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 MajorTom11 wrote:
There was a teaser, confirming the topic exists and is incoming... you speculate until the news cycle completes itself lol...


I have pretty decent confidence in this release. I definitely think it will be a minimum harlequin sized release. I think if they are very, very clever, they will add in options to cross-sell other ranges with an upgrade sprue available. Why in the name of god would you turn your back on selling a ton of dormant IG/AstMil stuff on the back of a harlequin sized release too, with your only big implication to do so being a DW/BA style upgrade sprue?

Why in the name of god would they turn their back on selling Chimeras or Rhinos or Razorbacks with Skitarii? Or all the Eldar stuff that could have piggybacked with the Harlequin release itself?

They have a vision for the army. If it includes that dormant IG/AM stuff, then it will. I think it is rather telling that the Genestealer Cult they chose to showcase for Deathwatch Overkill was not one of those "We have tanks, limos, and all kinds of military assets!" but rather just a ragtag bunch with converted mining equipment and looted autoguns from the PDF.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Regardless, this is a property they 100% wholly own, no major derivation from other sources. The name, the designs, the pedigree, all theirs, and that is exactly the kind of stuff they are focusing on for IP reasons.

Well, apart from being MASSIVELY influenced by Aliens... but yes, it's more original than derivative. And it's heavy on the nostalgia for long-time fans. That's why I bought two DW:OK boxes without thinking about it!!! Still cheaper than a handful of recasts... SORRY... 'undercoated RARE' originals on eBay. (seriously, there must be more out there than were ever made in Nottingham)

If the release is close enough to be in the next White Dwarf I'll be a happy little subscriber...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:

They have a vision for the army. If it includes that dormant IG/AM stuff, then it will. I think it is rather telling that the Genestealer Cult they chose to showcase for Deathwatch Overkill was not one of those "We have tanks, limos, and all kinds of military assets!" but rather just a ragtag bunch with converted mining equipment and looted autoguns from the PDF.

Um... I am surprised you are surprised to be honest, the aesthetic and design of the DWOK cultists is exactly inline with the original designs and weapons barring one thing only, the mining laser thingy in place of a conversion beamer. Otherwise the suits and guns are spot on and no surprise at all in any way if you were not expecting a radical deviation from the 2nd ed models. The military angle, and the limo, never actually existed before as models, only fluff and conversions in old 2nd ed compendium rules/wd I think.

So, there is room to expand into the military and limo if they wanted to, but that would be a deviation model wise, the models themselves are wholly consistent with the original designs. I sure hope they take the opportunity to officially branch out the models to militia/military styles and also would be great if some were even civilian'ish too, maybe being able to use the bodies etc as human IG militia on the other side of things too. I doubt they would go that far, but it would be cool

Actually, the minis go one beyond the original models and include things shown in art but not in model form (Aberrants are inspired by the shirtless lump dude in 'that' classic piece of GS Cult art).

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Regardless, this is a property they 100% wholly own, no major derivation from other sources. The name, the designs, the pedigree, all theirs, and that is exactly the kind of stuff they are focusing on for IP reasons.

Well, apart from being MASSIVELY influenced by Aliens... but yes, it's more original than derivative. And it's heavy on the nostalgia for long-time fans. That's why I bought two DW:OK boxes without thinking about it!!! Still cheaper than a handful of recasts... SORRY... 'undercoated RARE' originals on eBay. (seriously, there must be more out there than were ever made in Nottingham)

If the release is close enough to be in the next White Dwarf I'll be a happy little subscriber...

They are and they aren't... You can't quite draw a straight line between them on IP grounds. I mean clearly they ARE, the timing of their creation alone shows that. But as far as the actual creatures, their reproductive method, the general design and fluff, they are very different beasts other than using human hosts to reproduce. But even that is quite different really when you get into the details. I would maintain Genestealers are very inspired by Aliens in terms of a feel, words snatched from the mood board so to speak, but the specifics were very different and original, I don't think they would ever have an IP problem on that front. Zerg from Tyranids on the other hand....

