased ones daily life, wars come and go, but the land needs to be worked every day.

Dwarfs are very much against suicide, and they want to do their utmost effort before dying. Not wearing armour means they are not doing the absolute most they could be doing.

I would install magic to regrow limbs and teeth, that doesn't mean everyone could afford it.

When I wrote about how much food a Greenskin needs it was from an observation position, how much they "need" that doesn't mean they would happily do it, it is just a number on how much they "need". Of course they would WANT more, but they COULD survive on that number if forced to.

Magic would not be easy to master however the current system described in the warhammer fantasyrole play books is to punitive. There is no way one could even live more than a few years after one started practise magic.

Yes the world is a mix of the medieval ages and the renaissance, and removing gun powder is one of the things I am most uncertain about.

Yes this is how "my warhammer" would look like, currently completely unofficial and only having the possibility of becoming official if I ever acquire warhammer

Also interesting is that those who object the most seem to be from the USA, just a small side note, I have written these ideas in other places and it seems that people who object the most are from the USA. Maybe it has something to do with the concept of a constitution and the unwillingness to alter it.

Thanks for your time and your comments

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/03 20:29:59


 
   
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GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:

Also interesting is that those who object the most seem to be from the USA, just a small side note, I have written these ideas in other places and it seems that people who object the most are from the USA. Maybe it has something to do with the concept of a constitution and the unwillingness to alter it.


I...somehow doubt that has anything to do with it.

With regards to people turning to Chaos to fight oppression - the irony is that some cults do style themselves that way, or even truly believe it. The further irony is that this results in even worse treatment for political agitators and reformists, and the bleak truth about the Warhammer World is that it would be far, far worse under the rule of the Dark Gods. Most people either know that for certain, having seen the works of Chaos, or have heard enough campfire stories and superstitions about them that they believe it anyway...which is why cults are often formed from the exceptionally downtrodden or the exceptionally sheltered.

Peasants do have nature and agricultural gods; Taal and Rhya for huntsmen and farmers, Manaan for fishermen, and so on and so forth. Replacing them with one entity that actually has a physical, tangible, drastic effect in increasing harvest dramatically seems like change for the sake of change and introducing more active high-fantasy elements into what is essentially a low-fantasy setting. How can you be superstitious about magic if Hans the miller got his crushed hand fixed by the local wizard, and was able to pay him because everyone worships this farming god that gives them an insane amount of excess crops to sell and therefore he's rich?

Honestly, I'm not sure what tracking the amount of food greenskins can live off of does for the setting. I think it was already implied that they can keep going on less than, say, a human or an ogre; they had a rule in the original Mighty Empires that let an army cannibalize some of the smaller gits to avoid taking starvation damage.

Slayers want to die and they're not allowed to commit suicide, this is true, but as I understand it, it's deliberately killing oneself that would be seen as shameful in dwarf society, not getting oneself killed in honorable combat. Does it make a lot of sense? No, but it's not supposed to, and dwarf culture looks the other way a little bit if someone's trying to redeem their shame by getting mauled by the next big monster to wander by. Yes, they could wear armor, just like they could acknowledge that the local manling lord's great-great-grandfather was the one who cheated them out of their bill for his armor and he doesn't even know about it and it's probably unreasonable to hold a grudge against him, but that's just not how Warhammer dwarfs roll. They're not reasonable people

And I suppose if you cast magic all the time, you'd have problems...but hey, Color Wizards are powerful and influential people, no need to enchant brooms to clean the room when you have servants and apprentices - assuming you're not treating the latter like the former in the first place. It's not like D&D, where you can get away with casting cantrips left and right; magic is serious business, with serious consequences if you screw up. You want to think before throwing that fireball.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/03 21:15:22


 
   
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 Spinner wrote:
GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:

Also interesting is that those who object the most seem to be from the USA, just a small side note, I have written these ideas in other places and it seems that people who object the most are from the USA. Maybe it has something to do with the concept of a constitution and the unwillingness to alter it.


I...somehow doubt that has anything to do with it.

