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Hello there!

I have a Chaos army that currently consists of:
-2 Chaos Lords (Kranon the Relentless and That Guy.
-Daemon Prince (Carl)
-Sorcerer
-Helbrute
-20 Cultists
-10 Papa Nurgle CSM lead by 1 Aspiring Champion
-8 Khorne CSM
-8 Khorne CSM (noticing a pattern )
-6 Chosen
-3 Bikers
-5 Terminators
(A total of 2815 points the way I build them)

I have some strong one-on-one murder power, I have some strong anti-horde power and I have two psykers...but my list thoroughly lacks a lot of anti-vehicle/anti-dreadnought/anti-GK knight.
But I do know Necrons and Orks can be used alongside a Chaos army so I took a look at the "Start Collecting!" packages for either side (because it's good stuff for a low price) and it'd yield the following:

If I go with the Orks I get:
-Pain boy
-Ammo runt
-Five Nobz
-Eleven Boyz
-Deff Dread

If I go with the Necrons I get:
-Necron Overlord
-Triarch Stalker
-Scarab Swarm (3 Scarabs)
-Twelve Necron Warriors

Daemons are always an option, eventhough one of my opponents fields Ga-.. Grey Knights.

My question to you lovely people is:
"What would be the best way to take fill my Chaos Space Marine army's holes (like lack of vehicles, heavy support and fast stuff) without getting carried away and spending over €100 on another army?"

Thanks in advance!

Get a renegade knight and you are done.

No risk on getting into an other army and to be honest, orks and necrons don't fix nor fir in your army


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or get one of these



https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NL/Kytan-Daemon-Engine-of-Khorne

 oldzoggy wrote:
Get a renegade knight and you are done.

No risk on getting into an other army and to be honest, orks and necrons don't fix nor fir in your army


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or get one of these



https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NL/Kytan-Daemon-Engine-of-Khorne

Thank you for the advice!
However, I don't particularly like the idea of spending €100 on 1 model but it's something I'll consider.
Cheers.

Or you could get yourself some obliterators


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want want something else you could also go for Chaos Rapier Weapons Batteries. Those things are quite good for the points and the bane of heavy stuff.

Well, I'd go with Necrons. Overlord, 10 Warriors in Night Scythe.

Sure thats a nice way to start with necrons but how does that help a CSM player whp has no heavy support units at all with killing vehicles and modern big stuff ?

Isn't it a better idea to just you know extend on the CSM or Daemons in order to kill them ?

A daemons allied detachment with fateweaver and some horrors could help with the superheavies/mc's. Fateweaver gets a "18 d shot at bs6 if he can pull the power off. Decent chance against dreadknights and superheavies. This would cover some skyfire as well, on a hard to hit platform.

Not to mention he has plenty of other powers that can help as well as a once per turn reroll.

Ive heard great things about kytan daemon engines and rapier batteries though.

Or stay chaos and look at Land Raider / Lord of Skulls / Heldrake / Forgefiend / Defiler / Predator / more Terminators / Havocs ... all of which seem to offer anti vehicle / dreadnaught (and possibly knight) options?

FWIW, the Ork codex has relatively limited amounts of reliable anti-armor. One of our "best" solutions is to rush something and try to glance it to death with tens if not hundreds of choppa hits, followed up by a powerklaw (which will frequently blow up the target and then wound/kill the PK wielder and other Orks around him).

The few sources of AP2 and AP3 weapons are, of course, primarily fired at BS2 and have "fluffy" rules that make them unreliable, dangerous to the wielder, or both. Hope you're good at rolling 5s and 6s!

So... I'd not necessarily look to the current Ork codex to fill an anti-armor / anti-vehicle gap. As an Ork player, I often wonder about allying in something that will help with that gap as well.

Is use renegade guards as allies to fix the hole of long ranged anti heavy stuff.

How about CSM formations from Black Legion or Traitor's Hate?

Necron allies would be better than orks. Or you could use forge world.

