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Drone network is interceptor at full BS afaik.

In regards to the tau stuff, as someone said, it's rock paper siccors. If you want to beat them, you take either a grav battle company or a Death Star, and it becomes super easy. There is no point even pretending that a fun fluffy BA list will even come close. If you're losing to a double riptide wing, or even singleriptide wing / double storm surge army then that person is playing a very different game to you. You don't rock up at the running track with moon boots to try your luck against usain bolt and then complain when he beats you.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? So many juicy targets. And you can kill them all with double/triple tapping or whatever nonsense Tau can do.

Double/Tripple tapping what? Can I get some specifics? I really am starting to think you're getting cheated here. The only thing that I can think off the top of my head that can double tap is the Riptide secondary weapons i.e. Plasma/SMS/Fusion. Nothing else I can think of. If we're talking about the Y'Varna suit then that can double tap and has to forgo it's next shooting phase entirely, so it can take out one unit and then miss a turn of shooting. Not to mention it costs a lot more than the normal Riptide so a two 5 man squad to one of those is an acceptable exchange.

Maybe you should try reading your Codex?

In context of EWO then Fire Warriors don't count.

Invocation of the Elements
Storm of Fire: Fire an extra shot with pulse weapons when target is within half range.

That's from Ethereals.
You also have the Fireblade who has this rule:

Volley Fire: If this model, and his unit, do not move in the Movement phase, their pulse rifles and pulse carbines fire an additional shot in the Shooting phase.

So that is how you can have units firing 3-4 shots per turn. 4 shots on units with a Fireblade that did not move, 3 shots otherwise if there's an Ethereal doing Storm of Fire.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why? So many juicy targets. And you can kill them all with double/triple tapping or whatever nonsense Tau can do.

Double/Tripple tapping what? Can I get some specifics? I really am starting to think you're getting cheated here. The only thing that I can think off the top of my head that can double tap is the Riptide secondary weapons i.e. Plasma/SMS/Fusion. Nothing else I can think of. If we're talking about the Y'Varna suit then that can double tap and has to forgo it's next shooting phase entirely, so it can take out one unit and then miss a turn of shooting. Not to mention it costs a lot more than the normal Riptide so a two 5 man squad to one of those is an acceptable exchange.

Maybe you should try reading your Codex?

In context of EWO then Fire Warriors don't count.

Not everything is discussing EWO. You discussed how Tau do not like armies deployed right in their faces...yet, clearly, that can be mitigated pretty heavily.

Invocation of the Elements
Storm of Fire: Fire an extra shot with pulse weapons when target is within half range.

That's from Ethereals.
You also have the Fireblade who has this rule:

Volley Fire: If this model, and his unit, do not move in the Movement phase, their pulse rifles and pulse carbines fire an additional shot in the Shooting phase.

So that is how you can have units firing 3-4 shots per turn. 4 shots on units with a Fireblade that did not move, 3 shots otherwise if there's an Ethereal doing Storm of Fire.

Yes it's nice, but I have already mathhmmered this and the Crisis suits get more bang for their buck and are more survivable.

Heh...
Sure, Crisis Suits "get more bang for their buck"...but Crisis Suits also cost you more and have a limited way of being taken.

I can say something. On top of the crazy amounts of interceptor, the Tau can turn overwatch into yet another shooting phase. If I dropped in 4 units with turn 1 charge, two might get into combat. You would then shoot those two units to death after the CC ended. Assaulting with mortal units is so damn easy to beat in 7th.

I think something is amiss here. Interceptor and BS2 overwatch are two separate systems and 2 separate upgrades. Can I just ask what your opponents are taking? The number of systems each suit gets is as follows:

Crisis: 3 systems but weapons are included in this. So 2 individual weapons or one twin linked weapon take up 2 systems.
Riptide: Can 2 systems in addition to it's weapon, but one of these is normally the FNP system.
Broadsides: Can only take one system in addition to their weapons.

So I'm guess, I'm asking what you normally see?

I'm going to guess that it likely involves a Drone Net, which has Interceptor as part of its Formation rules, packed full of Marker Drones to beef up everything else.

Indeed. It's not in the normal codex so must be an expansion. SO it fires up and one unit and hopefully provides some markerlights for another unit to overwatch at a higher BS.

The Drone Net VX1-0(from Mont'ka) is four or more units of Drones, all of the Drone units gaining the following USRs:
Interceptor, Jink, Outflank, Precision Shots, and Split Fire.

Whoever told you that Mont'ka or the Farsight Enclaves book were "not worth it" was a goon.

