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 DarknessEternal wrote:

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex.

Yes, because Objective Secured is the sole reason regular Marine demi-companies are amongst the best thing in the game and losing it makes them the worst?

Your histrionics don't impress anyone.

It is the combination of objective secured and free transports that is making gladius win games, absolutely. In fact there are many battle company lists that don't care about killing a single enemy model in the game. It's about parking multiple layers of objective secured units on to objective and your opponent simply not having the ability to remove them in time.

The blood angels demi company lacks both of those things and requires more "tax" units. If you look at many gladius lists the tactical marines are simply 5 man tactical squads in a free razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade (t/l lascannon/assault cannon or las/plas). this unit and its transport are both objective secure for a total cost of 90 points. The blood angels would pay 155 points for the exact same load out and not have objective secured. There is a big difference there.

And to all the people saying the Blooded Demi-company had objective secured, it never did. It has the same benefits as the Baal strike force (+1 init when charging). IT was the full Blood angels battle company that had objective secured on the troop units and that one clocks in at about 1350 points before any upgrades.

So in summation- Losing Objective secured, the addition of tax units and having to pay more for transports does make it pretty bad.

Not only that, but the Blood Angels "chapter tactics" if you will - benefit those Demi units the least. Just SM chapter tactics ALONE make those units better, even before the things you've listed.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Brutishcard wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

I think it is a bit uninformed to compare the BA Demi company vs the gladius demi company and put them around the same value.

So much this. (No offence to original poster) this is before you even consider the utterly redundant benefits of running a Demi company in the strike force. No one will ever use that formation outside of a game where their opponent has agreed to take the worst units of their own codex.

Yes, because Objective Secured is the sole reason regular Marine demi-companies are amongst the best thing in the game and losing it makes them the worst?

Your histrionics don't impress anyone.

I see your point, but really the tax on the Demi company is pretty significant as if you're not getting any obsec from there you're not getting it at all. Whereas I would argue that the demi company literally fills that role in space marine armies. missing it on one or two units wouldn't be a big deal, but not having it at all is actually a big loss

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Thulsa Kane isn't a Blood Angels character, additionally he only affects models from the base Space Marines Codex and units with the Chapter Tactics: Executioners.

But then again he still IS a chaplain, and has Zealot

And he's 190pts, plus cost of what ever allied formation you bring in order to get him. Combined with the high price of your Blood Angels formation. So not worth it over the basic Death Company Chaplain.

Unless you are running the Executioners as your primary detachment, in which case you still need to have a Death Company Chaplain to bring Death Company to support. And you'd still be better off running him with his own guys.

Come on. I can't get the DC Chappy w/o the jump pack? I want the re-roll to wound in a non-JP configuration. Is that too much to ask for?

Why yes, yes it is were BA and we don't get the good stuff anymore.

BA are now the NPC goodies if that even a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping for so much more from this. I don't know why now I must admit.

kryczek wrote:
Why yes, yes it is were BA and we don't get the good stuff anymore.

BA are now the NPC goodies if that even a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping for so much more from this. I don't know why now I must admit.

Seems a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

Terminators that can assault or shoot twice on the deepstrike, Sanguinary Guard that can pick when they want to come in starting turn 2 and assault on the deepstrike, Death Company that can essentially assault turn 1, and Devastators that finally get grav make BA middle tier at worst. Lack of free transports and obsec is hardly the end of the world for BA.

kryczek wrote:
Why yes, yes it is were BA and we don't get the good stuff anymore.

BA are now the NPC goodies if that even a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping for so much more from this. I don't know why now I must admit.

It could be worse. You could be like Sisters of Battle. I am sure they would like any update at all right now.

*edit* Now all we have to do is vote with our wallet with the displeasure and not buy anything that is GW putting out that you don't like.

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:

kryczek wrote:
Why yes, yes it is were BA and we don't get the good stuff anymore.

BA are now the NPC goodies if that even a thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping for so much more from this. I don't know why now I must admit.