Instead of a minimal contingent of Necrons, I'd go for Destroyer Lord, 6 Wraiths, and 10 Immortals in Night Scythes. The latter gives you anti-tank, anti-air, and anti-infantry, while the DL leading a Wraiths unit is still one of the best cc units in the game.

Orks are noted for how bad their anti tank capability is and one of the main reasons that Necrons do ok against AV is that they have gauss on everything and generally lack traditional high str AP1/2 anti tank solutions. Why you would turn to either of those armies when you don't have a single CSM heavy support choice already boggles the mind. You have a decent amount of choice between Obliterators, Las preds, vindicators, Havocs and maulerfiends to do the heavy lifting in you anti vehicle role.

You also say that you are lacking anti GK power. This begs the question of what special weapons you've given the rest of your army, since plasma and melta are the only real options in our dex, and you should have a reasonable amount available to you from what you have listed.

Speaking of what you have listed, a very quick and incredibly rough tally doesn't seem to add up to anywhere near 2850 points.

Also speaking of what you have listed, I can't help but notice that there's no Heldrake on that list. Is there a reason for that?

Thank you all for the responses

Regarding the question "Why Orks?" or "Why Necrons?", it was just something I mentioned because an Ork player kept telli g me how awesome their anti-tank is, but after taking a peek into the Ork codex I know that that's not really true.

Just wanted to explore the other options, especially Daemons, just to see if there's something that provides more than the CSM anti-vehicle things like Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes and Heldrakes.

Regarding the amount of points:
There was indeed a calculator hiccup involved

Yea dealing with vehicles isn't really an issue CSM have. Anti armour can be sprinkled around practically every unit so that even if your dedicated anti armour gets taken out you still have options. Apart from warp talons and cultists I don't think there's a unit in the codex that doesn't have some way to effectively harm vehicles.

So, in all your veteran opinions, what would be THE best move regarding Fast Attack/Anti-Vehicle units be?
Land Raider / Heldrake / Forgefiend / Defiler / Predator / more Terminators / Havocs / Daemons?

I'll be mostly against GK, Necrons, Skitarii and Orks, if that information's worth something.
With my current army I do have load-outs for each of these (Anti-Horde, Plasma Guns vs. GK, etc.) but I was interested in the opinions in others regarding this since I don't particularly like having a 100% floot-slogging army (ignoring the Deep Striking Termies, the Bikers and the DP) or an army that consists of only one Helbrute and one DP for big punchy things (not that my Chaos Lords aren't punchy).

Thanks for the replies so far, everyone

I think bikes with two meltaguns and either meltabombs or a power fist on the unit leader is a pretty optimal choice. I'm no expert so I'd be interested to hear other opinions, but that unit offers a lot in different areas without becoming expensive. Meltabombs on a small unit, a power fist if you have a couple of extra bodies. A unit of 5 with two meltaguns and a power fist is only 155 points. Offensively you have a good way to deliver 2 melta shots (good chance of hitting side armour) and a follow up charge with 3 power fist attacks (rear armour if not a walker) against vehicles. It's not a bad unit against infantry either, with decent firepower against both hordes and elite infantry and not a bad follow up charge on top of that. Defensively they have T5, 3+ saves and jink. I can't think of a situation where a unit of bikes is a bad inclusion in a list

Alternatively the auto/las predator isn't bad. Havocs with four autocannons is decent too. Bikes provide more flexibility though

IMHO, every chaos army should have at least one Heldrake available to them. After that for FA choices it's usually a toss up between spawn and bikers, mainly dictated by if you need more ranged anti tank (bikers) or more ablative wounds and a distraction / bully unit (spawn), though either choice or raptors are usable if you have a strong personal preference. Warp Talons should be avoided unless in the Raptors Talon formation, and even then it's a personal choice.

Oblits are the stand out choice for heavy support, not only for anti tank but for everything else as well. Taking 9 oblits and a pair of Heldrakes then working out what you've got left to play with would be one of the more competitive ways of making a list. If you want to bust light vehicles, Autocannon Havocs are right at the top of the list. Las preds, or auto/las preds if you need to shave points are OK, but with nothing else but a Helbrute to catch your opponents anti tank fire, they're going to go down hard, even with AV13 front. Same with vindicators, except they have to get in close enough to expose their side armour and no smart enemy will let it live past turn 2.

