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So, Traitor’s hate has finally leaked. Of course, now everyone is interested – how chaos lovers love now, have they risen up, or are they still biting the dust. While my book is traveling to me, I’d like to describe main rules and give some insights about their playability.

About myself: Have been playing CSM since late 5th Edition, truly love this army and collect them more for pleasure than for kicking asses. However, I’ve tried to take them for the local tournament and took the 1st place.


Let’s start. I won’t speculate on the background – let’s leave it for separate post when my book arrives.

The main point – is that we’ve got a Decurion! Black Crusade Detachment Let’s see what it gives. It’s necessary to mention that only units with Chaos Space Marines faction can join this detachment. So – no Crimson Slaughter possessed in there. As usual – you have to take one core formation and one auxiliary. But you can take any number of them – and this really makes me happy – not all of modern codex’s can do so. Also, remember that there are 5 command formations available.


So, what bonuses does the detachment itself give?

Re-rolling warlord traits as a must. And then comes interesting stuff. All units have Hatred to armies of Imperium. Note – not only Space Marines, but the hole Imperium. That means, Knights, Mechanicum and Astra Militarum are also invited to the party. Almost half of the codex’s? in fact. Moreover, The Veterans of the Long War rule can now be taken for free. (Who needs Black Legion Supplement now) – so, that means the whole army with 9-10 leadership. Pretty nice.

Another rule is even more interesting – at the start of each of your turns you can roll on Chaos Boons table for any character in the list. Theoretically that lets you to boost your warlord to unstoppable killing machine, or…turn into chaos spawn at the beginning of the game.


Good? More likely yes than no. Some point that there is still no free transport, but listen, GW can’t give the same bonus to every army. And CSM still don’t have droppods – so this is not a big problem. Our bonuses are still useful and can really affect the game. Eldar, for example, just run fixed 6 inches.



Core- formations.

What’s the basis of our army? There are 3 completely different choices.

The 1st and meant to be the main has come from Black Legion book with some changes.

You must have

1 Lord (can be changed for every named character)

1-3 units of Chosen\Terminators\Posessed (more likely you’ll take chosen. Or termies as a chip melta-drop. Posessed are still useless)

2-6 units of Chaos Space Marines (Quite reasonable and expected)

1-3 units of Bikers\Raptors\Warp-talons(the choice is also not hard. Bikers are obviously cheaper and more effective)

1-3 units of Havocs\Hellbruts (so – Havocs)

You can also take a Sorcerer or Ahriman.



What do we get?

1st and the main – Objective Secured special rule. That strongly rises CSM up among many other Decurion-style formations. Regarding the possibility to take a lot of mobile units that gives a particular advantage in objective holding. Definitely plus.

Another rule stacks with the whole detachment’s one – when a character Rolls on Chaos Boon table – he can do it twice and choose either one or both results. Also came from Black Legion. So – our Chaos Lord can become a spawn TWICE. In fact, it’s mostly positive since the possibility of choice gives enough flexibility and lets to maximize effectiveness.

Good?

Definitely yes. It’s visible that GW has taken the lesson from previous supplements and corrected the mistakes. This formation matches background and nice rules. You can easily control objectives and develop your warlord. Moreover, the unit choice is wide and you can adjust it for your style of the game.

Well, we don’t have free transport, but the main rule is still quite useful.

How to play?

Lord and Sorcerer – you can choose as you like.

Classical Chosen on Rhino with meltas or plasmas. Or 3 termies with combi-meltas – depending on your tactics and free points. Both can get to every place of the battlefield really quick. But if you like terminators – better keep them, they have a nice auxiliary.

2 groups of 5 CSM on Rhinos with meltas – go for objective markers and use your Objective Secured in full power!

Bikers – also common style. 2 meltas, combi-melta for champion. – Fast, dangerous, lives long (Nobody took your mark of Nurgle). You can also take raptors with meltas – but again, better keep them for the auxiliary.

Havocs with auto-cannons. Classical. Hellbrut can be more useful on auxiliary.

In the end we get a formation with a lot of fast meltas, really flexible. In particular – it’s the same Combined Arms, but with obvious advantages. The one drawback – kinda expensive – minimum 650 points with bare lord.