With regards to people turning to Chaos to fight oppression - the irony is that some cults do style themselves that way, or even truly believe it. The further irony is that this results in even worse treatment for political agitators and reformists, and the bleak truth about the Warhammer World is that it would be far, far worse under the rule of the Dark Gods. Most people either know that for certain, having seen the works of Chaos, or have heard enough campfire stories and superstitions about them that they believe it anyway...which is why cults are often formed from the exceptionally downtrodden or the exceptionally sheltered.

Peasants do have nature and agricultural gods; Taal and Rhya for huntsmen and farmers, Manaan for fishermen, and so on and so forth. Replacing them with one entity that actually has a physical, tangible, drastic effect in increasing harvest dramatically seems like change for the sake of change and introducing more active high-fantasy elements into what is essentially a low-fantasy setting. How can you be superstitious about magic if Hans the miller got his crushed hand fixed by the local wizard, and was able to pay him because everyone worships this farming god that gives them an insane amount of excess crops to sell and therefore he's rich?

Honestly, I'm not sure what tracking the amount of food greenskins can live off of does for the setting. I think it was already implied that they can keep going on less than, say, a human or an ogre; they had a rule in the original Mighty Empires that let an army cannibalize some of the smaller gits to avoid taking starvation damage.

Slayers want to die and they're not allowed to commit suicide, this is true, but as I understand it, it's deliberately killing oneself that would be seen as shameful in dwarf society, not getting oneself killed in honorable combat. Does it make a lot of sense? No, but it's not supposed to, and dwarf culture looks the other way a little bit if someone's trying to redeem their shame by getting mauled by the next big monster to wander by. Yes, they could wear armor, just like they could acknowledge that the local manling lord's great-great-grandfather was the one who cheated them out of their bill for his armor and he doesn't even know about it and it's probably unreasonable to hold a grudge against him, but that's just not how Warhammer dwarfs roll. They're not reasonable people

And I suppose if you cast magic all the time, you'd have problems...but hey, Color Wizards are powerful and influential people, no need to enchant brooms to clean the room when you have servants and apprentices - assuming you're not treating the latter like the former in the first place. It's not like D&D, where you can get away with casting cantrips left and right; magic is serious business, with serious consequences if you screw up. You want to think before throwing that fireball.


Hello, thanks for your new reply.

About Chaos, I still believe the current warhammer world would not work and basically almost all humans would be worshiping chaos.

Taal is more a "woods" god, Ryha however does somewhat fit in but no completely cover the farming god aspect. Also there is the Albaulea -- Goddess of Farming (Stirland), so making a farming god all over the empire was for me not a huge stretch. And I would like this farming god to have a real impact so an increase if soil quality and crop yields. Taal would not be replaced neither would Ryha. It is the 5 merchant gods I want to merge into 1 merchant god. And possibly decreasing other minor gods or merging them there are possible more than 100 minor gods in the warhammer world, however there would still be Taal and Ryha, Ryha might be modified a bit.

The Greenskin numbers as many of my comments, are to give a more definite answer to some things overlooked in the warhammer world, yes it must be assumed that a greenskin can live on less, but there weren't any numbers. I wanted to present some numbers. Once you have numbers you can being with calculations

I see your point about slayers, but in my mind the dwarfs would do their very best not to get killed, even though they seek out combat, and not wearing armor means he is not doing his very best. That is my line of though. The dwarf need to do their very best in all things, everything has to be perfect or as close to perfect as dwarfily possible.

About Grudges, Dwarfs always say manlings make shoddy work, yet the Dwarfs would hold humans to the same standards of oaths and honour as they hold other dwarfs? To me that seems implausible, they might have at one time, but then reached the conclusion that humans are humans and dwarfs are dwarfs, and one can not apply the same standards to both. There could also of course be a very well written back story to it, perhaps some novels, who knows Also these thoughts came to me whilst reading the novel "Grudge Bearer by Gav Thorpe, it rubbed me the wrong way when the Dwarf king "SPOILER" almost killed innocent human women and children. END SPOILER. To me Dwarfs are more noble than that.

