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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/13 23:13:54
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Huge Hierodule
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captain bloody fists wrote:Ahh the math...
On a more serious note, no ship is actual "garbage" each ship can have a certain use and role. i honestly thought the space cow (Hounds tooth) would never have a spot and we now have the party bus thing, same went with the tie shuttle.
The Scyck says "Hi".
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Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 02:24:24
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Missionary On A Mission
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Crazy_Carnifex wrote: captain bloody fists wrote:Ahh the math...
On a more serious note, no ship is actual "garbage" each ship can have a certain use and role. i honestly thought the space cow (Hounds tooth) would never have a spot and we now have the party bus thing, same went with the tie shuttle.
The Scyck says "Hi".
have you ever versed 5 of those little buggers in a 100pt game? those things will rip you to shreds
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: 4500pts
Lothlorien: 3500pts
Rohan: 1500pts
Serpent: 2000pts
Modor: 1500pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 02:36:36
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Huge Hierodule
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captain bloody fists wrote: Crazy_Carnifex wrote: captain bloody fists wrote:Ahh the math...
On a more serious note, no ship is actual "garbage" each ship can have a certain use and role. i honestly thought the space cow (Hounds tooth) would never have a spot and we now have the party bus thing, same went with the tie shuttle.
The Scyck says "Hi".
have you ever versed 5 of those little buggers in a 100pt game? those things will rip you to shreds
How? Because yes I have, and no they haven't. What makes them compete with 5 Black Squadron Pilots with Crack Shot plus Howlrunner? Or 7 Bugzapper Z-95's? Or 5 K-fighters? Any of these would be a lot scarier.
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Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 03:16:45
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Missionary On A Mission
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You're assuming decent rolling will win the day. It's a dice game and anything can happen and it did to me when i lost all of my Black squad pilots. Automatically Appended Next Post: This is what annoys me about people that think that some ships are "garbage' compared to others. you're relying on decent to good rolls and expert flying to win the day. you can have a shocker of a day and loose the best ships to "garbage" it happens.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/14 03:20:00
: 4500pts
Lothlorien: 3500pts
Rohan: 1500pts
Serpent: 2000pts
Modor: 1500pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 03:47:13
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Douglas Bader
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captain bloody fists wrote:This is what annoys me about people that think that some ships are "garbage' compared to others. you're relying on decent to good rolls and expert flying to win the day. you can have a shocker of a day and loose the best ships to "garbage" it happens.
The fact that it is a dice game doesn't change the fact that some ships are better at dice than others. Nor does having amazing dice luck in your favor one game despite taking a bad list mean that your list was good. If you play 100 games with each list against a diverse range of opponents the traditional crack swarm is going to win a lot more of them than the Scyks. Automatically Appended Next Post:
That just means you were wrong, not that garbage ships don't exist. Most people figured out pretty quickly that the "party bus" setup was good, or at least a solid mid-tier option. All we're really demonstrating here is that you're bad at evaluating ships.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/14 03:50:15
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 05:05:48
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Huge Hierodule
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captain bloody fists wrote:You're assuming decent rolling will win the day. It's a dice game and anything can happen and it did to me when i lost all of my Black squad pilots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what annoys me about people that think that some ships are "garbage' compared to others. you're relying on decent to good rolls and expert flying to win the day. you can have a shocker of a day and loose the best ships to "garbage" it happens.
Please explain to me, slowly, how those Scycks avoid the problem of just rolling bad.
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Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 07:18:15
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Battleship Captain
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The Scyck says "Hi"
The Scyk - unmodified and unequipped - is just an irritant - it's a slower, more expensive TIE fighter.
Whilst not amazing, it does have its uses, however. Using the Heavy Scyk to field a Heavy Laser Cannon (as people often try once) results in a massive glass cannon which rarely if ever gets two shots off.
The 'control cannons' - Ion, Flechette, or Tractor, however, are decent buys - the Flechette Cannon specifically works rather nicely on a Scyk; yes, it only does one damage but a 3-dice attack rarely does more in practice, and making sure you're stressed and taking away your range 3 green dice is not bad for 2 points.