Foregefiends are overcosted, but if you're taking a balestar sorcerer anyway, Prescience can allow one to do a half decent job of things. Defilers are complete trash, don't touch with a 10 foot pole. More termies is probably just throwing good points after bad at this point, but if you must, then termicide is the water to go (3X Terminators, 3X combi melta or plasma, 3X power axes). Unless you are running Kharn, there's really not much call for land raiders as the prevalence of grav, D weapons, Haywire, gauss and everything else that ignores the AV14 that you pay through the nose for means that you're throwing points away for nothing.

If you have enough fast threat saturation (Juggerlord, bikes, spawn, raptors, allied hounds, screamers, seekers etc), then maulerfiends can do exceptional work, though if you don't and there's not really any other threat of a turn 2 charge, then they'll get shot down in short order.

TL;DR? Take oblits for anti everything, maybe a squad of autohavocs, definitely buy a Heldrake.

Alright, thank you!

Heldrake and obliterators do indeed look really good and fun and I'll definitely look into it (50 bucks for both @ aliexpress).
However, I've got a few questions regarding Fast Attack, if anyone is interested in answering.

Bikers and spawn are, like Drasius said, really great choices for Fast Attack but what about the others?
Raptors, possessed or seekers; how good are they?
Raptors could be decent in a tag-team, right?
Maybe tag-team possessed with my daemon prince, or my chaos lord, and have a go at the enemy?
Maybe a juggerlord and have a squad or two of seekers tag along to wail all over the enemy.


When I pick up the heldrake and obliterators in a bit I will have:
-2 chaos lords
-Chaos sorcerer
-DP
-Helbrute
-Heldrake
-2-4 obliterators
-5 terminators
-3 bikers
-20 cultists
-6 chosen
-Aspiring champion
-26 chaos space marines

What other things could I use to fix any holes you guys see?
Thanks in advance!

Depends how you use raptors. In the traitors hate formation they are okay. Vanilla dex... not so much.

In the Vanilla dex they are mostly suicide squads and get used deepstriking with meltas or flamers. They can't charge then.

With traitors hate, the formation for them lets them and warptalons charge from deepstrike. Making them more usefull.

The same goes for Possesed. They get better with the Traitors hate formation, vanilla they are... meh. The formations is a DP and 3 groups of possesed I think. They should benefit from all their abilities instead of the 1 they normally have to roll for. Hell, I think they sell the formation in a box.

Seekers, not sure. Don't have the Deamon dex.

Watch out with your list, you have to many HQ in it, making it not battle forged. IF you do run the DP, 2 Lords and the Sorcerer.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
Depends how you use raptors. In the traitors hate formation they are okay. Vanilla dex... not so much.

In the Vanilla dex they are mostly suicide squads and get used deepstriking with meltas or flamers. They can't charge then.

With traitors hate, the formation for them lets them and warptalons charge from deepstrike. Making them more usefull.

The same goes for Possesed. They get better with the Traitors hate formation, vanilla they are... meh. The formations is a DP and 3 groups of possesed I think. They should benefit from all their abilities instead of the 1 they normally have to roll for. Hell, I think they sell the formation in a box.

Seekers, not sure. Don't have the Deamon dex.

Watch out with your list, you have to many HQ in it, making it not battle forged. IF you do run the DP, 2 Lords and the Sorcerer.

Thank you! This is most helpful!
I was indeed not intending on running all four the HQs.
Probably Lord and DP or Sorcerer and DP depending on opponent and such.
Would it be worth investing in the possessed + DP unit, then? (Not specifically asking Grumpy, so anyone's advice will be a great help!)
Thanks again!