About magic, I see it as any other skill, you need to practice to get good at it, just as swinging a sword or doing math, you need to practice many many times, swing many times, calculate many times, to be a good swordsman or completing a math test. So in the current warhammer world lore, it would not be possible you can not practice enough to even become the slightest bit familiar with a spell before dying. It fits into a weekend of playing warhammer fantasy roleplay but not if you extract it into a "real world" where a mage needs to practice countless times before becoming a novice. And yes that is one significant change from some of the lore but not all of, in many of the novels of the warhammer world, it is more towards the system i describe that once you know a spell you can cast it no problem, and you need to practice many times to get good. However the fantasy roleplay books it is more dangerous in the later version, compared to the first version which is close to my views.

Many of my modifications are based of, how would things work and function if you lived in that world. What would work, is this or that possible in the context of that world, you have magic you have gods yes but still things need to work and be "realistic" in that world under those rules. So I try and change things so that in my mind they could work, it could be possible. Because in the current lore, I do not see it working, in my mind it could simply not work.

It is my unofficial version of warhammer after all, so it is how I see things

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/03 22:48:56


 
   
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Well its a good thing you wont ever buy warhammer. For me anyhow. I dislike most of these changes. The reason many loved the old world is because it WASNT forgotten realms or ebberon. Its a near unique setting where the good guys dont always win. What you would like to do would ruin the story for myself and im betting ALOT of other people. Im not trying to bring you down either. I just felt the need to chime in.
   
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Table wrote:
Well its a good thing you wont ever buy warhammer. For me anyhow. I dislike most of these changes. The reason many loved the old world is because it WASNT forgotten realms or ebberon. Its a near unique setting where the good guys dont always win. What you would like to do would ruin the story for myself and im betting ALOT of other people. Im not trying to bring you down either. I just felt the need to chime in.


I understand completely what you are saying but do not of course agree wqith it

Also interesting is that your comment seems to be proving my american theory more and more correct US players don't like my changes.

About your comment I believe it was the darkening of the 6th edition and forward that resulted in the world blowing up because no one was buying warhammer anymore in enough quantities, plus of course bad business decisions.

And I see my world as pretty dark But of course others do not, perhaps you and they will only like it once and of course IF you could see the finished product, but who knows

You didn't like most changes, but perhaps some, if so which ones?
   
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I normally do not take part in discussions like this, but I felt that I have to due to this comment:

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
Also interesting is that your comment seems to be proving my american theory more and more correct US players don't like my changes.


To my understanding this forum’s memebership is US dominated – which means most comments are likely to come from americans. Also… I am from Europe and I don’t like your changes.
In my opinion adding too much high fantasy elements (especially the agricultural revolution and medical stuff) creates a lot of believability issues.

My feeling of Warhammer is based on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay as well as Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd Edition and 8th Edition. With this background in mind I give you a few comments about your proposed changes:

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
Unlike GW who constantly made everything darker and more grim because it is ”cool”, I want to install a bit more light and hope. Because I understand that you can not only have darkness and corruption with more corruption and darkness there needs to be light, there needs to be hope


The idea of Chaos in Warhammer seems to be heavily influenced by Michael Moorcock’s writings, which means it can be seen as a rather ”grim and dark” affair. Light and hope were there, but they were ultimately futile as mortals were mere puppets in game of gods (and fate, depending on one’s interpretation).

If these ideas work for you, it is ok. But I do have a feeling that some people like Warhammer world as written and feel a bit iffy when you dictate that you would change it like this. Of course they’re free to use the original setting even if you bought the licence and did these alterations

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
The farming gods priests would bless the land and crops giving many more harvests per year, possibly 5 in comparison to 1.


If we look at history this would lead to a huge agricultural surplus. This would lead to 1) radical population explosion (more food!) and 2) redistribution of labour force (less farmers needed to produce the food). You’d need to address these issues and how they work with Fantasy Races (if Empire can muster armies five times more numerous than before, what chances do orcs have?).

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
The merchant god does not offer magical transfer services between different people, so if a person wants to give money to another person, the money has to physically be transported.


This feels a bit too fantastic historically the monetary system in medieval/renaissance Europe was more developed than this.