The Tansarii Point Veteran is also a nice, cheap elite pilot and can work well in a mindlink squad (five veterans with Attani Mindlink can afford to have about half upgraded with Heavy Scyk and Tractor Beam, doing a nice impression of a Crack Swarm at a higher PS).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/14 07:18:31
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 08:45:06
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Douglas Bader
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locarno24 wrote:The 'control cannons' - Ion, Flechette, or Tractor, however, are decent buys - the Flechette Cannon specifically works rather nicely on a Scyk; yes, it only does one damage but a 3-dice attack rarely does more in practice, and making sure you're stressed and taking away your range 3 green dice is not bad for 2 points.
The flechette cannon is garbage because it can't double-stress a target. The ships you need stress against the most (high- PS arc dodgers) are completely immune to flechette cannons because they're already taking stress from PTL. The one point difference compared to the vastly more effective ion cannon is way too small to matter once you consider carrier cost. A Scyk with an ion cannon at 19 points is massively better than a Scyk with a flechette cannon at 18 points. They're both bad, of course, but the flechette Scyk is one of those things that is so obviously terrible that seeing one in a list is immediate proof that the list writer has no idea how the game works.
The Tansarii Point Veteran is also a nice, cheap elite pilot and can work well in a mindlink squad (five veterans with Attani Mindlink can afford to have about half upgraded with Heavy Scyk and Tractor Beam, doing a nice impression of a Crack Swarm at a higher PS).
But why would you take an inferior version of a crack swarm? You don't have crack shot to force damage through with a 2-dice gun, so you're completely dependent on hitting with the tractor beams. And you have one less ship than a crack swarm just to add insult to injury. In fact, if you're willing to settle for a five-ship crack swarm you can take all named TIEs and go up to PS 7-8. Or you can take a 4-ship PS 4 crack swarm (including Howlrunner) and Soontir Fel. This list is "how can I stubbornly force myself to play with a swarm of Scyks", not a viable list idea that you'd ever want to use on its own merits.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 10:28:12
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Missionary On A Mission
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Crazy_Carnifex wrote: captain bloody fists wrote:You're assuming decent rolling will win the day. It's a dice game and anything can happen and it did to me when i lost all of my Black squad pilots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what annoys me about people that think that some ships are "garbage' compared to others. you're relying on decent to good rolls and expert flying to win the day. you can have a shocker of a day and loose the best ships to "garbage" it happens.
Please explain to me, slowly, how those Scycks avoid the problem of just rolling bad.
I was meaning rolling badly against them.... thought it was implied that that was the way I was talking.
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: 4500pts
Lothlorien: 3500pts
Rohan: 1500pts
Serpent: 2000pts
Modor: 1500pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 13:34:34
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Battleship Captain
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The ships you need stress against the most (high-PS arc dodgers) are completely immune to flechette cannons because they're already taking stress from PTL.
Agreed. But then since the Flechette needs to hit, I mostly just consider it the cheapest way to upgrade a scyk to a 3-dice attack. As below; I concur that an Ion cannon is probably more useful, but it depends what you're doing with the other points; moving from flechette weapons to ion weapons can easily cost a ship.
The one point difference compared to the vastly more effective ion cannon is way too small to matter once you consider carrier cost. A Scyk with an ion cannon at 19 points is massively better than a Scyk with a flechette cannon at 18 points. They're both bad, of course, but the flechette Scyk is one of those things that is so obviously terrible that seeing one in a list is immediate proof that the list writer has no idea how the game works.
Actually, the best combination to me is a mix of the two; because the nastiest combination (especially on bigger ships who struggle to avoid "if you hit" effects) is stress token plus ion token(s).
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 14:43:33
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Stealthy Grot Snipa
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It is a nice thought that people are trying to break the mould of carbon-copy ships at every event. I applaud you.
So far:
Fel, Darth, Carnor, Inquisitor are the 4 top dogs that come to mind, in no particular order. If you can ride a ship to the top of the bunch, then competitive eyes will turn.
After much informative, if sometimes crude, debate on this thread it is determined that looking at Duchess as an alternative is not going to cut it. It might be possible that the generics might carry the day, but they have a very large mountain to climb to beat invincible-fel and other in-house champions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 16:20:35
Subject: Re:U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Peregrine wrote:Action economy is about options. The Inquisitor only gets the same two actions as Turr Phennir if they're boost and barrel roll, but he can take them both before shooting (where Phennir might not be able to get arc with just one action and then loses the second) and has the option to stack focus + evade on defense (with a target lock for offense). Turr Phennir gets no options, you're never getting focus + evade no matter how much you need it.