 MajorTom11 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

They have a vision for the army. If it includes that dormant IG/AM stuff, then it will. I think it is rather telling that the Genestealer Cult they chose to showcase for Deathwatch Overkill was not one of those "We have tanks, limos, and all kinds of military assets!" but rather just a ragtag bunch with converted mining equipment and looted autoguns from the PDF.

Um... I am surprised you are surprised to be honest, the aesthetic and design of the DWOK cultists is exactly inline with the original designs and weapons barring one thing only, the mining laser thingy in place of a conversion beamer. Otherwise the suits and guns are spot on and no surprise at all in any way if you were not expecting a radical deviation from the 2nd ed models. The military angle, and the limo, never actually existed before as models, only fluff and conversions in old 2nd ed compendium rules/wd I think.

So, there is room to expand into the military and limo if they wanted to, but that would be a deviation model wise, the models themselves are wholly consistent with the original designs. I sure hope they take the opportunity to officially branch out the models to militia/military styles and also would be great if some were even civilian'ish too, maybe being able to use the bodies etc as human IG militia on the other side of things too. I doubt they would go that far, but it would be cool

It's not "being surprised", like I said I just think it is rather telling that they opted for the generic mining suits and scavenged stuff rather than a full blown military backed Cult like many people seemed to choose to portray in their counts-as GSCs.

My own personal opinion is that they just seem to want to keep the two things separate at this point. They seemed to do similar when it came to the Chaos Cultists that they did for Dark Vengeance; they could have made a more expansive thing there with Guard levels of equipment...but they stuck with the kind of stuff that fluff tends to associate with Planetary Defense Forces rather than Guard(Autoguns/Autopistols and CCWs, Heavy Stubbers, Flamers, Shotguns vs heavy weapon teams, lasguns, etc) and the equipment tended to be the "scavenged armor" rather than the stuff we've seen from FW for their Renegade Guardsmen.

*shrug* Just my 2 cents though MT11.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Actually, the minis go one beyond the original models and include things shown in art but not in model form (Aberrants are inspired by the shirtless lump dude in 'that' classic piece of GS Cult art).

Aberrants being the one real new addition though right? I guess the Primus too, but that is more of a role than new biology, Patriarch updated to Broodlord aesthetic, but let's be honest the Fat big human face patriarch doesn't quite fit the modern aesthetic. Everything else that existed before, straight line A to B update.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

They have a vision for the army. If it includes that dormant IG/AM stuff, then it will. I think it is rather telling that the Genestealer Cult they chose to showcase for Deathwatch Overkill was not one of those "We have tanks, limos, and all kinds of military assets!" but rather just a ragtag bunch with converted mining equipment and looted autoguns from the PDF.

Um... I am surprised you are surprised to be honest, the aesthetic and design of the DWOK cultists is exactly inline with the original designs and weapons barring one thing only, the mining laser thingy in place of a conversion beamer. Otherwise the suits and guns are spot on and no surprise at all in any way if you were not expecting a radical deviation from the 2nd ed models. The military angle, and the limo, never actually existed before as models, only fluff and conversions in old 2nd ed compendium rules/wd I think.

So, there is room to expand into the military and limo if they wanted to, but that would be a deviation model wise, the models themselves are wholly consistent with the original designs. I sure hope they take the opportunity to officially branch out the models to militia/military styles and also would be great if some were even civilian'ish too, maybe being able to use the bodies etc as human IG militia on the other side of things too. I doubt they would go that far, but it would be cool

It's not "being surprised", like I said I just think it is rather telling that they opted for the generic mining suits and scavenged stuff rather than a full blown military backed Cult like many people seemed to choose to portray in their counts-as GSCs.

My own personal opinion is that they just seem to want to keep the two things separate at this point. They seemed to do similar when it came to the Chaos Cultists that they did for Dark Vengeance; they could have made a more expansive thing there with Guard levels of equipment...but they stuck with the kind of stuff that fluff tends to associate with Planetary Defense Forces rather than Guard(Autoguns/Autopistols and CCWs, Heavy Stubbers, Flamers, Shotguns vs heavy weapon teams, lasguns, etc) and the equipment tended to be the "scavenged armor" rather than the stuff we've seen from FW for their Renegade Guardsmen.