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
100 coppers would be 1 silver and 100 silvers would be 1 gold… Dwarf coins would be the most difficult to shave, mill or damage…


First you create a nice system and then destroy it? I mean that if some coins are better, they’ll be of different value (based on metal content). E.g. will a bad quality Empire gold coin be worth 70 silver? Different quality coins are historically realistic of course, but perhaps a bit complicated for gaming purposes.

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
An average peasant who doesn’t get magical aid, divine or arcane, revenue per year is 1.25 gold, and that is revenue not profit. The profit is something like 5-15 silvers depending on skill and equipment. The peasant can feed his family and the ”profit” is how much he has left after that expense is factored in as well. So the profit is coin in hand so to speak. When you factor in the farming gods aid the revenue increases but market forces of supply and demand fight back so even though they get 5 harvests the profits ”only” increase 2,5 or so times. And that if he is not planting potatoes, potatoes give him even more revenue and profit and booze! These are just market theories and would need way more refinement but it is a start.


Several issues here, e.g.:
1) you want to create a cash economy (”coin in hand”) yet, at the same time, your proposed changes to Metal Magic say that they can’t transform metal to another. Now the problem here is that the coins for the economy have to come from somewhere. In order to have a functioning coin economy there must be a dramatic increase in metal production (probably copper) or a change to paper money. Otherwise it’s barter economy time.
2) Where does the purchasing power of the people not needed in farming come?
3) Historically the surplus in grain/potatoes partly goes into producing meat.
4) Are you implying that every farmer will be drunk most of the time? This might cause harvest issues…
5) etc.

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
Less chance of magical miscast, once a person knows a spell he can cast it as much as he likes


If there is no risk the magic becomes too mundane for Warhammer in my opinion. Might work in another setting of course. From roleplaying point of view this creates balance issues combined with your idea that the Wizards live longer etc. There is/was a game called Ars Magica for that.

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
The Bretonnians would be like they were in the 5th edition with true noble ideals and pure leaders, not the corrupt oppression that is now.


In original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Bretonnia was the most corrupted nation. Just sayin’

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
No gunpowder or steam power, since in my mind it can't be fantasy if there is gunpowder, again nothing is written in stone.


One of the things Warhammer had going on compared to other corresponding/competing Fantasy Worlds was (and is) gunpowder. Taking it away would be taking away something essential for the setting. It’s one of the things that gives hope, light and idea of progress you were after, after all…
   
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Yeah exactly 3 things make the Empire great faith, steel and gunpowder. Without gunpowder it's kinda stumbling around aimlessly for a reason the Empire is great.

I'd still find it hard to make the game worse than AoS though. AoS is still an abomination. Seriously the Queen should paddle his testicles into a red smear for what he did. I'm sure you'd at least look for fan feedback though which is infinitely better than GW esp. for Fantasy even with the new guy in charge.

---------

This is yet another reason why it's too bad Robin Williams died. Though i'm glad he never lived to see AoS (and died right after) i get the feeling he would've done something good for us Fantasy players. According to what i heard he used to play Chaos Dwarfs back when the game existed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/09 01:03:31


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Pahvivalmiste wrote:
I normally do not take part in discussions like this, but I felt that I have to due to this comment:

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
Also interesting is that your comment seems to be proving my american theory more and more correct US players don't like my changes.


1 To my understanding this forum’s memebership is US dominated – which means most comments are likely to come from americans. Also… I am from Europe and I don’t like your changes.
In my opinion adding too much high fantasy elements (especially the agricultural revolution and medical stuff) creates a lot of believability issues.

2 My feeling of Warhammer is based on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay as well as Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd Edition and 8th Edition. With this background in mind I give you a few comments about your proposed changes:

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
Unlike GW who constantly made everything darker and more grim because it is ”cool”, I want to install a bit more light and hope. Because I understand that you can not only have darkness and corruption with more corruption and darkness there needs to be light, there needs to be hope


3 The idea of Chaos in Warhammer seems to be heavily influenced by Michael Moorcock’s writings, which means it can be seen as a rather ”grim and dark” affair. Light and hope were there, but they were ultimately futile as mortals were mere puppets in game of gods (and fate, depending on one’s interpretation).