Inquisitor doesn't always get Target Lock either, especially with lower PS, and with that he misses his evade. Phennir can just deploy opposite him, and move half a ship off the line (so he can adjust his range bracket with Barrel Roll). Phenner chooses 2 straight, but because Quiz moves first, Quiz can't Target Lock this turn. The only way they can exchange fire is if Quiz goes 5 straight and Boosts, in which case Phennir can Focus, shoot him and roll back out of range. If Quiz goes 3 and Boost, then Phennir can boost and do the same thing again (shoot him and roll back out of range). If Quiz Barrel-rolls, Phennir Barrel-rolls the opposite way. If Quiz goes Slow, Phennir can choose a straight 4, and then no matter what Quiz does next turn, he will either pass Phennir, or miss his Target Lock and give Phennir a range 1 shot (give or take the boost), probably followed by a dodge. Any move in between (6,4, or 3 ) will just allow Phennir to range step him again with boost, and catch him inside the 5 k-turn. And if he turns away, that just makes it easier for Phennir to T-bone him. Quiz can only k-turn if he misses PTL two turns in a row, in which case he'll just be facing off against a better ship with +1 attack and Stealth Device, and he'll be too close to benefit from Auto-thrusters. Pilot Skill matters. Every turn Phennir will be able to see exactly what Quiz does, and make adjustments to deny Quiz shots. And here's your fundamental misunderstanding about how maneuvering aces work. You will not outmaneuver your opponent 100% of the time.
What you don't seem to understand is Quiz won't be outmanoeuvring Phennir at all. Even if he gets a few lucky shots, 3 agility, stealth device and evade is hard to punch through. The rest of the time Phennir will literally run rings around him. Okay fine, I'll bite... If Phennir is "garbage tier", then what tier are Lieutenant Lorrir and Kir Kanos? I'm not mistaking your point of view for a binary perspective. That is literally what you have been articulating. From Fel to Jax = Tournament worthy, Everything else = Garbage. Garbage tier as well. I keep telling you this so I'm not sure why you're asking again, Turr Phennir is on the same level as garbage ships like Kir Kanos and the Scyk. You overvalue him by a massive margin.
Okay, well I think you've made my point for me. If you judge a PS9 Interceptor with action economy, to be the same as a PS5 ship without an EPT, then you obviously do have a fairly binary outlook on the game, and you seem to massively undervalue ships that emphasize manoeuvring, against ships with quantifiable things like tokens. In any case, I see that we're not going to see eye to eye on this.
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This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2016/09/14 19:44:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/14 17:02:40
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Huge Hierodule
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captain bloody fists wrote: Crazy_Carnifex wrote: captain bloody fists wrote:You're assuming decent rolling will win the day. It's a dice game and anything can happen and it did to me when i lost all of my Black squad pilots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what annoys me about people that think that some ships are "garbage' compared to others. you're relying on decent to good rolls and expert flying to win the day. you can have a shocker of a day and loose the best ships to "garbage" it happens.
Please explain to me, slowly, how those Scycks avoid the problem of just rolling bad.
I was meaning rolling badly against them.... thought it was implied that that was the way I was talking.
Okay, and how then do TIE Fighters not tear you apart when you roll badly against them? Because I still do not understand how Scycks are not terrible.
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Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/15 01:42:09
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Missionary On A Mission
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Crazy_Carnifex wrote: captain bloody fists wrote: Crazy_Carnifex wrote: captain bloody fists wrote:You're assuming decent rolling will win the day. It's a dice game and anything can happen and it did to me when i lost all of my Black squad pilots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what annoys me about people that think that some ships are "garbage' compared to others. you're relying on decent to good rolls and expert flying to win the day. you can have a shocker of a day and loose the best ships to "garbage" it happens.
Please explain to me, slowly, how those Scycks avoid the problem of just rolling bad.
I was meaning rolling badly against them.... thought it was implied that that was the way I was talking.
