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Well, they're scoring cause they kill stuff in melee and non-melee things don't want to get close to them.

Yep, cad termies for 45 pts are way overpriced and are almost never worth it. But termies that charge out of ds for 45 pts are a good deal.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, they're scoring cause they kill stuff in melee and non-melee things don't want to get close to them.

Yep, cad termies for 45 pts are way overpriced and are almost never worth it. But termies that charge out of ds for 45 pts are a good deal.

Why wouldn't they want to get close to them? Shoot them to soften them up and then charge. Terminators aren't durable, so that's mostly a bad move on your opponent's end.

Still, charging from Deep Strike makes them fun. Shame it'll never see tournaments for the most part.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, they're scoring cause they kill stuff in melee and non-melee things don't want to get close to them.

Yep, cad termies for 45 pts are way overpriced and are almost never worth it. But termies that charge out of ds for 45 pts are a good deal.

Maybe. Seems unlikely.

Termies still lack attacks to be 'Top tier' even with ds charges but even 10 thunderhammer attacks are not half bad. I think that if they didn't have to make a disoriented charge, they'd be very close to op, though. And i do believe they'll finally make a way to some tourney lists. So much synergy with deathcompany, pod dreads and pod marines! The fact that you force your opponent into a corner and even than can get to him with those thunderhammers is worth much for scoring games.

Where to get points for scoring chaff though...maybe spam some min bikers with grav.

I love it that when people say "Actually, my <unit> did great in a game" in reply to "<unit> is bad." then the reply is inevitably "Your opponent played badly."

I thought skill didn't matter in this game? Clearly if your opponent played badly they are of lesser skill...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love it that when people say "Actually, my <unit> did great in a game" in reply to "<unit> is bad." then the reply is inevitably "Your opponent played badly."

I thought skill didn't matter in this game? Clearly if your opponent played badly they are of lesser skill...

X is bad. Y is good. If X did good against Y the one who fielded Y is bad because you can't be good if you field X that is bad. But than if you are bad, fielding bad X, the opponent is bad fielding good Y but than Y can't be good in hands of a bad opponent => Y is bad. But Y is better than X => X is not just bad, it's VERY bad. That's how we prove termies are garbage if they win vs good lists.

That's the same logic as when you beat someone badly and he says you're newb.

 koooaei wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love it that when people say "Actually, my <unit> did great in a game" in reply to "<unit> is bad." then the reply is inevitably "Your opponent played badly."

I thought skill didn't matter in this game? Clearly if your opponent played badly they are of lesser skill...

X is bad. Y is good. If X did good against Y the one who fielded Y is bad because you can't be good if you field X that is bad. But than if you are bad, fielding bad X, the opponent is bad fielding good Y but than Y can't be good in hands of a bad opponent => Y is bad. But Y is better than X => X is not just bad, it's VERY bad. That's how we prove termies are garbage if they win vs good lists.

So, you're saying that player skill matters, if it can make X win against Y? I thought one of the biggest complaints about 40k was how player skill doesn't matter.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love it that when people say "Actually, my <unit> did great in a game" in reply to "<unit> is bad." then the reply is inevitably "Your opponent played badly."

I thought skill didn't matter in this game? Clearly if your opponent played badly they are of lesser skill...

Because you are anecdotal. I have seen an Avatar die to gretchin overwatch. Clearly gretchin need to be nerfed to all hell, right?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love it that when people say "Actually, my <unit> did great in a game" in reply to "<unit> is bad." then the reply is inevitably "Your opponent played badly."

I thought skill didn't matter in this game? Clearly if your opponent played badly they are of lesser skill...

Because you are anecdotal. I have seen an Avatar die to gretchin overwatch. Clearly gretchin need to be nerfed to all hell, right?

No, that's not what I'm claiming at all. I am not saying terminators are good - I am saying player skill matters in 40k, contrary to popular opinion, if the only way terminators can be good is if your opponent is bad. I'm proposing the following:

1) Terminators are objectively awful compared to certain other units.
2) If Terminators beat these certain other units, it is not because terminators are good (and therefore does not invalidate Premise 1), but because the player of these other units was of inferior skill compared to the player playing the Terminators.