4 If these ideas work for you, it is ok. But I do have a feeling that some people like Warhammer world as written and feel a bit iffy when you dictate that you would change it like this. Of course they’re free to use the original setting even if you bought the licence and did these alterations

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
The farming gods priests would bless the land and crops giving many more harvests per year, possibly 5 in comparison to 1.


5 If we look at history this would lead to a huge agricultural surplus. This would lead to 1) radical population explosion (more food!) and 2) redistribution of labour force (less farmers needed to produce the food). You’d need to address these issues and how they work with Fantasy Races (if Empire can muster armies five times more numerous than before, what chances do orcs have?).

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
The merchant god does not offer magical transfer services between different people, so if a person wants to give money to another person, the money has to physically be transported.


6 This feels a bit too fantastic historically the monetary system in medieval/renaissance Europe was more developed than this.

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
100 coppers would be 1 silver and 100 silvers would be 1 gold… Dwarf coins would be the most difficult to shave, mill or damage…


7 First you create a nice system and then destroy it? I mean that if some coins are better, they’ll be of different value (based on metal content). E.g. will a bad quality Empire gold coin be worth 70 silver? Different quality coins are historically realistic of course, but perhaps a bit complicated for gaming purposes.

8
GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
An average peasant who doesn’t get magical aid, divine or arcane, revenue per year is 1.25 gold, and that is revenue not profit. The profit is something like 5-15 silvers depending on skill and equipment. The peasant can feed his family and the ”profit” is how much he has left after that expense is factored in as well. So the profit is coin in hand so to speak. When you factor in the farming gods aid the revenue increases but market forces of supply and demand fight back so even though they get 5 harvests the profits ”only” increase 2,5 or so times. And that if he is not planting potatoes, potatoes give him even more revenue and profit and booze! These are just market theories and would need way more refinement but it is a start.


Several issues here, e.g.:
1) you want to create a cash economy (”coin in hand”) yet, at the same time, your proposed changes to Metal Magic say that they can’t transform metal to another. Now the problem here is that the coins for the economy have to come from somewhere. In order to have a functioning coin economy there must be a dramatic increase in metal production (probably copper) or a change to paper money. Otherwise it’s barter economy time.
2) Where does the purchasing power of the people not needed in farming come?
3) Historically the surplus in grain/potatoes partly goes into producing meat.
4) Are you implying that every farmer will be drunk most of the time? This might cause harvest issues…
5) etc.

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
Less chance of magical miscast, once a person knows a spell he can cast it as much as he likes


9 If there is no risk the magic becomes too mundane for Warhammer in my opinion. Might work in another setting of course. From roleplaying point of view this creates balance issues combined with your idea that the Wizards live longer etc. There is/was a game called Ars Magica for that.

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
The Bretonnians would be like they were in the 5th edition with true noble ideals and pure leaders, not the corrupt oppression that is now.


10 In original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Bretonnia was the most corrupted nation. Just sayin’

GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
No gunpowder or steam power, since in my mind it can't be fantasy if there is gunpowder, again nothing is written in stone.


11 One of the things Warhammer had going on compared to other corresponding/competing Fantasy Worlds was (and is) gunpowder. Taking it away would be taking away something essential for the setting. It’s one of the things that gives hope, light and idea of progress you were after, after all…




Hello hello thanks for your comments, here are my replies

1 I was not referring to this forum specificlaly but overall, also dont confuse "most" with "only".

2 For me Warhammer is the first rpg and 4-5th edition of the fantasy battles.

3 I do not think the 6th edition and onward editions of warhammer could function in my mind they could not exist all the people who oppress would of course turn to chaos and those who are oppressed would either form their own communities and worship gods that do not allow these oppressive people in, or would worship chaos to get power to get some pay back on the opressors.

4 The work for me and will work for everyone !!! muhahahahhaha! I

5 For me the warhammer world could not exist with "normal" agriculture, one beastmen or orc attack even if repulsed would destroy the town/ village because the fields would be damaged which would lead to starvation. Basically you need this much food just to keep up with the constant damage, also as I see warhammer a bigger % of people die because of combat than did in the real world, and there are is a % of soldiers than there was in the real world.

