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 jreilly89 wrote:

 Field_Mouse wrote:
So what would it take to have the CSM and Abbadon be taken more seriously? An advance in the plot in which he does actually accomplish something?

A box game (similar to Deathwatch) but include a new Abby and have a driven plot to reinvent the man?

Stop retconning the fluff, advance the fluff, have him destroy something significant and give him a reason to be feared (destroy a homeworld or assault the gates of Terra, something)

Like 2 planets in the Cadian system.

Wait...

Maybe the 13 Black Crusades of Chaos would have been successful if they were more organized instead of being so...

chaotic...

Most of this thread is Imperial perspectives about the Astartes warrior who has arguably been more successful than any Loyalist. Too much focus is given to his Black Crusades, and not enough to what he actually does in his role at the Warmaster of the Black Legion.

Let's remember, Traitors don't really like each other, and Traitor Legions aren't really stable, organized forces. The fact he's able to keep a legion going is a big deal. Sure, Iron Warriors and Night Lords are still around, but most other legions split into warbands and don't really exist as a single entity anymore. The fact he can keep one together is a huge organizational success.

Second, he operates out of the Eye of Terror. It's not real space, it's a mix of the material and the Immaterium. He does all this without the aid of consistent physical laws and constant threats from predatory warp entities. The fact he can keep it together in a place where things are never really is a huge achievement.

Third, he calls the shots for most of what happens in the Eye of Terror. No one crosses him. Arguably, he's as important as the Chaos Gods themselves, in that he can dictate the fate of of those who reside there. He has a level of personal power that exceeds that of the worst branches of the Imperium, and I've never seen anything in the fluff to contradict that. The fact the Gods don't dictate his every move or turn him into a spawn means something.

Fourth, given those points - who are we to say what his real plans are or what he finds important? Sure, he's fighting a war against the Imperium, but the laws of time and space don't really matter. He can send out armies to accomplish unfathomable goals where success is measured in ways that would drive ordinary men insane. On his timeframe, I am sure he's going to get to Terra eventually.

Well, I see this problem and in this community of having attitude ""I do not know, I do not care and I know better''. It is just me taking lore seriously while everybody else is just not giving the gak. This is the problem I have in life generally. Like I just started my master studies with a lot of thought and dedication and I was just shocked that pitiful students my peers are.


As for Horus and Emperor being demigods, well, I'm not a fan of dragon ball z approach to story telling where Emperor takes two Emperor class titans in each of his hands, start smashing Horus using them as clubs and then heroic titan crew detonates plasma core of the emperor class titan, making them frag grenades for the Emperor. Emperor then throws these titans to Horus, resulting explosion stuns him briefly, enough for the Emperor to fly to orbit, tear lance weaponary from the biggest ship in orbit, power it by its own awesomes and blow the plant with Horus briefely stunned on it.

And while it often not that bad, it is still same principle. Oh, all that stuff who only becomes stronger as their target is stronger? Does not matter, lore will suddenly go into full slow mode and demigod will kick its ass. Like swords ignoring armor, well, Emperor's armor is made up of some never heard, one time use metal. Sword only becomes deadlier as more psychic energy is present? Well, Emperor will use his psychic might to destroy this sword... Yeah, logic. Same with psyker killers, there was some humans during great crusade that could drive Emperor mad just by their near pressense and would just execute unguarded Emperor, mind you, not kill, but execute.


I prefer to use saner approach to power levels and story telling. Horus already killed primarch in melee combat and probably Fulgrim by collatorial damage then his squad was being awesome. But I do realize that this way is not that most people like. I seek for mature story telling, I'm glad that GW also seeks that while most of the fanbase wants to stay in how w40k is being perceived. As silly and over the top sci setting.

 Ernestas wrote:
As for Horus and Emperor being demigods, well, I'm not a fan of dragon ball z approach to story telling where Emperor takes two Emperor class titans in each of his hands, start smashing Horus using them as clubs and then heroic titan crew detonates plasma core of the emperor class titan, making them frag grenades for the Emperor. Emperor then throws these titans to Horus, resulting explosion stuns him briefly, enough for the Emperor to fly to orbit, tear lance weaponary from the biggest ship in orbit, power it by its own awesomes and blow the plant with Horus briefely stunned on it.

And while it often not that bad, it is still same principle. Oh, all that stuff who only becomes stronger as their target is stronger? Does not matter, lore will suddenly go into full slow mode and demigod will kick its ass. Like swords ignoring armor, well, Emperor's armor is made up of some never heard, one time use metal. Sword only becomes deadlier as more psychic energy is present? Well, Emperor will use his psychic might to destroy this sword... Yeah, logic. Same with psyker killers, there was some humans during great crusade that could drive Emperor mad just by their near pressense and would just execute unguarded Emperor, mind you, not kill, but execute.

A wise man once said:

 Ernestas wrote:
I will ignore fools who insist on teaching me a lesson basing their arguments on foolish ideas like there is no lore. Of course there is. W40k lore is loose, but GW made it clear that can be considered cannon and that cannot and then fans goes directly against established norms, then there is a problem. It is like saying that squats is still official part of w40k universe because ''hey man, nothing is cannon''.

...

In addition, while w40k universe is loose there are clear boundaries which GW set. You cannot just tell any bs and claim it is my lore.

You may not like the ridiculous fluff but, as you said, that's what GW has decided is canon and that's all there is to it.

 Ernestas wrote:
Well, I see this problem and in this community of having attitude ""I do not know, I do not care and I know better''. It is just me taking lore seriously while everybody else is just not giving the gak. This is the problem I have in life generally. Like I just started my master studies with a lot of thought and dedication and I was just shocked that pitiful students my peers are.


As for Horus and Emperor being demigods, well, I'm not a fan of dragon ball z approach to story telling where Emperor takes two Emperor class titans in each of his hands, start smashing Horus using them as clubs and then heroic titan crew detonates plasma core of the emperor class titan, making them frag grenades for the Emperor. Emperor then throws these titans to Horus, resulting explosion stuns him briefly, enough for the Emperor to fly to orbit, tear lance weaponary from the biggest ship in orbit, power it by its own awesomes and blow the plant with Horus briefely stunned on it.

And while it often not that bad, it is still same principle. Oh, all that stuff who only becomes stronger as their target is stronger? Does not matter, lore will suddenly go into full slow mode and demigod will kick its ass. Like swords ignoring armor, well, Emperor's armor is made up of some never heard, one time use metal. Sword only becomes deadlier as more psychic energy is present? Well, Emperor will use his psychic might to destroy this sword... Yeah, logic. Same with psyker killers, there was some humans during great crusade that could drive Emperor mad just by their near pressense and would just execute unguarded Emperor, mind you, not kill, but execute.


I prefer to use saner approach to power levels and story telling. Horus already killed primarch in melee combat and probably Fulgrim by collatorial damage then his squad was being awesome. But I do realize that this way is not that most people like. I seek for mature story telling, I'm glad that GW also seeks that while most of the fanbase wants to stay in how w40k is being perceived. As silly and over the top sci setting.

40k was founded based on being a collection of parodies and playing on tropes from fantasy and sci fi. GW started taking things more seriously and while some enjoy that sort of thing, others enjoy treating the setting as light hearted. Also lets be real here, this is a universe where orbital bombardment is a thing as well as plentiful amounts of accurate, high powered, and long ranged shooting weapons and yet there are guys running around with chainsaw swords getting into melee combat with each other. The setting is basically a giant joke and while GW may have forgotten its roots, a lot of people still view it as that and enjoy it for what it is. If somebody wants to view 40k as a serious setting and follow the lore closely then sure more power to them but the people who view the setting as a parody and being over the top silly are not in the wrong.

 Ernestas wrote:
Well, I see this problem and in this community of having attitude ""I do not know, I do not care and I know better''. It is just me taking lore seriously while everybody else is just not giving the gak. This is the problem I have in life generally. Like I just started my master studies with a lot of thought and dedication and I was just shocked that pitiful students my peers are.


As for Horus and Emperor being demigods, well, I'm not a fan of dragon ball z approach to story telling where Emperor takes two Emperor class titans in each of his hands, start smashing Horus using them as clubs and then heroic titan crew detonates plasma core of the emperor class titan, making them frag grenades for the Emperor. Emperor then throws these titans to Horus, resulting explosion stuns him briefly, enough for the Emperor to fly to orbit, tear lance weaponary from the biggest ship in orbit, power it by its own awesomes and blow the plant with Horus briefely stunned on it.

And while it often not that bad, it is still same principle. Oh, all that stuff who only becomes stronger as their target is stronger? Does not matter, lore will suddenly go into full slow mode and demigod will kick its ass. Like swords ignoring armor, well, Emperor's armor is made up of some never heard, one time use metal. Sword only becomes deadlier as more psychic energy is present? Well, Emperor will use his psychic might to destroy this sword... Yeah, logic. Same with psyker killers, there was some humans during great crusade that could drive Emperor mad just by their near pressense and would just execute unguarded Emperor, mind you, not kill, but execute.


I prefer to use saner approach to power levels and story telling. Horus already killed primarch in melee combat and probably Fulgrim by collatorial damage then his squad was being awesome. But I do realize that this way is not that most people like. I seek for mature story telling, I'm glad that GW also seeks that while most of the fanbase wants to stay in how w40k is being perceived. As silly and over the top sci setting.

Back to not caring about your "peers" eh? Look, the biggest problem is GW cannot decide what they want 40k to be: this big dramatic epic or an over the top Sci-Fi setting. I get where you're coming from in that you want 40k to be serious, but that's hard to do with factions like Orks and models like Wulfen running about and some of the lore GW has written. GW is moving more towards the dramatic story and away from the sillier Rogue Trader days, but that will always be in the back of veteran players minds.

Your best bet is to take GW's own advice: Suck it up, "Forge the narrative", and consider only the lore you like.

What are we eve going on about at this point, i dipped out a few pages back, can some one get me up to speed?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
What are we eve going on about at this point, i dipped out a few pages back, can some one get me up to speed?

I would, but I am above such mortal concerns.

I found this interesting:

https://regimental-standard.com/2016/08/31/what-is-a-black-crusade/

pm713 wrote:
He hasn't united Chaos, to my knowledge he hasn't killed any Primarchs and refusing to serve Chaos is no big deal. Almost all Eldar and Space Marines do that. Big whoop.

So I'm a little late to the party here - but you completely misunderstand what has occurred.

He HAS united many of the disparate Chaos forces (Not only CSM, but traitor forces as well as Daemonic forces) under his banner.

He HAS killed (at least) one Primarch (the clone of Horus).

He has NOT "refused Chaos". What he has done is negotiated, forced, cajoled and tricked his way into the favor of the four Chaos Gods.

The real thing to know about Abaddon is that unlike Horus, he wasn't TRICKED into his allegiance to Chaos. He went into it willingly and with both eyes open.

A lot of discussion around Talon of Horus and ADB's portrayal of Abaddon (which I personally think was amazing).

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

That sums it up nicely in my mind.

I'm sorry for being late. I just cannot juggle full time work and studies in master. Last friday I had like 2.5 hours to sleep for 40 hours of work. This is why I'm often absent and cranky.


Yes, I do understand the issue is with how lore was and how GW wants new lore to be. I do respect choices of other people if they understand lore in their own way, I do the same, by taking it very seriously. The only issue I have is then they take their own interpretation of lore like ''Chaos is completely incompetent and gets crushed every time'' and says it is the fluff, the official story line then everything in the newer lore says completely different thing. In almost all cases they cannot create a decent argument made up by examples in the fluff and all they can do is to show their ignorance by saying ''Abbadon failed 13 Black Crusades to conquer Imperium'' which is so wrong and ignorant on so many levels that it is hard to believe...

 cvtuttle wrote:

pm713 wrote:
He hasn't united Chaos, to my knowledge he hasn't killed any Primarchs and refusing to serve Chaos is no big deal. Almost all Eldar and Space Marines do that. Big whoop.

So I'm a little late to the party here - but you completely misunderstand what has occurred.

He HAS united many of the disparate Chaos forces (Not only CSM, but traitor forces as well as Daemonic forces) under his banner.

He HAS killed (at least) one Primarch (the clone of Horus).

He has NOT "refused Chaos". What he has done is negotiated, forced, cajoled and tricked his way into the favor of the four Chaos Gods.

The real thing to know about Abaddon is that unlike Horus, he wasn't TRICKED into his allegiance to Chaos. He went into it willingly and with both eyes open.

A lot of discussion around Talon of Horus and ADB's portrayal of Abaddon (which I personally think was amazing).

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

That sums it up nicely in my mind.

Thanks for that link, Awesome read. That's pretty much the best description I've ever heard of abaddon and matches my idea of him to a T.

Killing a clone of Horus isn't really a big deal.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Killing a clone of Horus isn't really a big deal.

Killing something with the power of the greatest Space Marines to walk the galaxy is not a big deal?

Well, during that particular piece of lore, clone of Horus appeared to be as mighty as a Primarch, killing space marines left and right. The level of cloning differs massively from being demigods to just some chaos spawn.

Remember: PRIMARCHS WERE A VAT GROWN! So, there was nothing natural about them and there is very little reason of why primarchs cannot be vat growned again. In fact, Chaos is posing far more dangers to Imperium than its Black crusades. Emperor is being cloned, Typhius is creating an ultimate life destroying disease, new man are infecting Imperium society from within thus ascending humanity with genetically superior human strain.

Risks that pose chaos is far more greater and sinister than most fans of w40k know,

 General Annoyance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Killing a clone of Horus isn't really a big deal.

Killing something with the power of the greatest Space Marines to walk the galaxy is not a big deal?

A clone with none of the real experience of the actual primarch and likely not as used to the same equipment if he had it? It is like punching out a full grown clone of Muhammad Ali.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Killing a clone of Horus isn't really a big deal.

Killing something with the power of the greatest Space Marines to walk the galaxy is not a big deal?

A clone with none of the real experience of the actual primarch and likely not as used to the same equipment if he had it? It is like punching out a full grown clone of Muhammad Ali.

Considering the primarchs as children were able to do some extraordinary things, Angron had a group of slaughtered aliens around himself for example which were thought to be Eldar, Leman Russ hunted with his wolf pack and killed quite a bit...

It's like Muhammad Ali if at the age of infancy he somehow slaughtered people with his punches.

It would be nice if people would actually read stuff about which they are talking about...

It would be nice if you weren't so condescending, but we don't always get what we want.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Killing a clone of Horus isn't really a big deal.

Killing something with the power of the greatest Space Marines to walk the galaxy is not a big deal?

A clone with none of the real experience of the actual primarch and likely not as used to the same equipment if he had it? It is like punching out a full grown clone of Muhammad Ali.

Considering the primarchs as children were able to do some extraordinary things, Angron had a group of slaughtered aliens around himself for example which were thought to be Eldar, Leman Russ hunted with his wolf pack and killed quite a bit...

It's like Muhammad Ali if at the age of infancy he somehow slaughtered people with his punches.

The difference between a clone and the original is we don't know what else was done to the nascent embryos by the Emperor beyond simple physical engineering.

 Azreal13 wrote:
It would be nice if you weren't so condescending, but we don't always get what we want.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Killing a clone of Horus isn't really a big deal.

Killing something with the power of the greatest Space Marines to walk the galaxy is not a big deal?

A clone with none of the real experience of the actual primarch and likely not as used to the same equipment if he had it? It is like punching out a full grown clone of Muhammad Ali.

Considering the primarchs as children were able to do some extraordinary things, Angron had a group of slaughtered aliens around himself for example which were thought to be Eldar, Leman Russ hunted with his wolf pack and killed quite a bit...

It's like Muhammad Ali if at the age of infancy he somehow slaughtered people with his punches.

The difference between a clone and the original is we don't know what else was done to the nascent embryos by the Emperor beyond simple physical engineering.

Well considering that the Clone Horus was slaughtering space marines left and right who were decked out in full power armor.. The thing of the matter was that this was not the only clone horus, this was the perfected one that Fabius Bile had created after many failures, the same Clone that was created with the same genetic material from the corpse of Horus himself, and that Fabius Bile's cloning methods and is one of the few able to create full on Chaos Space Marines for the various warbands that seek his services, that Fabius Bile created to curry favor with Abbadon. Fabius Bile is a vast perfectionist, if he truly thought he created the perfect clone then he would certainly present it instead of some weakling or worthless one to Abbadon.

I don't doubt it. My point is the replicating Horus physically, even if done perfectly, may not necessarily duplicate everything that the original possessed.

The original was created by the Emperor, who is probably the only one who truly understood the process, and at his height was blessed by all 4 gods (much like Abaddon.)

The Bile clone, while physically perfect, and no doubt a handful, may have been lacking substantial power that Horus himself could wield.

Your point is invalid since Emperor himself did not understood this process. He had many failures, some of which were so shameful that he was forced to censor information of his humiliation (missing legions) and pure genetic seed is rare among space marines. Many chapters ultimately becoming little more than monsters rather than reaching end of their lifespans. Look no further than blood anglels, thousand sons, space wolves.

This is ignoring how many completely idiotic mistakes Emperor was doing left and right. Practically, entire Horus Heresy happened only because Emperor was a massive dick and a terrible father. In the end, he was not the only perfect alpha psyker who tried to conquer the galaxy. The only difference was that Emperor had tried to do that in a manner which a mortal would do and not in a way as a God would do. It takes brilliant mind to understand your limits then you literally are God.

Making mistakes doesn't mean you don't understand something.

In fact, it is often the way towards greater understanding.

Your whole second paragraph has no relevance to the discussion of Horus' clone and its relative power level.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Making mistakes doesn't mean you don't understand something.

In fact, it is often the way towards greater understanding.

Your whole second paragraph has no relevance to the discussion of Horus' clone and its relative power level.

The problem with that logic is, for all we know is that Fabius Bile has an even greater understanding and that the Horus clone could've been more perfect then it originally was, with extra alterations to make it even better. Speculation doesn't really help when we know that the God Emperor, no matter what his intention was had flaws within the various primarchs or even the armies he eventually created from their batch. Saying he has a greater understanding yet we know the geneseed was flawed in various places doesn't help your speculation on said matter.

We know Bile isn't the greatest psyker ever known, and we know the Chaos gods interfered with the Emperor's process.

We also know that the blessings of all four was sufficient to jack original Horus from "just" a Primarch to an entity capable of beating the Emperor.

There's plenty of plausible reasons that the clone Horus was a pale imitation of his original self, which would make "killing a Primarch" somewhat of an exaggeration on Abby's CV.

Yes we know that the Chaos Gods made Horus quite strong, however Horus beforehand was one of the stronger Primarchs beforehand, still to put it bluntly an unaltered unchaos Horus getting beat by a single marine is actually a vast feat for said marine, in this case Abbadon.

Also Bile isn't a psyker at all, he was originally an apocathery.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yes we know that the Chaos Gods made Horus quite strong, however Horus beforehand was one of the stronger Primarchs beforehand, still to put it bluntly an unaltered unchaos Horus getting beat by a single marine is actually a vast feat for said marine, in this case Abbadon.

Also Bile isn't a psyker at all, he was originally an apocathery.

Quite frankly if Abigail could do it, any other Chapter Master equivalent could do it.

You are grabbing at straws here. Your reasoning process is flawed and you want to create a story rather than to develop it. You have an idea of how you want it to be and you try to look for clues in the lore, anything at all to confirm this instead of looking at the facts and later developing relevant assumptions from it.