Raptors are passable, dual Melta or dual Flamer are the only real options, but bikers are better, basically getting +1 toughness, twin-linked bolter, the option to Jink and the ability to move 12" and still get How for 3ppm (incidentally, the same as MoN costs on raptors for just +1 T). Raptors can be decent in the Raptor Talon where they can charge out of deepstrike though, but it's a disordered charge, so they're going to get bogged down since they don't have many attacks and then you've got the problem that CSM don't have any scatter mitigation or reserve manipulation so you're never going to be able to rely on them coming down where or when you want them to.

Possessed are terrible, costing a mindboggling 26 ppm for something with a 6" move and no guns. True, they're str5, fleet, fearless, have a 5++ and get a table to roll on, but none of that matters because they're T4 infantry moving 6" a turn and are going to get shot off the board before they reach combat 99 times out of 100. You'd be better off with 2 squads of regular marines for the same points and regular marines are bad.

Seekers are a slaanesh daemons unit, perhaps you meant Warp Talons? If you did, Warp Talons are pretty bad and are generally considered to be up there with mutilators for the worst unit in the book award. The fact that they have a pair of lightning claws is offset by the fact that they don't have any grenades, so they're going last when charging into cover, not to mention the single base attack, T4, no guns and the high cost of 30ppm. There is a small place for them in the Raptor Talon, though more often than not, you're better off with another squad of raptors instead. Obviously all the same remarks about the risks for raptors applies for Warp Talons, except that the Warp Talons cost twice as much as a Raptor squad and is therefore that much more painful when they don't come down until turn 4, scatter badly and mishap and get delayed twice and are still in reserves when the game ends on turn 6 and they never even hit the board.

For all 3 (and virtually everything else in the codex), Mark of Nurgle is generally considered the way to go, though running them naked to save points, or on the odd occasion Mark of Tzeentch for possessed or Warp Talons who you know are going to get shot with AP1/2/3 guns. Mark of slaanesh is fairly uncommon since T4 is easy to double out and therefore the FNP banner doesn't work as well as it should (bikes, being T5, are a different story and the only way to get a character FNP beyond rolling it off the boon table) and +1 initiative doesn't help them get across the board (which is their main problem). Obviously the same goes for Mark of Khorne since an extra attack on the charge doesn't help you if you never get there, and it's especially useless for raptors and Warp Talons in the Raptor Talon formation since they are forced to make disordered charges.

I'd suggest getting Traitor's Hate to look into (Look into a open copy if you got a GW store nearby), if you're interested in the formations. It has some interesting stuff that makes CSM okay.

I won't recommend anything yet since I don't know how you want to run your army, only you do.

 Drasius wrote:
Raptors are passable, dual Melta or dual Flamer are the only real options, but bikers are better, basically getting +1 toughness, twin-linked bolter, the option to Jink and the ability to move 12" and still get How for 3ppm (incidentally, the same as MoN costs on raptors for just +1 T). Raptors can be decent in the Raptor Talon where they can charge out of deepstrike though, but it's a disordered charge, so they're going to get bogged down since they don't have many attacks and then you've got the problem that CSM don't have any scatter mitigation or reserve manipulation so you're never going to be able to rely on them coming down where or when you want them to.

Possessed are terrible, costing a mindboggling 26 ppm for something with a 6" move and no guns. True, they're str5, fleet, fearless, have a 5++ and get a table to roll on, but none of that matters because they're T4 infantry moving 6" a turn and are going to get shot off the board before they reach combat 99 times out of 100. You'd be better off with 2 squads of regular marines for the same points and regular marines are bad.

Seekers are a slaanesh daemons unit, perhaps you meant Warp Talons? If you did, Warp Talons are pretty bad and are generally considered to be up there with mutilators for the worst unit in the book award. The fact that they have a pair of lightning claws is offset by the fact that they don't have any grenades, so they're going last when charging into cover, not to mention the single base attack, T4, no guns and the high cost of 30ppm. There is a small place for them in the Raptor Talon, though more often than not, you're better off with another squad of raptors instead. Obviously all the same remarks about the risks for raptors applies for Warp Talons, except that the Warp Talons cost twice as much as a Raptor squad and is therefore that much more painful when they don't come down until turn 4, scatter badly and mishap and get delayed twice and are still in reserves when the game ends on turn 6 and they never even hit the board.

