Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If you have the Hit&Run rule, that works as per normal. For everyone else, though, you can now perform Hit&Run with the following caveat:

Pass or fail, all enemies you were locked in combat with immediately gets to attack as if it were the combat phase.

So for instance, let's say you have a Hive Tyrant locked in combat with some mutant rabble. The Hive Tyrant decides to Hit&Run, but before it rolls its Initiative test, all the rabble immediately attack it, hitting on 5s and wounding on 6s as normal. Then, assuming the Tyrant lives, it gets to roll its Initiative test.

This is to prevent scenarios like the above (which I saw in a game recently) where you have a really weak unit locking up a model that, by all rights, shouldn't care about taking some more hits as it flies away.

Thoughts on this?

I am opposed to this as it makes tarpitting witch is currently my best way of dealing with a riptide and flyrants I ground stop working.

 mew28 wrote:
I am opposed to this as it makes tarpitting witch is currently my best way of dealing with a rip tide stop working.

What army do you play? I'm sure there's a solution that involves murder instead of slowing them down.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
I am opposed to this as it makes tarpitting witch is currently my best way of dealing with a rip tide stop working.

What army do you play? I'm sure there's a solution that involves murder instead of slowing them down.

Space marines.

Grav. Sternguard. Meltas. Trust me, if you play Space Marines well, you have nothing to fear from a Riptide.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Grav. Sternguard. Meltas. Trust me, if you play Space Marines well, you have nothing to fear from a Riptide.

Problem is if you want any of those to kill a rip tide you need to deep strike them right next to it and because it has interception is is likely to kill half the squad before they get to shot at it. Also they all most all cost more than the rip tide so you come out losing points.

The Tau player has to pay for Interceptor, and the trick is target saturation. Drop Pod in a whole bunch of things, then annihilate everything.

And even if the Grav Squad costs more than the Riptide, it'll kill more than just the Riptide

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Tau player has to pay for Interceptor, and the trick is target saturation. Drop Pod in a whole bunch of things, then annihilate everything.

And even if the Grav Squad costs more than the Riptide, it'll kill more than just the Riptide

They don't kill anything when they are dead. He can just save his intercept shots for the stuff that can actually hurt it.

So bring in a Skyhammer, Grav Devs and Eviscerator Marines. EVERYTHING can hurt him-in fact, two squads (who you can deploy far away from each other, but both in range of the Riptide) can kill him in one turn, and still be around to murder lots of other things.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So bring in a Skyhammer, Grav Devs and Eviscerator Marines. EVERYTHING can hurt him-in fact, two squads (who you can deploy far away from each other, but both in range of the Riptide) can kill him in one turn, and still be around to murder lots of other things.

That's a 600 point formation to deal with 1 riptide rather than my current 200 point suicide tactical squad in a rhino. The sky hammer would need to be able to kill all most 3 riptides to make their points back.

You do realize it'll do more than kill a Riptide? The Grav Dev will delete a unit a turn, with 20 AP2 shots, and the Assault Marines will wreak havoc among the CC-Poor Tau. Even if you lose one Grav Dev Squad to Interceptor, you're still gonna come out ahead.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You do realize it'll do more than kill a Riptide? The Grav Dev will delete a unit a turn, with 20 AP2 shots, and the Assault Marines will wreak havoc among the CC-Poor Tau. Even if you lose one Grav Dev Squad to Interceptor, you're still gonna come out ahead.

Again they can't kill anything when they are dead and they need to take at least 2 overcharged ion accelerator shots and get there points back.

So don't put them directly next to each other? A single Riptide squad can only kill one squad. And if there's more Riptides, there's more high-value targets to murder with ease.

Ok i make a invincible 2++ rerollable deathstar (there are plenty)

Now the only i can deal with it has been removed. What do I do?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Ok i make a invincible 2++ rerollable deathstar (there are plenty)

Now the only i can deal with it has been removed. What do I do?

The only ones I can think of are either Tzeentch Daemons (Screamerstar) or a Storm Shield squad with at least two Librarians (one with Sanctuary, one with Veil of Time-technically possible with just one Librarian, but the odds of getting it with anything approaching reliability are virtually nil).

As for that, if there really are so many ways of doing it, make your own 2++ rerollable Deathstar. Or bring Strength D to get past their Invulnerables. Or bring a Vindicare, or Callidus.

Cool so everyone has to bring their own 2++ deathstar or apocolypse unit just so that you can have the game "feel more realistic"

gotcha

 CrownAxe wrote:
Cool so everyone has to bring their own 2++ deathstar or apocolypse unit just so that you can have the game "feel more realistic"

gotcha

Mind listing how to make a 2++ rerollable? Because again, I know of two ways, only one of which is any kind of reliable.

And there are two solutions to that:

1-Limit invulns to a max of 3+. (Another houserule, I know, but it's not like this rule is ever gonna see play in tournaments.)

2-Don't play with jackheels. Play with friends. The reason I made this proposal was because of the exact example I used-it was Renegade Guard versus Tyranids. Neither one of those are a powerhouse army, neither player was bringing anything even close to cheesy, and that little bit of realism would've made a big difference in the game, towards making it more even.

So, in normal, casual gaming, would this be okay? Not tournament level play-just two friends going at it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So don't put them directly next to each other? A single Riptide squad can only kill one squad. And if there's more Riptides, there's more high-value targets to murder with ease.

A single 5 man squad of grav cannon devs cost as much as a riptide and the there is the assault marine tax on top of that. There is no good way to deal with riptides for space marines.

Why would a Firewarrior squad have Hit and Run? Why would a Zoanthrope have Hit and Run? Why would a Dreadnaught have Hit and Run?

It's not so much Hit&Run as it is a retreat. Having the actual Hit&Run rule means you're trained in escaping combats, and can do so without taking any hits. With this, you're going to get beat up as you leave.

So Fire Warriors can try to run away, but chances are, they'll get slaughtered trying to do it.

A Zoanthrope, though, can try to tank all the hits with its Invuln save, and so might have a chance of getting out alive.

A Dreadnought, depending on what it's locked with, might be able to leave combat with impunity-guardsmen without grenades physically cannot hurt it, so it could take all their hits and just walk away, ignoring them.

No. Not interested.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's not so much Hit&Run as it is a retreat. Having the actual Hit&Run rule means you're trained in escaping combats, and can do so without taking any hits. With this, you're going to get beat up as you leave.

So Fire Warriors can try to run away, but chances are, they'll get slaughtered trying to do it.

A Zoanthrope, though, can try to tank all the hits with its Invuln save, and so might have a chance of getting out alive.

A Dreadnought, depending on what it's locked with, might be able to leave combat with impunity-guardsmen without grenades physically cannot hurt it, so it could take all their hits and just walk away, ignoring them.

Is there not have a mechanic for running away though. I think it is called sweeping advance.

Except a Dreadnought can't willing walk away from Guardsmen. Their morale has to be broken first, despite the Dreadnought being impossible to harm.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Except a Dreadnought can't willing walk away from Guardsmen. Their morale has to be broken first, despite the Dreadnought being impossible to harm.

So why would it want to run aways they can not even hurt it? It is going to get a sweeping advance on them for sure.

Because maybe it has higher priority targets? Let's say it whiffs with its attacks, and the Guardsmen don't break, or even the Guardsmen just pass a leadership test. Now it's stuck, and can't melta then assault the big ol' Leman Russ two inches away.

There is absolutely no good reason for the majority of units in the game to have Hit and Run.

Yea close combat is weak enough as it is, I don't need the squads I charge retreating and shooting me again every turn.

It would just make armies like Tau, Eldar, Space Marines even better and armies like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos even worse. Who wants that?

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you have the Hit&Run rule, that works as per normal. For everyone else, though, you can now perform Hit&Run with the following caveat:

Pass or fail, all enemies you were locked in combat with immediately gets to attack as if it were the combat phase.

