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 Frazzled wrote:

You can say what you want but if another individual is waving a pistol, thats justified in any jurisdiction anywhere on the globe.

Just waving a pistol in the presence of the police won't get you shot in most of the 1st or 2nd world, especially when it's a clear suicide-by-cop situation (which curiously, seems to be a US phenomenon). Pointing a gun *at* a cop will get you shot everywhere, but merely holding one and threatening won't.

Herzlos wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You can say what you want but if another individual is waving a pistol, thats justified in any jurisdiction anywhere on the globe.

Just waving a pistol in the presence of the police won't get you shot in most of the 1st or 2nd world

And you know this how exactly? Please cite some actual statistics else you're just making stuff up.
In much of the world the police are military and will shoot you where you stand. Later your family might disappear.

 Frazzled wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You can say what you want but if another individual is waving a pistol, thats justified in any jurisdiction anywhere on the globe.

Just waving a pistol in the presence of the police won't get you shot in most of the 1st or 2nd world

And you know this how exactly? Please cite some actual statistics else you're just making stuff up.
In much of the world the police are military and will shoot you where you stand. Later your family might disappear.

He said 1st and 2nd worlds.

But hey feel free to come to Europe. Will be refreshing experience to be in a country where you don't have to worry about getting shot by police first thing up. Arrested if you do something illegal yes, shot not so much.

As much as it might stun americans in most 1st and 2nd world countries police aren't looking out to shoot people.

tneva82 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You can say what you want but if another individual is waving a pistol, thats justified in any jurisdiction anywhere on the globe.

Just waving a pistol in the presence of the police won't get you shot in most of the 1st or 2nd world

And you know this how exactly? Please cite some actual statistics else you're just making stuff up.
In much of the world the police are military and will shoot you where you stand. Later your family might disappear.

He said 1st and 2nd worlds.

But hey feel free to come to Europe. Will be refreshing experience to be in a country where you don't have to worry about getting shot by police first thing up. Arrested if you do something illegal yes, shot not so much.

As much as it might stun americans in most 1st and 2nd world countries police aren't looking out to shoot people.

Evidently Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, and Mother Russia are not included in your definition of Europe.

As noted, the US is in the Americas. It is a completely different situation. We may have more shootings but on the positive - in addition to not having to have another country from a completely different continent save us from the Nazis and then the Commies - we have something called Chicago Deep Dish Pizza, and of course TexMex.

tneva82 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You can say what you want but if another individual is waving a pistol, thats justified in any jurisdiction anywhere on the globe.

Just waving a pistol in the presence of the police won't get you shot in most of the 1st or 2nd world

And you know this how exactly? Please cite some actual statistics else you're just making stuff up.
In much of the world the police are military and will shoot you where you stand. Later your family might disappear.

He said 1st and 2nd worlds.

But hey feel free to come to Europe. Will be refreshing experience to be in a country where you don't have to worry about getting shot by police first thing up. Arrested if you do something illegal yes, shot not so much.

As much as it might stun americans in most 1st and 2nd world countries police aren't looking out to shoot people.

Please do trouble yourself to read the police memorial page link I posted, which tells of officers trying to talk suspects with a gun down and got killed along with other officers or the news links posted where the first officer(the one who got fired) said it was a justified shooting.
On second thought, don't bother since it's easier for you to have outrage based on the writings of a biased journalist.

Whilst there are issues in Russia with people disappearing, they aren't inherent to the police force, and I'm confident than if you wave a gun about in Eastern Europe, Russia or most of Asia you won't be summarily executed. You'll still be arrested, but you won't be shot dead in the street.

I can't say what'd happen in Mexico, Africa or the Middle East though.

You needed France to help against the redcoats though.

Relapse wrote:

Please do trouble yourself to read the police memorial page link I posted, which tells of officers trying to talk suspects with a gun down and got killed along with other officers or the news links posted where the first officer(the one who got fired) said it was a justified shooting.
On second thought, don't bother since it's easier for you to have outrage based on the writings of a biased journalist.

I entirely understand your point, in the US cops can be randomly killed in innocent looking situations. It happens over here from time to time too.

I still don't think that justifies shooting people who aren't yet a threat, restraint or taking precautions is fine though. Execution for future-crime is not OK.

In the case we're talking about here, cop #1 de-escalates the situation, won't help the guy commit suicide, cops #2 & #3 turn up, re-escalate and shoot the guy. How is that OK?

Herzlos wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Please do trouble yourself to read the police memorial page link I posted, which tells of officers trying to talk suspects with a gun down and got killed along with other officers or the news links posted where the first officer(the one who got fired) said it was a justified shooting.
On second thought, don't bother since it's easier for you to have outrage based on the writings of a biased journalist.

I entirely understand your point, in the US cops can be randomly killed in innocent looking situations. It happens over here from time to time too.

I still don't think that justifies shooting people who aren't yet a threat, restraint or taking precautions is fine though. Execution for future-crime is not OK.

In the case we're talking about here, cop #1 de-escalates the situation, won't help the guy commit suicide, cops #2 & #3 turn up, re-escalate and shoot the guy. How is that OK?

Because people can use anything as an excuse to make something alright. This journalist has a bias, so we shouldn't be interested in this. Because we are "outraged." Which we should be, because we have been getting almost constant news about the cops making dumb/bad calls and getting away from it clean. Then we have a guy who made a good call, then he lost his job. We are "outraged" about this, but because the journalist has a bias, it is suddenly the wrong kind of outrage to some people.

Relapse is running a pretty cute character assassination campaign in order to discredit the situation. Some people are taking it.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
You needed France to help against the redcoats though.

Vive Le France! Vive Le Brandy!
All Europe thanks France. Without France Frazzled would have had to stay in Europe and annoy Europeans in person.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Please do trouble yourself to read the police memorial page link I posted, which tells of officers trying to talk suspects with a gun down and got killed along with other officers or the news links posted where the first officer(the one who got fired) said it was a justified shooting.
On second thought, don't bother since it's easier for you to have outrage based on the writings of a biased journalist.

I entirely understand your point, in the US cops can be randomly killed in innocent looking situations. It happens over here from time to time too.

I still don't think that justifies shooting people who aren't yet a threat, restraint or taking precautions is fine though. Execution for future-crime is not OK.

In the case we're talking about here, cop #1 de-escalates the situation, won't help the guy commit suicide, cops #2 & #3 turn up, re-escalate and shoot the guy. How is that OK?

If they are waiving a pistol in your direction that legally constitutes a threat. How are you not understanding this?

Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

Assassinating Mozzie's character? He's shown no indication he is a cot lover (reminder, cat lovers are really hollow inside).

Herzlos? I am not assassinating his character, I cannot understand how that is not understood that someone waiving a pistol at you does not constitute reasonable fear of imminent death or serious harm. Multiple courts, statutes, and formerly British Common Law support my position.

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

Like, check your bias, man.

 Frazzled wrote:

If they are waiving a pistol in your direction that legally constitutes a threat. How are you not understanding this?

Because I'm from a culture where people don't get shot for something like that. Over here, waving a pistol about isn't death worthy. Pointing it at someone is. We might be talking at cross purposes because I said "waving a gun about" and you replied "waving a pistol in your direction".

I'll probably never understand US gun culture, because the country I'm from banned guns after it's first (and only, I think) school shooting, and the populations response was "yeah, good point, we don't really need guns".

Even in this case, we've had no indication that said victim pointed a gun towards anyone, though he may have done in order to trigger suicide-by-cop.

Because I'm from a culture where people don't get shot for something like that.
***Horse pucky. Your flag says Ireland. You had combat troops in your country just a short time ago and people waving guns would have been machine gunned or disappeared by Britain's special units.

Over here, waving a pistol about isn't death worthy.
***Again Horse Pucky. Please show where that is actually the case.

Pointing it at someone is. We might be talking at cross purposes because I said "waving a gun about" and you replied "waving a pistol in your direction".
***Read the articles. He was waiving it at the officers when they showed up.

I'll probably never understand US gun culture, because the country I'm from banned guns after it's first
***IRA ring a bell? bombs, rockets, and mortars...oh my...

(and only, I think) school shooting, and the populations response was "yeah, good point, we don't really need guns".
***IRA ring a bell? bombs, rockets, and mortars...oh my...

I'm not from Ireland. I'm running via an Irish proxy. I'm from Mainland UK (Scotland).

I can't cite a single case over here where someone was shot just for having a gun in the open. Plenty of people being arrested though. The few UK shootings have either been anti-terror units overstepping, or after long stand-offs.

To be fair, none of the IRA weapons were legal, either.

