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How is Forbidden Stars as a game? I'm wondering if I should pick it up while it might be available.

Mitochondria wrote:
Saw a 12 year old eyeing 40k as I set up for an X-Wing tournament on Saturday.

Mom was looking anxiously at the crowd.

Got to talking. She said the boy was interested in gaming 40k.

I asked her how much she was going to spend. She asks me how much for a normal game? I told her to get on the table with 1500 to 2000 points would be $250 to $600.

She blanched.

I asked her if he like Star Wars and she said yes, he likes it quite a bit.

Got the kid over, set up a quick demo.

Told mom it would only take about $100 to get a good force going and that the game was well supported and well made.

They left with the core set. Win.

that's a tragedy. Little dude could have gotten magnificient miniatures that he could have painted and maybe he would eventually have turned into an artist. Instead, he got gakky prepainted models who have no value besides being gaming pieces.

 streetsamurai wrote:


that's a tragedy. Little dude could have gotten magnificient miniatures that he could have painted and maybe he would eventually have turned into an artist. Instead, he got gakky prepainted models who have no value besides being gaming pieces.

A 12 year old is likely to change what they like on a whim though. I can understand the parent not wanting to spend that much money when they might not have the attention span to last more than a couple of days. Also that was the cost for one army! It's GWs problem completely.

As said previously, a starter pack for 40k is not that much more expensive than a starter pack for Xwing. Agreed that the cost of some miniatures by GW is outrageous, but so is the cost of some of these xwing models. In fact, I'd even say that they are outGWing GW in term of the customer.

 Whirlwind wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:


that's a tragedy. Little dude could have gotten magnificient miniatures that he could have painted and maybe he would eventually have turned into an artist. Instead, he got gakky prepainted models who have no value besides being gaming pieces.

A 12 year old is likely to change what they like on a whim though. I can understand the parent not wanting to spend that much money when they might not have the attention span to last more than a couple of days. Also that was the cost for one army! It's GWs problem completely.

I can build you a 40k army for half of what the original person stated($250 to get started is ridiculous).

It's called the "Start Collecting" sets and a Codex. Getting the main rule book is a bit of a challenge, but if you find someone who bought something like multiples of Death Masque or Kill Team for the savings part? You can pick up a small version of the rulebook on the cheap. Same goes for anyone who picked up multiple Deathstorms or Stormclaw sets.

I've still got multiples of the old Dark Angels covered book sitting around my house from the Stormclaw sets my brother split with locals for the Ork half. He couldn't give those things away.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:


that's a tragedy. Little dude could have gotten magnificient miniatures that he could have painted and maybe he would eventually have turned into an artist. Instead, he got gakky prepainted models who have no value besides being gaming pieces.

A 12 year old is likely to change what they like on a whim though. I can understand the parent not wanting to spend that much money when they might not have the attention span to last more than a couple of days. Also that was the cost for one army! It's GWs problem completely.

I can build you a 40k army for half of what the original person stated($250 to get started is ridiculous).

I believe that was for 1500pts, not just enough to play? $125 for 1500pts at RRP is a challenge I'd like to see you complete.

It's called the "Start Collecting" sets and a Codex. Getting the main rule book is a bit of a challenge, but if you find someone who bought something like multiples of Death Masque or Kill Team for the savings part? You can pick up a small version of the rulebook on the cheap. Same goes for anyone who picked up multiple Deathstorms or Stormclaw sets.

I've still got multiples of the old Dark Angels covered book sitting around my house from the Stormclaw sets my brother split with locals for the Ork half. He couldn't give those things away.

Well, I'll trump that! I'll break into the nearest FLGS in the dead of night, and steal all the X Wing I want! Therefore X Wing is free to play!

My point being, use RRP for a comparison (£40 gets you KT with a mini book) not anecdotal suggestions, because people can always tell a story of that time they saved money on that thing, and it works both ways. (I just picked up a brand new Guild Ball team for almost half RRP, it would be disingenuous of me to argue relative cost based on that one experience.)

It's a shame that FFG lost the license, but let's face facts - GW was probably getting pretty threatened by their success. Which speaks more about GW than FFG, really.