Seems a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

Terminators that can assault or shoot twice on the deepstrike, Sanguinary Guard that can pick when they want to come in starting turn 2 and assault on the deepstrike, Death Company that can essentially assault turn 1, and Devastators that finally get grav make BA middle tier at worst. Lack of free transports and obsec is hardly the end of the world for BA.

This is basically how I feel. Not going to complain, since I feel every army should strive to be middle tier.

Seems a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

Maybe so, I'll grant you that.

It could be worse. You could be like Sisters of Battle. I am sure they would like any update at all right now.

WD dex made me get rid of my sister's. It's up to their player's now to take that on.

I guess my frustration is borne from what i hoped was a BA supplement and what I got wasn't.

The Demi companies do well(very rarely win) because the mission structure of the tournaments supports that play style.

They emphasize things like objective secured or just having lots of units in general. They rely on people not having enough units to shoot them all.

What crushes them? Armies that can assault/multi assault because now they are fighting in two phases of the game, your turn and theirs.

By most metrics yes it is inferior, however everyone complains about he free stuff in the Demi company so why is more of that bad? Personally I would rather have as many books relatively close together in power so that it only takes alterations of the two or three outliers to bring e game into closer balance.

My wet dream was to have a DC dreadnought able to charge the turn he comes from the drop pod.
I then looked into this lost brotherhood detachment: someone in here said that you can potetintially do a first turn charge: maybe if you play against a new player, but at my local store my enemies would just place their whole army close to their table edge so that I won't be able to do this trick. The bad thing is that you are forced to take an additional DC chaplain and at least a DC dreddy who might be completely useless since none will ever put this poor guy in a drop pod and watch it die since he disembarks looks around and explode without doing anything.
I' ll try this anyway but I will then probably run a CAD without my beloved death company since it just make me feel so sad to watch it die without having a chance to charge anything.

BeeCee wrote:


It is the combination of objective secured and free transports that is making gladius win games, absolutely. In fact there are many battle company lists that don't care about killing a single enemy model in the game. It's about parking multiple layers of objective secured units on to objective and your opponent simply not having the ability to remove them in time.

The blood angels demi company lacks both of those things and requires more "tax" units. If you look at many gladius lists the tactical marines are simply 5 man tactical squads in a free razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade (t/l lascannon/assault cannon or las/plas). this unit and its transport are both objective secure for a total cost of 90 points. The blood angels would pay 155 points for the exact same load out and not have objective secured. There is a big difference there.

And to all the people saying the Blooded Demi-company had objective secured, it never did. It has the same benefits as the Baal strike force (+1 init when charging). IT was the full Blood angels battle company that had objective secured on the troop units and that one clocks in at about 1350 points before any upgrades.

So in summation- Losing Objective secured, the addition of tax units and having to pay more for transports does make it pretty bad.

Well, to stay fair and objective on that matter:
Gladius lists that simply spam Razorbacks and focus on layer-parking objectives without killing much arent the ones that win most games as they have hard times vs high output enemys (mainly Eldar and Tau but also Knights and Deamons too some degree) and are hopelessly lost in non-objective missions vs most enemies because they have virtually no output themselves.
What DOES win many games / is highly competitive are those White Scars Gladius lists spamming Gravcannon Tacticals/Devas in scouting Rhinos because they have ObSec, staying power AND aggressive output. It works so well because it combines aspects (ObSec, free transports, Chapter Tactics, special character warlord trait, unusual and expensive weapon choice for Tacs/Devas) to a strong synergy.
And it is not exclusivly due to the free transports... Medusa Strike Force with a single Demi (so no free transports) and double Skyhammers as Aux choices is very potent aswell and easily wracks havoc to a random Razorback-spam Gladius.

