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 Peregrine wrote:

It doesn't matter where the action economy comes from, she unquestionably gets a free actions worth of stuff from adaptive ailerons. Her ability lets her ignore the usual penalty for taking adaptive ailerons, so she's getting something akin to a free boost action every turn (on top of her normal action), for 0 points, and no penalty.

If adaptive ailerons didn't exist and her pilot ability simply read "before you reveal your dial, if you are not stressed, you may make a free boost action", would you still be saying "The only thing her pilot ability does is take away your action economy"? Of course you wouldn't, yet the result is almost exactly the same, and it's an amazing thing to have for zero points.

I really don't see what your point is. Adaptive ailerons does exist, so why should we consider a hypothetical where it doesn't?

Because, as I pointed out, the end result is the same as the 'not hypothetical' reality. You don't seem able (or willing) to look at the ship as a whole, and you keep making unequal comparisons. All my "hypothetical" does is put everything the ship does (in reality) onto one card, so it can be viewed as a whole, and compared fairly with other ships.

 Peregrine wrote:
Duchess' pilot ability gives you no action economy compared to the PS 1 generic of her ship

This is exactly what I'm talking about... we weren't comparing her to the PS1 generic, we were comparing her to other ships which can't take Adaptive Ailerons. You're trying to have your cake and eat it. You're comparing her to the generic Striker when you want to downplay her action economy, then you're comparing her to other aces when you want to downplay her ability. Then you're trying to make out that she doesn't have either, when in fact: if you look at it all as a whole, what her ship does is very good.

 Peregrine wrote:
Of course Fel and the Inquisitor aren't the only two good ships. There's also Vessery, Whisper, Carnor Jax, and Vader.

All those ships are more expensive than Turr Phennir, and significantly more expensive than Duchess, so again you're not making legitimate comparisons. Duchess is in the same price bracket as Omega Leader, if you wanted to, you could fit both of them in a list and still have enough points left over for a Decimator with Vader+Gunner. If you were building a list around Decivader, then that's legitimately something you might prefer to only having one ace and an Academy Pilot.

 Peregrine wrote:

If that's your standard for unplayable, then what's your standard for good? Triple Jumpmasters or go home? If that really is the case, then maybe x-wing just isn't worth playing at a competitive level.

Ah yes, the same old "YOUR WAAC YOU DONT HAVE FUN!!!!!!" nonsense that infests 40k. Complaining about how bad it is to only want to play competitive lists/ships doesn't make Duchess good.

No! It has nothing to do with calling you WAAC and not fun. I have the utmost respect for anyone who wants to play games properly, to the best of their ability, and would never say that. What I don't have to respect though, are games which are poorly designed, and end up shallow at the top (dominated by a small number of broken strategies). That's the narrow picture of X-Wing that you seem to constantly present "this is not Fel/PTL, so it's garbage and will always lose". Perhaps that's a realistic attitude, or perhaps it's just needlessly obtuse. Either way, it certainly puts a downer on trying to discuss anything new or different. I don't agree with this dichotomising of ships into simply competitive and uncompetitive, there are many many steps in between, especially in a game where a list can be greater than the sum of its parts.

 Smacks wrote:
Because, as I pointed out, the end result is the same as the 'not hypothetical' reality. You don't seem able (or willing) to look at the ship as a whole, and you keep making unequal comparisons. All my "hypothetical" does is put everything the ship does (in reality) onto one card, so it can be viewed as a whole, and compared fairly with other ships.

I've looked at the ship as a whole. The ship as a whole is a 3/2/4/0 stat line with two actions per turn (assuming you aren't stressed), one of which must be a boost. You get PS 10 if you want it, but awful action economy. This means that in any situation where you fail to dodge every threatening arc (and those situations will frequently happen) you have a ship that can be killed very quickly. And on offense you don't have any ability to stack focus + TL, boost/BR into position and then focus, etc. Yes, it's cheap (~10 points less than Fel, ~6 points less than the Inquisitor) but cheap is all you get. You end up with a ship that is much, much less capable than a good ace and in the standard imperial aces list (two aces + Palpatine) you don't save enough points to buy any meaningful ships/upgrades.

This is exactly what I'm talking about... we weren't comparing her to the PS1 generic, we were comparing her to other ships which can't take Adaptive Ailerons. You're trying to have your cake and eat it. You're comparing her to the generic Striker when you want to downplay her action economy, then you're comparing her to other aces when you want to downplay her ability. Then you're trying to make out that she doesn't have either, when in fact: if you look at it all as a whole, what her ship does is very good.

No, I'm saying that Duchess' pilot ability is bad. Compared to the PS 1 generic you get almost nothing from her pilot ability, so you're really paying a bunch of points for PS 8-10 and nothing else. What upgrades her ship type can take is irrelevant in the context of "is this pilot ability good or not". Give her Carnor Jax's pilot ability on the same ship and you would have a vastly more powerful ship that might even be worth taking.

And yes, you have to make both comparisons when you're evaluating a pilot ability. You compare to the generic to see what the pilot ability actually gives you, and then you compare that level of improvement to the level of improvement offered by other pilot abilities. The step up from PS 1 generic to "you can voluntarily not use your action economy advantage" is tiny relative to the step up from PS 1 generic to "you get a free focus token every turn".

All those ships are more expensive than Turr Phennir, and significantly more expensive than Duchess, so again you're not making legitimate comparisons. Duchess is in the same price bracket as Omega Leader, if you wanted to you could fit both of them in a list and still have enough points left over for a Decimator with Vader+Gunner. If you were building a list around Decivader, then that's legitimately something you might prefer to only having one ace and an Academy Pilot.

