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Lash whip and bonesword are tyranid weapons. I though they were created by the tyranids, in their hives, out of bio stuff. So how did the cultists get their (too numerous) hands on them?

They have rending claws because they're part of their bodies. And they use human weapons (lasguns, mining laser, and now what seems to be circular saws and other mining-related equipment). This all made sense to me. The bonesword and lash whip, not so much.
Is there something I'm completely missing fluff wise?

Perhaps crafted by the Patriarch through some fashion.

fresus wrote:
Lash whip and bonesword are tyranid weapons. I though they were created by the tyranids, in their hives, out of bio stuff. So how did the cultists get their (too numerous) hands on them?

They have rending claws because they're part of their bodies. And they use human weapons (lasguns, mining laser, and now what seems to be circular saws and other mining-related equipment). This all made sense to me. The bonesword and lash whip, not so much.
Is there something I'm completely missing fluff wise?

I was under the impression bioweapons were grown at the same time as the host organism. So it would make sense for the Patriarch to *grow them* onto genestealers of various generations if the need arose.

If the Genestealers are capable of spawning other Tyranid creatures, one wonders if it isn't possible for a cult to evolve into an actual Hive Fleet if there isn't any Hive Fleet "nearby".

Tyran wrote:
If the Genestealers are capable of spawning other Tyranid creatures, one wonders if it isn't possible for a cult to evolve into an actual Hive Fleet if there isn't any Hive Fleet "nearby".

They can't spawn other creatures, albeit some genestealers are directly spawned by hive fleets. I dunno it was just an idea on how it could be possible.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
If the Genestealers are capable of spawning other Tyranid creatures, one wonders if it isn't possible for a cult to evolve into an actual Hive Fleet if there isn't any Hive Fleet "nearby".

They can't spawn other creatures, albeit some genestealers are directly spawned by hive fleets. I dunno it was just an idea on how it could be possible.

Tyranid bio-weapons are Tyranid creatures, if you can spawn them then you in theory can spawn other Tyranid creatures.

Tyran wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
If the Genestealers are capable of spawning other Tyranid creatures, one wonders if it isn't possible for a cult to evolve into an actual Hive Fleet if there isn't any Hive Fleet "nearby".

They can't spawn other creatures, albeit some genestealers are directly spawned by hive fleets. I dunno it was just an idea on how it could be possible.

Tyranid bio-weapons are Tyranid creatures, if you can spawn them then you in theory can spawn other Tyranid creatures.

Yeah which I suppose shot that one down. Although bio-weapons range from symbiotic organs to fully formed symbiotic creatures with their own limited consciousness.

Tyran wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
If the Genestealers are capable of spawning other Tyranid creatures, one wonders if it isn't possible for a cult to evolve into an actual Hive Fleet if there isn't any Hive Fleet "nearby".

They can't spawn other creatures, albeit some genestealers are directly spawned by hive fleets. I dunno it was just an idea on how it could be possible.

Tyranid bio-weapons are Tyranid creatures, if you can spawn them then you in theory can spawn other Tyranid creatures.

then the real question is, do they know how the spawn other tyranid creatures

It's new fluff and we don't know yet! Give it a few days...

Vorian wrote:
Is it a change that the cults know something is coming?

In the old background the cults were unaware about the fleets coming until they arrived and took over as far as I remember, but now they are referring to the coming fleets as gods

Depends on which "old background" you're referring to.

In the 1st Edition fluff, the Tyranids and Genestealers had nothing to do with eachother, but they were slowly intermixed. By the time the 2nd Edition Tyranid Codex was released,they were fully intermeshed, and the cultists knew the Tyranids were their gods.

Gods that showed up and ate the cultists indiscriminately along with the rest of the planet's defenders, lol. Which is why I've argued it's silly to let Cult ally with Tyranids.


But no, to answer your question, the leaked fluff referring to the Tyranids as gods isn't new. That's been around for over 20 years.

Being consumed by the hive fleet is their "ascention".

All biological matter on a conquored planet is consumed by the fleet, including the Tyranid invasion force. It is then repurposed to spawn whatever the fleet needs next time.

I don't see BB as being a silly idea. At that point the cult is just another military asset for the fleet.