It's a bummer, as I really like just about everything that FFG has put out lately. Right now I will play Armada over BFG, and I have been a fan of BFG since the premier. I debated long and hard over waiting for a BFG re-release (if only for easier access to ships- I find the old rules just fine) and getting Armada, which the recent MiniatureMarket sale tipped me in favor of.

Coming as a fan of 40K since approx. 2nd edition (nearing 20 years for me), I think I would actually really love to see a (hypothetical, obviously) 40k universe miniatures game put out by FFG, before one produced by modern GW - superfluous FFG cardboard tokens/dice/dials all over the table be damned.

 Azreal13 wrote:

I believe that was for 1500pts, not just enough to play? $125 for 1500pts at RRP is a challenge I'd like to see you complete.

what's the usual game of xwing as far as points go? I mean no point in comparing starter set xwing vs full 1500 40k army unless said starter gives you enough points

 streetsamurai wrote:
As said previously, a starter pack for 40k is not that much more expensive than a starter pack for Xwing. Agreed that the cost of some miniatures by GW is outrageous, but so is the cost of some of these xwing models. In fact, I'd even say that they are outGWing GW in term of the customer.

As a parent who doesn't really understand how some of my sons games works and he want's something, as the parent buying something, I go how much is this for Magic, he would say about $140, then i would say you want this video game as well? He would say Yes so I get him the video game. A parent doesn't care if the cheaper alternative is actually more expensive mini wise, we look at how much something will cost total wise.

So I can see where the Mom would buy the X-wing kit. To add more to X-wing is still cheaper than adding in more to 40K. So of course X-wing seems the better deal. If GW doesn't want to compete with this that is there problem. It's the parents who only see the final picture which is the final price. Quality or price per mini be damned, it's the final price that matters. After all if you are compelling you are getting less with X-wing I can say well you can go to the dollar store and get 100X more by buying there.

After all $100 box sets (Canadian prices) is still $100 compared to $50 for X-wing. Also if the kid wants to expand it's only $20 or so not compared to $50 in a few cases and almost always around $100 or more. So in the end when you don't care (usually the parent) plastic toys is plastic toys and plastic toys can be bought at the dollar store way cheaper or better toys at Walmart/Toys are Us for better quality than what GW is putting out.

Enosh - it's's easy to make enjoyable 100pt squadrons with 5 ships or less. Not optimized in the upgrade card aspect, of course, but still gives a full experience. I regularly field squadrons of 3-4 small ships at my buddy's house, all bought at 15 bucks each online. Large ships obviously add to the cost, just like a 40k tank/dread would add to the cost of a army using just infantry. We have tons of fun, without even worrying about the perfect upgrades, just fun ones.

You can easily add just a couple of ships for each side to a starter and have tons of fun, regardless of which ships are chosen, as long as each side is equal in points, of course.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:
As the manager of an FLGS, I would be annoyed if a customer was making sales pitches. That's my job! If a customer wants to join in a conversation and help me sell something that I'm already selling, fine - but at that stage it's more like butting in and trying to do the job of a staff member.

That's awesome that you have a sales process. Too many stores have none. Or only the owner and manager have one and the employees go into "I don't care" mode the second that person leaves. I've definitely seen parents of early teens ask about 40k and the employee who can't be bothered to stop watching youtube videos sort of points at the section and that's it. If not for a couple of guys playing the game, she'd have had no idea what to get.

In this case, the helpful person steered her towards a product that met her needs in a more efficient manner.

As for this great tragedy that a young person wasn't introduced to the hobby of painting miniatures, I would consider the real tragedy being someone's first exposure to painting miniatures being in the context of a cash extraction scheme passed off as a hobby. A set of simple rules like Song of Blades & Heroes, Dragon Rampant or Open Combat and a bunch of reaper bones miniatures would be a far, far better solution for a pre-teen's first foray into miniature hobbying. The whole point of GW's offerings is to get as much cash out of parents of early teens before they discover girls and quit. If anyone ends up becoming a true believer and buys no matter what, then GW has found another of the core audience they are aiming for.