However, if you’d like to go cheap, there’s a second core-formation – The lost and the Damned. It seems to be one of the cheapest core-formations ever. It includes 1 Dark Apostle, and 4-9 units of Chaos Cultists. 305 points with default upgrades (you don’t need any other, though)



What do we get?

Quite a funny rule – A tide of traitors – every destroyed cultists unit can return back on 4+ from the Outflank. The idea itself isn’t new, but now vanilla CSM also have it.

2nd rule – Apostol shares his Zealot to all formation’s unit in 6 inches. Not really useful, but why not.

Good?

Yes. Cheap core-formation, that doesn’t kill anyone, but leaves more space for your auxiliaries. Besides, the cultists, returned from Outflank can take key objectives behind enemy lines or gold enemy unit in close combat.

How to play?

Send Apostle to any other unit, where you l need him and put the cultists on the objectives. Or let them die and them return from the Outflank. You shouldn’t really expect them to survive against guys like Eldar or Tau.

Well, if the 1st 2 formations are quite competitive, the 3rd is…. something weird.

Kharn (or Khorne lord with free mark) and 4-8 units of Berserkers. Yeap, just like that. At least, not 8, as the rumors said.



What do we get?

Fleet. And +3 inches for charge. Ok. Red Rain rule, which lets you once per game to hit in the movement phase if you are locked in combat. And then again. The same rule as Orks starter has. Could be good, but… But it’s declared once per game and for every unit – so if only one is locked on combat, you’ll have to stand and watch with other ones.

Good? No. Well, the rules themselves are fine. But don’t forget, that berserkers’ cost hasn’t changed and so did their combat abilities. They are still a melee unit of 105 points for 5 men with 1(!) attack in the profile. And CSM still don’t have a good assault transport. The most of them will be shot down while approaching and the others will do nothing in close combat. Kharn is still good, but nothing prevents you from taking him to warband.

How to play?

Honestly, I don’t know. If you want – give them rhinos and send forward. Without upgrades it is 620 points – almost like the warband, but not as flexible and lacks good rules.


So – 2\3 core formations are quite good. A lot of options, almost no restricts, good rules. The 3rd – well, there’s always a black sheep…

Command formations.

There are…one. And it’s not the formation. It’s only single Lord\Sorcerer\Daemon Prince. And you can swap Lord and Sorc for any named character. It’s perfect, really – without any restricts you can take any characters in any combinations. But of course, you will use it for taking more Sorcerers.

All that we’ve looked through today is mostly good. Everything is playable and leaves a room to maneuver without buying tones of new models. This tendency is kept in auxiliaries. But we’ll discuss them in second part of this review. Thanks for the attention!

eldar "just" running six inches is basically giving everyone in the army a jump pack almost.

I had a read through of the book, I agree with pretty much all of your points. I thought it was good, it hasn't raised Chaos up to Eldar or Tau levels of power, but they're certainly not on the bottom any more. Plus that Kharn model looks incredible.

I like the points you make, they certainly are competitive now. That being said I still feel a little underwhelmed by the book, not because it doesn't help CSM out, it certainly does. But. and I'm sure I'm not the first to say it, I would have loved to seen this book as a "cult legion" expansion. Something focused mostly on World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children.

The book would focus on armies and rules entirely devoted to one god and while the background would center on the original traitors the rules would be useful for anyone wanting to make a mono-god themed army.

Again, I know I am not the first to say it, but I'm surprised that GW hasn't cashed in on a book (or supplement) like this since I know it would sell like hotcakes.

I've given it thought, and while I'm likely to still stick with doing KDK (I really like how well that army seems to just "gel" together, better than normal) that Chaos Warband was REALLY tempting, mostly because I am a fan of traditional type of armies, so having Terminators and Bikes or even Raptors (I know there's the special Raptor formation but I like the models), Havocs backed up with CSM gives that sort of "demi-company" feel to it.

I think that's really the best of the lot, even if you're going to see most people do min CSM squads and max out on Havocs or similar. I think coupled with the Fist of the Gods formation, the one that lets you take squadrons of vehicles, you can really get a nice Renegade Chapter type army (a la Red Corsairs) that looks and feels very Space Marine-like in composition.

I think it's at least a change of pace and I like the fact that, fluff-wise, it's part of the Black Crusade but NOT the main thrust.