6 There was no instant transfers between 2 people during that time, and there would be no instant transfers in my version of warhammer between 2 people. A person from city A can not instantly transfer money to a person from city B. The money needs to be transported, and of course you can hire someone to transport the money but the money needs to be physically transported.

7 The exchange rates for different nations / races is not something I invented it is in the 2nd edition of warhammer rpg in the supplement "Old World Armoury" page 9, it also covers forgery. I then made some small modifications to the official version. And of course the 100 system.

8,1 Coin in hand was meant to represent pure profit, it was not meant to be "coins in hand" but it could of course. From my point of view no there does not need to be an increase in the amount of metal production, many nations have existed for 1000+ years and have been digging gold and silver since long before that.

8.2 There is no "not needed" there could always be more farmers, always more land to be cleared. People who are merchants, traders, artist, scribes, etc etc all make money via their trade, and the proportion of money they make would be the same % as described in the official books but of course recalculated with the 100 system and using the average peasants revenue as a base.

8.3 Yes, more grain etc = more meat

8.4 In the real world that was the case, that is why I wrote it in ( parenthesis), this was just a comment about the real world, in the real world almost all male farmers were drunk all day and with the potato and potato alcohol the population actually had some real increase because once you are blastered you are blastered which left more food for the wife and children.

9 There would be risk yes, but not 1 in 10 chance which is currently described in the warhammer rpg book, which is good for a weekend of playing rpg, but no way good enough if you were to transfer it to a world setting. All novels I have read support my theory so it is not something unheard of the more you practise the better you get and you need to practise a lot. I am talking about lore here not if you have a weekend of playing.

10 Brets are noble, 4-5th edtion all the way

11 Gunpowder is one of the things I am most uncertain about, and for me hope and progress would come in other ways, as I have described

Thanks for your comments


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Yeah exactly 3 things make the Empire great faith, steel and gunpowder. Without gunpowder it's kinda stumbling around aimlessly for a reason the Empire is great.

I'd still find it hard to make the game worse than AoS though. AoS is still an abomination. Seriously the Queen should paddle his testicles into a red smear for what he did. I'm sure you'd at least look for fan feedback though which is infinitely better than GW esp. for Fantasy even with the new guy in charge.

---------

This is yet another reason why it's too bad Robin Williams died. Though i'm glad he never lived to see AoS (and died right after) i get the feeling he would've done something good for us Fantasy players. According to what i heard he used to play Chaos Dwarfs back when the game existed.




I think if I ever get enough money, everyone will love my version

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/10 00:27:28


 
   
Made in us
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Judging from the responses so far, I'd be willing to bet that they won't.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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 Just Tony wrote:
Judging from the responses so far, I'd be willing to bet that they won't.


The fantasy world was blown up and destroyed because no one was buying it. It no longer exists, it is gone.

It is my belief, and I have written this before, that one of the factors that lead to the destruction of the world was because of the GW choices to the lore post 5th edition.

The of course there is the question of sample size and who is writing.

The sample size is very small, and those writing are those who mostly liked the GW lore changes, thereby ignoring all other who never got into the game because they didn't like it or those who left and those who simply do not read Dakka forums.

Anyway as I wrote

The world was blown up, there is no greater failure. It is gone finito bye bye.

So anything less than complete destruction, in my mind, is good.
   
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GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Judging from the responses so far, I'd be willing to bet that they won't.


The fantasy world was blown up and destroyed because no one was buying it. It no longer exists, it is gone.

It is my belief, and I have written this before, that one of the factors that lead to the destruction of the world was because of the GW choices to the lore post 5th edition.

The of course there is the question of sample size and who is writing.

The sample size is very small, and those writing are those who mostly liked the GW lore changes, thereby ignoring all other who never got into the game because they didn't like it or those who left and those who simply do not read Dakka forums.

Anyway as I wrote

The world was blown up, there is no greater failure. It is gone finito bye bye.

So anything less than complete destruction, in my mind, is good.