Okay, and how then do TIE Fighters not tear you apart when you roll badly against them? Because I still do not understand how Scycks are not terrible.
Fine then we agree to disagree...
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: 4500pts
Lothlorien: 3500pts
Rohan: 1500pts
Serpent: 2000pts
Modor: 1500pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/15 04:16:23
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Huge Hierodule
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captain bloody fists wrote: Crazy_Carnifex wrote: captain bloody fists wrote: Crazy_Carnifex wrote: captain bloody fists wrote:You're assuming decent rolling will win the day. It's a dice game and anything can happen and it did to me when i lost all of my Black squad pilots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what annoys me about people that think that some ships are "garbage' compared to others. you're relying on decent to good rolls and expert flying to win the day. you can have a shocker of a day and loose the best ships to "garbage" it happens.
Please explain to me, slowly, how those Scycks avoid the problem of just rolling bad.
I was meaning rolling badly against them.... thought it was implied that that was the way I was talking.
Okay, and how then do TIE Fighters not tear you apart when you roll badly against them? Because I still do not understand how Scycks are not terrible.
Fine then we agree to disagree...
No, please, explain. You start by saying that I am wrong in saying that Scycks are bad, because I am assuming luck. Your argument for why Scycks don't suck then amounts to the Scycks being the ones that get lucky.
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Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/15 05:39:11
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Douglas Bader
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Crazy_Carnifex wrote:No, please, explain. You start by saying that I am wrong in saying that Scycks are bad, because I am assuming luck. Your argument for why Scycks don't suck then amounts to the Scycks being the ones that get lucky.
I think the answer here is "I can't defend my argument but I have an emotional problem with the idea that there are unplayable ships so I'm going to leave the thread with 'let's agree to disagree' instead of justifying my position". Automatically Appended Next Post: Smacks wrote:What you don't seem to understand is Quiz won't be outmanoeuvring Phennir at all. Even if he gets a few lucky shots, 3 agility, stealth device and evade is hard to punch through. The rest of the time Phennir will literally run rings around him.
Sorry, but you're just demonstrating you don't really understand the game very well. Ships like Phennir get outmaneuvered by lower- PS ships all the time. The only time you're dodging all arcs every turn is when you have a significant skill advantage over a weak opponent. Against a good player you're going to be taking fire sometimes, especially with the Inqusitor and his ability to clear stress on 1-speed maneuvers and stay at long range (where his arc covers the most area). The difference between a good arc dodger and a bad arc dodger is what happens when you have to roll those green dice and see what happens. A ship like Fel or Corran can stack up defensive abilities when they fail to dodge the necessary arcs and is virtually impossible for 1-2 ships to kill. Fel with Palpatine in support is just plain immune to 3-dice attacks, Corran regenerates whatever damage you do on the occasional turn when you get a shot at all, etc. But Phennir has no token stacking to save him. When he fails to arc dodge successfully he has an evade token and that's it before he's rolling unmodified green dice and hoping for an above-average number of evades.
And Duchess has the same problem. At PS 10 with maneuvering actions you will dodge some arcs and avoid some damage. But when you inevitably find yourself in a situation where you can't get out of arc you have pathetic defense and a dead "ace".
If you judge a PS9 Interceptor with action economy, to be the same as a PS5 ship without an EPT, then you obviously do have a fairly binary outlook on the game
Obviously they aren't exactly the same, but they're close enough for all relevant purposes. Neither one is viable in serious lists, neither one is even close to being viable, so why does it matter which one is slightly less terrible? There is plenty of non-binary evaluation involving ships which aren't terrible. For example, is Carnor Jax a mid-tier control tool or (as suggested by the latest nationals result) a top-tier Palp aces option? How far does Corran's weakness to u-boats bump him down in the tiers in the current torpedo-heavy metagame? Is +1 PS on new-Poe worth +2 points or should you just take VI on PS 8 Poe (or not take Poe at all, because of plasma torps)?
The issue here is not my "binary" outlook on the game, it's that you massively overvalue a garbage-tier ship and insist that I'm ignoring the middle ground if I don't agree with your evaluation.
and you seem to massively undervalue ships that emphasize manoeuvring, against ships with quantifiable things like tokens.