Therefore, relative player skill matters in 40k, in opposition to the oft-touted claim that it does not.

Martel732 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How did they not all die immediately upon entering the field?

Cause they didn't play in the world of your termie-hating imagination. Yep, d-flamers killed 1 squad turn 3. Knight killed another in 2 full turns. But in the meanwhile, they helped clearing out the seerstar, scatbikes and scored.

I only wish it was my imagination most of the time. How are they scoring if they are not obj sec? Or are you outmaneuvering Eldar with foot terminators?

I believe he dropped down with a squad, shot twice with one of them (I assume 4x storm bolters and a heavy flamer, all shooting twice after disembarking from their pod, should inflict enough wounds to kill a squad of scat bikes so the terminators could score.) and assaulted with the pair of assault terminator squads after they disembarked from their pod.

That's enough to put a dent, and the melee termies only took one round of overwatch fire on the way in after leaving their pod. It's reasonable that he targeted the seerstar first and deleted (or crippled/forced a leadership test and broke) another two jetbke squads in addition to the seerstar..

I had considered this idea, but wasn't sure if the pods would interact well with it or prevent the charge/double shoot from deep strike.

Good to know it does work & glad to know you had some success with it.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

To avoid further asumptions, here how the game went - not making a full report, just short about termies and stuff connected to them.

All termies were assault ones with th+ss. Simply in ds reserves.

Furioso in a pod with beacon dropped, furioso killed 2 little seers and wounded an autarch than the dread got wrecked by a plane but the pod remained. Another pod with beacon and marins deployed on a point near the middle of the map. DC advanced and ended up being within like 15" from this pod.
Seers and knight attacked dc but didn't manage to wipe them - the knight couldn't make a 3" pile in and stayed out of combat, seers lost 1 little seer to a fist in dc and stayed in combat. 2 squads of termies arrived within 6-7" of the seers, another squad of termies deployed near the furioso pod near scatbikes sitting on a point - i needed this one for maelstorm. One squad of termies charged seers and made a 7" charge but rolled too high so that the 2-d squad wouldn't make it in btb with seers and could only assault a knight - whichi didn't want to do and just stayed there. The third squad assaultedscatbikes, taking 1 casualty to overwatch. Wiped bikes and scored a maelstorm point. The other termies and remaining couple dc killed 3 small seers and a farseer - only warlord farseer and an autarch remained - they failed ld and ran away thanks to ini6 but the direction led them straight towards the 3-d squad of termies that had wiped scatbikes this turn, though, not close enough.
D-scythes wiped a squad of termies that had just mauled a seercouncil. Tantalus shot down 2 termies that hadn't assaulted a knight with a hell ton of ap2. Knight assaulted 3 termies and rolled poorly on stomps. 3++ saved vs a d-sword. In return, knight saved 2 wounds with 5++ and fnp.
The remaining dc charged warlord seer and autarch, termies that had been on a point rolled 1-2 on dt and didn't reach warlord seer and autarch. So, they ranback to a point and scored it for another vp. Dc tied up autarch and warlord farseer again. FNP and fearless are amazing. Knight once again didn't manage to do anything to termies - no 6-s, took a wound in return.
Next turn the knight finally stomps 2 termies and saves everything with 5++ and fnp, the last one refuses to flee. Farseer and autarch kill 1 dc and only 1 is left but pf smashes an autarch - only farseer is left. 1 remaining termiein combat with a knight gets stomped, though 3 termies held himup for 2 full turns, inflicting a wound in process, but it didn't matter much as i was not planning on killing a knight anyway. 4 termies finally made it out of ruin and charged a seer - right in time cause the seer killed the last dc. Termies smashed a warlord farseer for kingslayer and stw and consolidated back towards a point.
The rest of the game was rolling around and scoring. In the end, termies scored 6 VP out of my total 10. Eldar scored 9. So, it's a minor victory for ba.

 Voidwraith wrote:
I also like the fact that there's finally a tank heavy formation, though I'm not sure it's game breaking in any way.