Over all, I think it could make CSM a little better and at least refresh them a little. In a non-competitive environment the formations mentioned here could even be strong. That said, in a stronger meta, TH falls really flat. I just think it needed a little more thought they really gave it.

While it's true there's still no really great delivery system for Berzerkers, we did get something to help in this book.

We got Geomortis.

Granted, there's no guarantee of getting the power, and you'd have to take several sorcerers (perhaps a Cyclopia Cabal) to reliably get it, you can totally stack some dudes in a ruin and surf that straight into the enemy. Using Malestrom of Gore to add 3" to your charge distance will really help, too, since there's nothing as far as I'm aware that would let you mitigate the -2" charge through terrain. Only problem with that is unless you get multiple psykers with the power, you either have several units stacked in one spot and possibly not charging, or you have a couple expensive units not getting a ride period and having to run up the board.

Another idea I've been brewing is dropping a Cabal in a FW dreadclaw and hoping for the position swapping power. Pod in first turn, try to be within 24 of your unit and 12 (or 15) of another, suddenly berzerkers in your face. This one has issues, too, the biggest one being there is currently no way to get sorcerers in a dreadclaw except by taking one as a fast attack choice in a CAD, meaning you're either not taking the Decurion (so goodbye free boon rolls, ObSec, and army-wide Imperium Hatred) or you're clogging your list with gak you don't need to fill out the CAD requirements. The alternative is getting a dreadclaw as a dedicated transport for a unit of Chaos Space Marines and putting the sorcerer(s) with them, but in that case you may as well just mark them Khorne, put Kharn in there, and dump the psykers. So basically, Berzerkers are still a bust, especially since they can't take the dreadclaw as a DT. Berzerkers really couldn't have been fixed by this book since GW apparently doesn't want to mess with points, and the only thing that makes them better than MoK CSM is Furious Charge. Any IC you put in will make them Fearless anyway, so that really isn't a buff.

So, the way to make berserkers playable is spam wizards. Niceee.

 koooaei wrote:
So, the way to make berserkers playable is spam wizards. Niceee.

Not much different from how to make CSM playable was to do a mono-nurgle army whether you wanted to or not.

I actually saw, can't remember where, some folks arguing that Khorne Sorcerers should be a thing because chaos "magic" is basically warp power, it's not actual sorcerer. Also you could fluff it as something else

That said though... the concept of Slaughterpriests in AoS is interesting, maybe that concept could allow for Khorne-like sorcerers that aren't using sorcery in the typical sense, but like blood magic and rituals, which seems to be right up Khorne's alley.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, the way to make berserkers playable is spam wizards. Niceee.

Not much different from how to make CSM playable was to do a mono-nurgle army whether you wanted to or not.

I actually saw, can't remember where, some folks arguing that Khorne Sorcerers should be a thing because chaos "magic" is basically warp power, it's not actual sorcerer. Also you could fluff it as something else

That said though... the concept of Slaughterpriests in AoS is interesting, maybe that concept could allow for Khorne-like sorcerers that aren't using sorcery in the typical sense, but like blood magic and rituals, which seems to be right up Khorne's alley.

They aren't sorcerers, they are priests!

Priests that Slaughter and praise khorne so highly that he grants them the ability to unbind the magic of "sorcerers" and bless his followers with even more fightin power.

That could be anice interesting upgrade to a Sorcerer, like their own MoK. They can't cast powers yet generate Warp Charges regardless and gain anti-psyker buffs.

That could be anice interesting upgrade to a Sorcerer, like their own MoK. They can't cast powers yet generate Warp Charges regardless and gain anti-psyker buffs.

That's an awesome idea! Very "Khorny" too.

I like it!

I swear I remember something like that. I can't recall where, but that idea sounds like it was something that existed before. Maybe old WHFB? like 5th edition? I swear I recall seeing something that if given to a sorcerer prevented casing spells but gave anti-magic stuff.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I swear I remember something like that. I can't recall where, but that idea sounds like it was something that existed before. Maybe old WHFB? like 5th edition? I swear I recall seeing something that if given to a sorcerer prevented casing spells but gave anti-magic stuff.

Dwarf Runesmiths in WHFB couldn't cast spells but they generated dispel dice, that might be what you're thinking of.