For all 3 (and virtually everything else in the codex), Mark of Nurgle is generally considered the way to go, though running them naked to save points, or on the odd occasion Mark of Tzeentch for possessed or Warp Talons who you know are going to get shot with AP1/2/3 guns. Mark of slaanesh is fairly uncommon since T4 is easy to double out and therefore the FNP banner doesn't work as well as it should (bikes, being T5, are a different story and the only way to get a character FNP beyond rolling it off the boon table) and +1 initiative doesn't help them get across the board (which is their main problem). Obviously the same goes for Mark of Khorne since an extra attack on the charge doesn't help you if you never get there, and it's especially useless for raptors and Warp Talons in the Raptor Talon formation since they are forced to make disordered charges.

Thank you for this useful information!
I did indeed mean Seekers (since I have a DP) because they've been mentioned here before and it got me curious.
I've already been told that Warp Talons are just plain bad in regards of them daying way before they reach CC.
Bikers are the way to go regarding Fast Attack, then. If I ever do need more CC, I'll throw a few possessed or Nurgle Spawn down.
Anything you think, besides Obliterators and a Heldrake, my army is still lacking?

Thanks in advance!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
I'd suggest getting Traitor's Hate to look into (Look into a open copy if you got a GW store nearby), if you're interested in the formations. It has some interesting stuff that makes CSM okay.

I won't recommend anything yet since I don't know how you want to run your army, only you do.

Sadly, I do not have any GW shops closer than a 2 hour train trip to and from.

For the way of running my army:
-It's mostly non-competitive
-I like CC and Psychic warfare but I don't mind taking shootey units
-Nurgle and Khorne will be the main focus

Greetings once more!

The list of things I can choose from at the moment consists of (posting the weapons just so you people know what kind of anti-vehicle, anti-horde and such I have):
-Chaos lord (2x; one with a murder/power sword and a plasma, one with a melta-bolter and power sword)
-Chaos Sorcerer (force sword)
-Daemon Prince (murder sword or mace)
-16 Night Lords CSM (Got a choice of claws, bolters, combi-bolters, meltas, plasmas, etc. to change them into raptor squads, since those are waaaay more useful than CSM, even as suicide squads)
-10 Fallen Angel CSM (converted Dark Angels from a pal into Fallen; 2 plasma guns and the aspiring with chainsword and plasma pistol)
-5 Terminators (Also Fallen Angels; autocannon, 2/3 powerfists, 1 chainfist and the champion with a power sword. All but the autocannon one with twin-linked bolters. If I can do some cutting with a hobby knife I may be able to replace some of these with plasma pistols if I want to risk maiming them, since I'm not too good at conversions still)
-Helbrute (multi-melta and power fist with heavy flamer/combi bolter)
-3 Bikers (Again Fallen Angels; one plasma, will make this 2, along with the champ having a chainsword)
-6 chosen (double lightning claw, 2 boltguns, 1 bolt pistol, 1 power axe, a power maul and another power axe along with a plasma-bolter on the aspiring)
-20 Cultists (8 autopistols, one flamer, a CCW on the Cult Champ, 8 autoguns, one heavy stubber and the Cult Champ with his trusty shotty)

So far, a couple of things for you heretically lovely people with great advice:
-Add 3 more bikers and stick the Lord I use on one of them, give them MoN and shove them at the enemy?
-Get 4 spawn to accompany said bikers?
-Heldrake and oblit squad are my go-to choice whenever I can get them
-Should I pick up a Rhino eventually? (I assume yes)
-Khorne Berserkers any good (probably not?)?
-I doubt I have to invest in any other HQ, right?

Any specific type of list you guys would advice? (Not a full list because that should be in a different subforum, but just a general overview if anyone'd like to help me with that <3)
Mainly non-competitive games and if competitive it'd be a €5 entree fee and the grand price is "You won!" or something

Plus: I really really like the new Psychic Powers the Traitor's Hate supplement gives (Sinistrum in specific).

