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They have already FAQed that.

It doesn't prevent them.

That faq is for a specific formation for different units with different rules.

Here's the exact wording of the rule, page 96;

"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally."

The key part is the last part of the sentence. Instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally. As arriving from Reserves is mentioned earlier in the sentence and Infiltrate is a form of deployment, I would argue that Cult Ambush supersedes Infiltrate and arriving from Reserves as the rule itself explicitly states you do it *instead* of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally. Instead of deploying by Infiltrate normally or arriving from Reserves normally, you roll on the Cult Ambush chart instead.

The last part of that sentences' wording really needs to be stressed more. The sentence as a whole basically reads as "if you are qualified to do 'x' (Infiltrate) or 'y' (arrive from Reserves), you can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush chart instead of following the normal rules." I think the Infiltrate part - and the Reserves part - are merely qualifications required to use Cult Ambush, and that Cult Ambush rules replace the normal ones; hence why, unlike Infiltrators, Cult Ambushers can potentially charge on the first game turn, shoot twice in the same turn, be set up within 10" or 7", etc.

I don't mind being wrong as it helps me out a lot, but I would say there's a strong case to be made that Servo Skulls and what not don't affect Cult Ambush. It's probably in need of an FAQ though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think about it I'm also not sure if the wording of the first sentence still forces you to Infiltrate. Eh. The second sentence does say you roll on the Cult Ambush chart instead of deploying normally or arriving from Reserves normally so I would assume that means you don't use the normal rules for Infiltrate or arriving from Reserves, meaning you then are not affected by things like Servo Skulls, but I digress. I'd expect any possible FAQ to rule in favor of the Cult, especially from a thematic stand point, but who knows.

If the Cult end up being blocked by Servo Skulls, Inquisitors will become virtual auto-takes in the competitive meta I would assume, even if only just to make sure you don't get screwed over by first turn charges. Mind, for Cult players it's not that major of an issue - they can just deploy normally, use the Into the Shadows rule and pop up on turn two (or just use their +1 to Reserves in the Cult Insurrection detachment to just roll for Reserves normally) - it's more an annoyance as you're losing that first turn pressure which can decide games.

RAW skulls don't currently work. As you aptly pointed out, infiltrate and reserves are merely prerequisites in order to roll on the cult ambush table which is its own thing entirely.

I disagree. It does not say units with the infiltrate special rule. It says units that infiltrate. They have to actually infiltrate to use ambush.

Acolyte hybrids by default do not have infiltrate. Acolyte hybrids that gain it through formations and super detachments still need to actually infiltrate in order to have the option to roll on the table. If they do not choose to infiltrate they do not get the option to roll on the table.

 Lance845 wrote:
I disagree. It does not say units with the infiltrate special rule. It says units that infiltrate. They have to actually infiltrate to use ambush.

Acolyte hybrids by default do not have infiltrate. Acolyte hybrids that gain it through formations and super detachments still need to actually infiltrate in order to have the option to roll on the table. If they do not choose to infiltrate they do not get the option to roll on the table.

Here are the reasons I disagree:

1) It says "INSTEAD OF deploying or rolling for reserves." Infiltrate is a special form of deployment, and Cult Ambush is a separate rule with a separate means of deployment.

2) GW has ruled in the FAQ that all similar rules (the DWO patriarch's rule and the callidus assassin's rule) bypass servo skulls, indicating that servo skulls seem to only function specifically when using the "infiltrate" rule and not any other similar rule

3) 50% of the results on the table are very clearly not similar to infiltrate, they are arriving normally from reserve, and arriving in a matter identical to outflank. Even the results that work somewhat similarly to infiltrate only do so in that you put the units down somewhere they couldn't ordinarily go, with some kind of restrictions based on proximity to enemy models. It doesn't use the same values as infiltrate (12" and 18"), it can be used outside the deployment phase, and one result doesn't even care if the enemy can draw LOS to you or not.

 Lance845 wrote:

3) 50% of the results on the table are very clearly not similar to infiltrate, they are arriving normally from reserve, and arriving in a matter identical to outflank. Even the results that work somewhat similarly to infiltrate only do so in that you put the units down somewhere they couldn't ordinarily go, with some kind of restrictions based on proximity to enemy models. It doesn't use the same values as infiltrate (12" and 18"), it can be used outside the deployment phase, and one result doesn't even care if the enemy can draw LOS to you or not.

can be viewed different, because some results only change the 12" and 18" value of infiltrate.