Herzlos wrote:
I'm not from Ireland. I'm running via an Irish proxy. I'm from Mainland UK (Scotland).

I can't cite a single case over here where someone was shot just for having a gun in the open. Plenty of people being arrested though. The few UK shootings have either been anti-terror units overstepping, or after long stand-offs.

So you have no actual evidence to support your statement that people pointing weapons don't get shot. Got it.

The first responding cop, Mader, correctly identified the man with the pistol, Williams, as being a suicidal man with a gun. Since Williams wanted to commit suicide by forcing the cops to shoot him, Mader's refusal to shoot Williams during their conversation with Williams pointing his pistol at the ground, the arrival of the other 2 cops gave Williams an opportunity to confront more cops and try to get them to shoot him. Williams approached/charged those cops waving his pistol and got shot since his aggressive behavior presented an immediate threat to the officers.

What is tragic about this situation is that Mader was doing the right thing when he responded and Williams might have been talked down from his suicide attempt if Mader had more time to deal with the situation in a de-escalating manner.

What's left out of the reports of the incident is how much time elapsed between Mader's arrival on scene and the arrival of the back up cops, whether or not Mader was able to communicate to dispatch or the other cops that Williams was a suicidal man with a gun not a homicidal man with a gun, whether or not Mader had a reasonable opportunity to restrain Wiliams prior to the arrival of the other cops.

Having the scene take a turn for the worse like that didn't have to happen and probably shouldn't have happened but it's unlikely that the public will ever learn all the details of the situation and since it ended in a "good shoot" it's unlikely the DA or PD will see a need to revise any policies or procedures to prevent a similar incident from happening in the future.

 Frazzled wrote:

So you have no actual evidence to support your statement that people pointing weapons don't get shot. Got it.

Yeah, people not getting shot doesn't make the news over here.

Best statistics I've seen on police shooting is here:
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/reports/killed-by-police-firearms.html

Though it doesn't give any real details. Only 20 civilians shot by police in 11 years though, so there isn't much to go on.
Considering that according to this 2008 article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm), record gun-crime incidents is in the thousands per year, that's a very percentage of incidents that result in a death.

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

I thought I was the assassin here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

Like, check your bias, man.

Better yet, you can check the bias of the man leading you around by your nose and ignore the fact that another article stated the man got shot as he approached the other officers waving his gun around or that the cop who got fired called it a justified shooting.

It's sad the man got shot, but it was his choice to have it happen.


Once again, a little information on the man whose writing has you so heated up


http://shameproject.com/profile/radley-balko/

Again I can agree that, given the information available, that the first officer should not have been wacked. That does not however, mean that the second officers were wrong to protect themselves.

 Frazzled wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

You can say what you want but if another individual is waving a pistol, thats justified in any jurisdiction anywhere on the globe.

Just waving a pistol in the presence of the police won't get you shot in most of the 1st or 2nd world

And you know this how exactly? Please cite some actual statistics else you're just making stuff up.
In much of the world the police are military and will shoot you where you stand. Later your family might disappear.

He said 1st and 2nd worlds.

But hey feel free to come to Europe. Will be refreshing experience to be in a country where you don't have to worry about getting shot by police first thing up. Arrested if you do something illegal yes, shot not so much.

As much as it might stun americans in most 1st and 2nd world countries police aren't looking out to shoot people.

Evidently Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, and Mother Russia are not included in your definition of Europe.

As noted, the US is in the Americas. It is a completely different situation. We may have more shootings but on the positive - in addition to not having to have another country from a completely different continent save us from the Nazis and then the Commies - we have something called Chicago Deep Dish Pizza, and of course TexMex.

Actually, Eastern Europe, Southern Europe and Russia all see extremely low levels of police violence compared to the US. And besides having less shootings, even more positive - in addition of course to having the courage to do the actual fighting against the Nazis, rather than just wait for the moment victory is certain and then go in to claim all the glory (unless of course you are Italian, then you were the Nazi...) - we have a cuisine unrivalled in its glorious variations, including some of the world's greatest foods like pizza or borsch. Europe hell yeah

Ukraine disagrees. The Balkans disagree.
Dissenters in Russia disagree.

And in addition to having less shootings we also had the courage to do the actual fighting against the Nazis, rather than just wait for the moment victory is certain and then go in to claim all the glory.