Or you could take the Inquisitor and Omega Leader with a Vader Decimator and have a much better list. Taking the gunner on the Decimator is much less valuable than upgrading Duchess to the Inquisitor. That's why Inquisitor/OLeader/Decimator has seen at least a bit of tournament use, while Phennir/OLeader/Decimator has not.

And no, they're not really much more expensive than Turr Phennir. Fel is 35 points, Phennir is 31. Vader is 31 points if you don't pay for engine upgrade. The Inquisitor is 31 points. Vessery and Whisper are more, yes, but you have plenty of options that are better than Phennir. That's why Phennir sees zero use in competitive tournaments while the Inquisitor is everywhere.

No! It has nothing to do with calling you WAAC and not fun. I have the utmost respect for anyone who wants to play games properly, to the best of their ability, and would never say that. What I don't have to respect though, are games which are poorly designed, and end up shallow at the top (dominated by a small number of broken strategies). That's the narrow picture of X-Wing that you seem to constantly present "this is not Fel/PTL, so it's garbage and will always lose". Perhaps that's a realistic attitude, or perhaps it's just needlessly obtuse. Either way, it certainly puts a downer on trying to discuss anything new or different. I don't agree with this dichotomising of ships into simply competitive and uncompetitive, there are many many steps in between, especially in a game where a list can be greater than the sum of its parts.

I'm sorry that hearing the truth about a ship you're excited about puts a downer on things, but I'm here to discuss the worth of a ship honestly, not congratulate people on how great their new ideas are. Duchess is bad, and complaining that it's more fun to think that she's good doesn't change the situation.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, I'm saying that Duchess' pilot ability is bad. Compared to the PS 1 generic you get almost nothing from her pilot ability, so you're really paying a bunch of points for PS 8-10 and nothing else.

We don't know how much the generics cost yet, and it's hard to quantify her ability when you don't know what opportunities you might miss when forced to boost. Being able to turn it off means she can transform a bump into a R1 shot, and means she's got 4 possible locations from which she can start her manoeuvre. I can understand, from a certain perspective, optionally losing an action sounds bad, but when you look at it in the context of how the upgrades work, allowing her that choice might open up a lot of potential over the generic.

If she got to ignore it and take a focus instead... that might be a bit too good.

What upgrades her ship type can take is irrelevant in the context of "is this pilot ability good or not". Give her Carnor Jax's pilot ability on the same ship and you would have a vastly more powerful ship that might even be worth taking.

I don't see any advantage it taking the ability out of context. That would be "a bit" like saying Whisper is a bad ship because ACD is irrelevant, and the generic Phantoms can also cloak. But that doesn't tell you anything about how the ship will work in games.

And yes, you have to make both comparisons when you're evaluating a pilot ability. You compare to the generic to see what the pilot ability actually gives you, and then you compare that level of improvement to the level of improvement offered by other pilot abilities. The step up from PS 1 generic to "you can voluntarily not use your action economy advantage" is tiny relative to the step up from PS 1 generic to "you get a free focus token every turn".

I guess I can agree with that, but I don't see much value in comparing abilities (unless you're interested in game design), comparing whole ships with their abilities, costs and upgrades makes more sense. Also, Fel's ability is one of the best in the game, while Duchess is a relatively cheap ship, it kind of makes sense that her ability isn't going to be on a par with his.

Or you could take the Inquisitor and Omega Leader with a Vader Decimator and have a much better list. Taking the gunner on the Decimator is much less valuable than upgrading Duchess to the Inquisitor. That's why Inquisitor/OLeader/Decimator has seen at least a bit of tournament use, while Phennir/OLeader/Decimator has not.

I feel like the Gunner is quite an important part of the Vader+Gunner combo. If you need to cut something that you wanted at the heart of your list, in order to fit the Inquisitor, then that only serves to demonstrate why a cheaper ship is a nice option to have. Maybe you could swap it around and have a better list, maybe you could swap it around a bit more, switch all three ships for jumpmasters and have an even better list... But that line of argument is absurd, and misses the point.

And no, they're not really much more expensive than Turr Phennir. Fel is 35 points, Phennir is 31. Vader is 31 points if you don't pay for engine upgrade. The Inquisitor is 31 points.

I wouldn't take Vader without the Engine Upgrade, I think (to be fair) he's 34 points without an EPT. The Inquisitor is admittedly very cheap, but lower PS.

I'm sorry that hearing the truth about a ship you're excited about puts a downer on things, but I'm here to discuss the worth of a ship honestly, not congratulate people on how great their new ideas are. Duchess is bad, and complaining that it's more fun to think that she's good doesn't change the situation.

You don't know the truth, we haven't even seen her fully yet. And what you call honesty, I would call cynicism, or a lack of imagination.

damn i forgot the popcorn....

 captain bloody fists wrote:
damn i forgot the popcorn....

Indeed. Meanwhile - back at the actual discussions:

Being able to turn it off means she can transform a bump into a R1 shot, and means she's got 4 possible locations from which she can start her manoeuvre.

That's a fair point I didn't think of immediately. Duchess is going to be a bitch to try and block - not as hard as trying to pin down someone with BB-8, but at least as bad as an Advanced Sensors Aggressor.

I'll be interested to see what turns up for the other two pilots - one apparently is called "Pure Sabbac".

 Smacks wrote:
We don't know how much the generics cost yet, and it's hard to quantify her ability when you don't know what opportunities you might miss when forced to boost. Being able to turn it off means she can transform a bump into a R1 shot, and means she's got 4 possible locations from which she can start her manoeuvre. I can understand, from a certain perspective, optionally losing an action sounds bad, but when you look at it in the context of how the upgrades work, allowing her that choice might open up a lot of potential over the generic.