*shrug* Just my 2 cents though MT11.

I think the prevalance of military converted cult is simply a consequence of what models were available for people to convert in the first place... we're too many options for human source bodies to work with from GW. I think I am the only one that actually sculpted entire new models and mine took elements from the classic designs and mixed to varying degrees with Ig aesthetics here and there, making for a fairly big mix of no armor to flak. If there were more options for non-IG but non PA/Superhuman/Inq then we would have seen a lot more variety in peoples custom cults. In my mind, the military and mining and civilian could and should all be mixed up together. All representing the successive expansion of the cult kinda thing.

But you could and likely are right I must concede, it makes no sense to miss the opportunity business wise for the cross selling, but it makes total GW sense given their rules history.

Sorry, my speculation is based on realism, taking a look at the effort put into these kinds of mini-dexes when they aren't armies whose underwear goes clank for the emperor.

-I'm looking at the genestealer cult rules as the current "Death Masque" harlequin rules, but in reverse. The generic version of "The Purestrain princelings" is a basic unit of genestealers.

If anything, saying they may gain the PPs free USRs is possible. But GW changes basic stats exceedingly rarely, even when they make next to no sense and their pricing is based on game concepts that no longer exist (5th ed troop tax, for example). With genestealers this is compounded by the flatly superior hybrids, making players scratch their heads and wonder why genestealers bother to continue to evolve when they have 1st and 2nd gen hybrids that take so much less effort to create.

-GW has yet to do this with any unit. Buy a box of chaos cultists, they're the same snap fits from Dark Vengeance. KT Cassius box is the same as the DWO monopose. Genestealer Hybrids have no special weapons as yet, to add them they'd need to create a whole new sprue. Cultists they might do, but it would be completely unprecedented and the only reason to do it would be to add new weapon options. I also wouldn't be surprised to see new weapons added to Aberrants with a heavy box.

-We don't need transports, but remember: All the solutions and good things you mentioned only existed in the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin formation. We *might* get lucky and have GW realize they need those to function in a fluffy manner, and we might also see GW go "no, the reason GQB gets that is because in the fluff they're miners and they're popping out of the ground, so normally these units don't get infiltrate."

-I have no problem with AoC tyranids. BB tyranids makes absolutely no sense and for the most part would just be a way to powergame. The big problem I have is that currently if you don't have tyranids the GQB formation is almost unplayable because of the phenomenally lazy decision to make Genestealer cults ally just like 'nids, ie Come the Apoc with EVERYBODY.

An actual ally matrix entry is required here, and that would require gw to rewrite rules that already exist. By the Principle of GW Rules Inertia, I'll be pleasantly surprised by this but expect the opposite.

GSC should be

Armies of the Imperium - Convenience. They're designed around infiltrating human societies. I'm sorry you lumped the hyper-paranoid super space nazis in with the regular humans, but with the loads of fluff involving blood brothers, GSC need to be convenience with Imperium.

Eldar/Harlequins - Come the Apocalypse. Eldar are stated to have genestealer detecting technology of some sort or are able to psychically detect them.

Dark Eldar - Convenience. Sure, they might know about them, but they probably don't care. This is a race that hires weird xenos mercenaries all the time, including dangerous parasitic beings like the Medusae, and the dark eldar would have no problem helping out with a cult wanting to cause a civil war - that would turn a whole human planet into easy pickings.

Chaos - Desperation/maybe CTA. Genestealers are indistinguishable from regular humans that don't worship chaos to chaos. They would probably not want to ally except possibly to help destabilize a planet.

Necrons - CTA. Genestealers are probably marginally more dangerous humans to Necrons. What's the point of ridding the planet to a biological infestation of lesser beings to replace it with a different biological infestation of lesser beings?