I guess being a genestealer hybrid lets you give birth to weapon organisms now.

With genestealer cults weapons being both Tyranid and Astra Militarum, looks like we will finally get a canonical explanation for a C.S Goto multilaser carnifex

 Baldeagle91 wrote:


Either way they have always in some way, shape or form been under the psychic control of the patriarch. That said I was always under the impression that the religious/social reasons behind the cults was more a recruiting tool late in the cults lifespan as it gets larger to encourage more recruits to volunteer before indoctrination. The initial cultists always retreat underground as their mutations are far too obvious.

Well, that kinda makes sense. I could also imagine a bunch of underhivers wanting to become members despite knowing that there's something weird about it, just to gain some power. And of course if they are recruiting from underhive and have a large amount of affiliated gangs, the low-level members don't even have to know anything, just that they take orders from some unknown bigger gang and those who are loyal will be rewarded.

I don't know if there's really that much difference between a GSC and some random Chaos cult that has been sipping daemon blood and received a few blessings - growing a few extra appendages is pretty standard, right? - so I suppose you could use the codex for something like that as well.

But that's the thing. The Tyranid creatures aren't supposed to recognize the Cult as allies. They just consume them right along with everyone else. So sure, the Cult allies with the Tyranids. Then the Tyranids just eat them anyway. How do you represent that on the tabletop?

Making them allies (at any level) ruins the entire thematic concept of the Cult. It's the grimdark tragic downfall. The Cult puts in so much work to subvert the planet's human authority and welcome their saviors... and their reward is to be completely disregarded and consumed as if they were nobody special.


I think people don't really put much consideration into the story aspect of it. The ultimate fate of the Genestealer Cult is supposed to be tragic and senseless. The Patriarch, the magi, and the rest of the Cult's leadership have led their followers not to salvation and ascension, but to ruin and oblivion. You're taking their sermonic propaganda and interpreting it at face value. Ascension is an imaginary story told by the leaders of the cult. It's not a real thing. The Cult believes it will ascend. The Heaven's Gate guys believed they'd ascend too. The Hive Fleet isn't part of this ascension nonsense. It's an alien intelligence with no concept of the human ways of the Cult.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Gods that showed up and ate the cultists indiscriminately along with the rest of the planet's defenders, lol. Which is why I've argued it's silly to let Cult ally with Tyranids.

To counter that and without naming any religious beliefs, there are a lot of people even in todays age let alone in the past history of human kind that will GLADLY die for their god. So not it's not sill to let Cult ally with Tyranids at all.

For a lot of people dying for your god or dying at the feet of your god means you will be with them in "what ever world/afterlife" you believe in.

As to Tyranids will absorb them right away if false in my eyes. Tyrainds wouldn't be that stupid to devourer their followers just because they show up. Tyranids don't devourer anything until the battle is over so yes the Genestealer Cult SHOULD be battle brothers with Tyranids.

As noted by the image above taken right out of Codex: Tyranids 2nd Edition, I respect your right to be wrong, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But that's the thing. The Tyranid creatures aren't supposed to recognize the Cult as allies. They just consume them right along with everyone else. So sure, the Cult allies with the Tyranids. Then the Tyranids just eat them anyway. How do you represent that on the tabletop?

Making them allies (at any level) ruins the entire thematic concept of the Cult. It's the grimdark tragic downfall. The Cult puts in so much work to subvert the planet's human authority and welcome their saviors... and their reward is to be completely disregarded and consumed as if they were nobody special.


I think people don't really put much consideration into the story aspect of it. The ultimate fate of the Genestealer Cult is supposed to be tragic and senseless. The Patriarch, the magi, and the rest of the Cult's leadership have led their followers not to salvation and ascension, but to ruin and oblivion. You're taking their sermonic propaganda and interpreting it at face value. Ascension is an imaginary story told by the leaders of the cult. It's not a real thing. The Cult believes it will ascend. The Heaven's Gate guys believed they'd ascend too. The Hive Fleet isn't part of this ascension nonsense. It's an alien intelligence with no concept of the human ways of the Cult.