PS. right now I'm neither for or against, because it can be explained both ways

I came in here hoping for some interesting tactical debates... does this conversation not belong in 'You make da call'? Not trying to be contentious or a limiter of speech, but it is a bit tedious for players who don't have an interest in nitpicking the wording of rules, I'm sure I speak for more than just myself...

whirlwindstruggle wrote:
I came in here hoping for some interesting tactical debates... does this conversation not belong in 'You make da call'? Not trying to be contentious or a limiter of speech, but it is a bit tedious for players who don't have an interest in nitpicking the wording of rules, I'm sure I speak for more than just myself...

I think the question of whether a 34-point detachment that can be added by any army to instantly invalidate an entire codex is fairly relevant to tactical discussion.

Regardless, I think we've reached the point where people who want to interpret the rule are going to think the way they want to. You have a rule that says "Applies to infiltrate and scout" and another rule that is not called either infiltrate or scout with a clear precedent of multiple similar rules being officially decided the opposite way.

So I have a more on-topic tactical question:

My build is going to feature a fairly minimal Subterranean uprising focusing on 1 unit of claw-morphs and one unit of aberrants. The clawmorphs I'm going to join with the Primus to make them more reliable, but I'm torn with the Aberrants between bringing in a CAD for a second primus, or adding an Iconward through the free Command slot.

Pros of Primus CAD: Offensively more powerful and more durable. I'm convinced this guy is going to hit above his weight class thanks to the auto-succeeding LOS checks, enabling him to just go ham in whatever challenge he wants to. Also, makes the unit significantly more reliable with the 3d6.

Cons: Cost. The minimum cost of the second primus is 155 with 2 acolyte squads, and I'd be more apt to bring neophytes which are even more expensive because I'm not convinced that unbuffed Cult Ambushing acolytes will actually be as good as people think. you're much more likely to get some use out of a shooting focused unit than a melee one. The Iconward gives those aberrants a 4+++ (plus anyone else who happens to be nearby) and provides a bit of punch and leadership.

What would you bring? How are you planning on structuring your Uprising formation?

Claw Metamorphs in a Brood Cycle interest me: Easy access to furious charge plus potentially a Psyker power that raises strength means they could be hitting S8 rending at initiative. Rage too.

I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc. I'm going to mull over some solutions. Some kind of tray with sections for each unit might do the trick.

 gorgon wrote:
I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc. I'm going to mull over some solutions. Some kind of tray with sections for each unit might do the trick.

you could also at a marking on the trim of the base, like a number or even paint the trim in different colors for different unit

 gorgon wrote:
I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc. I'm going to mull over some solutions. Some kind of tray with sections for each unit might do the trick.

I know I'll be running different schemes for all my formations. I have traitor vostroyans for my Cavalcade, Forgeworld Renegades will likely be my Brood Cycle, and GW Neophytes for my Doting Throng.

 gorgon wrote:
I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc.

You got it. My first GC game, 2000 points. All infantry, 3 different detachments with different buffs, Acolyte Iconward with buffs at a different range depending on which detachment units were part of, 115 models, Boy what a logistical nightmare for a slow player, after ~5 hours we called the game at the top of turn 4.

I hope to speed it up, or I'm not playing this faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, Independant Characters raised by Numbers Beyond Counting?

Discuss.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc.

You got it. My first GC game, 2000 points. All infantry, 3 different detachments with different buffs, Acolyte Iconward with buffs at a different range depending on which detachment units were part of, 115 models, Boy what a logistical nightmare for a slow player, after ~5 hours we called the game at the top of turn 4.

I hope to speed it up, or I'm not playing this faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, Independant Characters raised by Numbers Beyond Counting?

Discuss.

I'm pretty sure that's a no. ICs are units in and of themselves, if they're killed out of a squad, they're no longer "part of the unit" so they don't count towards the D6 models you can bring back.

terry wrote:
you could also at a marking on the trim of the base, like a number or even paint the trim in different colors for different unit

I usually mark the backs of bases for when they're on the tabletop and need to determine if they're in this unit or that unit. But this codex takes things to a new level with the need to keep close track of specific casualties. I need something more at-a-glance for when they're off the table, and I don't want to use every color of the rainbow since my scheme uses a very limited palette.