Tau - CTA. The ethereals would probably be able to figure out which Tau were resisting mind control, and they'd definitely be wary of the obvious threat the genestealers represent.

Orks - Convenience. Ork broods are established in fluff, and as allies, why would the orks care?

Tau Broods are established in the fluff too, one of the Cain books I believe? Cain intentionally leaves a Genestealer infestion on a Tau ship after purging a human colony or some such, with the implication of the establishment of a cult? Some Tau Hybrids existed too unless I am off can anyone confirm?

the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, my speculation is based on realism, taking a look at the effort put into these kinds of mini-dexes when they aren't armies whose underwear goes clank for the emperor.

-I'm looking at the genestealer cult rules as the current "Death Masque" harlequin rules, but in reverse. The generic version of "The Purestrain princelings" is a basic unit of genestealers.

If anything, saying they may gain the PPs free USRs is possible. But GW changes basic stats exceedingly rarely, even when they make next to no sense and their pricing is based on game concepts that no longer exist (5th ed troop tax, for example). With genestealers this is compounded by the flatly superior hybrids, making players scratch their heads and wonder why genestealers bother to continue to evolve when they have 1st and 2nd gen hybrids that take so much less effort to create.

The generic version of "The Purestrain Princelings" is units of Genestealers that can be a minimum of 1 actually.

-GW has yet to do this with any unit. Buy a box of chaos cultists, they're the same snap fits from Dark Vengeance. KT Cassius box is the same as the DWO monopose. Genestealer Hybrids have no special weapons as yet, to add them they'd need to create a whole new sprue. Cultists they might do, but it would be completely unprecedented and the only reason to do it would be to add new weapon options. I also wouldn't be surprised to see new weapons added to Aberrants with a heavy box.

KT Cassius is the same as the DWO monopose, but the Deathwatch Kill Team box is not.

-We don't need transports, but remember: All the solutions and good things you mentioned only existed in the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin formation. We *might* get lucky and have GW realize they need those to function in a fluffy manner, and we might also see GW go "no, the reason GQB gets that is because in the fluff they're miners and they're popping out of the ground, so normally these units don't get infiltrate."

So you've seen the codex? What's in it?

-I have no problem with AoC tyranids. BB tyranids makes absolutely no sense and for the most part would just be a way to powergame. The big problem I have is that currently if you don't have tyranids the GQB formation is almost unplayable because of the phenomenally lazy decision to make Genestealer cults ally just like 'nids, ie Come the Apoc with EVERYBODY.

An actual ally matrix entry is required here, and that would require gw to rewrite rules that already exist. By the Principle of GW Rules Inertia, I'll be pleasantly surprised by this but expect the opposite.

GSC should be

Armies of the Imperium - Convenience. They're designed around infiltrating human societies. I'm sorry you lumped the hyper-paranoid super space nazis in with the regular humans, but with the loads of fluff involving blood brothers, GSC need to be convenience with Imperium.

Allies of Convenience represents not "infiltrating human societies" but taking control and creating your own society within that society, culling those who do not agree with you. It's during that stage when GSCs usually get exposed...so no. CTA is right.

Dark Eldar - Convenience. Sure, they might know about them, but they probably don't care. This is a race that hires weird xenos mercenaries all the time, including dangerous parasitic beings like the Medusae, and the dark eldar would have no problem helping out with a cult wanting to cause a civil war - that would turn a whole human planet into easy pickings.

Most likely wouldn't want to create something that's a literal beacon to summoning a force to devour an entire planet of humans that could belong to them.

 MajorTom11 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Regardless, this is a property they 100% wholly own, no major derivation from other sources. The name, the designs, the pedigree, all theirs, and that is exactly the kind of stuff they are focusing on for IP reasons.

Well, apart from being MASSIVELY influenced by Aliens... but yes, it's more original than derivative. And it's heavy on the nostalgia for long-time fans. That's why I bought two DW:OK boxes without thinking about it!!! Still cheaper than a handful of recasts... SORRY... 'undercoated RARE' originals on eBay. (seriously, there must be more out there than were ever made in Nottingham)

If the release is close enough to be in the next White Dwarf I'll be a happy little subscriber...