All that surely doesnt change the fact that BA Demi is very bad - but most SW core detachments and most of the chapter specific core detachments from AoD arent any good either and even the DA Demi -which does have ObSec AND free transports if doubled up- isnt exactly competitive... but thats no problem because those armies just utilize better formations/concepts (Wolfstar / Ravenwing) - and the same goes for BA...
If you want to play BA codex use the Detachments/Formations which are good and stop bitching about the ones that suck (not "you" personally, "you" the BA players)... Most SM Aux formations suck aswell so SM players just use the 1 or 2 which do not.
If you rather want to play BA models in a DC/BC just use the vanilla codex and add specific/stellar BA units via CAD/AD/Formation... its not like furious charge and +1 Ini are in any way usefull to most units a DC is made of!

highwind01 wrote:

BeeCee wrote:


It is the combination of objective secured and free transports that is making gladius win games, absolutely. In fact there are many battle company lists that don't care about killing a single enemy model in the game. It's about parking multiple layers of objective secured units on to objective and your opponent simply not having the ability to remove them in time.

The blood angels demi company lacks both of those things and requires more "tax" units. If you look at many gladius lists the tactical marines are simply 5 man tactical squads in a free razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade (t/l lascannon/assault cannon or las/plas). this unit and its transport are both objective secure for a total cost of 90 points. The blood angels would pay 155 points for the exact same load out and not have objective secured. There is a big difference there.

And to all the people saying the Blooded Demi-company had objective secured, it never did. It has the same benefits as the Baal strike force (+1 init when charging). IT was the full Blood angels battle company that had objective secured on the troop units and that one clocks in at about 1350 points before any upgrades.

So in summation- Losing Objective secured, the addition of tax units and having to pay more for transports does make it pretty bad.

Well, to stay fair and objective on that matter:
Gladius lists that simply spam Razorbacks and focus on layer-parking objectives without killing much arent the ones that win most games as they have hard times vs high output enemys (mainly Eldar and Tau but also Knights and Deamons too some degree) and are hopelessly lost in non-objective missions vs most enemies because they have virtually no output themselves.
What DOES win many games / is highly competitive are those White Scars Gladius lists spamming Gravcannon Tacticals/Devas in scouting Rhinos because they have ObSec, staying power AND aggressive output. It works so well because it combines aspects (ObSec, free transports, Chapter Tactics, special character warlord trait, unusual and expensive weapon choice for Tacs/Devas) to a strong synergy.
And it is not exclusivly due to the free transports... Medusa Strike Force with a single Demi (so no free transports) and double Skyhammers as Aux choices is very potent aswell and easily wracks havoc to a random Razorback-spam Gladius.

All that surely doesnt change the fact that BA Demi is very bad - but most SW core detachments and most of the chapter specific core detachments from AoD arent any good either and even the DA Demi -which does have ObSec AND free transports if doubled up- isnt exactly competitive... but thats no problem because those armies just utilize better formations/concepts (Wolfstar / Ravenwing) - and the same goes for BA...
If you want to play BA codex use the Detachments/Formations which are good and stop bitching about the ones that suck (not "you" personally, "you" the BA players)... Most SM Aux formations suck aswell so SM players just use the 1 or 2 which do not.
If you rather want to play BA models in a DC/BC just use the vanilla codex and add specific/stellar BA units via CAD/AD/Formation... its not like furious charge and +1 Ini are in any way usefull to most units a DC is made of!

What are the list building rules around bolting an orbital strike force (say) onto a gladius? (In addition to all the gladius requirements?

Meanwhile, pretty pictures:





The best part about that second picture is how literally everything in it is a kit that GW sells. So creative. Much freedom. Wow.

I dunno H.B.M.C., I'm pretty sure the Space Marine statue getting zapped by lightening is different to the one GW sells.

I hope the artist was fired for that. Not doing their job correctly by showing inspiration for conversions and scratch builds!

Wow, the artist really captured the awesomeness of the mutilators, you can practically hear the grrrrs and rawgs......

I love how the Sanguinor in the background of the second picture looks like he just disarmed the Lord of Skulls.

Wish my Sanguinor was that cool.

