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 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:

I'm running into a similar situation. I'm playing in the Adepticon Team Tournament and we're doing a blend of a cult themed list. One army can take a formation, so that's obviously a subterranean. One list will be pure tyranids, and the other is a tempestus scions list. But for the two GSC lists, I'm contemplating more mech. Potentially Primus as HQ's attached to big genestealer squads. They're fairly durable.

When you have to run essentially CAD and only get 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 Heavy, 1 Fast and 3 Troops, it makes for interesting selections.

If it helps at all, I was thinking about something like this:

HQ: Magnus with Level 2 and Crouchling

ELITES: 10x Metamorphs with Claws and Banner + Goliath Truck

TROOPS: 10x Acolytes + Goliath Truck
TROOPS: 10x Acolytes + Goliath Truck
TROOPS: 10x Acolytes + Goliath Truck

FAST: 3x Armored Sentinels

HEAVY: 3x Rock Grinders with Mining Lasers

Off the top of my head I think that was around 980, so a bit of points to play around with (hadn't decided on a weapon configuration for the Sentinels). Regrettably, my teammates are all using Imperials so I can't use the cult due to Adepticon's theme scoring system.

Also when building metamorphs, I've been using the Tyranid Warrior/Lictor-looking Rending Claws that were intended for use on the squad leaders as extra Metamorph Claws, since they do look bulkier than their standard claws and are technically still "claws" rather than Talons.

 zedsdead wrote:
im curious if Tank shock becomes a big disadvantage to the GSC since the only unit giving fearless is the patriarch. I see guys running multi units of genestealers. However without fearless they become more susceptible to Tank Shocks. MSU and gladius could preform this pretty well.

Is this a correct assumption or false ?

Yes and no. Losing units to TS Morale checks isn't a huge problem, but an army with lots of tanks can run them into your lines, which means bunched-up dudes perfect for Blasting or Templates and no way to RttS. If he does that though you'll be able to shred his tanks next turn and potentially pin the majority of his army with Emergency Disembarkations so it's six and two threes.

i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.

Not really. Cult Ambush mitigates a lot of the damage these things can do and allows you to run them down quickly.

Its why im still trying to figure out a Mech GSC army

Been trying to do that since the book came out, and in all honesty I think if you want mech GSC your best bet is to bring Guard with a Demo Claw or two. Everything else seems supremely underwhelming.

i actually also run a doting throng to get fearless units of neophytes in the list to help tie things up in combat and have another bubble of fearless in-case the patriarch dies or has to be on another part of the board.

One of the lists we are trying out next has 19 trucks in it but i dont think it will do nearly as well as the hord army for gsc

I dont mind prople tank shocking especially if they have units in them as you have enough bodies to charge and surround them and kill everything inside. this really only happens with un-experienced players but sometimes you can catch a good player off guard with it and get free KP'S

 BBAP wrote:

i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.

Not really. Cult Ambush mitigates a lot of the damage these things can do and allows you to run them down quickly.

Its still possible to put the non-subterean uprising units in normal reserves (2+) with cult ambush and deploy the subterean uprising units in the back, on the table edge and every model 2 inch from each other. If the barrage blast doesn't scatter (of the table) its still only going to take about 3 models down.

Also a tip: dont forget the 5+ coversave you get from 'intervening models'. In combination with first turn shrouded it can be really handy.

So here's a fun fact: A flyrant +Mucolid costs almost the same as a basic bare bones Subterranean Uprising (2x5 Acolytes, 3x5 Claw Metamorphs. Only a ten point difference, 255 vs 245... In that perspective it really makes me rethink my list sadly :/ And now I need to go buy 5 more boxes of acolytes...

shogun wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.

Not really. Cult Ambush mitigates a lot of the damage these things can do and allows you to run them down quickly.

Its still possible to put the non-subterean uprising units in normal reserves (2+) with cult ambush and deploy the subterean uprising units in the back, on the table edge and every model 2 inch from each other. If the barrage blast doesn't scatter (of the table) its still only going to take about 3 models down.

Also a tip: dont forget the 5+ coversave you get from 'intervening models'. In combination with first turn shrouded it can be really handy.

Both wyverns and Tfcs are ignores cover for what thats worth. Not saying edge of the board isn't a good strategy tho.

 jifel wrote:
So here's a fun fact: A flyrant +Mucolid costs almost the same as a basic bare bones Subterranean Uprising (2x5 Acolytes, 3x5 Claw Metamorphs. Only a ten point difference, 255 vs 245... In that perspective it really makes me rethink my list sadly :/ And now I need to go buy 5 more boxes of acolytes...