They are and they aren't... You can't quite draw a straight line between them on IP grounds. I mean clearly they ARE, the timing of their creation alone shows that. But as far as the actual creatures, their reproductive method, the general design and fluff, they are very different beasts other than using human hosts to reproduce. But even that is quite different really when you get into the details. I would maintain Genestealers are very inspired by Aliens in terms of a feel, words snatched from the mood board so to speak, but the specifics were very different and original, I don't think they would ever have an IP problem on that front. Zerg from Tyranids on the other hand....

Genestealer cults are far more heavily influenced by The Shadow Over Innsmouth I would think, what with the whole "creepy otherworldly beings taking over backwater societies and creating progressively nastier hybrid entities who are covered for by more human looking hybrids" schtick.

Genestealers themselves, yeah, Space Hulk was alien inspired, but a cult worshipping an otherworldly entity that wants to breed with humans as gods seems pretty cut and dry lovecraftian. I mean, look at that Magus. Where do you see something like that in Aliens?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Tau Broods are established in the fluff too, one of the Cain books I believe? Cain intentionally leaves a Genestealer infestion on a Tau ship after purging a human colony or some such, with the implication of the establishment of a cult? Some Tau Hybrids existed too unless I am off can anyone confirm?

Maybe. Most of the fluff for GSCs predated the tau, since 2nd ed their mentions have been few and far between.

Absolutely, I think the Cain book was the ONLY mention of them inside of a decade lol -

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Absolutely, I think the Cain book was the ONLY mention of them inside of a decade lol -

If memory serves the Cult infiltrated the human population of a tau occupied world, they couldn't infiltrate the tau themselves as the kroot were good at sniffing/tasting them out. The tau were as repulsed by the stealers as much as the guard were.

 xttz wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, I have very very very very very low expectations for this release.

I'm guessing:

-no genestealer stat changes despite them being woefully underpowered because GW can only errata changes to space marine units.

-Basically no ally capabilities with anything, no change from FAQ. Despite being the 'sneaky infiltrators that inveigle themselves in human society' they will be CTA with everybody, Convenience with Tyranids, making them next to impossible to feasibly create a list.

-IF they get new sprues, then they will be something like cultists with a couple extra weapon options. I'm anticipating just a repackage of DWO in much more expensive individual kits despite this being the absolute 100% worst way to drive sales. GW will then use the astronomically low sales to justify another 6 months in a row of loyalist space marines.

-No transports, no capabilities to work like the GQBroodkin formation works because of infiltrate/stealth/shroud/turn 1 charge. Basic detachment probably grants infiltrate. Sure, we could give them access to chimeras and guard vehicles like every marine faction+inquisition+sisters get access to rhinos and other marine vehicles, but that would require too much thought and effort.

If this thread is now going to provide speculation rather than news, can we at least make it slightly more positive speculation?

- While I agree Genestealers likely won't get any stat changes, I do think that the recent formation special rules will become standard and easily obtainable for them. One key part of this being free Stealth; something long needed for 'stealers. On top of this I think we'll see more formations that relax restrictions around infiltrate / outflank / turn 1 assaults, plus more opportunities to gain Shrouded. Generally I believe 'stealers will become more effective via special rules rather than new stat lines.

- New sprues for many of these units are pretty much a given when you take GW's recent history into account. These days the 'sculpting' work on the kits is done in CAD software, with automated systems to produce injection molds at a far lower cost than before. This means the same design elements can be re-used in both snap-fit and standard multi-part kits with little extra work. Turning the Deathwatch GSC designs into AdMech/Harlequin-style individual kits seems the most likely scenario to me.

- Why do we need transports in an army themed around infiltration and sneak-assaults? Basically every army these days has obligatory flyers, transports and overpriced walkers. Personally I'll be way happier to see well-thought-out rules for assaulting from reserve than needing to spend £40 on some AV11 metal box armed with a heavy stubber. The assault grenades, telepathy and turn 1 charge rules in the Ghosar formation show that GW are at least aware of some Tyranid weaknesses, and I like to believe they will continue this approach while keeping a unique character for GSC armies.