The point you're missing here is that Phennir (like Duchess) is not exceptionally good at maneuvering. He has worse maneuvering ability than Soontir Fel in addition to the quantifiable differences. The only difference between Fel and Phennir is that you trade away significantly more than 4 points worth of action economy to save 4 points in cost.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/15 05:55:21
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/15 09:27:14
Subject: Re:U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Missionary On A Mission
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Stuff it. I was going to do a detailed respone but I really can't be bothered replying. Imo it's not a completely useless ship and frankly I'll find a spot for them in my scum list's when I expand my fleet further.
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: 4500pts
Lothlorien: 3500pts
Rohan: 1500pts
Serpent: 2000pts
Modor: 1500pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/15 09:34:50
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Peregrine wrote:Sorry, but you're just demonstrating you don't really understand the game very well.
Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I don't understand the game. You're the one who keeps wandering into other peoples' arcs... maybe you don't understand the game  (joking) Ships like Phennir get outmaneuvered by lower-PS ships all the time.
If by "all the time" you mean "every day" then probably. If you mean "every turn" then no. Higher PS ships like Fel and Vader (and Phennir), are incredibly difficult to pin down without turrets. Most turns the higher PS ship is going to be the aggressor and have a big advantage. The easiest way to stop them is probably to bump them, in which case no one gets to stack tokens. In that situation Phennir is probably the better ship, as he still has the opportunity to roll away if he can find a target, Fel and Vader are just dead in the water. Against a good player you're going to be taking fire sometimes, especially with the Inqusitor and his ability to clear stress on 1-speed maneuvers and stay at long range (where his arc covers the most area).
Quiz is quite predictable with those one speed turns, Phennir can turn at any speed because he isn't lumbered with a stress token every turn. Maybe if Phennir is hunting down something else, then Quiz will be able to get a shot (2v1), but 1v1 Phennir wins. A ship like Fel or Corran can stack up defensive abilities when they fail to dodge the necessary arcs ... Phennir has no token stacking to save him. When he fails to arc dodge successfully he has an evade token and that's it before he's rolling unmodified green dice.
Your use of persuasive language is quite interesting. When you speak about Fel you make it sound like he has a big pancake stack of tokens, but when you mention Phennir he "only" has one "pathetic" evade token which isn't worth the cardboard it's printed on  . In reality, Phennir also has Stealth Device and Autothrusters (just like Fel), the only difference between them (defensively) is 1 focus token, which is significant, but you make it sound like Phennir will blow up in one hit. In reality a Focused Millennium Falcon has an expected damage output of 0.07% against him. I've played quite a lot of games with him now, and survivability has never been a problem. Honestly, his only real problem is a slight lack of fire-power, which makes him feel a bit A-wing, but otherwise he's quite usable. And Duchess has the same problem. At PS 10 with maneuvering actions you will dodge some arcs and avoid some damage. But when you inevitably find yourself in a situation where you can't get out of arc you have pathetic defense and a dead "ace".
Well I guess you get what you pay for. It doesn't really bother me having a dead ace, so long as she did her job. I can easily see Duchess working well as something like a flanker in a swarm build. She's fast enough and powerful enough to do that job and be annoying against ships like Whisper, and with what you save you can squeeze in another Tie Fighter. The point you're missing here is that Phennir (like Duchess) is not exceptionally good at maneuvering. He has worse maneuvering ability than Soontir Fel in addition to the quantifiable differences. The only difference between Fel and Phennir is that you trade away significantly more than 4 points worth of action economy to save 4 points in cost.
There are pros and cons with the manoeuvring, Phennir can do lots of things that Fel can't. For example, he can manoeuvre after he gets bumped, he can move last when he has initiative, he can always do white and red manoeuvres, he can shoot at one range and defend at another, and he doesn't need to keep ships in his arc when he dodges, as he shoots before moving. He's quite different to Fel, but all things considered I'd say he's only slightly worse at manoeuvring, it's not usually an issue. Fel can also Focus when defending, but both ships are quite durable, so again I'd say he's slightly worse at defending, but again it's not usually an issue. I can easily get through a game without either of those things bothering me. What is very noticeable, every single turn, is that Phennir doesn't get the Focus token for shooting. That's the major difference, and Fel definitely is worth the extra 4 points for that. But that doesn't make Phennir "garbage", he's actually a pretty awesome ship once you get used to him. He's really only smidge away from being a top ace, all he needs is a decent platform for something like Fleet Officer, and he'd be in the top tier.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/09/15 09:50:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/15 12:46:51
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Battleship Captain
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In reality, Phennir also has Stealth Device and Autothrusters (just like Fel), the only difference between them (defensively) is 1 focus token, which is significant, but you make it sound like Phennir will blow up in one hit.