Thats why I rather go with full GSC. acolytes and metamorphs can almost deal with anything but hive tyrant devourers got their limits. If you want sum anti-flyer your better of with an aegis defence line + skyfire/interceptor weapon platform

the_scotsman wrote:

shogun wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.

Not really. Cult Ambush mitigates a lot of the damage these things can do and allows you to run them down quickly.

Its still possible to put the non-subterean uprising units in normal reserves (2+) with cult ambush and deploy the subterean uprising units in the back, on the table edge and every model 2 inch from each other. If the barrage blast doesn't scatter (of the table) its still only going to take about 3 models down.

Also a tip: dont forget the 5+ coversave you get from 'intervening models'. In combination with first turn shrouded it can be really handy.

Both wyverns and Tfcs are ignores cover for what thats worth. Not saying edge of the board isn't a good strategy tho.

The intervening models tip had nothing to do with the (indirect) barrage ignore cover blasts. just a separate piece of advice.

Been trying to do that since the book came out, and in all honesty I think if you want mech GSC your best bet is to bring Guard with a Demo Claw or two. Everything else seems supremely underwhelming.

Emperor's Wrath Artillery nonsense and 2 Demo Claws seems to be a pretty solid combo. You might as well bring a Brood cycle for the proper culty goodness and some extra bodies to keep stuff away from your vehicles, too.

I think GSC troopers are just too fragile to make a decent meatshield, which relegates them to running up-field, and I'd imagine using GSC assault units plus artillery might get a bit... claustrophobic.

I still want to try GSC + Shadowsword though. Not sure how competitive it would be, but it sounds like fun.

shogun wrote:

 jifel wrote:
So here's a fun fact: A flyrant +Mucolid costs almost the same as a basic bare bones Subterranean Uprising (2x5 Acolytes, 3x5 Claw Metamorphs. Only a ten point difference, 255 vs 245... In that perspective it really makes me rethink my list sadly :/ And now I need to go buy 5 more boxes of acolytes...

Thats why I rather go with full GSC. acolytes and metamorphs can almost deal with anything but hive tyrant devourers got their limits. If you want sum anti-flyer your better of with an aegis defence line + skyfire/interceptor weapon platform

Gotta disagree on the Icarus... flyrant is much better firepower and can be used for normal shooting not just AA, and are just bou always useful. An Aegis requires a CAD which means lots more tax units that don't get any real benefits. I am a bit back and forth on 2/3 flyrants but I wouldn't go lower than 2. Too many lists are vulnerable to flyrants, I can't really justify not having them, especially given the $ cost of a full GSC army.

 jifel wrote:
An Aegis requires a CAD which means lots more tax units that don't get any real benefits.

You're generally running at least one CAD in a pure GSC army though. Even with Allies I think you want those extra Patriarchs.

I am a bit back and forth on 2/3 flyrants but I wouldn't go lower than 2. Too many lists are vulnerable to flyrants, I can't really justify not having them, especially given the $ cost of a full GSC army.

If you're trying to build GSC on the cheap money-wise then I agree, double Flyrants are probably the best way. In terms of army function though, I think pure GSC just works better. Everyone swears blind to me that Flyrants are the best units in the game, but the one time I ran them they were both dead by turn 3. Not only that, but I had to take out so many of my Claw-Morphs that I ended up assaulting with Neophytes, which is not a position you want to be in.

My problem with flyrants is that they don't help against your worst match up, riptides. Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.

 vercingatorix wrote:
Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.

I'm not worried about Riptides, to be honest. Fire 8 pulse shots and 4 SMS rockets into my 5-man squads all you like. Takes a long while to chew them down, but hey.

Stormsurges are a massive pain, though. The 4D6 thing alone is pretty nasty.

 BBAP wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:
Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.

I'm not worried about Riptides, to be honest. Fire 8 pulse shots and 4 SMS rockets into my 5-man squads all you like. Takes a long while to chew them down, but hey.

Stormsurges are a massive pain, though. The 4D6 thing alone is pretty nasty.

Why do you care? You said you only take 5 man squads? Also no overwatch (from itself anyway)

I would think 8 sms rockets (let's be real) would be your worst nightmare. As I said earlier in the thread but no one responded. 3 riptides remove 6 units with ripple fire/ hail fire smart missiles alone.

 vercingatorix wrote:
Why do you care? You said you only take 5 man squads? Also no overwatch (from itself anyway)

I hide my HQs in 10-man Neophyte squads - the 4D6 thing (no idea what it's called) can force my HQs to roll saves. I'm not used to doing that for GSC HQs, and I don't like it.

I would think 8 sms rockets (let's be real) would be your worst nightmare. As I said earlier in the thread but no one responded.

At BS3, not really. They're not nice, but they're not putting enough wounds into anything to force my HQs to roll saves. Might remove a unit or two, but hey.

3 riptides remove 6 units with ripple fire/ hail fire smart missiles alone.

... leaving me with 19-21 units, right?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being flippant about these things - Tau are not an easy army to face down with GSC, but they're not as intimidating to GSC as they are to other armies. Going first would make the game easier, but I don't think you're totally screwed if you go second. Your mobility is limited by EWOs but you've still got a pretty huge board presence going for you, and your killiness is scattered throughout your whole army. It's not an easy game, but it's not an auto-loss.

 vercingatorix wrote:
My problem with flyrants is that they don't help against your worst match up, riptides. Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.

See I've had no issues with riptides at all, but I see fliers as a huge issue for GSC. Any FMC with witchfires can do huge damage. Fatey or magnus both auto know a nova which is super bad. Flyrants help a lot there. Flyrants are also good for drawing fire against inexperienced opponents.

 jifel wrote:
Flyrants are also good for drawing fire against inexperienced opponents.

I'm not convinced that's a bonus, considering the stuff you have to remove to fit the Flyrants in. 510pts is 46 Claw-Morphs, and with only 4 wounds your Flyrants really aren't that resilient against massed S6 shooting. I'm also not convinced they'll be much help against Magnus; he doesn't care about SitW and the Devourers won't worry him at all. I'm not even sure it'd be better than nothing against him; having more models means losing a bucketful to Novas is less of an issue.

jifel wrote:

shogun wrote:

 jifel wrote:
So here's a fun fact: A flyrant +Mucolid costs almost the same as a basic bare bones Subterranean Uprising (2x5 Acolytes, 3x5 Claw Metamorphs. Only a ten point difference, 255 vs 245... In that perspective it really makes me rethink my list sadly :/ And now I need to go buy 5 more boxes of acolytes...

Thats why I rather go with full GSC. acolytes and metamorphs can almost deal with anything but hive tyrant devourers got their limits. If you want sum anti-flyer your better of with an aegis defence line + skyfire/interceptor weapon platform

Gotta disagree on the Icarus... flyrant is much better firepower and can be used for normal shooting not just AA, and are just bou always useful. An Aegis requires a CAD which means lots more tax units that don't get any real benefits. I am a bit back and forth on 2/3 flyrants but I wouldn't go lower than 2. Too many lists are vulnerable to flyrants, I can't really justify not having them, especially given the $ cost of a full GSC army.

You're comparing a 35/50 points anti flyer gun with a 240 point hive tyrant, so yea the Hive tyrant got better fire power. Some lists are vulnerable to hive tyrants but against most lists I'am better off with 25(5x5) extra acolytes/metamorphs. If the enemy brought 1 helldrake, stormtalon etc.. its enough to bring only a icarus gun. If the enemy brought 3/4 flyers it got a -1 reserves and the will be to late to stop the GSC army because to much points where spend on flyers.

jifel wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:
My problem with flyrants is that they don't help against your worst match up, riptides. Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.

See I've had no issues with riptides at all, but I see fliers as a huge issue for GSC. Any FMC with witchfires can do huge damage. Fatey or magnus both auto know a nova which is super bad. Flyrants help a lot there. Flyrants are also good for drawing fire against inexperienced opponents.

Riptides are not my worst enemy with GSC. Yes, there shooting hurts but if only a few GSC models with rending break thru its over quick. Daemon FMC really forces GSC to play the mission and for that you need more GSC-units. Flyrants drop dead against Daemon FMC. Don't understand why you would think that Flyrants are great in this scenario.

I'll second that Riptides aren't really your worst problem against Tau. That'd be broadsides, as we discussed earlier in the thread. I'd go as far as to say that you actually want that 190pt model shooting at your 45-55pt units, if at all possible. Yeah, they'll get wiped out, but that's a ton of wasted firepower. If they have intercepting SMS (which they likely will), though...eh. 2 units per turn is a bit more problematic.

I also agree that sending wave after wave of my own men in to do whatever is the best defense for flyers. Accept that you can't do anything about them, and make it hard for them to maneuver around your units as you kill stuff.