However I think Martel is underestimating how much Tau players are going to hate this ds and assault stuff from BA players.

Considering how Tau players laughed and shrugged off the arguably better DS and Assault stuff from the Raven Guard supplement material in Kauyon?

I think they'll manage just fine against Blood Angels.

Martel732 wrote:
Drone network is interceptor at full BS afaik.

What about overwatch?

They do not Overwatch at full BS, but they don't need to.

Xirax wrote:
Got my hands on the new book today. Pure death company list looks fluffy and fun. That 6" extra move after deployment could prove valuable in small matches. This death company strike force gets stormravens as dedicated transports aswell. I've painted my only one already in DC colours.

Only T1 deepstriker is the old (exterminatus) archangel's demi-company, only now with T1 DS rule.. but yeah, dante and two SG T2+ anytime you want could be groovy. Orbital intervention force got that earlier mentioned orbital intervention rule which gives extra shot to any target when arriving from DS and assault termies can make an disordered charge the turn they arrive.

Having hard time figuring out what is exactly needed to form an lost brotherhood, it can't be that big as mentioned in the flavor text.

Biggest minus besides no ob sec for demi company is the fact that assault marines lost their free pod.. Just finished painting my drop podding 4 melta shot assault marines.. damn.

I am hoping I am missing something in the translation, but is there any reason to take a Blood Angels Battle Demi-Company in an Angel's Blade? Or are the formation benefits literally the same as the Detachment benefits?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not everything is discussing EWO. You discussed how Tau do not like armies deployed right in their faces...yet, clearly, that can be mitigated pretty heavily.

Ok true, but an army in their face is still what they hate the most. When I have lost games with my Tau it's because of an army right in my face on mass.

Sure, Crisis Suits "get more bang for their buck"...but Crisis Suits also cost you more and have a limited way of being taken.

What I calculated was cost per shot. Although the Fire Warriors still had a lower cost per shot it wasn't by much when compared to Crisis Suits with Burst Cannons. Also I found that Adding a Cadre Fireblade increased the cost per shot of the Fire Warriors which was interesting.

So here is what I found.

Fire Warriors with SMS Turret - 4.58 pts per shot.

Cadre Fireblade with Fire Warriors & SMS Turret - 4.72 pts per shot.

Crisis Suits with Burst Cannons - 5.66 pts per shot.

The only difference in profile to the Pulse Rifles and the Burst Cannons are the range, which I admit can make a difference but not if the enemy is right in your face flaming your Fire Warriors with AP4 templates.

The Drone Net VX1-0 is four or more units of Drones, all of them gaining the following USRs: Interceptor, Jink, Outflank, Precision Shots, and Split Fire.

OK, so I can see quite a lot of rules here. Interceptor and split fire being the key ones in relation to our discussion.

Considering how Tau players laughed and shrugged off the arguably better DS and Assault stuff from the Raven Guard supplement material in Kauyon?

Were they assaulting after deep strike?

I think they'll manage just fine against Blood Angels.

Then just refuse to play Tau and point to this as the reason why. Surely they must be beaten somehow otherwise they would win just about every game and thus tournaments (discounting those tournaments that make heavy rule modifications for certain armies). I know Tau shooting is horrendously good but I don't exactly wipe everyone off the table with only one turn of shooting. I guess I must not have as broken a list as every other Tau player.

They do not Overwatch at full BS, but they don't need to.

Split fire allows them to shoot at two units in this case. Are we accounting for a Commander here with Drone Controller or are we assuming BS2 for their normal shots?

They get beaten by lists with invisibility access and units that resist being dakkaed down. Like TWC with storm shields or Necron Wraiths. I'm told Imperial Knights are good against Tau, but I'm not sure.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am hoping I am missing something in the translation, but is there any reason to take a Blood Angels Battle Demi-Company in an Angel's Blade? Or are the formation benefits literally the same as the Detachment benefits?

The only bonus I can see is the Zealot at the 50% rule. Not a lot I know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
They get beaten by lists with invisibility access and units that resist being dakkaed down. Like TWC with storm shields or Necron Wraiths. I'm told Imperial Knights are good against Tau, but I'm not sure.

Invisibility Units - Yes I can see why this is.

TWC - Interesting. I've not played against much Space Wolves with my Tau so I can't really comment but a lot of Tau shooting is based on Mass fire power rather than low AP (exception is riptide), or at least in my case it is since I pack HYMP Broadsides. The inclusion of a SS to make a 3+ unit into a 3++ one instead isn't really making me see how much more survivable against Tau that would make them.