Great post, and I totally agree. Once a world has had it's defenses sufficiently compromised by a cult, a Hive Fleet would be flooding it with billions of organisms. On this scale the actions of a few thousand cultists are no longer a consideration for the Hive Mind. In fact a larger priority for it at this point would be to get some cultists on as many evacuation transports as possible to spread further infestations. Putting them on a frontline alongside monstrous creatures, bio-titans and millions of guants is like adding a couple of drops of water to a tidal wave.

The main motivation behind players wanting BB rules is to find powergamey combos like Invisible Dimachaerons or tanks full of Warriors. Personally I'm more than happy with AoC, which provides plenty of options without crazy fluff-breaking situations.

Disagree

I think that tyranids, when they are under synapse control would not attack the cult as long as long as the hive mind deem them useful. However, they will gladly eat them once their utility is past its peremption date. THe fact that the cultist will get eaten doesn't have to be represented in the tabletop game, since we can assume that it occurs after the battle. Also, Tyranids themselves are consumed by the hive fleet once the planets is conquered. But there's no rule to represent that in the game.

 xttz wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But that's the thing. The Tyranid creatures aren't supposed to recognize the Cult as allies. They just consume them right along with everyone else. So sure, the Cult allies with the Tyranids. Then the Tyranids just eat them anyway. How do you represent that on the tabletop?

Making them allies (at any level) ruins the entire thematic concept of the Cult. It's the grimdark tragic downfall. The Cult puts in so much work to subvert the planet's human authority and welcome their saviors... and their reward is to be completely disregarded and consumed as if they were nobody special.


I think people don't really put much consideration into the story aspect of it. The ultimate fate of the Genestealer Cult is supposed to be tragic and senseless. The Patriarch, the magi, and the rest of the Cult's leadership have led their followers not to salvation and ascension, but to ruin and oblivion. You're taking their sermonic propaganda and interpreting it at face value. Ascension is an imaginary story told by the leaders of the cult. It's not a real thing. The Cult believes it will ascend. The Heaven's Gate guys believed they'd ascend too. The Hive Fleet isn't part of this ascension nonsense. It's an alien intelligence with no concept of the human ways of the Cult.

Great post, and I totally agree. Once a world has had it's defenses sufficiently compromised by a cult, a Hive Fleet would be flooding it with billions of organisms. On this scale the actions of a few thousand cultists are no longer a consideration for the Hive Mind. In fact a larger priority for it at this point would be to get some cultists on as many evacuation transports as possible to spread further infestations. Putting them on a frontline alongside monstrous creatures, bio-titans and millions of guants is like adding a couple of drops of water to a tidal wave.

The main motivation behind players wanting BB rules is to find powergamey combos like Invisible Dimachaerons or tanks full of Warriors. Personally I'm more than happy with AoC, which provides plenty of options without crazy fluff-breaking situations.

Agree with the transports but using the 2nd best mcdonalds available that's a fw unit with experimental rules an example of a broken list is a little far fetched.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But that's the thing. The Tyranid creatures aren't supposed to recognize the Cult as allies. They just consume them right along with everyone else. So sure, the Cult allies with the Tyranids. Then the Tyranids just eat them anyway. How do you represent that on the tabletop?

Making them allies (at any level) ruins the entire thematic concept of the Cult. It's the grimdark tragic downfall. The Cult puts in so much work to subvert the planet's human authority and welcome their saviors... and their reward is to be completely disregarded and consumed as if they were nobody special.


I think people don't really put much consideration into the story aspect of it. The ultimate fate of the Genestealer Cult is supposed to be tragic and senseless. The Patriarch, the magi, and the rest of the Cult's leadership have led their followers not to salvation and ascension, but to ruin and oblivion. You're taking their sermonic propaganda and interpreting it at face value. Ascension is an imaginary story told by the leaders of the cult. It's not a real thing. The Cult believes it will ascend. The Heaven's Gate guys believed they'd ascend too. The Hive Fleet isn't part of this ascension nonsense. It's an alien intelligence with no concept of the human ways of the Cult.

Totally disagree with that one. Especially seeing those who actually have genestealer DNA become directly under control of the Synapse hive mind. By comparison their human parents and affiliates (aka affiliate gangs etc) wouldn't be. So while those in the background would most likely be nommed straight away, the Genestealer Cultists on the tabletop would not be absorbed any sooner than a normal genestealer or other synapse or non synapse creature (seeing some tyranids operate independently anyway).

