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 luke1705 wrote:

zamerion wrote:
I have other question.

Can i make 2 cult insurrection detachament (2 decurions) and benefit with +2 to the reserves?

I don't see why not. The bonus is not unique. I don't know if guaranteed reserves on turn 2 (vs 2+ reserves) is that big of a deal, but -2 to your opponent's reserves roll would be pretty good.

I don't think it's a competitively viable option since the brood cycle and the cavalcade are both not that great and that would be like 800 points of your army if you took two...but it wouldn't be awful because of the aforementioned benefits. Not something I'd run but go to town.

I do not believe the bonuses would stack as they are the same rule being applied twice. If you had two separate sources of -1 reserves then they stack, but when its the exact same rule from the exact same detachment it wont stack.

Here is my (un)friendly 2kish pt of GSC & Inquisition List. I'm still playing around with the points and such but I know its kind of cheezy. I will have my two Magus and a Patriarch trying to learn Summons, the other one learn biomancy and the inquisition learn divination. Make my opponent re-roll the seize or i can reroll because of coteaz. Have the Inquisition be my Distraction in the middle of the field and have all my vehicle outflank while the scout Cult Ambush. Everything else infiltrate and Cult Ambush but the two Hybrids in CAD. Could use some suggestion, been playing around the idea making my neo more usfull.
Total: 1955

Core
Neophyte Cavalcade: 460
1x min unit of Neo w/ chimera double heavy flamer - 115
1x min unit of Neo w/ chimera double heavy flamer - 115
1x min unit of scout sentinel w/ flamer - 35
1x min unit of scout sentinel w/ flamer - 35
1x min unit Leman Russ w/ Lascannon; Exterminator auto cannon; multi-melta - 160

Command
The First Curse: 395
[Warlord]Patriarch ML2 - 115
Genestealers x20 - 280

2x Lord of the Cults
Magus ML2 w/ Crouchling - 85
Iconward w/ Icon of the cult - 95

Aux
Subterranean Uprising: 500
Primus w/ Scourge and Void eye - 105
4x min units of Hybrids w/ cult icon - 50
3x min units of Meta 3 w/ claw, 2 w/ whip and cult icon - 65

CAD
[HQ] Magus ML2 - 65
[HQ] Patriarch ML2 - 115

[T] Hybirds - 40
[T] Hybirds - 40

Inquisitorial Detachment 160
[HQ] Inquisitor Coteaz - 100

[Elite] 2xCrushaer 3xPsyker - 60

Sibuna wrote:
Here is my (un)friendly 2kish pt of GSC & Inquisition List. I'm still playing around with the points and such but I know its kind of cheezy. I will have my two Magus and a Patriarch trying to learn Summons, the other one learn biomancy and the inquisition learn divination. Make my opponent re-roll the seize or i can reroll because of coteaz. Have the Inquisition be my Distraction in the middle of the field and have all my vehicle outflank while the scout Cult Ambush. Everything else infiltrate and Cult Ambush but the two Hybrids in CAD. Could use some suggestion, been playing around the idea making my neo more usfull.
Total: 1955

Core
Neophyte Cavalcade: 460
1x min unit of Neo w/ chimera double flamer - 115
1x min unit of Neo w/ chimera double flamer - 115
1x min unit of scout sentinel w/ flamer - 35
1x min unit of scout sentinel w/ flamer - 35
1x min unit Leman Russ w/ Lascannon; Exterminator auto cannon; multi-melta - 160

Command
The First Curse: 395
[Warlord]Patriarch ML2 - 115
Genestealers x20 - 280

2x Lord of the Cults
Magus ML2 w/ Crouchling - 85
Iconward w/ Icon of the cult - 95

Aux
Subterranean Uprising: 500
Primus w/ Scourge and Void eye - 105
4x min units of Hybrids w/ cult icon - 50
3x min units of Meta 3 w/ claw, 2 w/ whip and cult icon - 65

CAD
[HQ] Magus ML2 - 65
[HQ] Patriarch ML2 - 115

[T] Hybirds - 40
[T] Hybirds - 40

Inquisitorial Detachment 160
[HQ] Inquisitor Coteaz - 100

[Elite] 2xCrushaer 3xPsyker - 60

Step1: I think your neophytes in the cavalcade cost 125 per unit not 115.
Step2: I don't think primus can have scourge and voids eye (I might not use ether)
Step3: why do you have 3 inq Psyker in one squad? You know they are brotherhood of Psyker and give no additional benefits after the first. So instead I would take 3 squads of 2 acolytes with bolters and one Psyker. Each has squad is 20 pts and gives you 1 warp charge total for the same cost as your 3 Psyker and 2 crusaders.
I might try to skim a few more points to beef up one of the 3 inq squads to use as a forest base for Coteaz 3 survitors with heavy bolters or multimeltas and a pair of lazermonkies with a few acolites meat shields is like 120pts but very worth it.

The inq is not a distraction your whole army is. Coteaz should sit in a ruin somewhere and just do firesupport. If the enemy is foolish enough to concentrate fire on him then you will smash him with all your gribbles. One thing to watch though in larger point games your min squads are easily wiped out even by overwatch by many full squads they might charge. I might consider beefing them up a bit to like 8men so they will have a chance to go back to the shadows and regenerate. I have built a similar army and I find that the higher the points the more the enemy has in his toolbox to deal with our cult ambush so be ready to loose squads. I like the idea of suicide bombers taking one or two min squads of acolytes with demo charges and tossing them at heavy concentrations of the enemy. They will die very quickly but that first turn pie plate is devastating.

Sorry for multiple edits but one last thing if you can find the points armored sentenals are so much better it's ridiculous as after they flame they can assault and most units can't Crack ar 12 so they are great tie up units.

I noticed that no-one has mentioned the Deliverance Broodsurge formation as a possibly option. Having 2-6 Goliath's with 2-6 units of 10x Neophyte Hybrids with Shotguns, 2x Flamers or Webbers, a Cult Icon and a Leader with a Power Pick would be a good option to have start on the board as the rest of your army Cult Ambush's no?

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
I noticed that no-one has mentioned the Deliverance Broodsurge formation as a possibly option. Having 2-6 Goliath's with 2-6 units of 10x Neophyte Hybrids with Shotguns, 2x Flamers or Webbers, a Cult Icon and a Leader with a Power Pick would be a good option to have start on the board as the rest of your army Cult Ambush's no?

Unfortunately people don't have 3-6 trucks.

Sibuna wrote:
Here is my (un)friendly 2kish pt of GSC & Inquisition List. I'm still playing around with the points and such but I know its kind of cheezy.

I'm not seeing the cheese here. You're spending an awful lot of points on vehicles which, at the end of the day, aren't all that capable, and Template weapons on a side-AV-10 vehicle is just asking for a wreck. I like Purestrains and Patriarchs as much as anyone, but The First Curse seems hugely expensive for such a fragile unit. What exactly is it about this army that you think is cheesy?

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
I noticed that no-one has mentioned the Deliverance Broodsurge formation as a possibly option. Having 2-6 Goliath's with 2-6 units of 10x Neophyte Hybrids with Shotguns, 2x Flamers or Webbers, a Cult Icon and a Leader with a Power Pick would be a good option to have start on the board as the rest of your army Cult Ambush's no?

I'm not sure why they'd need the wargear if they're just placeholding. Surely more bodies would be better than kit if all you want them to do is sit tight while you set up Ambushes?

Meh, it's like playing Guard or Chaos Cultists at that point

See I figured it wouldn't be a bad option to kit the Leaders with Power Picks and dual special weapons as the Goliaths can drive at Crusing Speed towards the enemy and the Neophytes charge from open topped transports. Thats possible 24" charge no? Average 19". Not bad, the Unquestioning Loyalty allows the leader to issue a challenge and his mooks tank wounds till he kills a MEQ. The squad can fire their shotguns and special weapons on the turn they charge to albeit snap firing but its not bad if you ask me. Also the Goliaths can ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned.

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
See I figured it wouldn't be a bad option to kit the Leaders with Power Picks and dual special weapons as the Goliaths can drive at Crusing Speed towards the enemy and the Neophytes charge from open topped transports. Thats possible 24" charge no? Average 19". Not bad, the Unquestioning Loyalty allows the leader to issue a challenge and his mooks tank wounds till he kills a MEQ. The squad can fire their shotguns and special weapons on the turn they charge to albeit snap firing but its not bad if you ask me. Also the Goliaths can ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned.

Actually it's a longer charge isn't it? 12" vehicle move, 6" deployment, up to 12" charge. That puts you at a 30" charge range with a 25" average.

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
See I figured it wouldn't be a bad option to kit the Leaders with Power Picks and dual special weapons as the Goliaths can drive at Crusing Speed towards the enemy and the Neophytes charge from open topped transports. Thats possible 24" charge no? Average 19". Not bad, the Unquestioning Loyalty allows the leader to issue a challenge and his mooks tank wounds till he kills a MEQ. The squad can fire their shotguns and special weapons on the turn they charge to albeit snap firing but its not bad if you ask me. Also the Goliaths can ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned.

Don't quote me on this but I don't believe the Sergeants have the Unquestioning Loyalty SR. The Sergeant would simply die. Also the transports only hold 10 models and cannot hold any of the other HQs. The best you can do is a few IG equiv attacks and a few pick attacks. Doesn't seem to hot.

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
See I figured it wouldn't be a bad option to kit the Leaders with Power Picks and dual special weapons as the Goliaths can drive at Crusing Speed towards the enemy and the Neophytes charge from open topped transports. Thats possible 24" charge no? Average 19". Not bad, the Unquestioning Loyalty allows the leader to issue a challenge and his mooks tank wounds till he kills a MEQ. The squad can fire their shotguns and special weapons on the turn they charge to albeit snap firing but its not bad if you ask me. Also the Goliaths can ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned.

Actually it's a longer charge isn't it? 12" vehicle move, 6" deployment, up to 12" charge. That puts you at a 30" charge range with a 25" average.

Up to a 36" threat range if you can give them run and charge and fleet through psychic powers, and a 31" average. We have some serious mobility, no matter what we do.

Anyone been playing with the Aberrants much? Back with the old Trysst Dynasty formation they generally performed well for me, but I haven't had much experience with them with the new codex yet.

Saythings wrote:
Don't quote me on this but I don't believe the Sergeants have the Unquestioning Loyalty SR. The Sergeant would simply die. Also the transports only hold 10 models and cannot hold any of the other HQs. The best you can do is a few IG equiv attacks and a few pick attacks. Doesn't seem to hot.

No they don't, sadly. Only the Independent Characters do.

Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!

I've played a few games and recapped them if you want to look through my post history (but if you read this thread you've already seen them)

I'll be playing a game or two tomorrow as well, though the writeup likely won't happen until saturday afternoon

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!

I noticed I almost always want to try to go into the 'shadows' with all my units, to make sure I got the full Initiative. Even when you got first turn its to big of a risk to get seized. The only problem is that if you get second turn you need to use the ambush rule for your subterrean uprising when deploying. I put them behind my aegis defence line but I have to make sure the enemy cannot turbo boost within 6 inch because then I cannot use the 'return to the shadows' rule anymore. That can be really difficult when you're facing Scatterbikes. You can also try to scatter the units all over the field so that it is hard to block all units from using the 'return to the shadows' rule.

I also like the genestealer cult psykers/powers but I also don't want to spend to much time on this because playing this army takes up a lot of time as it is.

Why would you return to the shadows if you had scatterbikes within 6"? Charge them fools!

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!

I've done two - both footslogging GSc versus Scatbike/ D-weapon Eldar. Won one, lost one, although the margin of victory wasn't huge in either.

Some stuff I've picked up:

1) Your models die like flies. Holy Empra do they ever like to die. This can, of course, be accounted for with Insurrection Reinforcements and Summons, but it bears remembering if you're coming to the army from MEQ-land like I did.

2) Rock Saws - don't do it. AP2 close combat attacks can cause tanks to explode all over your squishy bods. Paying to kill your own dudes in assault is bad. If you want them, put them on Summoned squads. De-clawed Morphs should likewise be left at home; they don't Explode stuff, they're just not very good.

3) I wasted points buying Flamers both times I played. I won't do that again. I can see some uses for them, but they're quite situational uses and I'd rather have the extra bodies instead.

4) Sort of flows from point 1: min-maxed Acolyte squads and Morphs are not reliable enough to work alone, even against stupid stuff like Scatbikes or Warp Spiders, and running 5 into MSU MEQs is extremely risky. With such flimsy dudes and the propensity for 4+ hit/ wound assault rolls to whiff, it's all to easy to lose combat by 1 and get Swept. There were some spectacular moments of whiffage and near-whiffage in assaults (5 Morphs versus a Vaul's Wrath crew, foregone conclusion right? Wrong) and overall I'd recommend charging with at least 2 units wherever possible, 3 if you're expecting a nasty Overwatch.

5) This doesn't apply to Purestrains. They're dead killy. However, killy as they are, I'd advise against using them as your front-line CC unit. Hold them back and use them to help your main line dudes break down stuff that's difficult to chew. Sending them in first is wasteful - they don't have grenades for one thing, which is bad news, but they're also an obvious threat, so you know for a fact your opponent is going to Overwatch at the Purestrains no matter what else you charge in with. Letting them charge stuff that's already locked in combat solves both of these problems at a stroke.

6) If you're running Uprisings, take a flippin' Primus. Ambush rolls can be very streaky even with the 2D6; an extra D6 helps smooth them out a bit.

7) The Patriarch, pound for pound, is a strictly average melee fighter. You don't take him to have fist-fights with tough stuff, especially not other army's CC units. He will die if you do that. You take him because he adds WC dice to your pool, and he has a Fearless bubble. Don't be afraid to keep him out of combat. This goes double for the Primus; it'll be harder to keep him out of combat because he'll likely be rolling with an Uprising squad, but don't expect miracles out of him, and try to keep him alive to keep the Hatred bubble up as long as possible.

8) Telepathic Summons is ossom. Psychic Stimulus is ossom. Don't neglect Broodmind if you're running Magi/ more than one Patriarch.

9) MSU is a good way to play an Insurrection army. Flimsy as your dudes are, there's nothing to guarantee that an opponent will be able to wipe a 5-man squad with a single unit's shooting - and if he doesn't wipe them out, they can RttS, Reinforce, and return next turn to smear his nose. If he **does** concentrate on wiping out units, he's guaranteed to end up wasting at least some of his firepower to take down single models. That's good for you.

10) Remember to use Cult Ambush constantly and liberally, both to Reinforce damaged units and to re-position when required. I'm still struggling with this, just because it's so different to anything else I'm used to, but I think this is the key to running footslogging GSC armies successfully.

Another piece of advice which may be worth heeding depending on how your group plays RttS: I play it that units can't RttS instead of Falling Back or Regrouping - I can't find anything to support them being able to do so, and in the absence of a good argument to allow it I choose to go with the most conservative option. In this situation, having a Patriarch bubble as a backstop is great for catching units that are fleeing from a failed Ambush, so they can either get back into the fight or RttS next turn to Reinforce.


EDIT: Also, final advice - GSC are awesome and fantastic fun to play. No idea how competitive they might be, but they're a real hoot to run.

I played the 2nd round of my Escalation League last night, and won a rousing victory For the Father!!!

My army was as follows:

CAD
1 Magus w/ Crouchling & 2 Familiars, Mastery Level 2
1 Magus w/ Mastery Level 2
10 Neophytes w/ 2 Grenade Launchers in a Goliath
10 Neophytes w/ 2 Mining Lasers in a Goliath
1 Goliath as a Fast Attack choice (my Limo as a counts-as Goliath - see my Cult log in my sig below)

Neophyte Cavalcade
10 Neophytes w/ 2 Grenade Launchers in a Chimera
10 Neophytes w/ 2 Flamers & 1 Heavy Stubber in a Chimera
1 Leman Russ Exterminator w/ Lascannon & 2 Mult-Meltas
1 Scout Sentinel w/ Heavy Flamer
1 Armoured Sentinel w/ Autocannon & Hunter-Killer Missile

I was facing Space Wolves and the mission was "Here I Shall Die" from Angels of Death. My opponent was the "Space Marine Player" and I got the first turn. It started slow, with me only wrecking a Razorback and Rhino on the first turn and whiffing both attempts to use Telepathic Summons, but then things picked up as I managed to summon 2 units a Turn until I ran out of models available to summon. The game ended with me winning 14-6 having tabled him and taken the Objective, as well as earning Slay the Warlord and First Blood.

My takeaway from this game is two-fold.

1) When things go well with this army, they can go really, really well.

2) I need to assembly a LOT more models if I want to take advantage of Telepathic Summons once we get to the higher point levels. Most of the stuff I summoned from tonight already appear in my later planned lists. Thankfully, I just got another few sets of Overkill models (mostly Neophytes, but some Acolytes as well) so I can kit out several more squads!

Oh, and I'm happy to report that the Limo served admirably, resisting the efforts of a unit of Grey Hunters (with a melta gun and a combi-melta), defying them to even scratch its paint for two turns. (He was out of Melta range on the first turn, missing with one and failing to glance with the other, then the melta gunner fell to twin-linked Autocannon shooting and a Krak grenade and lots of close combat Attacks failed to scratch it.) Sadly, it was eventually destroyed on Turn 4 - but basically held up that unit of Grey Hunters for all four of those turns as he stubbornly continued to try and destroy it!

 BBAP wrote:
Another piece of advice which may be worth heeding depending on how your group plays RttS: I play it that units can't RttS instead of Falling Back or Regrouping - I can't find anything to support them being able to do so, and in the absence of a good argument to allow it I choose to go with the most conservative option. In this situation, having a Patriarch bubble as a backstop is great for catching units that are fleeing from a failed Ambush, so they can either get back into the fight or RttS next turn to Reinforce.

I hadn't even considered that conundrum yet - mainly because I have yet to have a unit Fall Back thus far, except for a unit of Acolytes that were caught by a Sweeping Advance so it didn't come up. I believe I agree with your interpretation, on the grounds that Falling Back is a Compulsory Move, so you can't choose to do something else instead - and since Return to the Shadows is something you can do instead of Moving, you don't get that option.

 Ambience 327 wrote:
I hadn't even considered that conundrum yet - mainly because I have yet to have a unit Fall Back thus far, except for a unit of Acolytes that were caught by a Sweeping Advance so it didn't come up. I believe I agree with your interpretation, on the grounds that Falling Back is a Compulsory Move, so you can't choose to do something else instead - and since Return to the Shadows is something you can do instead of Moving, you don't get that option.

It's a pretty rare occurrence, especially if you're playing an MSU army; the frailty of the models means its rare that units survive to check Morale, let alone fail it. It does happen sometimes though, and we rule it the way we do for this exact reason. Likewise units that have gone to ground, although I think the rule is a lot more clear cut here - you can't move while G2G, so you can't do something "instead of moving".

 BBAP wrote:
Why would you return to the shadows if you had scatterbikes within 6"? Charge them fools!

If one jetbike unit can block 10+ genestealer cult units from going into the shadows, it could be a good tradeoff for the Eldar player.

 BBAP wrote:

4) Sort of flows from point 1: min-maxed Acolyte squads and Morphs are not reliable enough to work alone, even against stupid stuff like Scatbikes or Warp Spiders, and running 5 into MSU MEQs is extremely risky. With such flimsy dudes and the propensity for 4+ hit/ wound assault rolls to whiff, it's all to easy to lose combat by 1 and get Swept. There were some spectacular moments of whiffage and near-whiffage in assaults (5 Morphs versus a Vaul's Wrath crew, foregone conclusion right? Wrong) and overall I'd recommend charging with at least 2 units wherever possible, 3 if you're expecting a nasty Overwatch.

You really have to take into account that their fragile and that rending might not go the way you want. I once dropped a unit of 15 acolytes +2x rock saw + patriarch near two wraithknights and was really happy about it. Then both wraithknight charged this unit and with sum successful stomp results the killed this unit in two turns.

You have to play the mission. Take out the units that stand in your way of doing this and be prepared to lose a lot of units in the process.

 BBAP wrote:
EDIT: Also, final advice - GSC are awesome and fantastic fun to play. No idea how competitive they might be, but they're a real hoot to run.

YES, it's a lot harder then I thought because even when the can hit like a hammer, its still a glass hammer and things could go wrong very fast if you don't play smart.

shogun wrote:
You have to play the mission. Take out the units that stand in your way of doing this and be prepared to lose a lot of units in the process.

The last part of that is what really threw me as an MEQ player - losing units is a big blow for my other armies, but with the GSC you're not only going to lose them, you have so many you can actually throw them away and it doesn't matter. Also Cult Ambush makes playing the mission so much easier - it's like Drop Pods 2.0, you can throw stuff down wherever it needs to be at that instant without worrying about it being out of position in later turns. I love it.

One other thing I'm finding more and more as I'm playtesting bigger MSU armies - don't be afraid to put stuff in Reserve, especially if you're running Uprisings, but bear in mind that if you go second whatever you leave on the table will have to weather two turns of abuse before it can RttS and recuperate. Reserve rolls synergise really well with Cult Ambush, allowing you to constantly throw fresh units at problems while your wounded ones skulk away to reinforce, and by the time the 5th turn rolls around you can have a pretty devastating clutch of units coming in at the last second to wreck some face.

 BBAP wrote:

[2) Rock Saws - don't do it. AP2 close combat attacks can cause tanks to explode all over your squishy bods. Paying to kill your own dudes in assault is bad. If you want them, put them on Summoned squads. De-clawed Morphs should likewise be left at home; they don't Explode stuff, they're just not very good..

You've gotten me thinking about that more and more. Initially I was intent on sprinkling in hand flamers and rock saws in small units. Now I think I'm just going to add more bodies.

What do you attach your primus to in your big 3d6 ambush subterranean unit? I was going to do a large squad of acolytes with saws, icon and upgraded leader? You doing a max squad of metamorphs with claws/whips?

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
What do you attach your primus to in your big 3d6 ambush subterranean unit? I was going to do a large squad of acolytes with saws, icon and upgraded leader? You doing a max squad of metamorphs with claws/whips?

No, just a 5-man unit of Claw-Morphs. For my money the only upgrades in the book worth paying for are Metamorph Claws and Mastery Level 2. In theory, my Primus and his dudes are supposed to be a semi-reliable unit of Claws that I can depend on to support assaults by other Ambushers. In practise I've rolled one 6 on the three occasions I've Ambushed him (9d6, one 6, what are the odds?), but provided you don't get a 1 or a 2 it's easy enough to just plonk him down near your 6ers and feed them Hatred. I think it's probably good to give him a bit of protection if you end up doing this, but I'm not really worried about losing him; Hatred is cool when you're rolling 40+ to-hit dice, but even without it you're still rolling 40+ to-hit dice.

This approach to using the Primus might make more sense if I show you the list I'm mucking about with in proxy games:

Insurrection
- Lord
--- Patriarch, ML2, Familiar
- Lord
--- Magus, ML2
- Brood Cycle
--- Iconward
--- 3x5 Acolytes
--- 2x10 Neophytes
--- 5 Metamorphs w/ Claws
--- 5 Purestrains
- Uprising
--- Primus
--- 3x5 Claw-Morphs
--- 4x5 Acolytes
- Uprising
--- 3x5 Claw-Morphs
--- 4x5 Acolytes
- Mutants
--- 1x5 Claw-Morphs
- Mutants
--- 1x5 Claw-Morphs

CAD
--- Patriarch, ML2
--- Patriarch, ML2
--- 2x5 Acolytes
--- 2x5 Claw-Morphs


1850pts. The overarching principle is "ITC-legal, as many Claw-Morphs as possible plus Summoning & Fearless", although to be honest while the Summons is nice, I don't think the list would suffer much without it. You definitely want those Fearless bubbles though; they come in very handy indeed for a variety of reasons. I've played this iteration twice now, once against shooty Eldar and once against a silly Iron Hands invisible Bike-star with Celestine and Priests; both armies were quite small and it was easy enough to just drown them in bodies. I'm guessing that approach would hold up well against most things, but I'd like to test it some more first.

So I just played in a team tournament and got to play the GSC in a full competitive format for the first time, against some of the best west coast ITC players in the biz (including the winner of the BAO)

I ran:

Cult Insurrection Detachment

Neophyte Cavalcade
x10 neophytes, shotguns, chimera, multi laser, heavy flamer, dozer blade
x10 neophytes, shotguns, chimera, multi laser, heavy flamer, dozer blade
leman russ, exterminator autocannon, heavy flamer, dozer blade
scout sentinal, heavy flamer

Subterranean Uprising
primus, special sword
x10 acolyte hybrids, acolyte leader, cult icon, x2 rock saws
x10 acolyte hybrids, acolyte leader, cult icon, x2 rock cutters
x10 hybrid metamorphs, claws, cult icon, metamorph leader
x10 hybrid metamorphs, claws, cult icon, metamorph leader
x10 hybrid metamorphs, whips, cult icon, metamorph leader, bonesword

The First Curse
Patriarch, level 2, x2 familiars
x20 purestrain genestealers, x15 scything talons

Lords of the Cult
magus, level 2, x2 familiars, the crouchling
acolyte iconward, icon of the cult ascendant

Notes:
-when the army goes right, it escalates VERY quickly, but when you get "meh" or abysmal ambush rolls, it goes bad VERY quickly
-seizing is a severe danger with this army, I got seized on first round vs a cabal dog DS, with some artillery and lost a good 60% of my army turn 1 due to the fact I had deployed very aggressively in his face with 3 6s being rolled, and he was then able to initiate all combats as he saw fit.
-do not be afraid to engage or place the first curse into danger from the start. I never got a 6 from this unit, but they can take a helluva punishment and are dead killy in CC.
-all of the leaders (save the icon bearer) are quite nasty in challenges, even the magus who is S5 base and with all those extra S4 attacks, he was credited for killing a sorcerer, and a bloodcrusher leader in CC
-In an army like this the +1 to reserves is negligible as most is ongoing, but the -1 is useful
-In a more CC oriented cult list, the D6 models back when returning almost NEVER happens. It is very easy for opponents to place a model 6" away, and when CC oriented they are always either in combat, or next to enemies.

Per formation:
-uprising is da S$#@, seriously that extra roll is CRITICAL to its success. Forcing them to deploy via ambush is no biggie even if going second, as you just stick them at your edge, reserve them turn 1 and bring everything in turn 2 all at once. -The whip unit with bonesword guy is especially useful for clearing up equal or higher initiative enemies when you want to mitigate casualties, and the bonesword is excellent to have when dealing with any armor 3+ models.
-As most people have discovered, claw hybrids are amazing and threaten anything in the game with ease, twice a single unit killed a knight on the charge.
-The acolytes did admirably, rock saws murder vehicles, the clippers gave things like surges heart palpitations, they are fun and can be useful, but not essential, great distraction unit
-I will split the acolyte squads into 2x5 in the future, as I fell they are better served as units to eat overwatch for claw hybrids, and this allows me more chances for 6s on ambush

First Curse:
-fun, murderous and EXPENSIVE. But surprisingly hard to kill, especially when you get lucky and roll endurance...

Cavalcade:
-mediocre at best, good saturation, flamers on everything for outflanking is key

That is about all I can think of, the cavalcade is def a tax formation, but still useful in certain respects, the curse inspires great fear in enemies and the sub is just the bee's knees yall

 gameandwatch wrote:
-when the army goes right, it escalates VERY quickly, but when you get "meh" or abysmal ambush rolls, it goes bad VERY quickly

I think that's a result of folding all your little units up into singles. Min squads are only putting out half as many attacks as 10-mans, but they get twice as many Ambush dice. It's perfectly possible to roll 15+ Ambushes and not get a single 6 even with most of your army in Uprisings (believe me, I know), but it's much less likely than if you're only rolling 7 Ambushes.

-seizing is a severe danger with this army, I got seized on first round vs a cabal dog DS, with some artillery and lost a good 60% of my army turn 1 due to the fact I had deployed very aggressively in his face with 3 6s being rolled, and he was then able to initiate all combats as he saw fit.

As someone else told me in another thread the secret to this army seems to be to always deploy as if you're going second. Deploy a couple of units, at most, up front to threaten and hold the rest of your stuff back, then RttS (almost) everything on turn one, and start playing on turn two when your Ambush comes in.

Reserves also mesh quite nicely with Cult Ambush, particularly if you have a large number of units.

-I will split the acolyte squads into 2x5 in the future, as I fell they are better served as units to eat overwatch for claw hybrids, and this allows me more chances for 6s on ambush

People will ALWAYS Overwatch at the Morphs. Always. Your Acolytes are there to make up for any Morphs you lose to Overwatch - they're not as good as the Morphs, but they're still pretty nasty in their own right.


Also that Whip-Morph squad is exactly the same as the one I usually opt for when Summoning stuff. I love it to bits - WS5, I7 with grenades, and a lovely bonesword to smush characters. Everyone else hates it.

 BBAP wrote:
As someone else told me in another thread the secret to this army seems to be to always deploy as if you're going second. Deploy a couple of units, at most, up front to threaten and hold the rest of your stuff back, then RttS (almost) everything on turn one, and start playing on turn two when your Ambush comes in.

Their 3 effective ways to play this army:

- Ambush/deploy right in their face into sum terrain and make use of the shrouding that comes with the detachment. You will lose half your army if you go second, but the other half gets the job done.
- Go into ongoing reserve with your units and start playing the second turn. That way you always got the ambush initiative and you never get seized.
- Play the mission and trow sum distraction units in their face while the other units do the "This is mine" dance on the tactical objectives.

After a few test games I think I always want to include at least 2 patriarchs (1850 point list) because 1 fearless bubble is not enough. I am also going to trow out the hand flamers but I do want 2 big acolyte units of 15 with 2 rock saws in there. 1 unit with the primus can roll 3d6 and the other one could go with the patriarch warlord, that might get the warlord trait nr '6' and can choose his ambush result.

 BBAP wrote:

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!

I've done two - both footslogging GSc versus Scatbike/ D-weapon Eldar. Won one, lost one, although the margin of victory wasn't huge in either.

Some stuff I've picked up:

1) Your models die like flies. Holy Empra do they ever like to die. This can, of course, be accounted for with Insurrection Reinforcements and Summons, but it bears remembering if you're coming to the army from MEQ-land like I did.

2) Rock Saws - don't do it. AP2 close combat attacks can cause tanks to explode all over your squishy bods. Paying to kill your own dudes in assault is bad. If you want them, put them on Summoned squads. De-clawed Morphs should likewise be left at home; they don't Explode stuff, they're just not very good.

3) I wasted points buying Flamers both times I played. I won't do that again. I can see some uses for them, but they're quite situational uses and I'd rather have the extra bodies instead.

4) Sort of flows from point 1: min-maxed Acolyte squads and Morphs are not reliable enough to work alone, even against stupid stuff like Scatbikes or Warp Spiders, and running 5 into MSU MEQs is extremely risky. With such flimsy dudes and the propensity for 4+ hit/ wound assault rolls to whiff, it's all to easy to lose combat by 1 and get Swept. There were some spectacular moments of whiffage and near-whiffage in assaults (5 Morphs versus a Vaul's Wrath crew, foregone conclusion right? Wrong) and overall I'd recommend charging with at least 2 units wherever possible, 3 if you're expecting a nasty Overwatch.

5) This doesn't apply to Purestrains. They're dead killy. However, killy as they are, I'd advise against using them as your front-line CC unit. Hold them back and use them to help your main line dudes break down stuff that's difficult to chew. Sending them in first is wasteful - they don't have grenades for one thing, which is bad news, but they're also an obvious threat, so you know for a fact your opponent is going to Overwatch at the Purestrains no matter what else you charge in with. Letting them charge stuff that's already locked in combat solves both of these problems at a stroke.

6) If you're running Uprisings, take a flippin' Primus. Ambush rolls can be very streaky even with the 2D6; an extra D6 helps smooth them out a bit.

7) The Patriarch, pound for pound, is a strictly average melee fighter. You don't take him to have fist-fights with tough stuff, especially not other army's CC units. He will die if you do that. You take him because he adds WC dice to your pool, and he has a Fearless bubble. Don't be afraid to keep him out of combat. This goes double for the Primus; it'll be harder to keep him out of combat because he'll likely be rolling with an Uprising squad, but don't expect miracles out of him, and try to keep him alive to keep the Hatred bubble up as long as possible.

8) Telepathic Summons is ossom. Psychic Stimulus is ossom. Don't neglect Broodmind if you're running Magi/ more than one Patriarch.

9) MSU is a good way to play an Insurrection army. Flimsy as your dudes are, there's nothing to guarantee that an opponent will be able to wipe a 5-man squad with a single unit's shooting - and if he doesn't wipe them out, they can RttS, Reinforce, and return next turn to smear his nose. If he **does** concentrate on wiping out units, he's guaranteed to end up wasting at least some of his firepower to take down single models. That's good for you.

10) Remember to use Cult Ambush constantly and liberally, both to Reinforce damaged units and to re-position when required. I'm still struggling with this, just because it's so different to anything else I'm used to, but I think this is the key to running footslogging GSC armies successfully.

Another piece of advice which may be worth heeding depending on how your group plays RttS: I play it that units can't RttS instead of Falling Back or Regrouping - I can't find anything to support them being able to do so, and in the absence of a good argument to allow it I choose to go with the most conservative option. In this situation, having a Patriarch bubble as a backstop is great for catching units that are fleeing from a failed Ambush, so they can either get back into the fight or RttS next turn to Reinforce.


EDIT: Also, final advice - GSC are awesome and fantastic fun to play. No idea how competitive they might be, but they're a real hoot to run.

Agree with most of what you said, except.

2) It's a buried powerfist, it's fantastic. If you run into a rhino or something you don't want to explode... just use your rending claws. You have multiple weapons, you know.

5) You can't overwatch once the first unit makes contact, so they can't save overwatch for you if you have other units able to make charges.

7) He gets 8 rending attacks at WS/I 7 for 100 pts. Half of which are at S6 with shred and AP3. That's really powerful for the cost. With his unquestioning loyalty, he should be the absolute last model to die. I can't think of many things he won't kill that aren't 2x+ his cost. With wounds flowing out of challenges, he can easily pick out enemy characters and then still do a decent number of wounds to a squad. He's not going to kill Abaddon or a SM Chapter Master... but he's also barely more expensive than a tac squad.

I ran a pair of first curse formations with a Tyranid army (Sky tyrant formation, flyrant, 3x1 zoes, 2x5 man GS with Broodlord), the patriarchs did some serious heavy lifting. Meganob squad, maulerfiend, nobz, etc. 3A base stealers is really powerful. Stealth and 5++ makes stealers slightly more durable, with the formation to give them shrouding and FNP they'd be even better. Getting seized on and rolling poorly on cult ambush hurts, but the 3A base and durability means you're still fighting pretty well on the defensive.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
2) It's a buried powerfist, it's fantastic. If you run into a rhino or something you don't want to explode... just use your rending claws. You have multiple weapons, you know.

I always forget you can choose to use another weapon in CC. That'll come in handy. I still think the Saws are too expensive, and not strictly necessary if you have Claws everywhere, but that's another issue entirely.

5) You can't overwatch once the first unit makes contact, so they can't save overwatch for you if you have other units able to make charges.

Is that right? The order in the book is declare charges ==> resolve Overwatch ==> move charging units - so if you declare charges with multiple units the target can pick which one it Overwatches against, because none make contact until after that's resolved.

7) He gets 8 rending attacks at WS/I 7 for 100 pts. Half of which are at S6 with shred and AP3. That's really powerful for the cost. With his unquestioning loyalty, he should be the absolute last model to die. I can't think of many things he won't kill that aren't 2x+ his cost. With wounds flowing out of challenges, he can easily pick out enemy characters and then still do a decent number of wounds to a squad. He's not going to kill Abaddon or a SM Chapter Master... but he's also barely more expensive than a tac squad.

He only gets 8A if you take the Familiars, which isn't a bad idea, but isn't necessary to get the most out of him, I feel. He'll put a hole in basic troopers and HQs all day long, but everything else in the army can do that anyway, and considering what else he brings to the army in the shape of Fearless bubbles it feels a bit wasteful to me to have Big Poppa fighting. I'm not saying "don't ever do it", because he's still --good-- at it, but so is everything else in the army (except Neophytes) so it's easy enough to keep him out of combat and not miss him.

An example; the last game I played was against an Iron Hands Bike deathstar with a Smashf**ker Prime. My Acolytes and Morphs did pretty much all of the killing that occurred, while my three Patriarchs skulked around in cover, passing off Whirlwind wounds to their Neophytes and making everything Fearless and preventing Fall Backs. They didn't charge once and I still managed to take out everything bar the deathstar, which had a few dudes missing by the end of the game (although the 4 dudes I managed to kill cost me 8 or 9 squads).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:
- Ambush/deploy right in their face into sum terrain and make use of the shrouding that comes with the detachment. You will lose half your army if you go second, but the other half gets the job done.
- Go into ongoing reserve with your units and start playing the second turn. That way you always got the ambush initiative and you never get seized.
- Play the mission and trow sum distraction units in their face while the other units do the "This is mine" dance on the tactical objectives.

I'm not sure #1 is a good idea, depending on how you run your army. It seems like it'd be too easy to lose the other half of your army through attrition during the game, what with it being so fragile.

#3 is one of the main reasons I love the GSC though. ObSec units with Cult Ambush are a big-time menace, and being able to just get Linebreaker out of nowhere makes me feel good inside.

Is that right? The order in the book is declare charges ==> resolve Overwatch ==> move charging units

Your order is right, but its singular not plural. You declare a charge with a single unit at a time, not all charges. After declaring that single charge, opp decides to overwatch or not against that single unit and resolves it. Then declared unit rolls the charge and moves if it still can. Rinse and repeat declaring a charge, resolving the overwatch (if the unit is not locked in a previous step) and moving chargers.

 winterman wrote:

Is that right? The order in the book is declare charges ==> resolve Overwatch ==> move charging units

Your order is right, but its singular not plural. You declare a charge with a single unit at a time, not all charges. After declaring that single charge, opp decides to overwatch or not against that single unit and resolves it. Then declared unit rolls the charge and moves if it still can. Rinse and repeat declaring a charge, resolving the overwatch (if the unit is not locked in a previous step) and moving chargers.

Nice one! That'll keep my gribblies safer from now on.