We know the cost of the generics +/- 1 point because virtually every ship follows the same trend of +1 PS = +1 point. The PS 1 generic is almost certainly 15-16 points.

And yes, you can voluntarily decline your second action and this has some value, but it's a very small improvement relative to things like "you get an extra focus token every turn" or "you may shoot twice (with re-rolls on both shots) each turn". And it does absolutely nothing to help with Duchess' biggest problem: poor defense.

I don't see any advantage it taking the ability out of context. That would be "a bit" like saying Whisper is a bad ship because ACD is irrelevant, and the generic Phantoms can also cloak. But that doesn't tell you anything about how the ship will work in games.

You take it out of context because the original statement was "her pilot ability is bad". And considering the pilot ability in isolation is one of the components of analyzing a ship. You're paying points to upgrade from a generic pilot to one with an ability, so how can you know if this is something you want to do if you don't know how much the pilot ability you're getting is worth?

And your example is also really bad. Whisper's pilot ability is extremely powerful because it's very close to "you get +1 action per turn". The fact that Whisper gets a very good pilot ability is part of why Whisper is a competitive choice, Whisper would be much weaker as a PS 7 generic with an EPT.

I feel like the Gunner is quite an important part of the Vader+Gunner combo. If you need to cut something that you wanted at the heart of your list, in order to fit the Inquisitor, then that only serves to demonstrate why a cheaper ship is a nice option to have. Maybe you could swap it around and have a better list, maybe you could swap it around a bit more, switch all three ships for jumpmasters and have an even better list... But that line of argument is absurd, and misses the point.

The gunner is a luxury pick, with 16 HP a Decimator is probably going to live long enough for Vader to do his job even without gunner. And the upgrade from Duchess to the Inquisitor is massive, you trade PS 10 for PS 8 but gain massive improvements in action economy and durability. I said it before, but I'll say it again: you have argued that Duchess is comparable to Turr Phennir, and Decimator/Phennir/OLeader lists are nonexistent in competitive play while Decimator/Inquisitor/OLeader has seen at least some use. According to you Decimator/Duchess/OLeader should be comparable to Decimator/Phennir/OLeader, and that means it is not a viable list.

And no, the fact that you could upgrade to three u-boats is entirely relevant. Talking about which of two bad lists is slightly less bad is pointless because neither of them are going to be used. There's no prize for being the best of the bad ships that nobody takes, you either compete with top-tier ships/lists like u-boats or you join all the other bad ships collecting dust on the shelf.

You don't know the truth, we haven't even seen her fully yet. And what you call honesty, I would call cynicism, or a lack of imagination.

No, we haven't seen that last upgrade card, but what's your point? We're talking about the ship as-is. If the missing upgrade card says "when attacking or defending roll additional dice equal to your pilot skill" for 1 point I will gladly concede that Duchess and the TIE striker are good. But the fact that you are discussing the new stuff right now, before everything has been released, demonstrates that you don't believe that it's impossible to accurately evaluate new stuff before all of the cards are known. If you did you wouldn't be talking about how much you like Duchess and how much potential she has, you'd be saying nothing more than "we don't know yet, we can't have this discussion".

And sure, it's cynicism. Cynicism wins games because you don't waste time pretending that bad lists and bad ships are good, you can clear away the clutter and focus on the things that matter. Pretending that Duchess is good when she isn't might make the discussion of the preview article more fun for you because you enjoy the hype of new stuff, but it's not my job to keep the happy mood going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

locarno24 wrote:
That's a fair point I didn't think of immediately. Duchess is going to be a bitch to try and block - not as hard as trying to pin down someone with BB-8, but at least as bad as an Advanced Sensors Aggressor.

I think her immunity to blocking is going to be pretty overrated. BB-8 (and advanced sensors with barrel roll) makes a ship hard to block because a barrel roll lets you sidestep a blocking ship and get your maneuver clear. A boost before moving has a much smaller spread of potential end points and is much more likely to carry you directly into the blocking ship. For example, a boost into a ship in base contact ahead of you will often fail to clear (yes, the striker actually does a maneuver, but it often won't take you very far before you bump and stop) because the template is shorter than the blocking base. So you're only getting much benefit from the pre-move boost when you're talking about the kind of blocking where you have a single ship setting up right on your (predicted) ending point, not the kind of ugly "ball of ships in the center of the table" blocking that is the biggest threat. And even against a single blocker the barrel roll is much better because it doesn't change your arc direction. With a boost you might be able to to clear the blocker, but only at the cost of changing direction and losing your shot.

Also, in the case of the Aggressor, the speed increase from having a large base is a significant factor. Boosting before you move with a large base covers a lot more distance than a small-base ship in the same situation.

I didn't say immune, just difficult - I agree BB-8 is much better; a sideslip will always be better for avoiding things.

I do agree that the increased move from a large base is part of the reason boost is so much better on a large ship (which is why Engine Upgrade isn't actually Large Ship Only but is normally only seen on large ships), but within the specific context of advanced sensors and avoiding being blocked, it's no better because of the huge base you've got to find space for at the end of the template.

The maneuver-rather-than-boost also means that (as noted) you can move up to the blocking ship, even if you stop mid-template, which is an advantage in avoiding being blocked over a boost.

You will still (I assume, reading the rules) lose your action if you collide on an adaptive ailerons maneuver* but whilst blocking someone to cost their action is nice, it's much less valuable if it doesn't also leave them stranded in a location of your choice to be shot at at close range.