As I understand it, virtually everyone's reaction to the destruction of the Warhammer world and replacement via the more high-fantasy Age of Sigmar was dismay at the loss of tone and setting; bar a few 40k players excited to see a game where there were clear Space Marine equivalents and Chaos was being driven back so they could have their Great Crusade fix, anyway. The most probable cause of WHFB losing player base - and the one most frequently cited by players - was price, followed by rules and neglect from GW.

I mean, you can definitely talk about sample size, but you can't assume that everyone who didn't respond would prefer the changes; also, it seems odd to characterize the setting as darkening post-fifth edition. That was roughly contemporary with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay first edition, right? If anything, the game got more 'heroic'. Bretonnia was a decadent and decaying mess, Karl Franz and Boris Todbringer were feeble, sickly figureheads, the flagship published adventure series could include a Chaos portal opening up in the middle of the Empire - in the second module, no less - fimir existed, lizardmen were underground troglodytic menaces, magic, especially the dark arts, would absolutely mess you up - like 'children and animals freaking out if you walk by in the street' mess you up - and there was a real sense of gloom hanging over everything.

I really do like the tone of WHFRP 1st edition, but I certainly don't think of it as lighter.

The vast majority of the responses, I'm afraid, don't seem to fit your view. I'm still not sure why you're styling this as a change to Warhammer and not altering a few distinctive things so you can make it a unique fantasy world instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/17 16:20:51


 
   
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 Spinner wrote:
GoldenIslandsYouTube wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Judging from the responses so far, I'd be willing to bet that they won't.


The fantasy world was blown up and destroyed because no one was buying it. It no longer exists, it is gone.

It is my belief, and I have written this before, that one of the factors that lead to the destruction of the world was because of the GW choices to the lore post 5th edition.

The of course there is the question of sample size and who is writing.

The sample size is very small, and those writing are those who mostly liked the GW lore changes, thereby ignoring all other who never got into the game because they didn't like it or those who left and those who simply do not read Dakka forums.

Anyway as I wrote

The world was blown up, there is no greater failure. It is gone finito bye bye.

So anything less than complete destruction, in my mind, is good.


As I understand it, virtually everyone's reaction to the destruction of the Warhammer world and replacement via the more high-fantasy Age of Sigmar was dismay at the loss of tone and setting; bar a few 40k players excited to see a game where there were clear Space Marine equivalents and Chaos was being driven back so they could have their Great Crusade fix, anyway. The most probable cause of WHFB losing player base - and the one most frequently cited by players - was price, followed by rules and neglect from GW.

I mean, you can definitely talk about sample size, but you can't assume that everyone who didn't respond would prefer the changes; also, it seems odd to characterize the setting as darkening post-fifth edition. That was roughly contemporary with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay first edition, right? If anything, the game got more 'heroic'. Bretonnia was a decadent and decaying mess, Karl Franz and Boris Todbringer were feeble, sickly figureheads, the flagship published adventure series could include a Chaos portal opening up in the middle of the Empire - in the second module, no less - fimir existed, lizardmen were underground troglodytic menaces, magic, especially the dark arts, would absolutely mess you up - like 'children and animals freaking out if you walk by in the street' mess you up - and there was a real sense of gloom hanging over everything.

I really do like the tone of WHFRP 1st edition, but I certainly don't think of it as lighter.

The vast majority of the responses, I'm afraid, don't seem to fit your view. I'm still not sure why you're styling this as a change to Warhammer and not altering a few distinctive things so you can make it a unique fantasy world instead.



Hey hey man thanks for your reply, here is mine to yours

You seem to missread almost everything that I write.

I wrote ONE of the reasons.

Here are some of the reasons but not all of the reasons. GW increased prices and lost customers and had less new customers leading to less overall sales so the icnreased prices again, giving a negative spiral. Another reason is bad marketing decision and bad overall decisions about the product. Another reason was that the people hired in the early 2000s were not that much interested int he porduct as they were about their salaries and making a name for themselves. There are many many reasons. And I wrote one of them.

You write everyone, no I do not mean everyone all 7 billion people on this planet who did not respond, what I am saying is that it is my opinion that if GW had not made the changes to the lore post 5th edition but kept it as it was then, there would have been more warhammer fans.