Thanks in advance once more!

Meganobz with killsaws murder any vehicle they touch - even knights. Need to get to cc though.

GreenNinjaCactus wrote:

So far, a couple of things for you heretically lovely people with great advice:
-Add 3 more bikers and stick the Lord I use on one of them, give them MoN and shove them at the enemy?
-Get 4 spawn to accompany said bikers?
-Heldrake and oblit squad are my go-to choice whenever I can get them
-Should I pick up a Rhino eventually? (I assume yes)
-Khorne Berserkers any good (probably not?)?
-I doubt I have to invest in any other HQ, right?

Any specific type of list you guys would advice? (Not a full list because that should be in a different subforum, but just a general overview if anyone'd like to help me with that <3)
Mainly non-competitive games and if competitive it'd be a €5 entree fee and the grand price is "You won!" or something

Plus: I really really like the new Psychic Powers the Traitor's Hate supplement gives (Sinistrum in specific).

Thanks in advance once more!

- Nurgle bikers escorting a lord are rarely a bad choice, Doubly so since they're the best mandatory fast attack option in the black legion Warband.
- Spawn are almost always useful, either in a CAD or as minimum Auxiliary in black legion detachment
- Heldrakes and oblits should be your first choices in a CAD, but keep in mind that they are only available in the black legion Warband as Auxiliary choices and you need minimum 2 Heldrakes or 3 oblits and a warpsmith (in reality you need at least 5 oblits to make the formation worthwhile)
- Adding a rhino is rarely a bad choice, mobility generally wins games
- Khorne berserkers are generally pretty bad
- A biker HQ (generally nurgle looking since any khorne lord will be riding a juggernaut) and sorcerer/s on bike/s would be advisable, though a bit of conversion work and counts as means you can generally get away with these on the cheap from a normal biker box. A Juggerlord wouldn't go astray, but that's either a decent investment or a more advanced (and even more expensive) conversion job.

As for list advice, for friendlies, take what you think is cool.

For competitive games, get a different army.

For semi-competitive games, take things that are fighty and move fast, killy with long range, can hide or hold ground with objective secured, roll your Warlord trait on strategic, your psychic powers on telepathy, don't mark your sorcerers and only take upgrades that the unit absolutely needs, don't bother with stuff that's nice to have or could maybe be useful if [x].

If you don't have many vehicles, then stick to mainly rhinos, otherwise you are just painting a giant target for all your enemies anti tank weapons if you only take a single Predator or similar.

 Drasius wrote:

GreenNinjaCactus wrote:

So far, a couple of things for you heretically lovely people with great advice:
-Add 3 more bikers and stick the Lord I use on one of them, give them MoN and shove them at the enemy?
-Get 4 spawn to accompany said bikers?
-Heldrake and oblit squad are my go-to choice whenever I can get them
-Should I pick up a Rhino eventually? (I assume yes)
-Khorne Berserkers any good (probably not?)?
-I doubt I have to invest in any other HQ, right?

Any specific type of list you guys would advice? (Not a full list because that should be in a different subforum, but just a general overview if anyone'd like to help me with that <3)
Mainly non-competitive games and if competitive it'd be a €5 entree fee and the grand price is "You won!" or something

Plus: I really really like the new Psychic Powers the Traitor's Hate supplement gives (Sinistrum in specific).

Thanks in advance once more!

- Nurgle bikers escorting a lord are rarely a bad choice, Doubly so since they're the best mandatory fast attack option in the black legion Warband.
- Spawn are almost always useful, either in a CAD or as minimum Auxiliary in black legion detachment
- Heldrakes and oblits should be your first choices in a CAD, but keep in mind that they are only available in the black legion Warband as Auxiliary choices and you need minimum 2 Heldrakes or 3 oblits and a warpsmith (in reality you need at least 5 oblits to make the formation worthwhile)
- Adding a rhino is rarely a bad choice, mobility generally wins games
- Khorne berserkers are generally pretty bad
- A biker HQ (generally nurgle looking since any khorne lord will be riding a juggernaut) and sorcerer/s on bike/s would be advisable, though a bit of conversion work and counts as means you can generally get away with these on the cheap from a normal biker box. A Juggerlord wouldn't go astray, but that's either a decent investment or a more advanced (and even more expensive) conversion job.