Whilst I agree Phennir can get used, and used well - two observations:
1) Fel has Focus, Focus, Evade (most of the time) to Phennir's Focus - that's a two-token difference. Yes, Fel might use a token when shooting, but has the option not to and it definitely makes a difference if you're being shot at by multiple attackers at once*.
2) TIE interceptors usually do feel like they blow up in one hit. With vulnerability to criticals right from the off, and the first hit stripping the stealth device as well as applying damage, the difference between a miss and a glancing hit is much more than a glancing hit and a serious hit.
I still think Turr Phennir is fun to use, and I don't think he's bad. He's the bloody road runner with 'meep! meep! pa-choww!!!" tendancy to shoot you then dart out of arc. But I just wanted to poke the points above.
* I realise that "being shot at by multiple attackers at once" essentially means "screwed up" for a TIE interceptor...
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/16 04:32:20
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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I can't be the only one who looks at Kylo Ren's shuttle and the U-Wing and doesn't think "Hey I could put X and Y to support a squadron", but instead thinks "What's the best angle to ram this thing down my enemy's throat?".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/16 05:14:41
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Douglas Bader
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Smacks wrote:If by "all the time" you mean "every day" then probably. If you mean "every turn" then no. Higher PS ships like Fel and Vader (and Phennir), are incredibly difficult to pin down without turrets. Most turns the higher PS ship is going to be the aggressor and have a big advantage.
No, of course you aren't going to be in arc every turn. You're also not going to have a target in arc every turn as ships like Fel would usually prefer to break off and give nobody a shot than to take an exchange of shots. But you should expect to get shot at every game, probably by high-peak-damage ships like u-boats and Corran. And that means you need token-stacking like Fel to stay alive.
In reality a Focused Millennium Falcon has an expected damage output of 0.07% against him.
Except a focused 3-dice turret is probably the best-case scenario for getting shot at. Phennir with one evade token and stealth takes 1.27 damage vs. a u-boat and Fel takes 0.51. If you get autothrusters Phennir takes 0.59 while Fel takes 0.13. That focus token makes a huge difference against the big attacks where you need flawless dice to stay alive. And poor Duchess is taking 1.94 damage against the u-boat, which should be a rather terrifying fact.
PS: god help you if you have to face Dengaroo with Phennir and his single defensive action.
What is very noticeable, every single turn, is that Phennir doesn't get the Focus token for shooting. That's the major difference, and Fel definitely is worth the extra 4 points for that. But that doesn't make Phennir "garbage", he's actually a pretty awesome ship once you get used to him. He's really only smidge away from being a top ace, all he needs is a decent platform for something like Fleet Officer, and he'd be in the top tier.
And this is why Phennir is garbage-tier, not "almost good". To get Phennir to perform at even close to Fel's level you have to invest way more than 4 points in support (like the fleet officer plan). Spending more than 4 points to save 4 points is how you lose games. And because, unlike ships like Carnor Jax and their potential niche roles, Phennir is just a worse version of a good ship that makes him garbage-tier. You can justify taking mid-tier ships that have the right role. You can't justify taking ships that are just plain worse than the better option. And I'd say "you would never take this" a pretty good definition of garbage-tier.
As for Duchess, she's stuck with the same problem. She wants to be Soontir Fel at a lower point cost, but you lose way more in power than you save in point cost. She's a bad Fel copy, and that makes her garbage tier. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kepora wrote:I can't be the only one who looks at Kylo Ren's shuttle and the U-Wing and doesn't think "Hey I could put X and Y to support a squadron", but instead thinks "What's the best angle to ram this thing down my enemy's throat?".