- I'm starting to think that people who bemoan the lack of Battle Brothers are mostly annoyed that they can't abuse the horrifically broken scenario of cheap ML2 telepathy alongside huge Codex: Tyranids creatures. AoC with Tyranids is still a pretty good deal and will open up a lot of options once GSCs have a more flexible unit list to build from. If GSC lists continue to focus on the infiltration / early assault niche with multiple cheap units, it could even make some allied Tyranid ground-based lists more viable by giving them time to advance safely.

Sorry, you think Invisible Tyranid MCs would be "horrifically broken"? That's absurd. Most of these MCs aren't even close to being viable as is, and even if they were invisible, do you think they'd be able to compete with any other Imperium Deathstar? I wanted the ability to actually run something like a Haruspex without pulling my hair out because it got fragged before getting anywhere near assault range. Of course, GW couldn't let me (and other Tyranid people not looking to game the system) have that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, my speculation is based on realism, taking a look at the effort put into these kinds of mini-dexes when they aren't armies whose underwear goes clank for the emperor.

-I'm looking at the genestealer cult rules as the current "Death Masque" harlequin rules, but in reverse. The generic version of "The Purestrain princelings" is a basic unit of genestealers.

If anything, saying they may gain the PPs free USRs is possible. But GW changes basic stats exceedingly rarely, even when they make next to no sense and their pricing is based on game concepts that no longer exist (5th ed troop tax, for example). With genestealers this is compounded by the flatly superior hybrids, making players scratch their heads and wonder why genestealers bother to continue to evolve when they have 1st and 2nd gen hybrids that take so much less effort to create.

-GW has yet to do this with any unit. Buy a box of chaos cultists, they're the same snap fits from Dark Vengeance. KT Cassius box is the same as the DWO monopose. Genestealer Hybrids have no special weapons as yet, to add them they'd need to create a whole new sprue. Cultists they might do, but it would be completely unprecedented and the only reason to do it would be to add new weapon options. I also wouldn't be surprised to see new weapons added to Aberrants with a heavy box.

-We don't need transports, but remember: All the solutions and good things you mentioned only existed in the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin formation. We *might* get lucky and have GW realize they need those to function in a fluffy manner, and we might also see GW go "no, the reason GQB gets that is because in the fluff they're miners and they're popping out of the ground, so normally these units don't get infiltrate."

-I have no problem with AoC tyranids. BB tyranids makes absolutely no sense and for the most part would just be a way to powergame. The big problem I have is that currently if you don't have tyranids the GQB formation is almost unplayable because of the phenomenally lazy decision to make Genestealer cults ally just like 'nids, ie Come the Apoc with EVERYBODY.

An actual ally matrix entry is required here, and that would require gw to rewrite rules that already exist. By the Principle of GW Rules Inertia, I'll be pleasantly surprised by this but expect the opposite.

GSC should be

Armies of the Imperium - Convenience. They're designed around infiltrating human societies. I'm sorry you lumped the hyper-paranoid super space nazis in with the regular humans, but with the loads of fluff involving blood brothers, GSC need to be convenience with Imperium.

Eldar/Harlequins - Come the Apocalypse. Eldar are stated to have genestealer detecting technology of some sort or are able to psychically detect them.

Dark Eldar - Convenience. Sure, they might know about them, but they probably don't care. This is a race that hires weird xenos mercenaries all the time, including dangerous parasitic beings like the Medusae, and the dark eldar would have no problem helping out with a cult wanting to cause a civil war - that would turn a whole human planet into easy pickings.

Chaos - Desperation/maybe CTA. Genestealers are indistinguishable from regular humans that don't worship chaos to chaos. They would probably not want to ally except possibly to help destabilize a planet.