Some stripes or unit markings on the shoulders might help, but really I think I need some kind of miniature organizer I can put under the table or in a sideboard to make things as fast and easy as possible.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc.

You got it. My first GC game, 2000 points. All infantry, 3 different detachments with different buffs, Acolyte Iconward with buffs at a different range depending on which detachment units were part of, 115 models, Boy what a logistical nightmare for a slow player, after ~5 hours we called the game at the top of turn 4.

I hope to speed it up, or I'm not playing this faction.

I *think* the buff tracking and overall speed will get better with mental improvements -- practice, familiarity, and as my list evolves and units become a little more specialized, targeted for a certain role, and/or operate together more in certain combinations.

For all the unit cycling and casualty accounting, I think I want some kind of physical aid like I mentioned. I'll have to make some kind of mockup and test it.

Edit: The Iconward with the different ranges is a bit of a PITA. One approach might be to make all the measurements from the Iconward at the beginning of the turn or phase and then place counters next to each unit showing their respective buffs.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll say one thing, having played a test game this weekend -- there are some organizational challenges with this army if you're running a lot of MSU and formations. It's not just keeping track of buffs, it's all the unit cycling and replenishing, etc.

You got it. My first GC game, 2000 points. All infantry, 3 different detachments with different buffs, Acolyte Iconward with buffs at a different range depending on which detachment units were part of, 115 models, Boy what a logistical nightmare for a slow player, after ~5 hours we called the game at the top of turn 4.

I hope to speed it up, or I'm not playing this faction.

One thing that will probably help would be to "model/convert" the units to distinguish which formation they're a part of. So Neophytes in a Calvacade are converted Cadians while Neophytes in a Brood Cycle use the cultist torso. The Acolytes from the Subterranean Uprising get picks and mining helms and other "character" items, while the ones from a Demolition Claw wear explosive vests or something along those lines. Etc.

Besides this, keep your squad configurations mostly similar between each other within a formation. Don't do something like running a Subterranean Uprising where one unit has Rocksaws, one has Drills and one has Cutters. Other than the lack of innate redundancy (The Rocksaw is the one most dangerous to a Knight. Guess which one gets targeted first), you don't have to fiddle through the rules and go "oh, was this the squad that had the Rocksaws?" Bookhammer kills the pacing of the game.

 gorgon wrote:

Some stripes or unit markings on the shoulders might help, but really I think I need some kind of miniature organizer I can put under the table or in a sideboard to make things as fast and easy as possible.

For my endless swarm I used some old plates we weren't using anymore (Ikea Kalas, link below). Idea was to paint the back of the base the corresponding color and put casualties in the right ones. Never got the colors painted so it didn't work as great as I'd planned, but still helped not only during game but also sped up deployment a bit.

http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/0145362_PE304807_S5.JPG

Ideally for GSC I want something that was actual terrain for display purposes but themed to the units (I intend to convert mine from various IG and Chaos cultists as well as the GSC ones)

Do units brought back to life with numbers beyond counting get their one time use items again? I am thinking suicide bombers with demo charges could be fun.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
One thing that will probably help would be to "model/convert" the units to distinguish which formation they're a part of. So Neophytes in a Calvacade are converted Cadians while Neophytes in a Brood Cycle use the cultist torso. The Acolytes from the Subterranean Uprising get picks and mining helms and other "character" items, while the ones from a Demolition Claw wear explosive vests or something along those lines. Etc.

Well, the vast majority of my army will use my existing models, so I'm not going to tear them apart or model a bunch of new ones just for bookkeeping purposes. Fine idea for a new Cultist, however.

Besides this, keep your squad configurations mostly similar between each other within a formation. Don't do something like running a Subterranean Uprising where one unit has Rocksaws, one has Drills and one has Cutters. Other than the lack of innate redundancy (The Rocksaw is the one most dangerous to a Knight. Guess which one gets targeted first), you don't have to fiddle through the rules and go "oh, was this the squad that had the Rocksaws?" Bookhammer kills the pacing of the game.

That was kind of what I was alluding to in my previous comments about army evolution. I don't nearly have things locked down, but right now I'm looking at smaller Acolyte units equipped one way for my Brood Cycle, and somewhat larger Acolyte units equipped differently in my Subterranean Uprising. That's not so much for bookkeeping purposes as much as they seem to make more sense that way.