Overall the book looks like a solid improvement without really addressing any of the issues that CSM has had since the release. I was sad to see that the Heldrake formation didn't allow them to shoot at a unit they Vector Struck in the movement phase, especially considering their in-codex art. The Cultist formation looks good, the raptors/warp talons formation and the possessed formation seem to be like fluffy god-sends for some terrible units, so those are really nice. Overall, the psychic powers are pretty good and Chaos sorcerers access to ML3 and spell familiars makes them strong casters still.

Definitely not an update that will make CSM top tier competitive, but has some interesting rules for those already invested with a large CSM army with many dupilcates of the same units.

Well, no matter how good it is for vanilla Chaos there is still no reason for me to get my Slaanesh army out again.

Tycho wrote:

That could be anice interesting upgrade to a Sorcerer, like their own MoK. They can't cast powers yet generate Warp Charges regardless and gain anti-psyker buffs.

That's an awesome idea! Very "Khorny" too.

I like it!

I suppose ML3 would be a Culexus effect of some kind and ML1 would be a straight buff to DTW. Not sure what bonus to incorporate at ML2.

That would be pretty cool, fluffy and useful. Our current dex lost all anti-psyker wargear. We used to have collars of khorne an such. I always felt like khorne got left in the dirt when it came to psychic powers, given how our sorcerers are no slouches in melee.
Having khorne being the go-to anti psyker god would be cool. Perhaps something like a 12 inch aura, which gives you a warp charge for each warp charge enemy psykers generate within that radius. Forcing you to hunt down psykers to gain the effect and giving you a large bonus to your overall DtW. Which would help deny stuff like invisibility and would discourage psyker heavy deathstars. And it stacks automatically the more psykers your opponent brings, not to mention not necessarily having to bring your own sorcerers to stand a chance at denying.

I dont know why Khorne "Priests" or Blood Magi dont simply have access to Biomancy Powers. Fits the bill pretty damn well.. They just absorb latent energy to bolster their own prowess.

The more they kill, the more blood spills, the stronger they get! Blood for the blood god, and all that.

Played a game yesterday using warband (biker MoN lord, biker sorc, 2 rhino melta marines, ac havoks, termicide with plazma, melta bikes), termicide formation (MoN lord with brand, 3 plazma termicides) and spawn auxilaries (2x5 and 4 solo - all MoN). The opponent fielded Iron hands CAD (biker techmarine, biker comsquad with 4+++, 2 min scouts, 2 fw sicarans, fw mortis dread with 2 ac, void shield), iron hands biker libconclave and iron hands skyhammer with grav.

I was very unsuccessful with termies as 2 squads of 4 arrived 2-d turn, 1 mishapped and got delayed, another squad, scattered badly, rolled a bunch of ones to pen the dread's back armor and than rolled 2 more ones for armor saves from ac and failed invul from rending on the same ac. 3-d turn 2 of 3 arrived, 1 mishapped and got delayed, another one hit but than the dread made a bucnh of cover saves and they only managed one shaken - there were just no other targets for them, really - only a dread in 3+ cover or av12 back tanks in same 3+ cover. Others were locked in combat and i decided it was no use throwing thm there - i had a chainfist lord that i wanted kill those tanks but he kept mishapping.
Csm did nothing but score, rolled a bunch of ones with melta to-wounds and all bolter shots got saved, than they died to grav. Scored some points though, so it's not too bad. Bikes also rolled a bunch of ones (this game my dice for everything other than psy were way below average). Rhinos also rolled around scoring points.

I managed to get chaos boons like 2 times from killing characters but rolled nothing even with 2 rolls, than suddenly 3-d turn free boons gave my lord Eternal warrior and fleet.

What made the game (as always) were the spawns. Those guyz afre amazing. a bunch of spawns with endurance kept his deathstar occupied - he didn't have enough chopping as he was mostly facing shooters and the main point of ironhand stars is durability - this time it was different. Solo spawns were also amazing. Lord and sorc did good too. And obsec played big part.

All in all, spawns and obsec won me yet another game with csm. I still want to run termies but without reserve manipulation and ds mitigation they're purely fun choice. Bikers are ok and are worth investing points into - more than regular marines. Maybe one termicide could be nice but 1/3 list in termicide without reserve manipulation was a waste of points. It was an exact 1/3 list handicap on my side this game.

 koooaei wrote:
Played a game yesterday using warband (biker MoN lord, biker sorc, 2 rhino melta marines, ac havoks, termicide with plazma, melta bikes), termicide formation (MoN lord with brand, 3 plazma termicides) and spawn auxilaries (2x5 and 4 solo - all MoN). The opponent fielded Iron hands CAD (biker techmarine, biker comsquad with 4+++, 2 min scouts, 2 fw sicarans, fw mortis dread with 2 ac, void shield), iron hands biker libconclave and iron hands skyhammer with grav.