*
Because - as noted - it's still a maneuver, even if not your 'primary' one:

A ship must skip its "Perform Action" step if it overlapped another ship while executing a maneuver.

 Peregrine wrote:
The gunner is a luxury pick, with 16 HP a Decimator is probably going to live long enough for Vader to do his job even without gunner. And the upgrade from Duchess to the Inquisitor is massive, you trade PS 10 for PS 8 but gain massive improvements in action economy and durability. I said it before, but I'll say it again: you have argued that Duchess is comparable to Turr Phennir, and Decimator/Phennir/OLeader lists are nonexistent in competitive play while Decimator/Inquisitor/OLeader has seen at least some use. According to you Decimator/Duchess/OLeader should be comparable to Decimator/Phennir/OLeader, and that means it is not a viable list.

You're still missing the point about the Decimator. The Decimator just represents any ship (or combination of ships) in your list, that you want to use, and which encroaches on the 50 points mark. You might be able to analyse the Decimator, and say that it's worth cutting some things out, in order to make room for the Inquisitor; but are you seriously going to do that for every 50 point combination, to show that's "always" beneficial? If you could, I'd be impressed, because that would be on a par with proving Fermat's last theorem.

As for the comparison with Turr Phennir, I said she's "at least" as good (and most likely a lot cheaper). She's also not as dependant on getting her shot and shooting first, as she gets her action either way. The problem with what you say is that you're trying to make out that because Turr Phennir isn't top tier then he must be "garbage tier", that attitude ignores that not all underused ships are equal. Turr Phennir is a "good" ship, not the "best" ship, but he only falls short of the top tier by a hairs breadth. Being a little bit better than him for a little less points, might actually make all the difference.

Pretending that Duchess is good when she isn't might make the discussion of the preview article more fun for you because you enjoy the hype of new stuff, but it's not my job to keep the happy mood going.

You're just straw-manning here: I'm not pretending she's good to make myself feel happy, I think she has potential to be a cheap ace (where needed), possibly as an alternative to Omega Leader. You're trying to argue that there is no situation ever, where anyone (anyone who isn't an uncompetitive scrub) would ever want that. That's a slightly obtuse and arrogant attitude, given that you don't have a complete knowledge of what people might want to build.

locarno24 wrote:
That's a fair point I didn't think of immediately. Duchess is going to be a bitch to try and block - not as hard as trying to pin down someone with BB-8, but at least as bad as an Advanced Sensors Aggressor.

I think her immunity to blocking is going to be pretty overrated. BB-8 (and advanced sensors with barrel roll) makes a ship hard to block because a barrel roll lets you sidestep a blocking ship and get your maneuver clear. A boost before moving has a much smaller spread of potential end points and is much more likely to carry you directly into the blocking ship. For example, a boost into a ship in base contact ahead of you will often fail to clear (yes, the striker actually does a maneuver, but it often won't take you very far before you bump and stop) because the template is shorter than the blocking base. So you're only getting much benefit from the pre-move boost when you're talking about the kind of blocking where you have a single ship setting up right on your (predicted) ending point, not the kind of ugly "ball of ships in the center of the table" blocking that is the biggest threat. And even against a single blocker the barrel roll is much better because it doesn't change your arc direction. With a boost you might be able to to clear the blocker, but only at the cost of changing direction and losing your shot.

Don't forget, she can also boost and K-turn (she might even have a talon roll or something). That would give quite a bit of leeway to make sure she clears ships and turns behind them (a bit like Tetran Cowall's ability). You can also turn into a much more acute angle on ship by boosting left and then turning right, as a dodging manoeuvre, which means you can move further out of arc with your roll and not lose your shot (try it out).

You're just straw-manning here: I'm not pretending she's good to make myself feel happy, I think she has potential to be a cheap ace (where needed), possibly as an alternative to Omega Leader. You're trying to argue that there is no situation ever, where anyone (anyone who isn't an uncompetitive scrub) would ever want that. That's a slightly and obtuse and arrogant attitude, given that you don't have a complete knowledge of what people might want to build.

Welcome to Peregrineworld, where everything is garbage or broken and middle-ground or situational is for losers.

Didn't I make a post... like two weeks ago saying "Yall should calm yo'selves because you will always argue til you are turning in your graves due to your opposite perspectives and experiences with gaming"?

Give it a rest, seriously. Nobody needs to prove themselves so darn hard on the internet of all things. Let us discuss the game that we are here to discuss and accept that people think/play/love the game differently.

I think X-Wing is awesome for every walk of life, but that doesn't mean I expect Peregrine, Azreal13, or anyone to go trip on daisies with me about how fun or cool A-Wings are. To each their own. If your friend doesn't like video games, you do not try and nag him for weeks about why his opinion is wrong and that he needs to speedrun Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.



SO, I have some non-competitive discussion. Anyone think that it'd be fun to run U Wing with an X Wing and Y Wing since they look like a family?

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
Didn't I make a post... like two weeks ago saying "Yall should calm yo'selves because you will always argue til you are turning in your graves due to your opposite perspectives and experiences with gaming"?

This is kind of a prerequisite for any sort of discussion. When everyone agrees, the conversation is pretty short.

Give it a rest, seriously. Nobody needs to prove themselves so darn hard on the internet of all things. Let us discuss the game that we are here to discuss and accept that people think/play/love the game differently.

We are discussing it, if it isn't a topic to your liking, start another thread and don't participate. If you feel that the topic isn't being stuck to, or that other forum rules are being broken, use the yellow triangle, don't try and mini mod yourself.