And again, it's not just about keeping units or their buffs straight. It's about knowing that *this* unit is coming in from ongoing reserves, and *these* models will be replenished from that unit when it enters, while *those* models from that same unit remain casualties...and sorting that out very quickly.

@winterman -- Thanks. That might be a cheap and easy way to do it. Figure a series of small bowls mounted to a tray, one designated for each unit. A1, A2, A3, N1, N2, etc. Pad the bottom a little since my models are mostly metal. Or I could use magnets and sheet metal to keep the models from tipping when in the bowl, if I'm in an enterprising mood.

I like the Demo Claw a whole lot. Since Rock Grinders are slow, I feel like the best use for it is a mid/backfield control. Mount the acolytes up, and go to town on whatever makes it past your infiltrating wall of death. You'll create a nice exclusion zone for knights until your tank hunting deff rollas get taken care of.

Demolition charges will make short work of anything they can actually get within range of. Normally, I'd write them off as essentially useless, but when attached to a vehicle designed to run into things, there's a pretty good shot you'll get to use them a time or two. Run up the board, and dump big blasts on anything that survives or avoids your initial ambush.

As for the primary weapon, you basically have to go with the seismic cannon, right? The mining laser, as a one-shot BS3 weapon, is pretty mediocre, even with Tank Hunter. Torrent is sweet, but 80 pts for a heavy flamer in an army bristling with crowd control doesn't do too much for me. I can see it being nice since you're going to be tank shocking things into flamer formation all over the place, though. Still, you'd probably be better off dumping a bunch of hand flamers into units than one heavy flamer, and most of the competitive lists these days don't bother with huge units that are ripe flamer bait.

The acolytes themselves should probably be bare-bones. I'd run them with 1 demo charge and nothing else. If you stash them in the Grinders, they'll already be a big enough target, so dropping more points on them probably is unwise.

 dan2026 wrote:
They have already FAQed that.

It doesn't prevent them.

Got a link to that?

MilkmanAl wrote:
I like the Demo Claw a whole lot. Since Rock Grinders are slow, I feel like the best use for it is a mid/backfield control. Mount the acolytes up, and go to town on whatever makes it past your infiltrating wall of death. You'll create a nice exclusion zone for knights until your tank hunting deff rollas get taken care of.

Demolition charges will make short work of anything they can actually get within range of. Normally, I'd write them off as essentially useless, but when attached to a vehicle designed to run into things, there's a pretty good shot you'll get to use them a time or two. Run up the board, and dump big blasts on anything that survives or avoids your initial ambush.

As for the primary weapon, you basically have to go with the seismic cannon, right? The mining laser, as a one-shot BS3 weapon, is pretty mediocre, even with Tank Hunter. Torrent is sweet, but 80 pts for a heavy flamer in an army bristling with crowd control doesn't do too much for me. I can see it being nice since you're going to be tank shocking things into flamer formation all over the place, though. Still, you'd probably be better off dumping a bunch of hand flamers into units than one heavy flamer, and most of the competitive lists these days don't bother with huge units that are ripe flamer bait.

The acolytes themselves should probably be bare-bones. I'd run them with 1 demo charge and nothing else. If you stash them in the Grinders, they'll already be a big enough target, so dropping more points on them probably is unwise.

I agree entirely, Demo claw is just amazing. Don't forget that you can still take dedicated transports, so you can get some Tank hunting twin-linked autocannons on some trucks too! Seismic Cannon is definitely the way to go for the reasons you mentioned... BS3 lascannon is meh, and that's a ton of points for a heavy flamer.

So I think I've got my list, barring tweaking with some upgrades:

First curse w/ML2 on patriarch

Brood cycle with:

Iconward
3 min acolyte squads
2 min neophyte squads
20 genestealers
5 metamorphs w/claws

Subterranean with:

Primus
10 metamorphs w/claws, banner
20 acolytes w/banner, heavy rock saw
20 acolytes w/banner

CAD:

Primus
Patriarch (ML2)

2 min acolyte squads

Puts me at 1845. It's a lot of hatred and fearless bubbles, plus the enormous furious charge bubble. Of course all the genestealers get furious charge always. Only thing I don't like about it is that the stealers don't have a reliable way to make it into combat. 1/3 games the warlord patriarch will get to choose the result, and 1/3 games one of the squads will roll it turn 1. My hope is that with so many MSU squads, I can roll enough sixes turn 1 to tie up the important things (with those primuses, chances are pretty decent that I will) so that whatever doesn't make it into combat doesn't get hit too hard. With mass shrouded turn 1, it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

Plus we can pull tyranid shenanigans with the patriarch's bubble. Go to ground with a unit outside of the bubble, move patriarch closer during movement phase, then say "What do you mean I went to ground? I don't remember doing that"

Don't forget that you can still take dedicated transports, so you can get some Tank hunting twin-linked autocannons on some trucks too!