As for list advice, for friendlies, take what you think is cool.

For competitive games, get a different army.

For semi-competitive games, take things that are fighty and move fast, killy with long range, can hide or hold ground with objective secured, roll your Warlord trait on strategic, your psychic powers on telepathy, don't mark your sorcerers and only take upgrades that the unit absolutely needs, don't bother with stuff that's nice to have or could maybe be useful if [x].

If you don't have many vehicles, then stick to mainly rhinos, otherwise you are just painting a giant target for all your enemies anti tank weapons if you only take a single Predator or similar.

Alright, thank you!
I'll get another squad of bikers and a squad of spawn, but is there no way to field 1 heldrake, though?
And ofcourse a rhino to top it off because I am indeed not going for predators or land raiders because with just a helbrute right now, that'd be a massive target.
I'll convert my Night Lord CSM into Raptors with meltas so I can get some use out of them.

You're being a great help, so thank you!

GreenNinjaCactus wrote:
but is there no way to field 1 heldrake, though?

Only in a CAD (ie. 1-2 HQ, 2-6 troops, 1-3 each of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support) or allied (1 HQ, 1-2 troops, 0-1 each of Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy Support) detachments.

You can field 2 on their own as either a fighter Wing or as a terror pack, each with different bonus rules.

While the Black Legion detachment is nice, restricting the 2 best units (Heldrakes and oblits) to formations is quite annoying (especially when the obliterator formation has such a useless tax). There is still value to be had in running a CAD, even if you aren't running a cult army.

 Drasius wrote:

GreenNinjaCactus wrote:
but is there no way to field 1 heldrake, though?

Only in a CAD (ie. 1-2 HQ, 2-6 troops, 1-3 each of Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support) or allied (1 HQ, 1-2 troops, 0-1 each of Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy Support) detachments.

You can field 2 on their own as either a fighter Wing or as a terror pack, each with different bonus rules.

While the Black Legion detachment is nice, restricting the 2 best units (Heldrakes and oblits) to formations is quite annoying (especially when the obliterator formation has such a useless tax). There is still value to be had in running a CAD, even if you aren't running a cult army.

Thank you for clarifying.
I had read that you have to field atleast 2 but I was not completely certain.
It's kind of bad that you have to use the formation with 2 heldrakes and 3 oblits, since it's indeed a huge tax.
Especially since I already have a lot of HQ choices and a Warpsmith was not on my "Need to get this!" list...

Well...atleast the two boon rolls and the new psychic powers are worth it.

Once I finish painting my current army and I'll look into heldrakes and obliterators.
Spawn are on my list because I can make 4 out of the 2 through bits I already have.
Bikers will soon follow, I suppose, to add that additional pain-train.

So what I'd have would be:
HQ: Nurgle Lord on bike, Lord, Sorcerer with jumppack maybe?, Daemon Prince
Troops: 10 CSM, 20 Cultists
Elites: Termies, Khorne Chosen and a Helbrute
Fast attack: 4 Nurgle spawn teaming with 5 nurgle bikers, 3x5 Chaos Raptors with meltas, 1 Heldrake
Heavy Support: 3 Obliterators

That is indeed a much needed upgrade to what I currently have, adding a lot of punch while also being able to make some sort of nurgle biker 'deathstar' (Ectomancy, Geomortis, Heretech and Sinistrum have some real strong psychic abilities, in my opinion, but especially Sinistrum's Diabolic Strength seems to be sooooo sweet, if I can get it cast on my Nurgle biker lord.)

Though, I do suppose I should stick to Nurgle bikers and not get spawn, because I'm obviously not going to field a heldrake, 2-3 squads of raptors, 1-2 squad(s) of bikers and 1 squad of spawn at the same time.