This is another reason why the FFG licensing agreement ending is bad for GW. FFG's game appealed to people who may not be looking for the collect-paint-play approach of 40k or AoS. And GW's board game offerings tend to be still in that category while FFG's 40k and Old World offerings were not.

Enosh wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

I believe that was for 1500pts, not just enough to play? $125 for 1500pts at RRP is a challenge I'd like to see you complete.

what's the usual game of xwing as far as points go? I mean no point in comparing starter set xwing vs full 1500 40k army unless said starter gives you enough points

No, but I priced up the world championship winner's list the last time this topic came up, and ships plus cost of upgrades not included in those ships, and even that came to around $160, including shipping and based on live eBay auctions for the singles.

I'd suggest it's likely impossible to construct a tournament winning list for 40K for even close to that.

From a cost to play standpoint, X Wing beats 40K at all levels.

Davor wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
As said previously, a starter pack for 40k is not that much more expensive than a starter pack for Xwing. Agreed that the cost of some miniatures by GW is outrageous, but so is the cost of some of these xwing models. In fact, I'd even say that they are outGWing GW in term of the customer.

As a parent who doesn't really understand how some of my sons games works and he want's something, as the parent buying something, I go how much is this for Magic, he would say about $140, then i would say you want this video game as well? He would say Yes so I get him the video game. A parent doesn't care if the cheaper alternative is actually more expensive mini wise, we look at how much something will cost total wise.

So I can see where the Mom would buy the X-wing kit. To add more to X-wing is still cheaper than adding in more to 40K. So of course X-wing seems the better deal. If GW doesn't want to compete with this that is there problem. It's the parents who only see the final picture which is the final price. Quality or price per mini be damned, it's the final price that matters. After all if you are compelling you are getting less with X-wing I can say well you can go to the dollar store and get 100X more by buying there.

After all $100 box sets (Canadian prices) is still $100 compared to $50 for X-wing. Also if the kid wants to expand it's only $20 or so not compared to $50 in a few cases and almost always around $100 or more. So in the end when you don't care (usually the parent) plastic toys is plastic toys and plastic toys can be bought at the dollar store way cheaper or better toys at Walmart/Toys are Us for better quality than what GW is putting out.

That`s good parenting right there - get the cheapest stuff out of all alternatives, doesn`t matter whatever the feth it is. Video games, card games, toys, miniatures, drawing and painting supplies, a football - everything`s the same crap, huh?
I`d asume one should care, what their child is more into, as hobbies tend to help the kid grow, explore the world, get new friends, discover their affections.

@frozenwastes
Yep, GW is evil, it`s there to get your money, the damn company! Unlike any other producer on the market!

There's a clear delineation between concentrating on making a product people want to buy, and trying to manipulate people into spending money.

GW are definitely guilty of erring towards the latter in recent years, to the extent of not even putting much effort into the quality.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Whirlwind wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:


that's a tragedy. Little dude could have gotten magnificient miniatures that he could have painted and maybe he would eventually have turned into an artist. Instead, he got gakky prepainted models who have no value besides being gaming pieces.

A 12 year old is likely to change what they like on a whim though. I can understand the parent not wanting to spend that much money when they might not have the attention span to last more than a couple of days. Also that was the cost for one army! It's GWs problem completely.

I can build you a 40k army for half of what the original person stated($250 to get started is ridiculous).

It's called the "Start Collecting" sets and a Codex. Getting the main rule book is a bit of a challenge, but if you find someone who bought something like multiples of Death Masque or Kill Team for the savings part? You can pick up a small version of the rulebook on the cheap. Same goes for anyone who picked up multiple Deathstorms or Stormclaw sets.

I've still got multiples of the old Dark Angels covered book sitting around my house from the Stormclaw sets my brother split with locals for the Ork half. He couldn't give those things away.

The problem is that so often those just starting into the hobby don't know enough of the ins and outs of the hobby to make price savvy purchases. The start collecting sets while they're overall good they aren't all equal. For example you practically need 3 IG sets to get to the same point other armies are at after one set. Finding someone within the community to help them get started, while being someone on the outside looking in probably doesn't even cross their minds because they simply don't know that some book from some set is a viable alternative in cheap abundance. Stores whether it is a local store or a GW have more incentive to push the least price savvy choices and don't always have the wisdom to help build a local community.