They may be changing the fluff, but it was always hinted that Cultists were directly under the control of the Hive Mind once the Hive Fleet was within a certain range. Only a few purestrain genestealers tend to flee the hive fleets advance, long before they actually make planetfall. As such it totally makes sense for them to be full allies, it make more sense than some IOM factions who will open fire on each other quite openly.

 xttz wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But that's the thing. The Tyranid creatures aren't supposed to recognize the Cult as allies. They just consume them right along with everyone else. So sure, the Cult allies with the Tyranids. Then the Tyranids just eat them anyway. How do you represent that on the tabletop?

Making them allies (at any level) ruins the entire thematic concept of the Cult. It's the grimdark tragic downfall. The Cult puts in so much work to subvert the planet's human authority and welcome their saviors... and their reward is to be completely disregarded and consumed as if they were nobody special.

I think people don't really put much consideration into the story aspect of it. The ultimate fate of the Genestealer Cult is supposed to be tragic and senseless. The Patriarch, the magi, and the rest of the Cult's leadership have led their followers not to salvation and ascension, but to ruin and oblivion. You're taking their sermonic propaganda and interpreting it at face value. Ascension is an imaginary story told by the leaders of the cult. It's not a real thing. The Cult believes it will ascend. The Heaven's Gate guys believed they'd ascend too. The Hive Fleet isn't part of this ascension nonsense. It's an alien intelligence with no concept of the human ways of the Cult.

Great post, and I totally agree. Once a world has had it's defenses sufficiently compromised by a cult, a Hive Fleet would be flooding it with billions of organisms. On this scale the actions of a few thousand cultists are no longer a consideration for the Hive Mind. In fact a larger priority for it at this point would be to get some cultists on as many evacuation transports as possible to spread further infestations. Putting them on a frontline alongside monstrous creatures, bio-titans and millions of guants is like adding a couple of drops of water to a tidal wave.

The main motivation behind players wanting BB rules is to find powergamey combos like Invisible Dimachaerons or tanks full of Warriors. Personally I'm more than happy with AoC, which provides plenty of options without crazy fluff-breaking situations.

Well part of my response here is mentioned after the first quote. The cult has many uses and results. Sometimes it simply creates political upheaval so there is no united front to fight back against the main invasion, sometimes it results in a civil war, sometimes it results in regime change or even more rarely a total planets population being converted to the cult!

This whole cults acting purely on *mistaken religious belief* thing seems to be new to the new teasers. I wouldn't be surprised if they changed the fluff, just as an excuse to deny Tyranids full allies, but the previous fluff doesn't support this view at all.

At this point, with heavy armour apparently a part of the Cult forces, the chances of them being ally status with Nids is slim. Nids+Tanks is Just Plain Wrong©®™.

I am also of the opinion that the later fluff (2nd Ed onwards) is fine and will most likely be what the new Codex is going to use.

Allies of Convenience, though, does not mean they aren't fighting side by side It means they cannot cast psychic buffs at each other, join units and so on. They do join forces in a battle though.

It was mentioned earlier on this or the previous page that Tyranids and GSC had been linked fluffwise in 2nd Edition (Ruleset in '93, Codex: Tyranids in '95). This was a lot earlier. Ca. 1990, in Advanced Space Crusade they were already fully connected.


The first 40k Tyranid Army list was the one in White Dwarf 145 (1st Edition) and both were fighting side-by-side




Some page scans from the list:







We should wait for the Codex with fluff discussions like these. Answers will be in it for sure

The main motivation behind players wanting BB rules is to find powergamey combos

Without a doubt. I understand that for the majority of the players, consideration of things like "theme" and "story" is the boring stuff that gets in the way of finding the rules and painting guides.

But as somebody whose first Genestealer Cult army saw the table over 20 years ago, the tragic futility of the Cult's existence is part of its charm. The idea of the victorious Genestealer Cult striding out to meet their Tyranid saviors, and getting swept under by the tide of teeth and claws is the most perfect ending for them possible.