For mech, here's the core I had in mind - a fairly obvious start:

Cult Insurrection
Iconward - 65
2x10 Neophytes - autocannon, 2 grenade launchers - 140
3x5 Acolytes - 120
2x5 Metamorphs - claws - 110
5 Genestealers - 70

Demo Claw
2x5 Acolytes - demo charge - 120
2 Goliaths - 100
3 Rock Grinders - seismic cannons, demo charges - 255

Demo Claw
2x5 Acolytes - demo charge - 120
2 Goliaths - 100
3 Rock Grinders - seismic cannons, demo charges - 255

All that is 1455, so you have ~400 pts to play with. I'd originally planned an Emperor's Wrath Artillery formation for some impressive crowd control and -1 reserve shenanigans, but you could certainly opt to flesh out the Demo Claws with 2 more units of Acolytes and tank-hunting Goliaths plus some DTs in the Brood Cycle. You might also add a SubUp for extra ambush punch to disorganize your opponent's DZ. All options seem quite viable.

Either way, I think it's a solid core. 10 vehicles should be enough to group up and position to avoid the vast majority of side shots, not to mention dominate a large chunk of space on the board. You've also got a fair amount of pesky combat units to RTTS/ambush around the board.

It seems like the game to play with this army will be midfield control. The Rock Grinders are awesome at close and middle range shooting, and you can readily place screening units in the way of anything getting danger close. The demo charge Acolytes will basically hide out of sight until they can either run up to something and demo charge it or get an ambush 6. Goliaths and Neophytes sit back and/or camp objectives while providing ranged support.

It's not the conventional way to run GSC, but I can see it working well. Remember that while GSC is awesome at the early offensive, cult ambush also makes it exceptional at counter-offensives. Anything trying to get close to your steel curtain does so at its own peril!

I started out thinking that flyrants would be the natural ally for GSC, but as time has gone on i have changed my mind.

Flyrants are very good, but mostly in the context of a particular build. Flyrants work best when you have a lot of them. A single flyrant just is not that durable. Any list that is prepared for Riptides has the tools too kill 2-3 flyrants.

When you have five or six highly mobile very shooty tyrants you can absorb the loss of one or two, kill the key threats, and be in decent shape. When you only have two of them and the rest of your army is built around a completely different set of tactics, a smart opponent is going to be able to focus down or ignore the tyrants.

Now, a single flyrant + two mucolids is only 270 points, and it is a nice tool against the occassional flyer, but I don't see it being worth the investment because GSC is not worried about the occassional flyer. GSC is worried about the flyer heavy lists, like daemons or (ironically) mass Flyrants, that it can't touch for 5 turns while taking casualties.

In those cases I think the viable options are to either just try play the mission using the Cults ability to take casulties and not care or to invest in IG allies.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'll second that Riptides aren't really your worst problem against Tau. That'd be broadsides, as we discussed earlier in the thread. I'd go as far as to say that you actually want that 190pt model shooting at your 45-55pt units, if at all possible. Yeah, they'll get wiped out, but that's a ton of wasted firepower. If they have intercepting SMS (which they likely will), though...eh. 2 units per turn is a bit more problematic.

The thing about Broadsides over Riptides and Stormsurges is they bring the most useless unit in the GSC army - Neophytes - into the game. Their damage is still negligible, and they're still mainly tarpits rather than threats, but they can pick wounds off here and there in a way they couldn't against the bigger stuff.

You've also got a fair amount of pesky combat units to RTTS/ambush around the board.

Yeah, but they're all min squads, and the thing about min squads is that they need support from lots of other min squads in order to be effective. Tooling the Neophytes up as shooting turrets isn't great, partly because shooty Neophytes are a constant source of disappointment, and partly because you now have no tarpit units. Your min squads need those to protect them from damage while they're sitting around waiting to RttS.

You also have no psykers, which means no denying Invisibility, and no Summoning in replacements when your MSUs start dying (which they will from turn 1 onwards), no Mind Control or Mass Hypnosis either (the latter of which means Stealer-spam armies can run right into and through you without stopping).

The more I play around with GSC, the more I'm starting to think static formations just aren't a good idea. They're not resilient enough to control areas of the table reliably and they're not shooty enough to make plinking a viable option. Seems like the only way to play GSC is to just go for the throat with everything right from the get-go and use whatever tricks you have to keep the pressure on your opponent from turn 1 onwards.

 BBAP wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'll second that Riptides aren't really your worst problem against Tau. That'd be broadsides, as we discussed earlier in the thread. I'd go as far as to say that you actually want that 190pt model shooting at your 45-55pt units, if at all possible. Yeah, they'll get wiped out, but that's a ton of wasted firepower. If they have intercepting SMS (which they likely will), though...eh. 2 units per turn is a bit more problematic.

The thing about Broadsides over Riptides and Stormsurges is they bring the most useless unit in the GSC army - Neophytes - into the game. Their damage is still negligible, and they're still mainly tarpits rather than threats, but they can pick wounds off here and there in a way they couldn't against the bigger stuff.

Also, every GSC unit that got a '5' result can shoot at the broadsides, drones etc, before interceptor.

 BBAP wrote:

The more I play around with GSC, the more I'm starting to think static formations just aren't a good idea. They're not resilient enough to control areas of the table reliably and they're not shooty enough to make plinking a viable option. Seems like the only way to play GSC is to just go for the throat with everything right from the get-go and use whatever tricks you have to keep the pressure on your opponent from turn 1 onwards.

Yep, I also don't see any other way to play it.

I would like to do a few test games against:

- Tau with stormsurge / 3 riptides and broadsides
- Dark angels bikes
- space marine battle company
- Bark-star
- Magnus/Tzeentch Daemon Prince- FMC list
- Eldar
- GSC with genestealers
- GSC with 3x flyrants

I just want to play 3 rounds in 3 different missions/setups just for strategic play. I think I will open a separate topic for this..

I've played a few games against "tournament"-style Eldar and Taudar now (lots of Scatbikes, lots of Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, Scythe-Guard in a Wave Serpent, Riptide Wing) and I think GSC handle them reasonably well. You get a feel for just how much these armies rely on their mobility when you're Cult Ambushing at them - they can, and will, put a severe hurt on you, but with so few units and no way to stop me getting to them, their firepower can run thin very quickly. Plan on losing 4+ units in each of his Shooting phases, get hold of the Wraithknight as soon as possible and start grinding it down (especially if it's one of those stinking Scatman Wraithknights, those things are murder), and try to Emergency Disembark the Scythe-Guard as soon as possible before they can Template your Magus blobs. That seems to work. Also if he brings Vaul's Wrath batteries get rid of those too - don't waste 6s on them though, use your 5s. Autopistols suck, but they'll (usually) kill Guardian crewmen, and even if they don't the unit will still be there threatening to hit him next turn.

I've also played two games against a Grav-spam White Scars Gladius. The first one I tried out Tzeentchy Daemon allies for a lark - it was a complete disaster and I will never speak of it again. The second one was really scrappy; he had Servo-Skulls, and neither of us knew how they affected Cult Ambush so we played it the same way as normal infiltrate (can't go within 12" of them, etc etc), then I deployed badly, got trapped on the table by Drop Pods, Scouting Rhinos, and my own IG allies, and all three of my Patriarchs ended up stuck in combat with his Command Squad for two turns. I lost the primary because his dudes managed to grab the Relic - all the crap in midfield plus RttS denial from auto-regrouping Marines meant I couldn't get enough units over to get it back, but I won the secondary by a couple of VP. Killed most of his tanks in the initial rush, which cost him mobility, then used the couple of CAD Acolytes I had in reserve to sneak Objective VP while his dudes were all stuck in the meatgrinder. If he hadn't rushed me I'd probably have lost the secondary - but I'd also have had a much easier time getting the RttS carousel going with fewer units to lock me on the table, so it's swings and roundabouts. This was one of the games that made me realise how sucky Allies actually are for GSC - you have to remove awesome GSC units to fit in mediocre Missile Launchers and sucky Guardsmen, and if that wasn't bad enough they can trap you on the table. Blech.

I've played precisely one game against the Tau and I can't draw any conclusions from it because it was... unique. Mentioning it here though because it was pretty funny, and it demonstrates what a pain the Stormsurges can be. He rolled the "d3 units infiltrate" Warlord Trait, but I won the roll-off for Infiltrators and just covered the table with dudes so he had to reserve his Stormsurge, two Riptides, his Culexus and his commander. I had seven units charging on turn one, he didn't have enough stuff on the table to stop it hitting him, and everything he deployed got rolled up and put back in the box - aside from a unit of Fire Warriors who lost a dude to Autopistols and ran away, but stayed on the table just long enough to prevent a turn one tabling. That let the Stormsurge and Commander arrive on turn 2. I Mind Controlled the Surge, used it to blow up the Commander, and the rest of the game was just me picking off everything else as it arrived while the Surge wandered around the table, blowing up my MSUs and Stomping out anything that charged it. I think it ended 17-8 or something like that, and I picked up most of those VP in the first turn. Fairly sure if he'd just deployed normally I'd have had a much more difficult time of it. One thing I did take away from this game is that Supporting Fire can be beaten the same way normal Overwatch can - by charging in with cruddy units first and bringing the big guns in later in the phase - but you need a lot more units than normal, and you need to be very careful about how you go about it. You also need to practise it, because when I did it it took me fifteen minutes to figure out what to charge where to shut it down as efficiently as possible.

Can't speak to the other armies - I'm still the only GSC player for miles around so I haven't seen Stealer-spam yet, but I'm thinking Neophyte bubble-wrap, Summons and Mass Hypnosis would be the way to go. Flying Circus Daemons could probably be chased off the table, I guess. Not sure how you'd handle the Barkstar, although again I think leading with Autoguns then following up with Mass Hypnosis, Summons, and massed assaults would probably get rid of it. If it's just one big unit you could probably leave some CAD dudes in reserve and use them to grab VP or something.

shogun wrote:

I would like to do a few test games against:

- Magnus/Tzeentch Daemon Prince- FMC list

I played a list like this just. Magnus, LoC w/ Robes, Exalted Sorc w/ Scarab Occult, 1k Sons unit, Tzangors, 2x11 Pinks, Blue Scribes.

I was running a min Brood cycle (whip metas), 2x Sub uprisings with 3x5 metas and 2x5 acos, 1 saw each, then a Magos w/ Crouchling, Patriarch and 5 genes in the Formation. And then a CAD of 2 more Magi, and 2x10 Neophytes.

We were playing at my local GW, so only on a 4x4, and mission was bases. I gave him first turn and only infiltrated my Uprisings into ruins. He summoned a unit of screamers and a herald, killed one uprising unit, and pinned another 4 with his FMCs so they couldn't leave the board. That was more of a threat than his shooting with Shrouding and ruins - fully half my uprising units were useless t1 and largely t2 due to that. I returned everything I could in my turn.

Turn 2 he summoned another herald summoned some horrors, but dealt with another 2 units or so. I brought on everything but one Brood cycle acolyte unit, getting 3 6s. I also summoned two units of acos/metas, with another 6 for 4 in total. I flung everything but my warlord's unit (who popped up in the back to give fearless to two GtG units so they could return) into his deployment zone, and proceeded to get stuck into the Tzangors, 1k sons, and horrors. We won some, lost some, but I got rid of both heralds and didn't fail any LD checks (got the Psy power that let everything use my Warlord's, which was very handy). Whittled things down.

Turn 3 his fliers turned around and came back upfield, plinking away at squads but not really managing to do anything too notable. Magnus charged and killed a unit of summoned metas, creating a spawn. He summoned another herald and an exalted flamer, which mishapped and I placed out of the way. I got 6s on all 4 units I had coming on this turn, though didn't manage to summon anything else. Piled them mostly into the backfield combats, though a few went to tie up his termies and his summoned horrors in midfield. I ended up wiping out his 1k sons unit, Tzangors, and both pink horror units (and making quite a dent in the blues) for everything on the backfield, but his termies won VS 2 units and a few more were locked midfield.

Turn 4 we realised we only had time to play this turn, so decided it would end at the bottom of the turn. Magnus scooted back over to my objective, but I pulled my Warlord's CAD unit onto it to steal it at the end of the game. The other one was contested by tons of my units and a couple of his (I'd almost gotten rid of the horrors by this point). Sadly my other CAD unit had been blasted away by Magnus' 5 powers, so I had no more obse and couldn't steal his base back. So it ended 4-2 to me, with 1 obj and linebreaker VS first blood and linebreaker. I don't think it would've been much different had it gone on longer - I would've cleaned up his back lines so would likely be claiming it in a turn or two.

Anyway, obviously this wasn't full flying circus but should give an idea of how we would do. The 4x4 really hurt as it was much easier for him to pin units in place - but in future I will also be taking an aegis and using probably my Brood Cycle neophytes to bubble wrap the uprisings t1. It also showed just how important obsec is - I wish I had had a few more units of it, then my victory would've been decisive! Obviously he didn't summon a huge deal, but again without obsec I am unsure how much of a difference it would've made - I woulda had a ton more units left to deal with the summoned units too. But ignoring the fliers does seem the way to go.

 BBAP wrote:



I've played precisely one game against the Tau and I can't draw any conclusions from it because it was... unique. Mentioning it here though because it was pretty funny, and it demonstrates what a pain the Stormsurges can be. He rolled the "d3 units infiltrate" Warlord Trait, but I won the roll-off for Infiltrators and just covered the table with dudes so he had to reserve his Stormsurge, two Riptides, his Culexus and his commander. .

I'm pretty sure that infiltrate is every other. So unless your first unit took up the whole board then this wouldn't work.