I think X-Wing is awesome for every walk of life, but that doesn't mean I expect Peregrine, Azreal13, or anyone to go trip on daisies with me about how fun or cool A-Wings are. To each their own. If your friend doesn't like video games, you do not try and nag him for weeks about why his opinion is wrong and that he needs to speedrun Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.

Once again, if you don't like the discussion, create your own, if people are discussing the topic and not personally attacking each other, that you don't like the way it is being discussed is, frankly, your problem, and not our responsibility to pander to.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Welcome to Peregrineworld, where everything is garbage or broken and middle-ground or situational is for losers.

Welcome to 2016 X-Wing, where the metagame is incredibly polarized between high-PS arc dodgers that are completely immune to 99% of the ships in the game even when they don't dodge your arc and spammable torp boats throwing 5-dice attacks that are almost always 5 hits. X-Wing used to be a game where you had a lot of second-tier stuff that was almost as good as the best lists and games could be won with clever flying and maybe a little luck. But now a lot of games are won or lost in the list-building phase. The best stuff is just too good at what it does for any (reasonable) advantage in in-game decisions to overcome the obscene difference in math.

Now, there still is a small set of mid-tier stuff, but Phennir and Duchess aren't in it. Carnor Jax and PTL Corran, for example, are mid-tier ships. They aren't showing up a lot in winning tournament lists but they're good at what they do and could occasionally see use if you need a ship that has exactly what they offer (or if the metagame shifts a bit in the right direction). Phennir, on the other hand, is garbage-tier because he's bad, not because I refuse to acknowledge a middle tier. He's a much weaker version of Soontir Fel without enough of a point difference to justify the drop in power. He isn't seen at all in competitive play, and hasn't been in a very long time. And Duchess seems to be in the same position. She's trying to fill the Fel-style ace role but has poor action economy and extremely poor defense. Unless something in the hidden cards makes up for these problems she's stuck in the awkward middle ground where you have to pay a lot more points than the efficient generics but don't get the power level of a true ace. And recent history pretty well demonstrates that this is not a good position to be in.

Not going to lie, I am enjoying the debate about this ship quite a bit. Even though my group is very casual, there are some fantastic posts in this thread so far. Keep up the good work guys, gives me some great points to think on.

I don't plan on using Duchess, not a big fan of her pilot ability. I am much more excited for the PS4 generics and the lower PS uniques. Get the feeling that those pilots are really going to make or break this release.

 Smacks wrote:
You're still missing the point about the Decimator. The Decimator just represents any ship (or combination of ships) in your list, that you want to use, and which encroaches on the 50 points mark. You might be able to analyse the Decimator, and say that it's worth cutting some things out, in order to make room for the Inquisitor; but are you seriously going to do that for every 50 point combination, to show that's "always" beneficial? If you could, I'd be impressed, because that would be on a par with proving Fermat's last theorem.

But why pick exactly 50 points? Why not 51 points where your "Duchess is good because she lets you bring X/Y/Z ships together" argument falls apart because Duchess no longer fits? Trying to decide if a ship is good enough or not based on what arbitrary point bracket it fits into is a dead-end argument. If you want to argue that a particular point bracket is necessary then you need to provide some example lists that require a specific combination of point values to work. For example, Palp aces starts with a 29 point shuttle so you have 71 points to split between two aces (and, optionally, shuttle upgrades). Duchess is bad in this kind of list because she is far weaker than the standard Fel/Inquisitor pair but doesn't free up enough points to bring a third ace. Taking Duchess just gives you an extreme initiative bid and/or pointless things like a shield upgrade on the shuttle.

Turr Phennir is a "good" ship, not the "best" ship, but he only falls short of the top tier by a hairs breadth.

And here's where you're wrong. Phennir falls short of the top tier by a massive margin, for the reasons I've already mentioned. You save 4 points compared to Soontir Fel but lose way more than 4 points worth of power, and don't even have the justification of "but they have different roles" to justify it. Or, compared to the Inquisitor you have the same point cost and get +1 PS in exchange for crippling your action economy. If you're comparing Duchess to Phennir in power level (relative to point cost) you're admitting that Duchess is garbage tier.

You're trying to argue that there is no situation ever, where anyone (anyone who isn't an uncompetitive scrub) would ever want that.

No, you're just making a straw man here. I'm not arguing that there is no possible situation ever where Duchess could possibly be considered. Obviously there are fluky situations like "I need exactly 23 points to finish my list and I won't change anything else" where Duchess is better than an academy pilot and an 11 point initiative bid, but if the most optimistic evaluation of a ship is "it can't be proved that there is no possible situation where anyone would take this" then it's a concession that the ship is bad. After all, even ships we all acknowledge to be garbage-tier (starvipers, rookie x-wings, etc) have occasionally been used because a very specific situation required them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I am much more excited for the PS4 generics and the lower PS uniques. Get the feeling that those pilots are really going to make or break this release.

My thoughts, pretty much. If the PS 4 has an EPT like I'm expecting (based on having three generics) so it can take crack shot it's going to be a pretty scary swarm ship. Efficient 3-dice guns with Howlrunner re-rolls and crack shot are going to remove stuff from the table very quickly.

What are your thoughts on if it being possible to run 5 of the PS4 generics with Crack Shot, Advanced Ailerons and potentially the hidden modification Light-something if it's cheap enough, to not run them in a swarm?

The reason I ask is that I feel there is no reason to not use Advanced Ailerons for the movement shenanigans and that I get the feeling Howlrunner is going to struggle to keep enough, or make the swarm predictable in that most people will probably have them doing maneuvers they share, limiting their options.