The old champions list was 5 models for $160 using discount ebay retailers? So over $31 a model?

I could buy three dark vengeance dark angel sets on ebay for under $160. That would give me 30 marines, 15 terminators, nine bikes, multiple librarians, captains, and possibly chaplains. This can easily be over 1800 points if equipped with all plasma and kitted out sgts and hq's.

Or one could buy one assault on black reach marine set, and two dark vengeance sets. Then you'd have dreadnoughts too.

For a dark angel force, you have multiple combat squads, heavies, the librarian conclave, etc. I've played that list before and done decent.

So again... price is a bad argument for xwing.

 455_PWR wrote:
The old champions list was 5 models for $160 using discount ebay retailers? So over $31 a model?

No, reread Azreal13's post. Ebay was used only for pricing the individual cards that were needed beyond the models. Models were still fuil retail.

 455_PWR wrote:
The old champions list was 5 models for $160 using discount ebay retailers? So over $31 a model?

I assume this is in response to me, despite the lack of quotes and significant intervening time and other comments.

No, full RRP for the ships, eBay BIN for the singles.

The point wasn't how many models one can buy for the money, the point was that X Wing is cheaper to play at any given level, otherwise we'll just throw a Reaper Bones grenade into the discussion and make everyone look stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You'd then have to put a compelling argument forward for a list made with all that DV gak that would win a premium tournament too.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

@frozenwastes
Yep, GW is evil, it`s there to get your money, the damn company! Unlike any other producer on the market!

Never said GW is evil, that's all you misrepresenting things. GW's offerings though, are the most compromised by their commercial interests. Their offerings are also really unsuitable for an early teen wanting to see if they are interested in miniature painting. GW intentionally front loads the cost of getting into their games in order to maximize the revenue they get from someone before they quit. They've made some moves to making things more accessible, but their most popular product line is still massively front loaded. Kill Team is a step in the right direction, but doesn't it still require getting codex books if you want to do anything other than tactical squad vs firewarriors?

GW's products are a terrible way to start a new person in the hobby as their approach is all about high margin cash extraction rather than value.

 455_PWR wrote:
The old champions list was 5 models for $160 using discount ebay retailers? So over $31 a model?

I could buy three dark vengeance dark angel sets on ebay for under $160. That would give me 30 marines, 15 terminators, nine bikes, multiple librarians, captains, and possibly chaplains. This can easily be over 1800 points if equipped with all plasma and kitted out sgts and hq's.

Or one could buy one assault on black reach marine set, and two dark vengeance sets. Then you'd have dreadnoughts too.

For a dark angel force, you have multiple combat squads, heavies, the librarian conclave, etc. I've played that list before and done decent.

So again... price is a bad argument for xwing.

Your comparison is of the apples to basketballs. X-wing ships are typically $15 for the vast majority at full price and you're trying to compare that to a starter set at ebay prices. The fact of the matter is that for $160 plus tax you can buy the starter set and 4-8 boosters chosen from ANY normal play ships from ANY faction for use in normal games. For that same price in 40k, you get a single dark vengence starter set that forces you to play one of two forces that you have no choice over ($110) and the cheapest codex for ONE of the two factions ($49) at retail. With X-wing, you have a collection that is probably 2x the standard 100pt total without even including upgrades giving you lots of room to customize your force and vary your playstyle from game to game. With 40k, (barring using the utterly stupid unbound rules), you have one set of figs that even if you use every single figure doesn't even total up to the standard 1,500pt total you'd need to play a standard game and that is assuming you actually WANT to play DA or chaos.. you're gak out of luck if you don't. Now you can try to twist the argument (and some folks here have) by throwing in ebay prices or bitz stores or trading with others or cherry picking 40k draigowing style lists or doing vast excel spreadsheets to figure out which 40k boxed set offers the biggest value but that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about the typical expected buyin for the two games for the average noob person walking into a store. One choice gives you pretty much everything you need and then some with full choice for the vast majority of the purchase... and the other gives you no choice beyond choosing one of the two premade forces and you still don't even have enough to play a standard game.