Necron Wraiths - Yes, a ridiculous number of shots needed to take down Wraiths granted. Especially in a Decurion. Those Wraiths however still can do this while making their way up the board from their own table edge when Tau have time to plan for them.

Imperial Knights - High Armour is difficult for Tau. We don't get an awful lot of really high strength weapons. We get a ton at S5 to S7 but from S8 onwards we have fusions, Ion Accelerator and railgun variants. HYMP shots would need 6's to glance a Knight on the front and then of course the Knight would get an invulnerable save. I have to include a Hammerhead, Riptide (Ion Accelerator) and a Crisis Team with Fusions in my list just to make sure I can deal with high AV.

That last part leads me to my next idea for you. The Lucifer Armoured Task Force. The Land Raiders get scout and overcharged engines and look like they get that 6" re-deploy move which doesn't count as a scout move as well. So no use of interceptor against that.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not everything is discussing EWO. You discussed how Tau do not like armies deployed right in their faces...yet, clearly, that can be mitigated pretty heavily.

Ok true, but an army in their face is still what they hate the most. When I have lost games with my Tau it's because of an army right in my face on mass.

If you're losing games with your Tau to an army "right in your face", stop running lots of Crisis Suits and start bringing some Breachers/Strike Teams and bring along some Broadsides with HYMPs/SMS.

Sure, Crisis Suits "get more bang for their buck"...but Crisis Suits also cost you more and have a limited way of being taken.

What I calculated was cost per shot. Although the Fire Warriors still had a lower cost per shot it wasn't by much when compared to Crisis Suits with Burst Cannons. Also I found that Adding a Cadre Fireblade increased the cost per shot of the Fire Warriors which was interesting.

So here is what I found.

Fire Warriors with SMS Turret - 4.58 pts per shot.

Cadre Fireblade with Fire Warriors & SMS Turret - 4.72 pts per shot.

Crisis Suits with Burst Cannons - 5.66 pts per shot.

The only difference in profile to the Pulse Rifles and the Burst Cannons are the range, which I admit can make a difference but not if the enemy is right in your face flaming your Fire Warriors with AP4 templates.

And what happens when you start talking about Breachers?

Considering how Tau players laughed and shrugged off the arguably better DS and Assault stuff from the Raven Guard supplement material in Kauyon?

Were they assaulting after deep strike?

Um, yes?

Turn one, auto-arriving Vanguard Veteran Squads with the ability to ignore Scatter by picking an arrival point between infiltrated Scout units.
Turn one, Outflanking Tactical/Devastator Squads with the ability to Ignore Cover.
Turn one, Deep Striking Assault and Vanguard Squads that have the ability to disengage from a combat and re-Deep Strike.

Basically there was a lot of Deep Strike going on with the Raven Guard stuff. Not all of it was able to Assault the turn it arrived, but not all of it needed to.

I think they'll manage just fine against Blood Angels.

Then just refuse to play Tau and point to this as the reason why. Surely they must be beaten somehow otherwise they would win just about every game and thus tournaments (discounting those tournaments that make heavy rule modifications for certain armies). I know Tau shooting is horrendously good but I don't exactly wipe everyone off the table with only one turn of shooting. I guess I must not have as broken a list as every other Tau player.

Or maybe you shouldn't be putting Burst Cannons on your Crisis Suits and pretending to be an authority on the faction?

They do not Overwatch at full BS, but they don't need to.

Split fire allows them to shoot at two units in this case. Are we accounting for a Commander here with Drone Controller or are we assuming BS2 for their normal shots?

If you had Mont'ka, you would know that the Drone Network VX1-0 also gives all Drones on the battlefield +1 BS during the Shooting phase as long as at least two units from the Formation are on the battlefield.

So we're talking BS3 Drones as normal, BS5 for those Drones with a Commander with DC.

Help me out here. In the Angel's blade there's a section "wargear of baal" where it introduces rules for armorium cherub and grav amp and has a phrase " all other items of wargear are described full either in C:BA or in rulebook of 40k."

I got two year old BA codex and rulebook from deathstorm. I'm lacking stat lines for grav cannon and eviscerator.

Where am I supposed to find these?

I found new stat lines for dreads (more attacks) and scouts (+1 WS/BS) from that rules errata realeased a month back or so.

Is there a new rulebook or some other errata I'm missing OR does this really mean that I'm supposed to buy the new revised Red thirst edition for blood angels codex to get those two puny lines. WTF?