Necrons - CTA. Genestealers are probably marginally more dangerous humans to Necrons. What's the point of ridding the planet to a biological infestation of lesser beings to replace it with a different biological infestation of lesser beings?

Tau - CTA. The ethereals would probably be able to figure out which Tau were resisting mind control, and they'd definitely be wary of the obvious threat the genestealers represent.

Orks - Convenience. Ork broods are established in fluff, and as allies, why would the orks care?

I disagree with you about BB Tyranids (but that's another kettle of fish that many people have discussed), but otherwise, this is a really cool ally chart. The idea of GSC mercenaries working for Dark Eldar has me incredibly excited...

Mercenaries, pets, whatever. If you think the DE would pass up on capturing a creature that could

1) inflict horrific, entertaining pain on a human being

2) turn boring old common as dirt humans-or anything really- into varied and interesting arena combatants

3) Summon an incredibly distracting tyranid swarm to any world they want

4) Fight itself, very effectively

They'll keep it in the webway.

the_scotsman wrote:
Mercenaries, pets, whatever. If you think the DE would pass up on capturing a creature that could

1) inflict horrific, entertaining pain on a human being

2) turn boring old common as dirt humans-or anything really- into varied and interesting arena combatants

3) Summon an incredibly distracting tyranid swarm to any world they want

4) Fight itself, very effectively

They'll keep it in the webway.

Most Dark Elda interest in Tyranids of any kind comes from the Haemonculus Covens with the intent to explore, understand and hopefully exploit their increadibly adaptive genetic make up, it's why Urien Rakarth had several Covens help him steal a whole planet that was in the middle of a Tyranid invasion (and scre over a bunch of Exodites/Saim-Hann for the fun of it).

Frankly youre reasoning for them being AoC, or even Desparate Allies, doesn't wash, they will attack, kill and/or enslave Cultists the same way they would the rest of the planets population without a care and the races that they do use as mercenaries are tend to be extra dimensional with longstanding ties to Commoragh already, or little more than slaves as is.

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Mercenaries, pets, whatever. If you think the DE would pass up on capturing a creature that could

1) inflict horrific, entertaining pain on a human being

2) turn boring old common as dirt humans-or anything really- into varied and interesting arena combatants

3) Summon an incredibly distracting tyranid swarm to any world they want

4) Fight itself, very effectively

They'll keep it in the webway.

Most Dark Elda interest in Tyranids of any kind comes from the Haemonculus Covens with the intent to explore, understand and hopefully exploit their increadibly adaptive genetic make up, it's why Urien Rakarth had several Covens help him steal a whole planet that was in the middle of a Tyranid invasion (and scre over a bunch of Exodites/Saim-Hann for the fun of it).

Frankly youre reasoning for them being AoC, or even Desparate Allies, doesn't wash, they will attack, kill and/or enslave Cultists the same way they would the rest of the planets population without a care and the races that they do use as mercenaries are tend to be extra dimensional with longstanding ties to Commoragh already, or little more than slaves as is.

Obviously they'd be little more than slaves. Members of a Genestealer cult fielded as allies by Dark Eldar would be no different than the various Beasts or Court of the Archon members that exist as part of the DE army list. But that makes sense for the Allies of Convenience level.

Of course they're not going to go out and sign a mercenary contract with a Cult, but in a situation where fluff is plausible (the Dark Eldar using the cult as a convenient destabilizing tool, or as slave combatants) the ally matrix should be permissive.

Otherwise, why bother having ally levels besides Battle Brothers and Come the Apocalypse? For any other ally level, you require some kind of Narrative Forgery as to why these armies are operating together without killing each other.

the_scotsman wrote:

Orks - Convenience. Ork broods are established in fluff, and as allies, why would the orks care?

Ork cults were miserable, barely able to exist temporary holdovers for the genestealers involved, even back in the day, they existed on the very edges of the freebootaz and renegades of orkish society, only the desperate among those elements tolerating them to use as cannon fodder. It was made clear, even back in the background of those times, that genestealers trying to establish on strong ork worlds of the established clans would be stomped flat in very short order, moreover that the enormous psychic wall of force generated by the orks acted in a very disruptive manner to stealers trying to establish a gestalt colony.