You're not. I was watching a game of Whisper + 2x super-shuttle (naked generics) and it was brutally effective. Three four-dice guns, tons of HP on the meatshields, and a ton of damage from just throwing the shuttles at a target and seeing what happens. If you joust a super-shuttle you are going to pay for it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/16 05:16:09
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/16 06:53:30
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook
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Interesting debate on ship merits. Anyone had any luck with Phennir and Juke?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/16 07:09:36
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Battleship Captain
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I can't be the only one who looks at Kylo Ren's shuttle and the U-Wing and doesn't think "Hey I could put X and Y to support a squadron", but instead thinks "What's the best angle to ram this thing down my enemy's throat?".
Definitely not. Especialy since the highest PS pilot (Kylo Ren) actively punishes an opponent for shooting at it, and Imperials have quite a few crew to make that lesson stick (Rebel Captive, for example). Unlike a Lambda, which can work as just a caddy for Palpatine or officer cards, the Upsilon is so expensive (and so well armed) that you kind of have to use it as your main punch; it can't afford to 'just be a support unit'.
The U-wing - especially with Cassian Andor as a combination intelligence agent/navigator (and then some!) - seems designed specifically to get in people's way as a blocker, so...yeah. Annoy away. Bonus points for Ion Projector or Anti-Pursuit Lasers.
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Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/17 00:09:47
Subject: U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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locarno24 wrote:I can't be the only one who looks at Kylo Ren's shuttle and the U-Wing and doesn't think "Hey I could put X and Y to support a squadron", but instead thinks "What's the best angle to ram this thing down my enemy's throat?".
Definitely not. Especialy since the highest PS pilot (Kylo Ren) actively punishes an opponent for shooting at it, and Imperials have quite a few crew to make that lesson stick (Rebel Captive, for example). Unlike a Lambda, which can work as just a caddy for Palpatine or officer cards, the Upsilon is so expensive (and so well armed) that you kind of have to use it as your main punch; it can't afford to 'just be a support unit'.
The U-wing - especially with Cassian Andor as a combination intelligence agent/navigator (and then some!) - seems designed specifically to get in people's way as a blocker, so...yeah. Annoy away. Bonus points for Ion Projector or Anti-Pursuit Lasers.
Holy gak, Ion Projectors with multiple U-Wings could be a *massive* dick move. You're practically forcing your opponent to avoid anything that could result in a head-on charge less they risk getting ionized, especially with how the U-Wing can flip around so easily.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/18 07:25:22
Subject: Re:U Wing and TIE Striker preview
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Peregrine wrote: Smacks wrote:If that's really the case, then the Inquisitor isn't much better when one of his actions is almost always going to be Target Lock. If he boosts and rolls he loses all his tokens too, and rolls fewer dice than Phennir at R1.
Action economy is about options. The Inquisitor only gets the same two actions as Turr Phennir if they're boost and barrel roll, but he can take them both before shooting (where Phennir might not be able to get arc with just one action and then loses the second) and has the option to stack focus + evade on defense (with a target lock for offense). Turr Phennir gets no options, you're never getting focus + evade no matter how much you need it.
Except, he's not a weaker ship: one on one, Phennir will outmanoeuvre Inquisitor.
And here's your fundamental misunderstanding about how maneuvering aces work. You will not outmaneuver your opponent 100% of the time, sometimes you're going to be stuck in arc with no options besides taking a pile of defensive tokens and hoping for the best. You are going to face range-3 exchanges with the Inquisitor. You are going to face double taps from Corran. Etc. Fel and the Inquisitor can stack up defensive tokens and often survive being shot at. Turr Phennir has only a single evade token, and that gets you killed. Duchess is in an even worse position with fewer green dice and no autothrusters.
He's actually one of the better cheap aces when going up against other aces (especially PS8).
And is outclassed by Omega Leader in that 1v1 endgame scenario by such a huge margin that you never even consider Phennir.
Okay fine, I'll bite... If Phennir is "garbage tier", then what tier are Lieutenant Lorrir and Kir Kanos?
Garbage tier as well. I keep telling you this so I'm not sure why you're asking again, Turr Phennir is on the same level as garbage ships like Kir Kanos and the Scyk. You overvalue him by a massive margin.
If you didn't use the word "garbage" to describe everything that isn't top tier competitive you'd probably avoid most of these pointless debates.
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