The lore in 4th-5th edition of warhammer in my mind was the best, then with some tweaking of the warhammer fantasy roleplay of both 1st and 2nd edition. The first edition has some interesting stuff which I would re-add such as Dwarf mages. Fire Dwarf Mage just speaks to me

And this thread is just me saying IF I ever acquired warhammer this is how I would change it. Again it is about how I would change it if I owned it. Anyone at any time can write that about anything. For example anyone at any time can write a thread about how they would change a book if they owned it. Just an example. Or how they would change a cooking recipe. Just another example.

I could if I wanted write down 60 million different fantasy worlds and at the same time write down how I would change warhammer, it is not mutually exclusive.


Perhaps, for you, it would be easier to just read what I write and not make any assumptions if it is not specifically written down. Perhaps that will help. And then again maybe not

Anyway thanks for your response.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/09/18 21:43:18


 
   
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Monticello, IN

You keep mentioning the lore changes post 5th. How much did the lore really change? A few bit special characters died or were altered. Albion happened. Past that, what? Bretonnia, and I agree with you on that one. If memory serves, there was a surge in WFB sales and games noted in both tourneys and campaigns at the time. In fact, it wasn't until the reset button in 7th where the changes to the lore were undone when people started to leave in larger numbers than were coming in. Not as much as during 8th, but still noticeable. I don't think it was the lore, but the shoddy changes to the rules that drove people away. That, and with some of your suggestions you just go into detail with superfluous stuff, suggest more of the corruption and grimdark that you claim to be wanting to remove, OR removing staple elements that I'm sure long time fans wouldn't be keen on removing.

And when it comes down to it, do you think anyone really delves so much into a non-RPG game to care about things like how much a Skaven eats in proportion to a human diet?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/18 23:11:04


www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




 Just Tony wrote:
You keep mentioning the lore changes post 5th. How much did the lore really change? A few bit special characters died or were altered. Albion happened. Past that, what? Bretonnia, and I agree with you on that one. If memory serves, there was a surge in WFB sales and games noted in both tourneys and campaigns at the time. In fact, it wasn't until the reset button in 7th where the changes to the lore were undone when people started to leave in larger numbers than were coming in. Not as much as during 8th, but still noticeable. I don't think it was the lore, but the shoddy changes to the rules that drove people away. That, and with some of your suggestions you just go into detail with superfluous stuff, suggest more of the corruption and grimdark that you claim to be wanting to remove, OR removing staple elements that I'm sure long time fans wouldn't be keen on removing.

And when it comes down to it, do you think anyone really delves so much into a non-RPG game to care about things like how much a Skaven eats in proportion to a human diet?



You need to take in market factors. The Lore in the 5th edition was a bit brighter, that what was being spread, so people joined, and kept on joining, then the product got a bit worse, that does not mean everything crashes over night of course not, but the potential growth factor, in my mind, went down, and the customer retention factor, in my mind, went down. All business have a lag factor BlackBerry being a good example.

Blackberry were unwilling to jump on the touch screen bandwagon thinking their hard button system was better, and their sales kept on climbing, but then they crashed because people simply left it for what the people wanted touch screen phones, a few hardcore enthusiast liked the hard buttons, but most customers wanted touch screens, by the time blackberry got on the touch screen bandwagon it was a bit too late and now they have been forced to scale back their own OS development and started using android on their phones. Blackberrys profit and market share have plummeted. They had a great opportunity by name recognition, market share, money and stock value to lead the charge on touch screen phones, without for that matter abandoning the hard button phones, but they did not. Keep the hard button phones by all means, but also have the touch screen which most people want.

Game mechanically the rules of the 6th edition for the game mechanics were a bit "better" to get into that the 5th edition.

Again, you seem to not really understand that I am saying the lore was one of many factors why I think the warhammer world ended being blown up, one of many and not the only exclusive.


Every line in my text is just a possible change I would make, not an absolute change

Just because you do not think something is interesting that does not mean someone else also thinks that

For me trying to work out how the warhammer world works and how it is able to function food consumption per race is interesting

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/21 00:51:18


 
   
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