I was very unsuccessful with termies as 2 squads of 4 arrived 2-d turn, 1 mishapped and got delayed, another squad, scattered badly, rolled a bunch of ones to pen the dread's back armor and than rolled 2 more ones for armor saves from ac and failed invul from rending on the same ac. 3-d turn 2 of 3 arrived, 1 mishapped and got delayed, another one hit but than the dread made a bucnh of cover saves and they only managed one shaken - there were just no other targets for them, really - only a dread in 3+ cover or av12 back tanks in same 3+ cover. Others were locked in combat and i decided it was no use throwing thm there - i had a chainfist lord that i wanted kill those tanks but he kept mishapping.
Csm did nothing but score, rolled a bunch of ones with melta to-wounds and all bolter shots got saved, than they died to grav. Scored some points though, so it's not too bad. Bikes also rolled a bunch of ones (this game my dice for everything other than psy were way below average). Rhinos also rolled around scoring points.

I managed to get chaos boons like 2 times from killing characters but rolled nothing even with 2 rolls, than suddenly 3-d turn free boons gave my lord Eternal warrior and fleet.

What made the game (as always) were the spawns. Those guyz afre amazing. a bunch of spawns with endurance kept his deathstar occupied - he didn't have enough chopping as he was mostly facing shooters and the main point of ironhand stars is durability - this time it was different. Solo spawns were also amazing. Lord and sorc did good too. And obsec played big part.

All in all, spawns and obsec won me yet another game with csm. I still want to run termies but without reserve manipulation and ds mitigation they're purely fun choice. Bikers are ok and are worth investing points into - more than regular marines. Maybe one termicide could be nice but 1/3 list in termicide without reserve manipulation was a waste of points. It was an exact 1/3 list handicap on my side this game.

Looks like great unit is still great (like MoN Spawns, Biker MoN Lord / Sorcessorer, and something not present in your game - Maulerfiend), while bad unit is still bad (Terminators) general Ok-ish unit is still Ok-ish. The only maybe exception maybe the Warp Talons, that formation make them awesome against the right unit.

Traitor's Hate is another layer of shiny paint applied to the reeking turd that is the CSM codex.

Clapping and praising it as a tool that makes CSM "better, but not too competitive anyway" just proves a certain portion of the playerbase is as stupid as GW believes them to be. So now in order to field a somewhat competitive force, CSM need their basic codex, some Forgeworld stuff plus another supplement. And in the end, in terms of what the army can bring to the table, we're still far behind Eldar, Tau or loyalist Marines... and they don't need anything else than their basic codices.

You can polish a turd as much as you want, paint it and throw christmas lightbulbs over it. It's still a turd. The CSM main codex is gak, and no amount of formations is going to change that.

 djdutton wrote:
I like the points you make, they certainly are competitive now. That being said I still feel a little underwhelmed by the book, not because it doesn't help CSM out, it certainly does. But. and I'm sure I'm not the first to say it, I would have loved to seen this book as a "cult legion" expansion. Something focused mostly on World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children.

The book would focus on armies and rules entirely devoted to one god and while the background would center on the original traitors the rules would be useful for anyone wanting to make a mono-god themed army.

Again, I know I am not the first to say it, but I'm surprised that GW hasn't cashed in on a book (or supplement) like this since I know it would sell like hotcakes.

This is pretty much how I feel too. I actually really like Traitor's Hate! The formations are OK at worst and pretty good at best. Fun, fluffy options that aren't innately broken. The psychic powers have the potential problems that their Angels of Death counterparts do, but they can be fun, fluffy options all the same. Iron Warriors "technomancer" anyone? I can actually see myself having fun with these formations which, for the most part, are reasonable in size so as to be usable in a standard game of 40k (as opposed to the problematic orkurion stuff).