What are the probabilities of the dice on a 3 Attack ship with and without Howlrunner, and is it small enough to justify running them individually.

IMO the Howlrunner buff is so absurdly powerful in a swarm that you'll find a way to make it work. I think in the opening turns you'll probably stick to doing straight maneuvers, especially with the boost, and it should be possible to keep the formation together for the opening salvo where it matters most. After that Howlrunner is probably dead anyway since she's the obvious priority target and the rest of the swarm is free to break up and maneuver at its full potential.

Surely, as others have mentioned, the value of the Striker is in the ps4 (if it has an EPT) and the ps1 for blocking shenanigans. Duchess might have a role but I'm not seeing it With what we know now. I don't value her as highly as zeta leader who comes in at a cheaper price point. Overall the ship hasn't captured my imagination.

 Peregrine wrote:

Turr Phennir is a "good" ship, not the "best" ship, but he only falls short of the top tier by a hairs breadth.

And here's where you're wrong. Phennir falls short of the top tier by a massive margin, for the reasons I've already mentioned. You save 4 points compared to Soontir Fel but lose way more than 4 points worth of power,

Soontir Fel is not where the top tier starts though, he's the best of the best Imperial ships. He's also better than Jax by a massive margin, and Jax is the same price (assuming you go shields). If Jax is on the line, then Phennir isn't far behind him, significantly cheaper, and better PS. He'll also fit comfortably into Palp Aces alongside Whisper, and their abilities both work well with having initiative.

I'm not arguing that there is no possible situation ever where Duchess could possibly be considered. Obviously there are fluky situations like "I need exactly 23 points to finish my list and I won't change anything else" where Duchess is better than an academy pilot and an 11 point initiative bid...

Okay good, then we're in agreement.

but if the most optimistic evaluation of a ship is "it can't be proved that there is no possible situation where anyone would take this" then it's a concession that the ship is bad.

Well I'm glad you at least acknowledge that it might be good/useful in some situations, I guess that's as much as I can hope for. I will make the concession that she's not as good as Soontir Fel.

@ azreal13

I'm sorry. I am probably reading too far into their mud-slinging. Forgive me, Moderator.

 Smacks wrote:
Soontir Fel is not where the top tier starts though, he's the best of the best Imperial ships. He's also better than Jax by a massive margin, and Jax is the same price (assuming you go shields). If Jax is on the line, then Phennir isn't far behind him, significantly cheaper, and better PS. He'll also fit comfortably into Palp Aces alongside Whisper, and their abilities both work well with having initiative.

Why are you talking about a shield upgrade on Carnor Jax? You take the same stealth + autothrusters as Fel. And you're wrong about the rest of it as well:

Carnor Jax is not as good as Soontir Fel (confirmed by tournament results), but he's not all that far behind. You lose a point of PS and the free focus every turn, but in exchange you deny your opponent's tokens. If you deny one token that's equal to Fel's action economy, if you deny more than one you're coming out ahead. And this is an especially relevant pilot ability in a metagame where the two dominant list archetypes both depend on their tokens to be successful. U-boats are almost entirely disarmed if you take away their focus tokens, while imperial aces depend on piles of defensive tokens to stay alive. Carnor Jax can potentially be a nasty control and area denial tool in the right strategy. And that's enough to say that, while Carnor Jax isn't in the top tier, he's solidly in the second tier of "not the best, but still at least reasonable" ships.

Turr Phennir is just plain bad. You save 4 points over Fel in exchange for losing a third of your actions and making another third extremely limited. You can't stack focus + evade to stay alive, you can't boost/BR into position and take a focus for your shot, you're completely screwed if you can't shoot first and then get out of arc with your free action, etc. IOW, compared to Fel you lose way more points worth of power than you save in point cost. And, unlike Carnor Jax and his control tools, you don't gain anything to make up for the loss of raw power. You're just trying to copy Fel's role with a vastly inferior version of Fel. And no, it doesn't work with Whisper in Palp aces. You can't fit Phennir without giving up the stealth + autothrusters combo that makes Palp aces so powerful, and if you take Phennir with stealth + autothrusters you're paying as much as the Inquisitor for a much weaker ship.

Duchess seems to be in the same garbage-tier category as Phennir (confirmed by your comparison between the two). You save some points, yeah, but only at the cost of the things that make the standard imperial aces so powerful.

Okay good, then we're in agreement.

No, we're not in agreement at all, because "you can't prove beyond any doubt that this ship will never, not even once, be used" is not a favorable evaluation. It's just the same "in theory it is possible" that applies to any ship in X-Wing. The Scyk is almost unanimously agreed to be the worst ship in the game and is nonexistent in competitive play but it's still theoretically possible that a list will one day find a use for a Scyk. Duchess is garbage-tier and unlikely to see any serious competitive use, even if it can't be proved beyond any conceivable doubt.

 Peregrine wrote:
Why are you talking about a shield upgrade on Carnor Jax? You take the same stealth + autothrusters as Fel.

I've noticed that a lot of people don't trust green dice, and prefer Shield/Hull on Jax. Without PS9 and the guaranteed Focus every turn, he's not as sure a gamble as Fel.

Turr Phennir is just plain bad. You save 4 points over Fel in exchange for losing a third of your actions and making another third extremely limited.

Yes, we all agree that Fel is the better ship. So why keep making that comparison?

You can't stack focus + evade to stay alive, you can't boost/BR into position and take a focus for your shot, you're completely screwed if you can't shoot first and then get out of arc with your free action, etc.

