Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tyran wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:
A single squad of horrors is 50 wounds

Wait what?

I actually lied

You summon 10 pink horrors
10 wounds
Someone kills all of them, now those pink horrors split into 20 blue horrors (Which I believe are actually 2 wounds each but it doesn't really matter as they're T2)
20 wounds
Someone still really doesn't like them and kills all the blues.
40 wounds (which again, I believe are actually 2 wounds but T1 so it's even more irrelevant in most scenarios)

So it's actually 70 wounds or 130 wounds if you decided to get rid of all of them with poison weapons that have no strength.

I don't have the split rule in front of me this is just from reading about the rule on frontline and talking to players.

 BBAP wrote:
Psykana Division is 255pts base, 280 for an ML2 Primaris, and 330 if you want a Commissar for all the Wyrdvanes. With an ML2 Primaris the whole shebang generates 5 WC base, plus one for every five Wyrdvanes within 12" of the Primaris, so you can end up with 8WC from this Formation alone. If you're playing ITC comp you get 3 Detachments - your two GSC can generate a maximum of 8 Warp Charges total, so a Psykana effectively doubles your WC.

I have been thinking about this but I don't see the benefit as it doesn't really add's to the general GSC strategy. I want the option to remove most of the GSC units and deny an enemy a whole turn of shooting before I strike from the shadows again. I don't think I would like to have a bunch of vulnerable imperial psykers in the background playing with their private parts, when the Daemon FMC swoop in or the artillery starts firing at them.

But on the other hand, I do got Daemon models and the option to just increase your potential is very tempting. Let's say that one wyrdvanes unit got 'possession' and the Primaris psyker could use that power himself. Then the primaris gets possessed with 9 dice and after that the wyrdvanes unit could also do this with 5/6 dice. Thats two very cheap Khorne bloodthirsters right there.

With GSC I don't like it when models are late to the party because when GSC starts to crumble then that one extra unit doesn't help when its late. Thats also often the problem with GSC summoning instead of giving a big unit invisibility or feel no pain. But on the other hand, you can afford a little 'crumbling' if that means you got to make way for two blood thirsters.

I would then go for this:

Lvl 1 primaris psyker
2x commissar
5 wyrdvanes psykers
5 wyrdvanes psykers
5 wyrdvanes psykers

So thats about 280 points I believe. Only need 2 commissars because I would probably not be doing more then 2 summoning's in a turn.

tempting, very tempting...lets make a list for this.

I'd argue that both the gsc and psykana are hungry for warp charge. If you want to go psyker-heavy, could add this on top of psykana?

Daemon CAD

Tzerald with paradox and ML2
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors

Heralds anarchic
Tzerald
Tzerald
Tzerald

On top of the psykana division, and fill in the rest with gsc. This would make it more of a summoning list, but you'd have tons of spare warp charge to power up your patriarchs and maguses as well as three near guaranteed summons per turn

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'd argue that both the gsc and psykana are hungry for warp charge. If you want to go psyker-heavy, could add this on top of psykana?

Daemon CAD

Tzerald with paradox and ML2
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors

Heralds anarchic
Tzerald
Tzerald
Tzerald

On top of the psykana division, and fill in the rest with gsc. This would make it more of a summoning list, but you'd have tons of spare warp charge to power up your patriarchs and maguses as well as three near guaranteed summons per turn

If you go down that path your better of with a full daemon summon armylist. Besides I play at a lot of tournaments that only allow a limited amount of warp charge (14) to be used at summoning and also don't allow come to the apocalypse alliances.

I've have actually been thinking about making this:

BIG WRATH OF MAGNUS TZEENTCH DAEMON FORMATION:

* don't got the book yet so i'am just brainstorming

Lorestealer host
blue scribes 81

blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55

brimstone conglafration
excalted flamer 50

brimstone 30
brimstone 30
brimstone 30
brimstone 30
brimstone 30
brimstone 30
brimstone 30
brimstone 30


Heralds arnarchic
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45

Heralds arnarchic
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45
herald 45
paradox 25
icon for better split 25?

CAD
Herald 45
ex reward 30

19 pink horrors 171
10 brimstone 30

defenceline 70

heralds could join the pink horrors behind the defence line and the brimstone horrors could just deepstrike. If a tournament only allows a limited amount of summoning than I would just shoot the crap out the enemy with tzeentch powers.

I am great at making molds so I would make a horror conversion that would look like a bit like a squig and call them tzeentch boggle's. Also would make a small flaming ball that looks a bit like that figure in super mario. Put two of them on a base and make brimstone horrors.