With that in mind, you can actually get a fair amount of hull spam going in a GSC list. Off the top of my head, 2 Demo Claws each with 3 min Acolyte units, 3 Rock Grinders with seismic cannons, and 3 Goliaths is 1170pts. That leaves plenty of room for a Brood Cycle and Subterranean Uprising to get in your opponent's face immediately and provide some threat saturation. GSC vehicles obviously aren't the hardiest of contraptions, but it's never a simple task to wipe 12 vehicles away, especially when there are 2-3 units prepared to assault you on the first turn and a bunch more immediately behind them.

So... if you got first turn, took a bunch of Subterranean Uprisings so you could manage where you ambushed... you could really clog up your opponent's deployment zone.

Edit: nvm, you have to infiltrate to roll on the table, so you can't. Derp.

Invul wrote:
So... if you got first turn, took a bunch of Subterranean Uprisings so you could manage where you ambushed... you could really clog up your opponent's deployment zone.

Edit: nvm, you have to infiltrate to roll on the table, so you can't. Derp.

You totally can do this. Subterranean Uprising's one of the Formation bonus is Infiltrate.

What should list building priorities be if building a CAD? Particularly around 1000 pts.

I mean in practice, probably more thinking CAD + First Curse, but basically just trying to work that out.

changemod wrote:
What should list building priorities be if building a CAD? Particularly around 1000 pts.

I mean in practice, probably more thinking CAD + First Curse, but basically just trying to work that out.

I was just thinking as I scrolled through this page that CAD +first curse could be quite a fun list approach

changemod wrote:
What should list building priorities be if building a CAD? Particularly around 1000 pts.

I mean in practice, probably more thinking CAD + First Curse, but basically just trying to work that out.

I'd say Acolytes/Metamorphs in Goliath trucks, Neophytes in Chimeras, go for a mechanized list approach. Only go on foot if you're joining an IC to grant infiltrate to the squad and deploy via cult ambush.

Is anyone considering doing a shooty GSC list? I know the potential for T1 combat is sexy and tough to ignore, but I feel like army-wide infiltrating heavy weapons is something that hasn't gotten much air time. Consider the following extremely rough draft list:

Brood Cycle
Iconward - 65
3x5 Acolytes - 1 saw per unit - 195
2x10 Neophytes - 2 mining lasers - 160
9 Metamorphs - claws - 99
10 Stealers - 140

Doting Throng
5x10 Neophytes - 2 mining lasers - 400

Doting Throng
5x10 Neophytes - 2 mining lasers - 400

Demolition Claw
2x5 Acolytes - demo charge - 120
2 Rock Grinders - seismic cannons - 170
2 Goliaths - 100

1849 total

While one BS3 S9 AP2 shot may not be impressive, as above, 24 of them certainly is. The mining lasers' short range is mitigated (or negated) by everything infiltrating, so you should always be able to get at least close to where you need to be. The Demo Claw provides some anti-vehicle punch and hopefully prevents things from being too antsy to close with your lines. Similarly, the non-Neophyte Brood Cycle units provide a counter-charge threat and can get into the mix immediately with a couple lucky 6s on the ambush table.

I considered going with a Neophyte Cavalcade as the core formation, but I think the Cycle fits better. Specifically, the counter charge potential is very important to keep your list from crumpling as soon as someone assaults you. The nearly army-wide 6+ FNP from the Iconward is also a nice bonus when you're dumping 150 models on the board. The alternative, in my mind, is using a few ambushing Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers to cause early disruption and park a Leman Russ somewhere it can plink shots at whatever ails you. I certainly like the idea of parking a bunch of armor in your opponent's face turn 1, even if it is a bunch of 10/10/10 Sentinels, but I think the Cycle provides greater benefits and creates more problems with target priority than the Cavalcade would.