Comparing the buyin prices between the two and somehow coming up with 40k as anything but the clear loser boggles the mind. Does the 40k starter set and more recent getting started boxes give you a good value? Absoutely... but it doesn't change the fact that if you want REAL choice in what your army has then your 1500pt force will typically cost you $500+ for a single faction and result in you fielding every fig unless you play DA or Chaos... at that price, you could buy probably one of every x-wing ship ever produced for every faction in the normal game. I'm certainly no x-wing or ffg white knight (I no longer play the former and can't stand that the latter is copying every douche move GW pioneered in order) but there simply is NO comparison between the two buyins.

Any chance that Disney may had their hand in it..??

I mean Warhammer 40,000 is very close to star wars in many ways... And if Fantasy Flight had to make a choice... Well they made the right one..

FFG was already taking pre-orders for organized play kits that extend past when the agreement ends, so I'm guessing it was GW's decision.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
As said previously, a starter pack for 40k is not that much more expensive than a starter pack for Xwing. Agreed that the cost of some miniatures by GW is outrageous, but so is the cost of some of these xwing models. In fact, I'd even say that they are outGWing GW in term of the customer.

As a parent who doesn't really understand how some of my sons games works and he want's something, as the parent buying something, I go how much is this for Magic, he would say about $140, then i would say you want this video game as well? He would say Yes so I get him the video game. A parent doesn't care if the cheaper alternative is actually more expensive mini wise, we look at how much something will cost total wise.

So I can see where the Mom would buy the X-wing kit. To add more to X-wing is still cheaper than adding in more to 40K. So of course X-wing seems the better deal. If GW doesn't want to compete with this that is there problem. It's the parents who only see the final picture which is the final price. Quality or price per mini be damned, it's the final price that matters. After all if you are compelling you are getting less with X-wing I can say well you can go to the dollar store and get 100X more by buying there.

After all $100 box sets (Canadian prices) is still $100 compared to $50 for X-wing. Also if the kid wants to expand it's only $20 or so not compared to $50 in a few cases and almost always around $100 or more. So in the end when you don't care (usually the parent) plastic toys is plastic toys and plastic toys can be bought at the dollar store way cheaper or better toys at Walmart/Toys are Us for better quality than what GW is putting out.

That`s good parenting right there - get the cheapest stuff out of all alternatives, doesn`t matter whatever the feth it is. Video games, card games, toys, miniatures, drawing and painting supplies, a football - everything`s the same crap, huh?
I`d asume one should care, what their child is more into, as hobbies tend to help the kid grow, explore the world, get new friends, discover their affections.

@frozenwastes
Yep, GW is evil, it`s there to get your money, the damn company! Unlike any other producer on the market!

Bad parenting eh? So I have to go through all the details. Why would I as a parent buy some few hundreds of dollars on magic cards that I know my son will play for a few minutes, once opened not even used again? At least I know he will have many hours worth on his video game. You would think as a parent I made him choose and I explained to him you want to spend hundreds of dollars for a few minutes of fun and then not play with them because he didn't get the cards he wanted or do you want a video game that you will get weeks and months or more of enjoyment? So of course he took the video game when I explained it that way.

It's easy when it's not your money to buy what ever, but when he had to make the decision he chose what he wanted. You would think that teaching the value of a dollar.

Bad parenting? My arse. But as usual, faceless person on the internet with anonymity can easily make comments. I guess you can keep feeling you are better than me.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

Davor wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
As said previously, a starter pack for 40k is not that much more expensive than a starter pack for Xwing. Agreed that the cost of some miniatures by GW is outrageous, but so is the cost of some of these xwing models. In fact, I'd even say that they are outGWing GW in term of the customer.

As a parent who doesn't really understand how some of my sons games works and he want's something, as the parent buying something, I go how much is this for Magic, he would say about $140, then i would say you want this video game as well? He would say Yes so I get him the video game. A parent doesn't care if the cheaper alternative is actually more expensive mini wise, we look at how much something will cost total wise.