Also, this makes sense because what you were saying about not being scared of riptides makes sense!

"Only BS 3" riptides with 8 missiles should still wipe a 5 man squad in one round of shooting.

Again, it comes down to the scenarios I put on my other comment.

The scenarios
Scenario 1: no bubble wrap, GSC going first- lose one unit to overwatch- kill riptides (Total of 1)

Scenario 2: bubble wrap, GSC going first - lose one unit to overwatch- kill bubble wrap-hail fire, smart missile overload- lose 6 units- lose 1 unit to overwatch- hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides (Total of 8 units)

Scenario 3: no bubble wrap-GSC going second- lose 6 units(all the ones who can charge)- lose 3 more to regular shooting- lose 1 more to overwatch-hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides (Lose 10 units)

Scenario 4: bubble wrap - GSC going second- lose 6 units(all the ones who can charge)- lose 3 more to regular shooting- lose one unit to overwatch and kill bubble wrap, lose 1 more to overwatch-hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides (At least 11)

And this makes sense as it was what happened at Renegade GT. Taunar, riptide wing, and pirranah wing vs. Full bore, 150 model msu insurrection.
Tau had first turned, GSC set everything up like they were going first, 9 units rolled 6s. GSC seized the initiative! They murdered most of the bubble wrap, managed to tie up the Tau-naur.

Then the riptides hail fired and what was left bubble wrap managed to pretty much wipe everything nearby out and the Tau guy won. Granted he's the captain of Team America but his opponent was no slouch either.

I'm pretty sure riptides plus bubble wrap is a pretty nightmare match up for GSC. This is why I was thinking of taking armored company for beast hunter shells (small blast, BS 4, twin-linked, ap 2, strength 8, instant death).

GSC really need a way shoot all the bubble wrap but if you weaken your gsc side too much then you can't take advantage of removing the bubble wrap.

I think the best strategy may end up being staying out of smart missile range. Give the opponent a couple turns to come out of their castle and get confident then get in their face.

 vercingatorix wrote:
I'm pretty sure that infiltrate is every other. So unless your first unit took up the whole board then this wouldn't work.

You're right. Oh well. Not that it matters, because he's not going to be deploying by Infiltrate normally anyway so I still can't draw any conclusions from the game.

I'm pretty sure riptides plus bubble wrap is a pretty nightmare match up for GSC. This is why I was thinking of taking armored company for beast hunter shells (small blast, BS 4, twin-linked, ap 2, strength 8, instant death).

I don't think tanks are the answer - the issue is being shot off the table, not killing stuff, and your tanks don't solve that problem. If anything they make it worse - Hailfire Riptides will shut down a Russ pretty sharpish, they present juicy targets for Markerlight D-missiles since the lights aren't needed for Ignores Cover. You're also spending a lot of points on things that aren't GSC, which is a bad idea against an army that can blow up so many of your dudes every turn.

I think this is a problem to be solved with tactics rather than army changes. I can't help but notice that in all of your scenarios, you're charging the bubblewrap. That's what your opponent wants you to do, so maybe don't do that. Instead of giving him extra shots at your dudes, lead with your psykers - Mind Control the Super-Tuna, Summon in some bubblewrap of your own (with free Seismic Cannons), Hypnotise stuff that's going to hurt you, etc etc. Tau have no answer to that outside of a Culexus or Sisters of Silence, either of which can be dealt with. If there's a way to get a charge in then maybe give it a shot, but perhaps just Infiltrate normally with the majority of your army instead of Ambushing it - although that makes your psykers a bit more of a target so it might not be a good idea. Maybe Infiltrate the psykers and Ambush with everything else?

I think the best strategy may end up being staying out of smart missile range. Give the opponent a couple turns to come out of their castle and get confident then get in their face.

Cede the initiative to an army that can jump around all over the place? I don't think so, especially if you're only doing so to try and outrange the SMS. You can't avoid the SMS. They can chase you down, and you need to get into CC to hurt the Riptides. It's not an option. What was the max first turn loss you said? 11 units? Great - that's 1/3 of my army, and it's assuming I'm charging the bubblewrap, which I'm not going to do.

I can see ways around this, to be honest, but it all bears testing.

there is more then one way to beat riptides but it depends on some factors. in order,

1. mission
2, who is going first
3 do they have bubble wrap

mission is what you always want to play for as that is how you win the game so make sure you read it and know what you need to do

if you are going first and they do not have bubble wrap then go for the assault but only if it will also help you win the mission

if you are going second then you either deploy out of los and far enough back to mitigate losses and let them make a mistake. utilize terrain and tactics

if you are going first and they have bubble wrap, depending on what it is sometimes you can get through it with shooting with a "5" on CA with some neophytes. keep in mind it is not amazing shooting so it wont do much. psychic powers like multiple shrieks can make hols and dont forget the "1" power can make a unit move D6 closer and give you fleet to move past the holes you opened in psychic and shooting phase to charge what is behind. summoning units of GSC will also help by just giving them more threats on the board to overwhelm them.

against riptides you have to charge multiple units into them otherwise the overwatch will kill most or all and you wont do enough damage but as long as you win combat or tie them up by being fearless you will win eventually as they wont be able to shoot and you can bring in more units to mop up.

I did a test game against a tau army.

- Commander suit
- 2 suits with flamers
- 3 broadsides
- 1 single broadside
- 1 single broadside
- 3 riptides formation with heavy burst cannon (mont'ka)
- single riptide with heavy burst cannon
- stormsurge
- 4x4 marker drones formation (mont'ka)

I was curious if it was possible to take a round of shooting (tau went first) and still break thru and kill them.

(proxie tau and sum extra pokerchips instead of GSC models I still need)


It was close. I took out 6 markerlight drones with free deployment shooting (cult ambush result '5') and thats very good because the cannot use them anymore to increase the Bskill. But in the end it was to much. I used 2 units drones to move forward to block a flank and made it impossible for the GSC to charge from that side. On the other side the flamer-suits where capable to help with 'overwatch' and only a few models could get in close combat and next round the stormsurge simply 'stomp' them to death. Next time I'am going to put my Patriarch up front to use his 3+ save against smart missile's and 'look out sir' everything else.

Against tau you need to remove your units first turn and deploy them second turn. You can take out a few markerdrones with free deployment shooting (cult ambush result '5') and Interceptor shooting is not that scary compared to regular shooting.

Also did sum tests against Bark star. If GSC go first then its pretty much done. You shoot down a lot of dogs an after that you can attack the Bark star with 4+ units from 4 sides so that it is impossible for them to hit and run with such a big blob without getting within 1 inch. Next turn The might be invisible but it the will keep on fighting the whole battle when all the other GSC units lock in. If the Bark star got first turn then You just need to use bubble wrap to keep them in their place. The might use cleansing flame (once) but then the magus could block this with 8 +d6 warp dice on a 4+ (psyker + adamantium will) Next round the bubble wrap is dead and you get to attack the bark star from 4 angles and keep it in their place.

its also possible to create bottle necks, deploy 1/2 units outside 6 inch, and deploy the unit that attacks near the opening in a conga line.


1/2 units that deployed outside 6 inch move forward, and when the other GSC unit attacks its not possible for the barkstar to get more models in combat. Conga line in the back counts as being in close combat and the Barkstar cannot hit and run in that direction without getting within 1 inch.

shogun wrote:
Against tau you need to remove your units first turn and deploy them second turn. You can take out a few markerdrones with free deployment shooting (cult ambush result '5') and Interceptor shooting is not that scary compared to regular shooting.

The Interceptor thing isn't too bad, I agree - better still it cuts down the amount of shooting you face during the next Shooting phase, and you get to Summon between your movement and his Shooting.

I also think leading with psykers and deploying your whole army will work, even if you go second, but I need to test it out against a Tau list with bubblewrap - and the 7" strength D blasts from the Super-Tuna.

 BBAP wrote:

shogun wrote:
Against tau you need to remove your units first turn and deploy them second turn. You can take out a few markerdrones with free deployment shooting (cult ambush result '5') and Interceptor shooting is not that scary compared to regular shooting.

The Interceptor thing isn't too bad, I agree - better still it cuts down the amount of shooting you face during the next Shooting phase, and you get to Summon between your movement and his Shooting.

I also think leading with psykers and deploying your whole army will work, even if you go second, but I need to test it out against a Tau list with bubblewrap - and the 7" strength D blasts from the Super-Tuna.

If you take down a few marker drones its possible to create a situation that the tau player got to make a choice. He can either use his markerlights to ignore cover or increase the bskill but not always both. Next time my CAD partriarch warlord is going to (re)roll on strategic because apart from '-1 reserves for enemy' all other results are good to have. Night fight/stealth in combination with first turn shrouded + possible 'intervening models' and maybe 'go to ground' ouside patriarch reach, could really help against all non-ignore cover shooting. My Icon 6+ feel no pain was also helpfull against all S5 shooting.

But the 3 riptides that could fire double shots once a game really hurt, damn...