I have a question:

Units that scout cannot usually charge during turn 1. However, there is no general restriction on units charging out of scouting transports, hence the Ork Blitz Brigade formation expressly prohibits it.

Could I not take a big death company squad with Astorath in a lost brotherhood detachment, stick them in a scouting land raider from the formation for a free 18" move, then get out and murderstomp everything in turn 1?

Umm... I guess so?
Not sure about Astorath specifically, because I'm not sure if you can put jump infantry in a transport unless it has a specific provision for them, but death company in a scouting land raider sounds about right.

You can get a free 12-and-a-bit" move from a bastion with an escape hatch for >100 points, so a land raider formation being able to do better is only fair, I guess.

 Krusha wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
I also like the fact that there's finally a tank heavy formation, though I'm not sure it's game breaking in any way.

I have a question:

Units that scout cannot usually charge during turn 1. However, there is no general restriction on units charging out of scouting transports, hence the Ork Blitz Brigade formation expressly prohibits it.

Could I not take a big death company squad with Astorath in a lost brotherhood detachment, stick them in a scouting land raider from the formation for a free 18" move, then get out and murderstomp everything in turn 1?

I would say that the unit in the transport also made a scouting move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
To avoid further asumptions, here how the game went - not making a full report, just short about termies and stuff connected to them.

All termies were assault ones with th+ss. Simply in ds reserves.

Furioso in a pod with beacon dropped, furioso killed 2 little seers and wounded an autarch than the dread got wrecked by a plane but the pod remained. Another pod with beacon and marins deployed on a point near the middle of the map. DC advanced and ended up being within like 15" from this pod.
Seers and knight attacked dc but didn't manage to wipe them - the knight couldn't make a 3" pile in and stayed out of combat, seers lost 1 little seer to a fist in dc and stayed in combat. 2 squads of termies arrived within 6-7" of the seers, another squad of termies deployed near the furioso pod near scatbikes sitting on a point - i needed this one for maelstorm. One squad of termies charged seers and made a 7" charge but rolled too high so that the 2-d squad wouldn't make it in btb with seers and could only assault a knight - whichi didn't want to do and just stayed there. The third squad assaultedscatbikes, taking 1 casualty to overwatch. Wiped bikes and scored a maelstorm point. The other termies and remaining couple dc killed 3 small seers and a farseer - only warlord farseer and an autarch remained - they failed ld and ran away thanks to ini6 but the direction led them straight towards the 3-d squad of termies that had wiped scatbikes this turn, though, not close enough.
D-scythes wiped a squad of termies that had just mauled a seercouncil. Tantalus shot down 2 termies that hadn't assaulted a knight with a hell ton of ap2. Knight assaulted 3 termies and rolled poorly on stomps. 3++ saved vs a d-sword. In return, knight saved 2 wounds with 5++ and fnp.
The remaining dc charged warlord seer and autarch, termies that had been on a point rolled 1-2 on dt and didn't reach warlord seer and autarch. So, they ranback to a point and scored it for another vp. Dc tied up autarch and warlord farseer again. FNP and fearless are amazing. Knight once again didn't manage to do anything to termies - no 6-s, took a wound in return.
Next turn the knight finally stomps 2 termies and saves everything with 5++ and fnp, the last one refuses to flee. Farseer and autarch kill 1 dc and only 1 is left but pf smashes an autarch - only farseer is left. 1 remaining termiein combat with a knight gets stomped, though 3 termies held himup for 2 full turns, inflicting a wound in process, but it didn't matter much as i was not planning on killing a knight anyway. 4 termies finally made it out of ruin and charged a seer - right in time cause the seer killed the last dc. Termies smashed a warlord farseer for kingslayer and stw and consolidated back towards a point.
The rest of the game was rolling around and scoring. In the end, termies scored 6 VP out of my total 10. Eldar scored 9. So, it's a minor victory for ba.

I guess anything really is possible with maelstrom.