Personally, I think the Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard should be much more powerful They should be nigh impossible to kill.

highwind01 wrote:

BeeCee wrote:


It is the combination of objective secured and free transports that is making gladius win games, absolutely. In fact there are many battle company lists that don't care about killing a single enemy model in the game. It's about parking multiple layers of objective secured units on to objective and your opponent simply not having the ability to remove them in time.

The blood angels demi company lacks both of those things and requires more "tax" units. If you look at many gladius lists the tactical marines are simply 5 man tactical squads in a free razorback with a 20 point weapon upgrade (t/l lascannon/assault cannon or las/plas). this unit and its transport are both objective secure for a total cost of 90 points. The blood angels would pay 155 points for the exact same load out and not have objective secured. There is a big difference there.

And to all the people saying the Blooded Demi-company had objective secured, it never did. It has the same benefits as the Baal strike force (+1 init when charging). IT was the full Blood angels battle company that had objective secured on the troop units and that one clocks in at about 1350 points before any upgrades.

So in summation- Losing Objective secured, the addition of tax units and having to pay more for transports does make it pretty bad.

Well, to stay fair and objective on that matter:
Gladius lists that simply spam Razorbacks and focus on layer-parking objectives without killing much arent the ones that win most games as they have hard times vs high output enemys (mainly Eldar and Tau but also Knights and Deamons too some degree) and are hopelessly lost in non-objective missions vs most enemies because they have virtually no output themselves.
What DOES win many games / is highly competitive are those White Scars Gladius lists spamming Gravcannon Tacticals/Devas in scouting Rhinos because they have ObSec, staying power AND aggressive output. It works so well because it combines aspects (ObSec, free transports, Chapter Tactics, special character warlord trait, unusual and expensive weapon choice for Tacs/Devas) to a strong synergy.
And it is not exclusivly due to the free transports... Medusa Strike Force with a single Demi (so no free transports) and double Skyhammers as Aux choices is very potent aswell and easily wracks havoc to a random Razorback-spam Gladius.

All that surely doesnt change the fact that BA Demi is very bad - but most SW core detachments and most of the chapter specific core detachments from AoD arent any good either and even the DA Demi -which does have ObSec AND free transports if doubled up- isnt exactly competitive... but thats no problem because those armies just utilize better formations/concepts (Wolfstar / Ravenwing) - and the same goes for BA...
If you want to play BA codex use the Detachments/Formations which are good and stop bitching about the ones that suck (not "you" personally, "you" the BA players)... Most SM Aux formations suck aswell so SM players just use the 1 or 2 which do not.
If you rather want to play BA models in a DC/BC just use the vanilla codex and add specific/stellar BA units via CAD/AD/Formation... its not like furious charge and +1 Ini are in any way usefull to most units a DC is made of!

What I do love about this book is it keys in on what makes blood angels unique and buffs those things. Want to play death company? We got you covered and you can play a full on DC army. Do you like sanguinary guard but struggle to justify them breing able to survive jumping across the board or lasting a turn of shooting when they deep strike down? no, problem, how about we charge out of deep strike.

I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

BeeCee wrote:
I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

Yeah, pretty much that

I don't even need that competitive -- as long as they're not so uncompetitive that people pity me, I'm okay with it

\When I want to play red ultramarines, that's easy enough So in the BA codex, I want something unique, playable, fluffy, and fun.

I'm liking most of the formations, pretty useful but not too powerful - what formations should be.

My problem with BA at the minute come from my analytical nature, it just annoys me when I think about taking Vanguard Veteran for instance (a very BA unit) then I realise I'm paying an extra 50pts for a power weapon squad, or terminators that are a base 25pts more expensive. With todays mix and match, take what you fancy approach to army building there really is no reason to take units like these :(

I think the strike force problems are just pure shut rules writing on GW behalf, there is no excuse for having the formation double up on rules, having no obsec and no double Demi bonus. I don't want free transports, they are bad for the game but there has to be some kind of bonus for taking such a restrictive set of units and something that makes them cool. The space marine gladius (free points included) may be a cheesy powerhouse but it makes for a fluffy as hell army the brings a whole set of rarely seen models to the table, was hoping for the BA one to do the same but I suspect with the way it is written it will never be used :(

 Talys wrote:

BeeCee wrote:
I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

Yeah, pretty much that

I don't even need that competitive -- as long as they're not so uncompetitive that people pity me, I'm okay with it

\When I want to play red ultramarines, that's easy enough So in the BA codex, I want something unique, playable, fluffy, and fun.

I kind of feel the opposite really, I don't care too much about how competitive the book is, and DC build is a very flavorful niche army - but otherwise that Demi tax, the "Red Ultramarines" tax if you will is just too big.

Once you're done filling out that Red Ultramarines tax there isn't much room left to include "Blood Angels" units.

This book will be amazing for Apocalypse, but I've been building lists for the last couple days - it's real difficult to build a BA flavor list under 2000 points.

I'm still thankful for this update, but I feel that if you aren't doing Death Company then you're forced to do weaker Red Ultramarines at 1500 points.

So for those that have seen it or read french does the golden host formation get to assault from deepstrike?

Yup, disorderly charge but still cool.

What I do love about this book is it keys in on what makes blood angels unique and buffs those things. Want to play death company? We got you covered and you can play a full on DC army. Do you like sanguinary guard but struggle to justify them breing able to survive jumping across the board or lasting a turn of shooting when they deep strike down? no, problem, how about we charge out of deep strike.

I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

I disagree, even tho I enjoy the book I STILL feel like I'm playing a "worse" red ultramarines. Why? Well because Blood Angels are supposed to be one of the best chapters at lightning assaults that make use of their assault bonuses.

Yet, 997 chapters get Skyhammer Annihilation Force which allows for assault after deep strike AND no disordered charge. Ravenguard get to use their jump packs for assault AND movement and also get a formation that allows them to assault after deep strike with no penalties

Not only does that reduce the attacks it also takes away furious charge and the already terrible bonus of Red Thirst. So we go in the fluff to one of the best assault chapters to one of the worst because the other 997 get to use Codex: SM :p

.

 Kirasu wrote:

What I do love about this book is it keys in on what makes blood angels unique and buffs those things. Want to play death company? We got you covered and you can play a full on DC army. Do you like sanguinary guard but struggle to justify them breing able to survive jumping across the board or lasting a turn of shooting when they deep strike down? no, problem, how about we charge out of deep strike.

I think most Blood Angels players want their army to be competitive but also still feel like you are playing blood angels and not red Ultramarines. I think this book is a step towards that. They won't hang with the best of the best, but I think they can play spoiler to a lot of lists now and if not, it will be a lot more FUN to play them either way. I can't wait to get my copy of the book in the mail. (living in the middle of nowhere really sucks!)

I disagree, even tho I enjoy the book I STILL Feel like i'm playing a "worse" red ultramarines. Why? Well because Blood Angels are supposed to be one of the best chapters at lightning assaults that make use of their assault bonuses.

Yet, 997 chapters get Skyhammer Annihilation Force which allows for assault after deep strike AND no disordered charge. Ravenguard get to use their jump packs for assault AND movement and also get a formation that allows them to assault after deep strike with no penalties

Not only does that reduce the attacks it also takes away furious charge and the already terrible bonus of Red Thirst. So we go in the fluff to one of the best assault chapters to one of the worst because the other 997 get to use Codex: SM :p

.

The thing is we do have some great lightning assault options in this book, the problem is you need to flush out an entire "red ultramarines" army to get there, leaving you very little precious room for those lightning assault units.

I get it we have good assault units, except they ALL suffer penalties for using their abilities where as other generic chapters don't have any penalties.

That's my point is all.

I don't even play Blood Angels and I still think you were robbed. If they weren't going to give you Objsec. They could have dropped that dis-ordered charge non-sense. Maybe granted Rage & Zealot below 50% strength. GW still seems to think Assault is somehow overpowering. Assault units don't get grenades, not allowing assault from Deep Strike or Outflanking, no Running & Charging, , no consolidating into new combats, etc.