40K is chock full of these themes too. The entire Horus Heresy is a stark example. The Traitors thought they were doing the right thing, but their reward was 10,000 years of damnation, anger, mutation, and misery to which they desperately try to fool themselves into thinking was what they wanted all along. Either that or they've become so sanity-blasted that they're no longer capable of rational thought. Nobody in 40K gets what they want. Why would the Genestealer Cult? The only happy ending is for the Orks, because all they want is to fight. For everybody else, it's all a lie. Serving the Emperor is a lie. Resisting the Emperor is a lie. And that's where the Chaos Cults and the Genestealer Cults and the Tau subversion comes in. Newer, different lies to manipulate the weak-minded into believing.

The Genestealer Cult isn't supposed to be a military asset for the Hive Fleet. They're the locator beacon for the Hive Fleet to find populated worlds. If the Cult represents biomass that won't resist, all the better. But the Cult itself is just a manifestation of the Patriarch's slow evolution of understanding of human culture to create a fabricated "religion" for them to follow. The Hive Mind doens't believe in the ascension. But it knows that its followers will be receptive to the idea.

Handing Tyranids tanks would effectively make fielding regular guard the most useless thing in the game. Why would anyone take plain guard, ever, when they can just take the Tanks + Biomonsters of a BB genestealer cult.

No, there's no way they end up BB. It would mean the end of IG almost completely.

DAMN YOU GW! DAMN YOU TO HELL! Three years, since I last played a 40k game and now I am excited like the first time I read through the 2nd edition codex.

In all honesty I am confused why cultists are BS3?

Like aren't renegades and conscripts BS2? Which I would of thought would of reflected GSC's melee focus better?

If the have BS2 and more expensive vehicles with limited upgrade options I would be completely fine with GSC's running tanks and allying with normal Nids.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Handing Tyranids tanks would effectively make fielding regular guard the most useless thing in the game. Why would anyone take plain guard, ever, when they can just take the Tanks + Biomonsters of a BB genestealer cult.

No, there's no way they end up BB. It would mean the end of IG almost completely.

I really truly cannot tell if you're serious or joking here.

Are you saying that the ability to ally in tyranids as battle brothers would make IG totally obsolete, because who would take IG at that point?

...You know IG is currently classified as "Armies of the Imperium" right? this means they have...if I'm counting right...eleven battle brother factions already?

What do tyranid MCs do that, say, allied Kastelan robots or dreadknights do not?

Yeah, I fail to see how having IG stuff as BB will be an issue when half the armies in the game already can have IG stuff as BB.

the_scotsman wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Handing Tyranids tanks would effectively make fielding regular guard the most useless thing in the game. Why would anyone take plain guard, ever, when they can just take the Tanks + Biomonsters of a BB genestealer cult.

No, there's no way they end up BB. It would mean the end of IG almost completely.

I really truly cannot tell if you're serious or joking here.

Are you saying that the ability to ally in tyranids as battle brothers would make IG totally obsolete, because who would take IG at that point?

...You know IG is currently classified as "Armies of the Imperium" right? this means they have...if I'm counting right...eleven battle brother factions already?

What do tyranid MCs do that, say, allied Kastelan robots or dreadknights do not?

Armies of invisible FMCs backed up by the IG armory is pretty devastating.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Handing Tyranids tanks would effectively make fielding regular guard the most useless thing in the game. Why would anyone take plain guard, ever, when they can just take the Tanks + Biomonsters of a BB genestealer cult.

No, there's no way they end up BB. It would mean the end of IG almost completely.

I really truly cannot tell if you're serious or joking here.

Are you saying that the ability to ally in tyranids as battle brothers would make IG totally obsolete, because who would take IG at that point?

...You know IG is currently classified as "Armies of the Imperium" right? this means they have...if I'm counting right...eleven battle brother factions already?

What do tyranid MCs do that, say, allied Kastelan robots or dreadknights do not?

Armies of invisible FMCs backed up by the IG armory is pretty devastating.

You mean no different to the likes of other FMC's like flying demon princes? And I bet at most they'll get sentinels, chimeras and non specialist leman russes. So no fliers, arty, punishers etc.

I would bet BS2 akin to renegades if it wasn't for the fact their basic infantry is BS3.... 'cos reasons'.