Is there any way of buffing termie's offensive power on the charge? Like +1 attack from banner or hatred, ws5 or anything like this?

 koooaei wrote:
Is there any way of buffing termie's offensive power on the charge? Like +1 attack from banner or hatred, ws5 or anything like this?

You could always attach a chaplain for Hatred, though I am uncertain if they would fit in a pod at that point.

Chaplain would prevent charges.

 koooaei wrote:
Chaplain would prevent charges.

Is a Chaplain not in the DS+Charge formation? I confess I neither play BA nor own their new book, but want to help!

No, the only choices are assault terminators with no ICs or sanguinary guard with Dante/Sanguinor. You pick Dante there for sure.

There is a large formation that deep strikes turn 1. I'm not sure what to think about one.

Martel732 wrote:
No, the only choices are assault terminators with no ICs or sanguinary guard with Dante/Sanguinor. You pick Dante there for sure.

Really? My superheavies would rather fight against Dante/Sanguinor than assault terminators. Like, if my opponent brought this formation and didn't bring Terminators, I'd probably offer to let him change his list, since they'd be awful against my tanks.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, the only choices are assault terminators with no ICs or sanguinary guard with Dante/Sanguinor. You pick Dante there for sure.

Really? My superheavies would rather fight against Dante/Sanguinor than assault terminators. Like, if my opponent brought this formation and didn't bring Terminators, I'd probably offer to let him change his list, since they'd be awful against my tanks.

I mean choose Dante over the Sanguinor.

Don't let people list tailor. It makes for bad habits. It's not like sanguinary guard can't have melta pistols.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, the only choices are assault terminators with no ICs or sanguinary guard with Dante/Sanguinor. You pick Dante there for sure.

Really? My superheavies would rather fight against Dante/Sanguinor than assault terminators. Like, if my opponent brought this formation and didn't bring Terminators, I'd probably offer to let him change his list, since they'd be awful against my tanks.

I mean choose Dante over the Sanguinor.

Don't let people list tailor. It makes for bad habits. It's not like sanguinary guard can't have melta pistols.

Actually I actively encourage list tailoring to avoid bad matchups, since I play a superheavy tank company or an ordinatus army, both of which could be very not-fun for my opponents! I would rather them stomp my face into the ground than not enjoy the game!

And yes, I see what you mean now. As for melta pistols... all of my tanks either have access to optional Armoured Ceramite or come with it standard.

Well they're still ST 8, just like the thunder hammers.

What about the stormraven formation with teleport homers? Do they work from inside the stormravens?

 koooaei wrote:
What about the stormraven formation with teleport homers? Do they work from inside the stormravens?

No. That formation is now basically useless thanks to the FAQ. Not that I was going to buy 2 more stormravens anyway.

You can still try to deepstrike the marines with it's special rule. Than deepstrike pods with stuff for t1 assault. Very risky though.
Inquisition sculls and pray for 1-st turn, i guess

 koooaei wrote:
You can still try to deepstrike the marines with it's special rule. Than deepstrike pods with stuff for t1 assault. Very risky though.
Inquisition sculls and pray for 1-st turn, i guess

That seems like a really good way to lose quickly.

It couldalso fail vs mass reserves.

The greatest asset BA have is army speed. BA can't shoot well and don't really fight well in CC. Using a lot of drop pods and deep strikes with foot units takes that advantage away.

Of course, this is the same advantage that DE have, and they are the worst list, so....yeah.

Martel732 wrote:
Well they're still ST 8, just like the thunder hammers.

Yes, though the Ordinatus engines are 14/14/13 and reduce shooting attacks against them by -1 strength on the front and sides (and sometimes up to -3 strength depending on the game turn). So if I park my butt against the table edges, I'm literally immune to meltagun fire, while thunderhammers still give me fits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The greatest asset BA have is army speed. BA can't shoot well and don't really fight well in CC. Using a lot of drop pods and deep strikes with foot units takes that advantage away.

Of course, this is the same advantage that DE have, and they are the worst list, so....yeah.

I would say BA's greatest asset now are assaulting thunderhammers from Deep Strike. I'm still deciding how to cope with this D: