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It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).

So am thinking of these two lists at 1650 (a pts level we play more often in my area):

List 1

Brood cycle
3x5 acolytes
2x10 neophytes, 1 mining laser each
5 purestrains
5 metamorphs w/ whips
iconward

Subterranean Uprising
3x10 metamorphs w/ claws and icons each
2x5 acolytes
1 primus, familiar

First Cursed
Patriarch
20 purestrains

Lord of the Cult
lvl2 Magos w/ crouchling


CAD
2x lvl2 Magos
2x5 acolytes



List 2

Brood cycle
3x5 acolytes
2x10 neophytes, 2 mining lasers each
5 purestrains
5 metamorphs w/ whips
iconward

Subterranean Uprising
3x10 metamorphs w/ claws and icons each
2x10 acolytes w 2/ saws and icons each
1 Primus, familiar

Lord of the Cult
Patriarch

Lord of the Cult
lvl2 Magos w/ crouchling


CAD
2x Primus, familiar
2x10 neophytes



Which do people feel is better? The first has 8 WC and a First Cursed, but fewer heavy weapons on the neophytes and a less effective uprising. The second stocks up on Primuses to maximise the effectiveness of the uprising, and is able to fit in a few more heavy weapons.

I would say the second one.

Just played a 1k game against an inquisition/deathwatch army, yeah I know, quite a fluffy game.

My list was a brood cycle with a subterranean uprising, a patriarch and a magos. The only upgrades were saws on the uprising acolytes; grenades launchers and autocannons on the neophytes, 2 familiars and ML2 on the Patriarch and ML and the crouchling on the Magos.

His list was a very well equipped marine squad with an inquisitor and those frag cannons in a pod, a dreadknight, and 3 acolyte squads with meltas and jakero in chimeras.

Mission was deadlock, he had first turn so I only deployed 3 acolytes, of which one was killed by the Marines.

The rest of the game was my list picking apart his acolytes as the Marines were to far away of anything at the other corner of the map.

 N.I.B. wrote:
It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).

This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:
It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).

This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.

Mauls and Picks, both legitimately and surprisingly useful. Don't forget, you don't HAVE to deploy those 3 inches away. You can if you want but you can also deploy your backline Neophytes back line.

You also don't have to reach the rear of the vehicle. You always hit rear armor unless a mobile walker.

Played my third game tonight with GSC vs a war convocation. Was curious to see how they would do against a good list (although tbh I don't know war con well enough to be able to tell if it's a super competitive war con list).

Short story shorter - I finally got the 6 warlord trait. I went first, but since everyone was cult ambushing, he still had to deploy before me. So I infiltrate all my units before the warlord patriarch with first curse to give myself the most options. A subterranean 10 man metamorph unit with claws and banner gets 2 sixes! A subterranean 20 man acolyte squad with primus and banner and heavy rock saw gets 3 sixes! Of course I roll no other sixes haha but still those three units were devastating. Got a 3 squad multi-assault with the warlord's unit, killed a knight with the acolytes and killed a 5 man squadron of dragoons with the metamorphs. I used the brood mind power to have his destroyers shoot his other squad of destroyers (this was actually what netted me first blood).

Edit: In retrospect, I mis-read the broodmind mind control power, so I got 18 shots instead of the 6 shots I should have taken. It wouldn't have changed much of anything, but it's good to read the power properly. Sucks to gain an advantage that you shouldn't have, even if it doesn't change the result of the game.

He conceded after the top of 1 with his army in shambles. I almost certainly would have tabled him on turn 2, as I had about 5 squads coming in again from ambush, having decided that I didn't need them turn 1 and returned them to the shadows (1 of which was my 2nd subterranean squad of 20 acolytes + primus + chain fist + banner). I felt bad as he literally never even took his turn because all of the ambush rolls went so well for me. The psychic powers were very good also. Would have been difficult to pick much better pre-game rolls. I can see why some people can feel like GSC is OP when the rolls are good. They don't remember the games when the rolls are bad though haha. Also, people generally seem to have very little ignores cover in my meta at least (don't know how much this applies to other metas but you need ignores cover to ruin GSC's day)

I don't get the reason for targeting units with mind control psychic power... it specifically targets a model inside the unit

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I don't get the reason for targeting units with mind control psychic power... it specifically targets a model inside the unit

People see what they want to see.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I don't get the reason for targeting units with mind control psychic power... it specifically targets a model inside the unit

Target that nice Devastator squad or combat squad with a meltagun or plasma gun that is taking cover behind a vehicle or dread.

Then pop their cover with their own weapons.

I think it's very much a case of hoping for targets of opportunity. Squad with plasma cannons and handy nearby Terminator squad? Ok then.