So I can see where the Mom would buy the X-wing kit. To add more to X-wing is still cheaper than adding in more to 40K. So of course X-wing seems the better deal. If GW doesn't want to compete with this that is there problem. It's the parents who only see the final picture which is the final price. Quality or price per mini be damned, it's the final price that matters. After all if you are compelling you are getting less with X-wing I can say well you can go to the dollar store and get 100X more by buying there.

After all $100 box sets (Canadian prices) is still $100 compared to $50 for X-wing. Also if the kid wants to expand it's only $20 or so not compared to $50 in a few cases and almost always around $100 or more. So in the end when you don't care (usually the parent) plastic toys is plastic toys and plastic toys can be bought at the dollar store way cheaper or better toys at Walmart/Toys are Us for better quality than what GW is putting out.

That`s good parenting right there - get the cheapest stuff out of all alternatives, doesn`t matter whatever the feth it is. Video games, card games, toys, miniatures, drawing and painting supplies, a football - everything`s the same crap, huh?
I`d asume one should care, what their child is more into, as hobbies tend to help the kid grow, explore the world, get new friends, discover their affections.

@frozenwastes
Yep, GW is evil, it`s there to get your money, the damn company! Unlike any other producer on the market!

You're funny. As a parent, it's not so much buy the cheapest thing but rather the realization that my kid will likely drop their interest in a relatively short period of time. Everyone parents differently and if your style is to acquiesce to your child's every desire, some would call that permissive parenting of the highest/worst order. I grew up in generational poverty and while I am able to provide a much, much higher standard of living for my daughter, she is not and will not be that spoiled kid that accumulates piles of garbage that she plays with once and then puts on a shelf. If she's willing to save her own allowance or do extra house-hold chores to accumulate enough of her own money to purchase nonessential goods, then she may spend her money however she likes. That said, we'll still have a conversation about saving money.

There's more to parenting than someone being a cheapskate. Not knowing the particulars of the lady in question's finances, I'm not willing to cast aspersions onto her parenting; it could be that she let her child talk her into going into the store prepared to spend what she thought to be a reasonable amount on their desired interest but finding out the average price for a workable force she may have been unable to purchase so large amount. Sure, the person who helped her could have had an overarching discussion about entry price, comparative hobby interests, etc or they could have just referred the parent to the store owner but since he was there to play a game of X-Wing, the conversation would, in my mind, naturally flow to an alternative. Again, not seeing her reaction to the amounts thrown around, I don't know but I'm also not ready to start throwing stones at the person who attempted to help her leave the store with something her child could possibly enjoy playing AND she (assumption) could readily afford to purchase.

Nope, much easier to burn the witch at the stake rather than determine that she wasn't made of wood to begin with.

Very well said Angosto.

Actually, Reaper Bones figures and a copy of Song of Blades and Heroes (or something similar) is the perfect way to get a kid in to miniatures gaming. Cheap buy in (in case the interest of the miniatures hobby does not last for that person), lack of needing to assembly line paint a bunch of nearly identical figures, every figure is unique and important, etc. It's how I will get my son into playing in a few years (although I have a miniatures cabinet to pull from, so I am particularly lucky - but I will likely by then be using a 5-7 year ol dog-eared copy of something like Song, or the upcoming Rogue Star).

Hell, I am sitting on 20 years in the hobby after getting Battlemasters for Christmas, and then Tyranid Attack (Advanced Space Crusade) pointed me at 40k. Games like X-wing are a modernized version of that.




Though this discussion has gone pretty far off topic. I really thing that GW was just plain too threatened to continue the relationship. Even though their products that FFG made and carried were perfectly successful, they didn't want to keep giving money to a company who was a huge competitor for the inertia of their miniatures war-gaming juggernaut.

Imagine if GW were ever get the stones to make other mainline games again (not likely- they would probably feel that it would cannibalize 40K/AoS sales). I am a huge fan of Battlefleet Gothic, but there's no way it would outsell Star Wars Armada, or be as mainstream as a competing miniatures game that you can buy in Barnes and Noble bookstores. They don't want to (albeit indirectly) give money to that situation through a license for RPG's and boardgames.