Battle demi company is total crap. Who wants regular dreadnought etc with average point cost of 900 points of 8 units mostly not really that good and no objective secured. That zealot rule comes only available to unit after it's reduces to less than 50% of orginal squad size.

Xirax wrote:
Help me out here. In the Angel's blade there's a section "wargear of baal" where it introduces rules for armorium cherub and grav amp and has a phrase " all other items of wargear are described full either in C:BA or in rulebook of 40k."

I got two year old BA codex and rulebook from deathstorm. I'm lacking stat lines for grav cannon and eviscerator.

Where am I supposed to find these?

I found new stat lines for dreads (more attacks) and scouts (+1 WS/BS) from that rules errata realeased a month back or so.

Is there a new rulebook or some other errata I'm missing OR does this really mean that I'm supposed to buy the new revised Red thirst edition for blood angels codex to get those two puny lines. WTF?

Battle demi company is total crap. Who wants regular dreadnought etc with average point cost of 900 points of 8 units mostly not really that good and no objective secured. That zealot rule comes only available to unit after it's reduces to less than 50% of orginal squad size.

Grav Cannons and Eviscerators are in the Rules.

Yeah, the BDC and Angel's Blade in general are crap. Better to just take the good formations (Orbital Intervention Force, Lucifer, and Golden Host) separate from it to avoid the BDC tax.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you're losing games with your Tau to an army "right in your face", stop running lots of Crisis Suits and start bringing some Breachers/Strike Teams and bring along some Broadsides with HYMPs/SMS.

I'm not losing lots of games to armies in my face. I just stated that when I do lose it's under those circumstances. I already pack 2 units of Broadsides in my list with HYMP and SMS and I also do use Fire Warriors as my two troops choices. I also take a unit of Crisis suits with fusion blasters, a riptide with IA and fusion blaster, two units of pathfinders (Still need to get Tetra's) and a Hammerhead with a Heavy Railgun.

And what happens when you start talking about Breachers?

What profile are we using? We have 3 different profile up till 15" with the AP3 one being only 5" range. Even if we disreagard range we are talking 2 shots normal at 15" which is the same as a pulse rifles so calculations show same pts per shot.

Um, yes?

I was genuinely asking because I'm not familiar with Raven Guard rules.

Turn one, auto-arriving Vanguard Veteran Squads with the ability to ignore Scatter by picking an arrival point between infiltrated Scout units.
Turn one, Outflanking Tactical/Devastator Squads with the ability to Ignore Cover.
Turn one, Deep Striking Assault and Vanguard Squads that have the ability to disengage from a combat and re-Deep Strike.

Basically there was a lot of Deep Strike going on with the Raven Guard stuff. Not all of it was able to Assault the turn it arrived, but not all of it needed to.

Now replace those units with Termies and Sanguinary Guard and I'm literally soiling myself. Better Armour saves and more units in your face. From what I understand The Termies can come on from turn 1 if they want and the SG get to choose literally when to come on.

Or maybe you shouldn't be putting Burst Cannons on your Crisis Suits and pretending to be an authority on the faction?

Just because I did a calculation on it that doesn't mean it's the list I run with. A poor assumption from you to say the least. I actually have quite a large extensive Tau force and what I usually play I listed above.

If you had Mont'ka, you would know that the Drone Network VX1-0 also gives all Drones on the battlefield +1 BS during the Shooting phase as long as at least two units from the Formation are on the battlefield.

So we're talking BS3 Drones as normal, BS5 for those Drones with a Commander with DC.

Well it's not my fault that other Tau players I talked to thought it was useless buying the thing if you had the main codex. They literally said to me if I was buying the new codex then I wouldn't need the expansions since the expansion mainly covered the new units i.e. Ghostkeel and Stormsurge.

Grav has it's own special rule.

IIRC, Eviscerator is Unwieldy and Armourbane, both in special rules.

Xirax wrote:

Grav Cannons and Eviscerators are in the Rules.

I'm having hard time finding it from my wh40k rulebook, where to look exactly? Index doesn't or neither salvo/assault/shooting phase sections.

it is in the Ranged Weapons of the 41st Millennium. Towards the back of the book after the Special Rules section.

I'm having hard time finding it from my wh40k rulebook, where to look exactly? Index doesn't or neither salvo/assault/shooting phase sections.

You can find the rules for ranged weapons at page 176 of the rulebook.

Wooden eye patch removed. Thanks. First time index didn't help

Understanding what excatly is the requirements for lost brotherhood is still unknown to me. Will try to figure it out while UCL viewing.