Target Wraithguard. D-scythe some Eldar near them.

All about singling out opportunities.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I don't get the reason for targeting units with mind control psychic power... it specifically targets a model inside the unit

Target that nice Devastator squad or combat squad with a meltagun or plasma gun that is taking cover behind a vehicle or dread.

Then pop their cover with their own weapons.

I think it's very much a case of hoping for targets of opportunity. Squad with plasma cannons and handy nearby Terminator squad? Ok then.

Target Wraithguard. D-scythe some Eldar near them.

All about singling out opportunities.

Thats a nice stormsurge you got there. It would be a shame if someone made you shoot all your friendlies and use your one use D missle things.

Looks like I mis-read that power. Not sure if that's really worth casting at warp charge 2, let alone 3 most of the time. Tau are pretty sad though, whether it's a riptide or a stormsurge. Some Eldar ranged D on that wraithknight would be nice also. Other than that, it's probably pretty situational, as most models are probably not so powerful as to make good use of it. Maybe grav cents and such.

It seems like just about everyone is hopping on the MSU bandwagon, but is anyone giving larger units a try? I really like the sound of a hugeAcolyte unit with a Primus and saws (and banner!) multicharging the pants off everything. Theoretically, you could do that x3 and have a First Curse with warlord Patriarch all vying for relatively reliable T1 charges in 1850. Each unit has a ~50% chance of getting that Cult Ambush 6 everyone loves, so you're quite likely to have at least one unit up and running.

Brood Cycle
Iconward - 65
2x10 Neophytes - 2 mining lasers, 2 grenade launchers - 180
3x5 Acolytes - 120
5 Genestealers - 70
5 Metamorphs - whips/claws - 55

SubUp
3x15 Acolytes - banner, 2 saws - 540
5 Metamorphs - whips/claws - 55
Primus - 75

First Curse
Patriarch - lvl 2, 2 familiars - 125
20 Stealers - 280

Magus - lvl2, crouchling - 85

CAD
2 Primus - 150
2x5 Acolytes - 80

That's 1880, so maybe take out 4 total Acolytes from the big units? You certainly don't sacrifice much in the way of having tons of units to teleport around the board, and those Primus-led Acolytes and First Curse units pack a massive punch. It's worth a shot!

MilkmanAl wrote:
It seems like just about everyone is hopping on the MSU bandwagon, but is anyone giving larger units a try? I really like the sound of a huge Acolyte unit with a Primus and saws (and banner!) multicharging the pants off everything. Theoretically, you could do that x3 and have a First Curse with warlord Patriarch all vying for relatively reliable T1 charges in 1850. Each unit has a ~50% chance of getting that Cult Ambush 6 everyone loves, so you're quite likely to have at least one unit up and running.

That's pretty similar to my list. I drop the third acolyte squad in the subterranean formation to give me a second maxed out genestealer squad led by a patriarch (from the brood cycle). I use a CAD HQ slot for that. So I also sacrifice a third primus in my subterranean formation but the third squad still gets 2 rolls. It also allows me to max out the other 2 squads with a banner, a chain saw and 20 guys. Sadly, I don't have points for the magus though.

It's probably better to not have the second squad of genestealers, although the 5++ is really nice, and stealth is great too. The down side is they have no Cult Ambush mitigation, so if I roll poorly they're just a giant area denial blob. Could be worse I suppose.

Also, if you count the turn 1 and turn 2 rolls, it's substantially better than 50% chance for a primus-led blob squads.

Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together? A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters? A: No.

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.
[i]

I still thinking that if you put characters from out the formation, you will lose roll 2/3 dice.

Formation said that you roll 3 dices if a primus join some unit. But with the faq, the only primus permitted is the primus that is par of the formation, the other primus arent.

zamerion wrote:
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together? A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters? A: No.

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.
[i]

I still thinking that if you put characters from out the formation, you will lose roll 2/3 dice.

Formation said that you roll 3 dices if a primus join some unit. But with the faq, the only primus permitted is the primus that is par of the formation, the other primus arent.

I agree with regards to Magos and/or Patriarchs joining - but the wording does explicitly state "a Primus". I feel like this is enough for an exception, or at least to argue for it based on it being intended even if not strictly following RAW - otherwise why use the word "a" rather than "the Primus from this formation"?

I guess the inconsistency is that if an outside Primus joins and gets the 3d6, why can you not add another character to the unit and still get the 2/3d6...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So the rule wording is: Meticulous Planner: If a unit in this Formation has been joined by a Primus, you can roll three dice instead of one when rolling on the Cult Ambush table for this unit, and select any one of the three results.

I think I feel like this because of the second use of "this unit" - which I took to mean the unit and the Primus, as stated in the first sentence. I am aware that this is very much getting into YMDC territory though so won't be saying more on this in here!

But a primus that isnt from the formation, reamains a Independent character out of the formation.

And the faq is very clear saying that Independent characters out of formations doesnt benefits from the rules of the formation.

Without the faq primus out of formation rolls 3 dices, but with the faq..

Even with the FAQ, I still think it works. The new FAQ is clear that the independent character doesn't benefit from the formation benefits (so he would not gain infiltrate, for example. Luckily he mega detachment provides that anyway so it doesn't cause a deployment issue).

However, it's the squad that is benefitting from the inclusion of the character. He isn't getting any special rule for being in the squad. It's a subtle distinction, but as far as I can tell, the former is not forbidden and the latter is not what is happening here. So I think it still works, as long as you're taking a cult insurrection detachment. Otherwise he doesn't have infiltrate and can't deploy with the squad because they have infiltrate.

 luke1705 wrote:
Even with the FAQ, I still think it works. The new FAQ is clear that the independent character doesn't benefit from the formation benefits (so he would not gain infiltrate, for example. Luckily he mega detachment provides that anyway so it doesn't cause a deployment issue).

However, it's the squad that is benefitting from the inclusion of the character. He isn't getting any special rule for being in the squad. It's a subtle distinction, but as far as I can tell, the former is not forbidden and the latter is not what is happening here. So I think it still works, as long as you're taking a cult insurrection detachment. Otherwise he doesn't have infiltrate and can't deploy with the squad because they have infiltrate.

I understand your point of view. But, rolls 3 dices isnt a benefit from the primus?

Units win a benefit thanks to the primus yes. But the primus wins a benefit too, thanks to be part of the formation. Two thing are necessary: a primus (anyone) and be part of the formation.

The faq said that independent characters dont win benefits for join formations. And rolls more dices is a benefit.

As you said, you can join any character in a unit, and win the 2/3 rolls from the formation, because the benefit is from the squad.

Im really interesting in clarify this, if im wrong, 3 units from subteranean upsring with 3 broodcoven...

 luke1705 wrote:
So I think it still works, as long as you're taking a cult insurrection detachment. Otherwise he doesn't have infiltrate and can't deploy with the squad because they have infiltrate.

The Primus (and Magos and Patriarch) all do have infiltrate base.

Benlisted wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
So I think it still works, as long as you're taking a cult insurrection detachment. Otherwise he doesn't have infiltrate and can't deploy with the squad because they have infiltrate.

The Primus (and Magos and Patriarch) all do have infiltrate base.

I stand corrected on that

I dont think it works with outside primuses because the formation grants the unit inside of it the 3d6 ambush if joined by a Primus. The unit has permission to roll 3d6 for ambush because it is joined by A primus. However the primus in question does not receive permissions to roll 3d6 ambush because he is not part of the formation. GW has been specific in saying formation rules do not carry over to outside IC. So in this event I would say the Primus does grant the unit in the formation the ability to roll 3d6, but he himself does NOT have permission to do that thus they would be forced to roll 1 dice.

I am not even sold on a RAI argument because the decurion itself limits you to 1 primus for fluff reasons.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I dont think it works with outside primuses because the formation grants the unit inside of it the 3d6 ambush if joined by a Primus. The unit has permission to roll 3d6 for ambush because it is joined by A primus. However the primus in question does not receive permissions to roll 3d6 ambush because he is not part of the formation. GW has been specific in saying formation rules do not carry over to outside IC. So in this event I would say the Primus does grant the unit in the formation the ability to roll 3d6, but he himself does NOT have permission to do that thus they would be forced to roll 1 dice.

I am not even sold on a RAI argument because the decurion itself limits you to 1 primus for fluff reasons.

I'll start a thread in YMDC but I don't see it that way. The unit does all of those things and checks only if the primus is in the unit. The primus ceases to exist as an individual entity once he joins the unit. The unit gains all of the benefits and the unit is in the formation. Might be that GW didn't intend it to be that way, but reading Rules As Written is hard enough sometimes. Rules As Intended is utterly impossible to decipher.

 luke1705 wrote:

That's pretty similar to my list. I drop the third acolyte squad in the subterranean formation to give me a second maxed out genestealer squad led by a patriarch (from the brood cycle). I use a CAD HQ slot for that. So I also sacrifice a third primus in my subterranean formation but the third squad still gets 2 rolls. It also allows me to max out the other 2 squads with a banner, a chain saw and 20 guys. Sadly, I don't have points for the magus though.

It's probably better to not have the second squad of genestealers, although the 5++ is really nice, and stealth is great too. The down side is they have no Cult Ambush mitigation, so if I roll poorly they're just a giant area denial blob. Could be worse I suppose.