Hell, look at the popularity of all the Flightpath-styled games. GW had what would be a direct competitor to that, and they couldn't care less! Imagine how cool it would be if you could get easily accessible Aeronautica Imperialis planes direct from GW! I own X-Wing and I would have definitely bought a squadron game in the 40K-universe game instead. But not an unsupported game through Forgeworld at high expense.

Davor wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
As said previously, a starter pack for 40k is not that much more expensive than a starter pack for Xwing. Agreed that the cost of some miniatures by GW is outrageous, but so is the cost of some of these xwing models. In fact, I'd even say that they are outGWing GW in term of the customer.

As a parent who doesn't really understand how some of my sons games works and he want's something, as the parent buying something, I go how much is this for Magic, he would say about $140, then i would say you want this video game as well? He would say Yes so I get him the video game. A parent doesn't care if the cheaper alternative is actually more expensive mini wise, we look at how much something will cost total wise.

So I can see where the Mom would buy the X-wing kit. To add more to X-wing is still cheaper than adding in more to 40K. So of course X-wing seems the better deal. If GW doesn't want to compete with this that is there problem. It's the parents who only see the final picture which is the final price. Quality or price per mini be damned, it's the final price that matters. After all if you are compelling you are getting less with X-wing I can say well you can go to the dollar store and get 100X more by buying there.

After all $100 box sets (Canadian prices) is still $100 compared to $50 for X-wing. Also if the kid wants to expand it's only $20 or so not compared to $50 in a few cases and almost always around $100 or more. So in the end when you don't care (usually the parent) plastic toys is plastic toys and plastic toys can be bought at the dollar store way cheaper or better toys at Walmart/Toys are Us for better quality than what GW is putting out.

Walmart toys that are better quality than GW minis ???? I'd like to know where you live, cause it is clearly not the case where I live. I hate to defend GW, cause I think that they are really stretching their prices to absurd length, but we also have to be honest. Their quality (mini-wise) is far beyong anything you'll find at walmart or toysRus, and far better than Xwing models. Let's not be ridiculous. Is it worth the price they are asking for? No probably not (at least not objectively speaking), but that's a whole other discussion.

But then again, your position clearly shows the stupidity of GW not having an entry level game. A game the size of Mordheim and Necromunda would do wonder to attract new players that are scared by the price of a full 40k army.

 streetsamurai wrote:


Walmart toys that are better quality than GW minis ???? I'd like to know where you live, cause it is clearly not the case where I live. I hate to defend GW, cause I think that they are really stretching their prices to absurd length, but we also have to be honest. Their quality (mini-wise) is far beyong anything you'll find at walmart or toysRus, and far better than Xwing models. Let's not be ridiculous. Is it worth the price they are asking for? No probably not (at least not objectively speaking), but that's a whole other discussion.

Let's not get ridiculous? Heaven forbid most people view 40K or "plastic toy soldiers" in a differing way than we do.

Again I was speaking in a "parents" eye who doesn't know better. All most people would know is 1) It's expensive to buy 2) You have to put it together 3) other toys are cheaper and already put together. Then they see how a lot of people's paint job and modelling skills, yes better quality.

Why are you getting offended? Just because you think of 40K is and other people (the non gamer) think differently doesn't mean anyone is wrong. They just have a different opinion.

Sorry for trying to say how other people see 40K through differing eyes.

I'm not offended, nor I wished to offend you. Sorry if it was the case (might be a language thing, since english is not my first language).But I'm no post-modernist. Not everything is in the eye of the beholder. They are clearly some objective measure with which you can measure quality in a miniature, and nothing from walmart or ToysRus even come close to what GW release. Of course someone who don't know anything about miniature might think that a prepainted toy is of better quality than a GW miniature, but his opinion would as valid as an art neophyte thinking the drawing of his neighbor is better than the one of a world classe artist. Now, the Walmart toy might be better suit to someone desire than the GW miniature, but that is a whole other debate.

Did GW ever do anything more with their dueling flyers game that seems to try to be a 40k take on X-Wing?



GW vs Toys stuff: As Walmart toys are to GW kits, GW kits are to Bandai kits.