So for instance, let's say you have a Hive Tyrant locked in combat with some mutant rabble. The Hive Tyrant decides to Hit&Run, but before it rolls its Initiative test, all the rabble immediately attack it, hitting on 5s and wounding on 6s as normal. Then, assuming the Tyrant lives, it gets to roll its Initiative test.

This is to prevent scenarios like the above (which I saw in a game recently) where you have a really weak unit locking up a model that, by all rights, shouldn't care about taking some more hits as it flies away.

Thoughts on this?

I see the desire to have a way to deal with tarpits. Some units (like renegade zombies) are ridiculously good at it and offer very little in the way of counterplay. A good dedicated tarpit unit can basically go, "Hey, you don't get to do anything with this unit we assaulted for most of the game." Which can be frustrating and not terribly engaging or interesting in terms of choices offered to the tarpitted player.

On the other hand, tarpits are the only viable counter to some units and often times the only viable use for the units themselves. A tyranid player facing an imperial knight doesn't have a lot of options for dealing with that knight unless he brought a heavily tailored list (and even then, it's probably an uphill struggle). What he can do is send in a wave of lowly termagaunts who, despite being pretty bad at killing most things, are both cheap and fearless.

So on one hand, an imperial knight should probably be capable of stepping out of a mob of termagaunts, and being stuck fighting termagaunts all game is pretty dull and disappointing. On the other hand, tyranids struggle to actually kill that knight, and termagaunts don't serve much of a purpose beyond being cheap objective secured tarpits. And then there's the point others have raised that this strongly favors shooty armies (who typically already have the edge) by letting them opt to escape any combat they've already survived. Even if the "parting shots" kill the shooty unit, that's often still better for the shooty player than surviving as it means you can blow the assaulters away next turn with the rest of your army.

If the goal here is to deal with the lack of counterplay involved in a good tarpit, this solves it, but it creates way too many new issues to be worth it. I'd love to hear alternative suggestions for making tarpit units more interesting to play against though.

Good explanation, Wyldhunt. I agree with lack of counterplay being an issue. Even as a Tyranid player, tarpits are incredibly dull. I've vaguely toyed with a similar idea in the past, though I was thinking that fleeing combat could trigger a Sweeping Advance (perhaps followed by the original suggestion of taking hits, should the Sweep fail or be impossible for any reason).

What if units may only attempt to flee in their own turn, giving the attacking unit a chance to react before their enemy gets a Shooting Phase? It doesn't fix problems like Knights or Riptides, but it's a start.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Good explanation, Wyldhunt. I agree with lack of counterplay being an issue. Even as a Tyranid player, tarpits are incredibly dull. I've vaguely toyed with a similar idea in the past, though I was thinking that fleeing combat could trigger a Sweeping Advance (perhaps followed by the original suggestion of taking hits, should the Sweep fail or be impossible for any reason).

What if units may only attempt to flee in their own turn, giving the attacking unit a chance to react before their enemy gets a Shooting Phase? It doesn't fix problems like Knights or Riptides, but it's a start.

That's not a bad idea. If instead of treating it like hit & run (which also potentially makes a unit running away even more mobile than normal) you treat it like Our Weapons are Useless, then you make it far more risky to disengage a shooty unit. By only allowing a player to fall back on his own turn, you give the enemy a chance to keep coming at you. I predict that the result of this would be that if you wanted to untarpit, for instance, a wraith knight, you would need to send another unit into the melee to keep the tarpit from sweeping and from pursuing the wraith knight and simply charging him again. So you end up with the option to untarpit one unit by sending another unit into the tarpit.

That seems like potentially interesting counterplay to me. Tired of the enemy's zombies tarpitting your hive tyrant? Send in the squad of gaunts you brought for just such an occassion. Need to get your imnperial knight out of there? Send in your conscript blob or a sacrificial veteran unit. Heck, even dark eldar wyches might be slightly more useful if they could countercharge the tarpit your opponent sent into your corpse thief claw. Wyches might actually tarpit another tarpit well enough to survive for a turn, thus allowing your heavy hitter to get out of there.