Which do you prefer: the IS-3 or the T55 (the replacement for the T34)? I don't know. If I were going off to fight the evil Hitlerites and their Western cohorts in 1959 I'd go with the IS-3. That big old 122mm just says "dosvadonya" to me, and it has heavier armor if I am not mistaken.

 Frazzled wrote:
Ukraine disagrees. The Balkans disagree.
Dissenters in Russia disagree.

Ukraine has a civil war going on, and even there they manage to have less police shootings than in the US... That is saying something.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Ukraine disagrees. The Balkans disagree.
Dissenters in Russia disagree.

Ukraine has a civil war going on, and even there they manage to have less police shootings than in the US... That is saying something.

When the police are military and "guerrillas" (speaking Russian) I don't believe you.

Also see my edited question to you.

 Frazzled wrote:
Again I can agree that, given the information available, that the first officer should not have been wacked. That does not however, mean that the second officers were wrong to protect themselves.

I'm basically in agreement with this. I would add though that I also agree that the second and third cops should have hung back and let Mader continue deescalating the situation, their presence is what allowed the guy to succeed in his suicide by cop plan. Then again, we don't know 100% how it went down, so I'm not judging them for the shoot. I'm just surprised by the firing and the "You put two other officers in danger" statement when they showed up after he did, and put themselves in danger, if they were in danger at all.

Relapse wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

I thought I was the assassin here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

Like, check your bias, man.

Better yet, you can check the bias of the man leading you around by your nose and ignore the fact that another article stated the man got shot as he approached the other officers waving his gun around or that the cop who got fired called it a justified shooting.

It's sad the man got shot, but it was his choice to have it happen.


Once again, a little information on the man whose writing has you so heated up


http://shameproject.com/profile/radley-balko/

Are you saying that suicide by cop is okay? It probably was a justified shoot in the eyes of the department. That doesn't mean it is a justified shoot in general. Shooting a suicidal person is not okay. Are you saying that the way the mentally ill are treated by cops is something we do not need to discuss, because one guy posted an article with a bias?

Your entire argument is this guy has bias and we aren't seeing the facts. We are, you just don't like how we are interpreting them.

A mentally ill person who was attempting to commit suicide by cop succeeded, despite this cops best efforts. He was let go because of it. That is messed up.

Shooting a suicidal person is not okay.

A suicidal person can still harm others. There have been countless examples of that, not including suicide bombers.

 Frazzled wrote:
Shooting a suicidal person is not okay.

A suicidal person can still harm others. There have been countless examples of that, not including suicide bombers.

Sure they can, but in this case was he? That is the problem, our police are not trained to deal with these situations. If the first cop had continued having a 1 on 1 conversation, what would have happened. He would not have been shot, not just because the mans gun was not loaded, but also because how is he going to be shot by the cop if he has just shot and killed the cop? The man was clearly posturing in an attempt to get the cops to react. As soon as he said "just shoot me" you know that is what is going on. Sure, cops go out and put their lives on the line every day. That is their job. Just the same as any healthcare worker goes out and puts their life on the line every day of work. Yet, I cannot hit a person attacking me. I am very limited in how I may defend myself, even in a deadly situation. But cops, shoot first then ask questions. Seems kind of silly, right? Both professions are there to help people. Only one is allowed to defend themselves.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

I thought I was the assassin here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Stop assassinating his character Frazzled.

Like, check your bias, man.

Better yet, you can check the bias of the man leading you around by your nose and ignore the fact that another article stated the man got shot as he approached the other officers waving his gun around or that the cop who got fired called it a justified shooting.

It's sad the man got shot, but it was his choice to have it happen.


Once again, a little information on the man whose writing has you so heated up


http://shameproject.com/profile/radley-balko/

Are you saying that suicide by cop is okay? It probably was a justified shoot in the eyes of the department. That doesn't mean it is a justified shoot in general. Shooting a suicidal person is not okay. Are you saying that the way the mentally ill are treated by cops is something we do not need to discuss, because one guy posted an article with a bias?

Your entire argument is this guy has bias and we aren't seeing the facts. We are, you just don't like how we are interpreting them.

A mentally ill person who was attempting to commit suicide by cop succeeded, despite this cops best efforts. He was let go because of it. That is messed up.

I know of a real good incident where the cops beat a mentally ill person to death where the thugs should have been strung up by their heels and it pissed me and any right thinking person off that they got away with it.
This, however is not even in the same league, and as I said earlier, even the fired cop, said it was a justified shooting.