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with everything in this book. It's just that it doesn't fix the things from the main chaos marine codex that I find frustrating. Playing Thousand Sons in a fluffy fashion, for instance, is pretty difficult to do (random chance to get unfluffy mutations), and they're mechanically bad enough to be sort of punishing to play. Alpha legion doesn't really have any support beyond "take some cultists, and hope you roll a warlord trait that lets a couple guys infiltrate." Noise marines are still torn between standing still and shooting or charging forward to use a doomsiren and benefit from higher initiative.

Although to Traitor's Hate's credit, the raptor formation actually goes a long way towards letting you play a fluffy Night Lords list.

I really like that the Chaos Demi-Co formation is way more flexible than the loyalist ones. In my SM army, I often want to take an extra Devastator squad, and I can't. Chaos has no problem with it though, and can put three Havoc squads into their Core Formation.

I also like the fact that they can load up on Daemon Princes with their 0-5 Command choices. I have a bunch of old models around, and now I'm torn between developing my Chaos collection or my Eldar one.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, the way to make berserkers playable is spam wizards. Niceee.

Not much different from how to make CSM playable was to do a mono-nurgle army whether you wanted to or not.

I actually saw, can't remember where, some folks arguing that Khorne Sorcerers should be a thing because chaos "magic" is basically warp power, it's not actual sorcerer. Also you could fluff it as something else

That said though... the concept of Slaughterpriests in AoS is interesting, maybe that concept could allow for Khorne-like sorcerers that aren't using sorcery in the typical sense, but like blood magic and rituals, which seems to be right up Khorne's alley.

In RoC Books a World Eaters Librarian, couldn't generate powers, or use any psychic abilities, but would grant a Ward save or something for the nearby units Vs Psychic attacks.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, the way to make berserkers playable is spam wizards. Niceee.

Not much different from how to make CSM playable was to do a mono-nurgle army whether you wanted to or not.

I actually saw, can't remember where, some folks arguing that Khorne Sorcerers should be a thing because chaos "magic" is basically warp power, it's not actual sorcerer. Also you could fluff it as something else

That said though... the concept of Slaughterpriests in AoS is interesting, maybe that concept could allow for Khorne-like sorcerers that aren't using sorcery in the typical sense, but like blood magic and rituals, which seems to be right up Khorne's alley.

They aren't sorcerers, they are priests!

Priests that Slaughter and praise khorne so highly that he grants them the ability to unbind the magic of "sorcerers" and bless his followers with even more fightin power.

GoliothOnline wrote:I dont know why Khorne "Priests" or Blood Magi dont simply have access to Biomancy Powers. Fits the bill pretty damn well.. They just absorb latent energy to bolster their own prowess.

The more they kill, the more blood spills, the stronger they get! Blood for the blood god, and all that.

Yeah i totally agree, while the whole "Khorne's hate magic to kill instead of using your own hands" is nice and all, its stupid thatGW lazely just labbeled it as "No Psy Powers", while Khorne, his demons and tools of war are made out of Warp energy=Psychic power.

Would have been best and more subtle to say that while they don't use directly Psy powers against their victimes, they use it to strengthen themselfs, So a Khorne character could be labelled Skull Priest and count as a ML2 with no upgrades, wich would generate 2x Warp charges dices for DtW and would only be able to use Biomancy and maybe Pyro( nothing wrong with a Herald/CHampion/Bloodtristerts spewing boiling blood/brass or lightning arcs out of his mouth to cook his ennemies to perfection).

It also fits the fluff, since while Khorne followers doesn't use Psy powers to fight, they still use it to make weapons, armors, artifacts and Demon Engines...

But hey, thats another discussion.

What really dissapoints me, is that Kharn wasn't updated a +10/20pts increase for T5 and a 2+ armor would have been legitimate in my opinion.

I mean come on, its Kharn, a former Legion Captain and Primarch Esquirre, not any run-of-the-mill Chaos Lord, it really bothers me that a Chaos Lord from the woodworks can have a 4++ but Kharn can't, it bother me to no end that a "baby" SM Chapter MAster can have a 2+ armor, and a 10k old Bad Ass who as fought on Terra still as that stinky 3+ armor...

It also fits the fluff, since while Khorne followers doesn't use Psy powers to fight, they still use it to make weapons, armors, artifacts and Demon Engines...

Because you've still got to craft all that with effort, your own work, blood, and toil. Khorne considers it cowardly because you are using the Immaterium to fight for you, calling out the warp and using it to kill things rather then man crafted war tools.