Also, if you count the turn 1 and turn 2 rolls, it's substantially better than 50% chance for a primus-led blob squads.

I am pretty enthused about the prospect of larger units. Hidden saws are awesome, and with the ability to shuffle on and off the table to get into position, the only targeting issues you create for yourself are due to the points costs of the units themselves. Assuming I can get enough games away from my Tau, I may try extreme MSU and a mix of MSU and bigger hard-hitting units to see which I like better. I'm guessing the former.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I dont think it works with outside primuses because the formation grants the unit inside of it the 3d6 ambush if joined by a Primus. The unit has permission to roll 3d6 for ambush because it is joined by A primus. However the primus in question does not receive permissions to roll 3d6 ambush because he is not part of the formation. GW has been specific in saying formation rules do not carry over to outside IC. So in this event I would say the Primus does grant the unit in the formation the ability to roll 3d6, but he himself does NOT have permission to do that thus they would be forced to roll 1 dice.

I am not even sold on a RAI argument because the decurion itself limits you to 1 primus for fluff reasons.

I'll start a thread in YMDC but I don't see it that way. The unit does all of those things and checks only if the primus is in the unit. The primus ceases to exist as an individual entity once he joins the unit. The unit gains all of the benefits and the unit is in the formation. Might be that GW didn't intend it to be that way, but reading Rules As Written is hard enough sometimes. Rules As Intended is utterly impossible to decipher.

The problem is that the Primus Is a independent entity even when he joins a squad. Formation rules are not shared between units from different formations or detachments. The units in the uprising get to roll 2d6 or 3d6 because they are granted those rules by their formation. A Primus who joins that unit from an outside detachment (such as a CAD) does not have those special rules confered by the uprising formation. The Primus does not have permission to roll more than 1d6 thus the unit cannot roll more than 1d6 because a part of the unit cannot perform that action.

My problem with large units is you're very much putting all your eggs in one basket. If you fail to get a 6, then that unit is underperforming. Also, if you have 4x5 instead of 1x20, you have more ability to cover far parts of the board, more likely to get a unit that gets a 6, no loss of charge bonus for charging multiple units (If you charge 1 for 1).

Maybe run a single large squad with the primus, and then the rest just MSU so you can get the benefits of both.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

The problem is that the Primus Is a independent entity even when he joins a squad.

That is not how independent characters work. Quite the opposite, actually. But this is probably best left for YMDC instead of tactics threads.

 luke1705 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

The problem is that the Primus Is a independent entity even when he joins a squad.

That is not how independent characters work. Quite the opposite, actually. But this is probably best left for YMDC instead of tactics threads.

He joins the unit not the formation. Special rules can cross over, but not formation rules. What I mean by an IC being an independent entity is that he does not join that unit for everything. He does not become that unit or inherit all of their rules. He is a unit within the unit. For most game purposes he is the same unit, but not for things like formation rules which is the topic at hand. Sorry if I am not making what I mean very clear. I was never very good at that. ^^;;

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
My problem with large units is you're very much putting all your eggs in one basket. If you fail to get a 6, then that unit is underperforming. Also, if you have 4x5 instead of 1x20, you have more ability to cover far parts of the board, more likely to get a unit that gets a 6, no loss of charge bonus for charging multiple units (If you charge 1 for 1).

Maybe run a single large squad with the primus, and then the rest just MSU so you can get the benefits of both.

Eggs in one basket...sort of. In any other army, yes, but the list I posted above still has 14 units. That's quite a lot of flexibility. The Acolyte units are 180pts (255 with the Primus), and while that's not super cheap, it isn't exactly breaking the bank, either. You'd probably be better off trading an Acolyte unit or two for multiple 5-man units, but I don't see the big units being outrageously costly.

MilkmanAl wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
My problem with large units is you're very much putting all your eggs in one basket. If you fail to get a 6, then that unit is underperforming. Also, if you have 4x5 instead of 1x20, you have more ability to cover far parts of the board, more likely to get a unit that gets a 6, no loss of charge bonus for charging multiple units (If you charge 1 for 1).

Maybe run a single large squad with the primus, and then the rest just MSU so you can get the benefits of both.

Eggs in one basket...sort of. In any other army, yes, but the list I posted above still has 14 units. That's quite a lot of flexibility. The Acolyte units are 180pts (255 with the Primus), and while that's not super cheap, it isn't exactly breaking the bank, either. You'd probably be better off trading an Acolyte unit or two for multiple 5-man units, but I don't see the big units being outrageously costly.

That's true. Being so cheap, even a big block isn't really super expensive.