When PTL ships boost+roll, they have to do it in such a way, so that they dodge out of arc without loosing their own shot. While that can be fun when it works, it sometimes requires milimeter precision. Turr Phennir doesn't have that problem, as he can Focus/Roll, then take his shot, then Boost past without having to worry about his facing. IOW, it's much easier for him to get out of arc without losing his shot. And because he isn't stressed he can follow up with white 1 turns, or even a k-turn. He is a bit screwed if he doesn't get to shoot first, but then so is Whisper. At PS9 and with initiative, it's a well mitigated risk.

And no, it doesn't work with Whisper in Palp aces. You can't fit Phennir without giving up the stealth + autothrusters combo that makes Palp aces so powerful, and if you take Phennir with stealth + autothrusters you're paying as much as the Inquisitor for a much weaker ship.

You can fit Stealth+Autothrusters if you drop the crew option on Whisper (or go with IA). And I don't really enjoy playing with the Inquisitor, there is little incentive to do anything other than stack tokens every turn, even getting into R1 is pointless. I'd prefer to play with almost any other Ace where possible.

Duchess seems to be in the same garbage-tier category as Phennir (confirmed by your comparison between the two). You save some points, yeah, but only at the cost of the things that make the standard imperial aces so powerful.

Now we're back to "Imperial Aces is the only legitimate Imperial list" ... "blah blah Tournament Rankings". Which inherently limits our discussion to only things which have been successful in previous tournaments i.e: nothing new.

Okay good, then we're in agreement.

No, we're not in agreement at all.

 Smacks wrote:
Sometimes: "The garbage will do!".

Spoiler:

Does anyone think that Tie Strikers will be replacing compatriots of the Darth Vader & Friends and namely, bring it back? Darth Vader and Friends relied on pulling all the Fighter-Aces that could roll 3 dice, now it has a cheaper and more reliable method of supplying said dice-volume since it doesn't worry about the situational 3-4 dice and brings more action economy in the form of ailerons.

Darth w/ Advanced-Stuff and Squad Leader
Tie Strikers x4-5?

Why are you talking about a shield upgrade on Carnor Jax? You take the same stealth + autothrusters as Fel.

I've noticed that a lot of people don't trust green dice, and prefer Shield/Hull on Jax. Without PS9 and the guaranteed Focus every turn, he's not as sure a gamble as Fel.

I dunno if I'd take both shields and hull, but I've seen quite a lot of people sub out one of the modifications for shields. Partly it's Darth Vader insurance, partly because he needs to dance into range 1 a lot to justify his existance, and 4-dice attacks hurt.

Does anyone think that Tie Strikers will be replacing compatriots of the Darth Vader & Friends and namely, bring it back? Darth Vader and Friends relied on pulling all the Fighter-Aces that could roll 3 dice, now it has a cheaper and more reliable method of supplying said dice-volume since it doesn't worry about the situational 3-4 dice and brings more action economy in the form of ailerons.

Darth w/ Advanced-Stuff and Squad Leader
Tie Strikers x4-5?

As I've been saying, regardless of whether Duchess (and Pure Sabbac, and whatever the other one is) are any good, the Strike looks like a TIE interecptor with abilities optimised for the lower-end pilots. So having a pack of 3 or so who can keep up with Darth Vader, block for him, and provide him with the massed firepower he needs, might work well.

I probably wouldn't take squad leader; it's unlikely that an action on a generic striker is going to do you more good than an action on Vader himself, and this way he can fly loose; think of the strikers as a slightly mini-er and faster miniswarm with more teeth per unit.

Ah, yes. And since the strikers are not PS5+ like the Tie Fighter Pilots, squad leader has less value.

Squad Leader is an odd beasty; Vader is one of the only two ships I'd use it on - because he's got both a free elite pilot talent and a free action from his pilot ability - but it's only really worth giving up his action if the action is going onto either another ace, or else to enable something like an alpha strike target lock on a missile carrier.

The other one, randomly, is Youngster. In a TIE fighter all-stars list with all the named pilots, you have lots of different pilot skill levels - hence a lot of options to use it.

 Smacks wrote:
Yes, we all agree that Fel is the better ship. So why keep making that comparison?

Because Phennir is trying to do the same thing as Fel. Unlike Carnor Jax and his control role Phennir has nothing different to offer. Anything he can do can be done better by Fel, the only difference is the point cost. And Fel is much more than 4 points worth of better at being Fel than Phennir, so why would you take a significantly inferior version of a ship?

When PTL ships boost+roll, they have to do it in such a way, so that they dodge out of arc without loosing their own shot. While that can be fun when it works, it sometimes requires milimeter precision. Turr Phennir doesn't have that problem, as he can Focus/Roll, then take his shot, then Boost past without having to worry about his facing. IOW, it's much easier for him to get out of arc without losing his shot. And because he isn't stressed he can follow up with white 1 turns, or even a k-turn. He is a bit screwed if he doesn't get to shoot first, but then so is Whisper. At PS9 and with initiative, it's a well mitigated risk.

Except it isn't easier to get him out of arc without losing a shot. There are a lot of cases where you need both the boost and the barrel roll to get arc on a target, and Phennir can't do that. Nor can Phennir do the "screw it, I'm out of here" disengage that Fel is capable of. If your maneuver points you out of arc of all targets (as Fel often does with a hard turn or 4-straight away from the fight) you have only a single action for defense. Fel can do the disengage move, add a boost/BR, and still have focus + evade for defense. Phennir's post-shooting maneuver is simply worse than Fel's ability to take three actions per turn, by way more than the 4 point difference between them.

And I don't really enjoy playing with the Inquisitor, there is little incentive to do anything other than stack tokens every turn, even getting into R1 is pointless. I'd prefer to play with almost any other Ace where possible.