As you said, his daemons and their weapons are made out of Warp Energy... But they don't use the Warp itself to fight, they craft tools, they craft weapons to destroy, built in the blood forges of Khorne in his domain, fitted in armor crafted from the forges, the beasts forcefully tamed by effort by blood letters to become their living beasts of battle.

It's entirely different then calling forth the warp itself to spew lightning at someone you don't like, older editions had it that Khorne also disliked things that would prevent blood from flowing like plasma or energy weapons, even considering ranged combat with autocannons quite honorable as it still spills blood for him with ranged precision and skill.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It also fits the fluff, since while Khorne followers doesn't use Psy powers to fight, they still use it to make weapons, armors, artifacts and Demon Engines...

Because you've still got to craft all that with effort, your own work, blood, and toil. Khorne considers it cowardly because you are using the Immaterium to fight for you, calling out the warp and using it to kill things rather then man crafted war tools.

As you said, his daemons and their weapons are made out of Warp Energy... But they don't use the Warp itself to fight, they craft tools, they craft weapons to destroy, built in the blood forges of Khorne in his domain, fitted in armor crafted from the forges, the beasts forcefully tamed by effort by blood letters to become their living beasts of battle.

It's entirely different then calling forth the warp itself to spew lightning at someone you don't like, older editions had it that Khorne also disliked things that would prevent blood from flowing like plasma or energy weapons, even considering ranged combat with autocannons quite honorable as it still spills blood for him with ranged precision and skill.

Why does Kharn have a plasma pistol, then ?^^ The best champion of Khorne using a weapon Khorn himself hate ?
That's not clever...

I did say older editions, the plasma/energy thing was before 2nd edition was crafted.

 godardc wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It also fits the fluff, since while Khorne followers doesn't use Psy powers to fight, they still use it to make weapons, armors, artifacts and Demon Engines...

Because you've still got to craft all that with effort, your own work, blood, and toil. Khorne considers it cowardly because you are using the Immaterium to fight for you, calling out the warp and using it to kill things rather then man crafted war tools.

As you said, his daemons and their weapons are made out of Warp Energy... But they don't use the Warp itself to fight, they craft tools, they craft weapons to destroy, built in the blood forges of Khorne in his domain, fitted in armor crafted from the forges, the beasts forcefully tamed by effort by blood letters to become their living beasts of battle.

It's entirely different then calling forth the warp itself to spew lightning at someone you don't like, older editions had it that Khorne also disliked things that would prevent blood from flowing like plasma or energy weapons, even considering ranged combat with autocannons quite honorable as it still spills blood for him with ranged precision and skill.

Why does Kharn have a plasma pistol, then ?^^ The best champion of Khorne using a weapon Khorn himself hate ?
That's not clever...

He's usung it for the +1 attack. He's aware he's in a game.

Neophyte2012 wrote:


Looks like great unit is still great (like MoN Spawns, Biker MoN Lord / Sorcessorer, and something not present in your game - Maulerfiend), while bad unit is still bad (Terminators) general Ok-ish unit is still Ok-ish. The only maybe exception maybe the Warp Talons, that formation make them awesome against the right unit.

Well, i don't think termies are bad - was just very unlucky with them. If csm had scatter mitigation, i'd run them all day.

As for great units, yes, you can now easilly spam spawns that are the best unit in the codex imo. Those who like drakes, will also get benefits without any disadvantages. As for the maulerfiends, i haven't had much success with them. But character fiend with 4++ might be fun. 110 pt for a warpsmith though...I don't really know how to utilise him without a bike or pack. And you could probably get a cad with sorc, cultists and all those same fiends for some 50 points more.

The core formation is decent. All in all, i like it - just feel that other formations are not that good. I don't believe in raptors. Why would you want them if you could get all thesame 2-d turn charge from dogs, spawns or bikers without being forced to roll reserves and scatter. Also, i think that waaagh formation from BL makes raptors better as they get an almost guaranteed 2-d turn charge. Got to waste pointson zerkers though.

Terminators are one of the only things they have that are better than the Loyalist counterpart. With that formation they get the "shoot + shoot or run" essentially. So you can Combi-Plasma anything and run near them. Or further away.

I definitely plan to do multiple groups of 4 Combi-Plasma and see what happens.