Xirax wrote:
Wooden eye patch removed. Thanks. First time index didn't help

Understanding what excatly is the requirements for lost brotherhood is still unknown to me. Will try to figure it out while UCL viewing.

You need a 1-3 death company command choice and the death company strike force (1 DC chaplain, 3 units of DC and 1-3 DC dreadnought). This is the minimal requirement.

Just realised myself. The flavor text was frightning point wise. Need to buy the command choice... Aswell as decided whether field orbital intervention which I own or buy one more SG for angels hosts. Nothing denies my taking angels host with lost brotherhood? Only hosts wont get the benefit from army spevial rule which they couldn't benefit anyway?

Xirax wrote:
Just realised myself. The flavor text was frightning point wise. Need to buy the command choice... Aswell as decided whether field orbital intervention which I own or buy one more SG for angels hosts. Nothing denies my taking angels host with lost brotherhood? Only hosts wont get the benefit from army spevial rule which they couldn't benefit anyway?

Sadly you can't take angels hosts if you choose this detachment.

"..Note that you can also include any of the Formations presented in this section as part of Battle-forged army." "A lost Brotherhood strike force is a special type of a Detachment that can be included in any Battle-forged army..." Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Lost Brotherhood Strike Force are an exception. They count as part of both their formation and the detachment, and have all associated Command benefits and special rules. If your warlord is part of a Formation or an army list entry that makes up part of a lost brotherhood strike force, that entire lost brotherdhood strike force is your primary detachment."

Am I understanding this wrong then?

You could always take the Golden Host as a separate Detachment from your Lost Brotherhood. It won't benefit from any of the Lost Brotherhood'a Detachment benefits, but you can still take it. I plan on running the Golden Host paired with a CAD and an Orbital Intervention Force, all outside any overarching Detachment like the Angel's Blade.

Golden Host looks like a great formation to splash into any Blood Angels army. Definitely gonna run one myself!

Golden Host doesn't make Sanguine Guard any good. They're still trash. Terminators got better from it though.

At least we changed from 5 pages of complaining about tau...

I'm just excited to field a mostly jump pack army again. Thinking something along these lines

Company of the lost
-DC chaplain with relic crozius
-10 DC with packs and 2 fists
-2x5 DC with packs and one fist each
-DC dread with talons in a pod

Rapid assault force
-2x10 ASM with 2 melta and vet sgt with power sword
-5x bikes with triple grav

Maybe fill the rest with the scout formation (three cheap squads)

I think you can fit all that into a 1750 or 1850 list. Between combat squads and the three scout units you put 12 units on the table turn one. And all your DC and assault marines get a free 6in move, so turn 1 assaults are not out of the question.

So Lucifer Armoured Task Force in a DC Detachment.

Set-up 12"
Re-deploy 6"
Scout Move (12" for fast vehicles I believe)
Normal Move of 12"
And fire weapons. Flamestorm Cannons looking good at this point.

 DarthOvious wrote:
So Lucifer Armoured Task Force in a DC Detachment.

Set-up 12"
Re-deploy 6"
Scout Move (12" for fast vehicles I believe)
Normal Move of 12"
And fire weapons. Flamestorm Cannons looking good at this point.

It seems pretty awesome. Baal Predators in either form can shoot practically anything on the board.

 DarthOvious wrote:
So Lucifer Armoured Task Force in a DC Detachment.

Set-up 12"
Re-deploy 6"
Scout Move (12" for fast vehicles I believe)
Normal Move of 12"
And fire weapons. Flamestorm Cannons looking good at this point.

Heck yeah, that is actually pretty good, also if you can have las plas Razorbacks for the death company? So you can threaten things that aren't hordes. Putting death company or assualt termies in the land raiders isn't bad either.

Brutishcard wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
So Lucifer Armoured Task Force in a DC Detachment.

Set-up 12"
Re-deploy 6"
Scout Move (12" for fast vehicles I believe)
Normal Move of 12"
And fire weapons. Flamestorm Cannons looking good at this point.

Heck yeah, that is actually pretty good, also if you can have las plas Razorbacks for the death company? So you can threaten things that aren't hordes. Putting death company or assualt termies in the land raiders isn't bad either.

Razorbacks are the only tank that Death Company can take, so yes you could do that. Cruising around with a bunch of Assault Cannon or Las Plas Razorbacks is a possibility. Too bad they can't get Scout, but the 6" move in addition to Fast is pretty good.