Orks don't like bugz, orks will stomp bugz as soon as possible because the bugz aren't a) green n propa or b) have anything worth tolerating them for to make it worthwhile like resources, weapons, slaves etc.

Yeah the ork cult fluff basically said the orks instantly knew it if there were stealers among them (out of the psychic loop I guess) and would kill them pretty much on sight. It was only the smallest groups that could be infected en mass, they never got very far into greater ork society.

That being said, that was before orks grew from spores so maybe they are incompatible now, who knows.

So when do we expect the Pre-order to come in, not this Saturday but the following Saturday the 24th for pre-orders and be able to buy on October 1st?

I love how I mentioned Aliens inspiration, then said GS Cult was largely original, yet still see several posts trying to prove me wrong in some way. Read what I wrote! I only politely and conversationally rebutted that GS Cult was 100% original IP. Stealers and reproducing via human hosts is Alien/Aliens-derived, blatantly. The rest is original or from numerous other SF tropes. Let's not score points that aren't there to score, peeps!

the_scotsman wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Mercenaries, pets, whatever. If you think the DE would pass up on capturing a creature that could

1) inflict horrific, entertaining pain on a human being

2) turn boring old common as dirt humans-or anything really- into varied and interesting arena combatants

3) Summon an incredibly distracting tyranid swarm to any world they want

4) Fight itself, very effectively

They'll keep it in the webway.

Most Dark Elda interest in Tyranids of any kind comes from the Haemonculus Covens with the intent to explore, understand and hopefully exploit their increadibly adaptive genetic make up, it's why Urien Rakarth had several Covens help him steal a whole planet that was in the middle of a Tyranid invasion (and scre over a bunch of Exodites/Saim-Hann for the fun of it).

Frankly youre reasoning for them being AoC, or even Desparate Allies, doesn't wash, they will attack, kill and/or enslave Cultists the same way they would the rest of the planets population without a care and the races that they do use as mercenaries are tend to be extra dimensional with longstanding ties to Commoragh already, or little more than slaves as is.

Obviously they'd be little more than slaves. Members of a Genestealer cult fielded as allies by Dark Eldar would be no different than the various Beasts or Court of the Archon members that exist as part of the DE army list. But that makes sense for the Allies of Convenience level.

Of course they're not going to go out and sign a mercenary contract with a Cult, but in a situation where fluff is plausible (the Dark Eldar using the cult as a convenient destabilizing tool, or as slave combatants) the ally matrix should be permissive.

Otherwise, why bother having ally levels besides Battle Brothers and Come the Apocalypse? For any other ally level, you require some kind of Narrative Forgery as to why these armies are operating together without killing each other.

If we're going to make fielding captured slaves for the Dark Eldar a thing then everyone should be AoC for them. There's is no fluff based reason that these two factions should ever work together, there goals are diametrically opposed with the one out to raid, pillage and destroy in lightning fast raids whilst the other is trying to build it's power base and either take over or at least undermine the control of a planet in readiness for the Hive Fleet. Then only reason a GSC would work for a Kabal is if it was tricked into it, which is quite likely, ut in no way could it ever be considered as actually working alongside each other.

it's also why GSC should be Battle Brothers with Tyranids, once a Hive Fleet gets into town the Hive Mind is going to completely take over and make use of them, only the Genestealers would have left system fleeing from the Hive Mind, they have no use for the Cult by then, and even that isn't guranteed.

Hmmm... a Genestealer-Haemonculus hybrid sounds interesting. With a retinue of hybrid-wracks, aberrants as Grotesques and Taloi/Cronoi and a steady supply of new hosts from people with the wish to have children. You can hide purestrains in your laboratory and nobody will be wary of your additional limbs and ugly face. You could even convince the hipsters from the spire that having a bulbous head and an extra arm with an alien claw is the newest trend, so your brothers can freely roam Commorragh without suspicion. It's a dream job!