Well, ok, but that doesn't have anything to do with which ship is good. You can prefer a weaker ship all you like, but the weaker ship is still bad.

Now we're back to "Imperial Aces is the only legitimate Imperial list" ... "blah blah Tournament Rankings". Which inherently limits our discussion to only things which have been successful in previous tournaments i.e: nothing new.

You know why? Because you're talking about a Palp aces list. Phennir, Duchess, etc, all go in the same imperial aces archetype. They're just bad at it compared to the standard imperial aces. There's potential for innovation with things like the PS 4 generic in a crack swarm but that has nothing to do with the aces discussion.

About the only thing I don't agree with you on is that ships which are slightly worse are "garbage tier".

Except, as I keep telling you, this is not a case of ships being slightly worse. Carnor Jax is slightly worse than Soontir Fel. Turr Phennir is utter garbage compared to Soontir Fel. Duchess looks like she's going to be utter garbage. Don't mistake the fact that certain ships are garbage tier for some kind of binary world where there are only tournament winners and garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
Darth w/ Advanced-Stuff and Squad Leader

There is no situation where you even consider squad leader on Vader. Squad leader is a terrible upgrade, the best way to use it is to forget that it exists.

Agreed with the last point you made. An action on Vader is always worth more and will generally have more impact on the game than an action on a goon.

 Peregrine wrote:
Except it isn't easier to get him out of arc without losing a shot. There are a lot of cases where you need both the boost and the barrel roll to get arc on a target.

If that's really the case, then the Inquisitor isn't much better when one of his actions is almost always going to be Target Lock. If he boosts and rolls he loses all his tokens too, and rolls fewer dice than Phennir at R1.

You can prefer a weaker ship all you like, but the weaker ship is still bad.

Except, he's not a weaker ship: one on one, Phennir will outmanoeuvre Inquisitor. He moves later, he shoots first, and he isn't constantly stressed, so he can access all his white and red manoeuvres, giving him a lot of flexibility. He can k-turn at any time to get behind Inquisitor, Inquisitor can never k-turn unless he skips PTL, which kills all his advantage. The same is true with Phennir against Jax, Omega Leader and Corran. And, because he takes his last action in the combat phase, he can even shoot first, and take his last move after Fel/Vader or Whisper, to roll out of their arc, before they shoot back. He's actually one of the better cheap aces when going up against other aces (especially PS8).

Defensively, he's not that much weaker than Inquisitor either. Inquisitor's best defensive combo is Focus+Evade+Autothrusters, while Phennir has Stealth Device+Evade+Roll+Autothrusters (and higher PS).

You know why? Because you're talking about a Palp aces list. Phennir, Duchess, etc, all go in the same imperial aces archetype. They're just bad at it compared to the standard imperial aces. There's potential for innovation with things like the PS 4 generic in a crack swarm but that has nothing to do with the aces discussion.

I'm not sure, I haven't been able to consider all the possible lists yet with the new generics. Something like Duchess and Friends might start looking good.

 Smacks wrote:
About the only thing I don't agree with you on is that ships which are slightly worse are "garbage tier".

Except, as I keep telling you, this is not a case of ships being slightly worse. Carnor Jax is slightly worse than Soontir Fel. Turr Phennir is utter garbage compared to Soontir Fel. Duchess looks like she's going to be utter garbage. Don't mistake the fact that certain ships are garbage tier for some kind of binary world where there are only tournament winners and garbage.

Okay fine, I'll bite... If Phennir is "garbage tier", then what tier are Lieutenant Lorrir and Kir Kanos?

I'm not mistaking your point of view for a binary perspective. That is literally what you have been articulating. From Fel to Jax = Tournament worthy, Everything else = Garbage.

 Smacks wrote:
If that's really the case, then the Inquisitor isn't much better when one of his actions is almost always going to be Target Lock. If he boosts and rolls he loses all his tokens too, and rolls fewer dice than Phennir at R1.

Action economy is about options. The Inquisitor only gets the same two actions as Turr Phennir if they're boost and barrel roll, but he can take them both before shooting (where Phennir might not be able to get arc with just one action and then loses the second) and has the option to stack focus + evade on defense (with a target lock for offense). Turr Phennir gets no options, you're never getting focus + evade no matter how much you need it.

Except, he's not a weaker ship: one on one, Phennir will outmanoeuvre Inquisitor.

And here's your fundamental misunderstanding about how maneuvering aces work. You will not outmaneuver your opponent 100% of the time, sometimes you're going to be stuck in arc with no options besides taking a pile of defensive tokens and hoping for the best. You are going to face range-3 exchanges with the Inquisitor. You are going to face double taps from Corran. Etc. Fel and the Inquisitor can stack up defensive tokens and often survive being shot at. Turr Phennir has only a single evade token, and that gets you killed. Duchess is in an even worse position with fewer green dice and no autothrusters.

He's actually one of the better cheap aces when going up against other aces (especially PS8).

And is outclassed by Omega Leader in that 1v1 endgame scenario by such a huge margin that you never even consider Phennir.

Okay fine, I'll bite... If Phennir is "garbage tier", then what tier are Lieutenant Lorrir and Kir Kanos?

Garbage tier as well. I keep telling you this so I'm not sure why you're asking again, Turr Phennir is on the same level as garbage ships like Kir Kanos and the Scyk. You overvalue him by a massive margin.

Ahh the math...

On a more serious note, no ship is actual "garbage" each ship can have a certain use and role. i honestly thought the space cow (Hounds tooth) would never have a spot and we now have the party bus thing, same went with the tie shuttle.