But that's a little off topic.

shogun wrote:
I have been thinking about this but I don't see the benefit as it doesn't really add's to the general GSC strategy. I want the option to remove most of the GSC units and deny an enemy a whole turn of shooting before I strike from the shadows again. I don't think I would like to have a bunch of vulnerable imperial psykers in the background playing with their private parts, when the Daemon FMC swoop in or the artillery starts firing at them.

As a TAC strat it's not great - 280pts is a hefty chunk for 17 borderline-useless models, and if you're playing ITC you're giving up two GSC psyker slots (and 4 rolls on Broodmind). I think if you're dead set on Summoning Horrors for whatever reason then a Psykana Division is probably the best way to go, otherwise I wouldn't bother. I still don't think melee Daemons are a good idea. I was constantly tripping over my Screamers and DP the one time I tried it, and honestly I din't think these models really add anything that GSC need. Slaaneshi models or Cavalry or something might come in handy I guess. Or it might just screw up your RttS. Just seems like a lot of hassle for not much reward.

If you're looking for CTA Allies, Tau or Eldar or something might be a better way to go than Daemons. In fact I think Tau would be perfect CTA Allies for GSC - they have range, firepower, and resilience, which are all things GSC lack, whereas GSC have numbers and CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about this, the more I like it. Tau and GSC would be a total douchebag combo. Right up my alley.

 BBAP wrote:

shogun wrote:
I have been thinking about this but I don't see the benefit as it doesn't really add's to the general GSC strategy. I want the option to remove most of the GSC units and deny an enemy a whole turn of shooting before I strike from the shadows again. I don't think I would like to have a bunch of vulnerable imperial psykers in the background playing with their private parts, when the Daemon FMC swoop in or the artillery starts firing at them.

As a TAC strat it's not great - 280pts is a hefty chunk for 17 borderline-useless models, and if you're playing ITC you're giving up two GSC psyker slots (and 4 rolls on Broodmind). I think if you're dead set on Summoning Horrors for whatever reason then a Psykana Division is probably the best way to go, otherwise I wouldn't bother. I still don't think melee Daemons are a good idea. I was constantly tripping over my Screamers and DP the one time I tried it, and honestly I din't think these models really add anything that GSC need. Slaaneshi models or Cavalry or something might come in handy I guess. Or it might just screw up your RttS. Just seems like a lot of hassle for not much reward.

If you're looking for CTA Allies, Tau or Eldar or something might be a better way to go than Daemons. In fact I think Tau would be perfect CTA Allies for GSC - they have range, firepower, and resilience, which are all things GSC lack, whereas GSC have numbers and CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about this, the more I like it. Tau and GSC would be a total douchebag combo. Right up my alley.

I think the one eye open rule would really start to bother me.

What do you think about the skytyrant swarm? 20+ gargoyles with a hive tyrant could be useful.

I know next to nothing about Gargoyles, but I'm not really a fan of Flyrants. 265pts for 4 wounds is an awful lot, even with T6 and Swooping, plus the firepower they put out isn't all that impressive.

One Eye Open isn't a big deal with Tau, in my mind anyway, because the two armies want to be on seperate ends of the table. Tau want to sit in a corner and shred things with shooting, whereas GSC want to rove forward and shred things in close combat. There's almost no tournament format that would allow it and the army would have some specific weaknesses, but I think if we're looking at CTA Allies then Tau are the best bet. Much better than Daemons at any rate.

 BBAP wrote:
I know next to nothing about Gargoyles, but I'm not really a fan of Flyrants. 265pts for 4 wounds is an awful lot, even with T6 and Swooping, plus the firepower they put out isn't all that impressive.

One Eye Open isn't a big deal with Tau, in my mind anyway, because the two armies want to be on seperate ends of the table. Tau want to sit in a corner and shred things with shooting, whereas GSC want to rove forward and shred things in close combat. There's almost no tournament format that would allow it and the army would have some specific weaknesses, but I think if we're looking at CTA Allies then Tau are the best bet. Much better than Daemons at any rate.

Sorry I was referring to the 'one eye open' rule with daemons. With Tau that would not be an issue but I think that Tau shooting would divide the army into 50% good at close combat and 50% good at shooting, And then you're only as strong as your weakest point and that no more then 50%. Now, my army can effectively keep fighting an deathstar unit with all that meat, but a few tau units that cannot really hurt that unit with 3+ inv + 4+ feel no pain etc.. are useless.

The skyswarm formation gives you 2 units gargoyles (jump infantry) and flying tyrant and the join into one unit. Hive tyrant cannot swoop anymore and cannot leave the unit but can look out sir on a 2+. It's a nice addition but can also be very pricy.

The more I think about this, the more I like it. Tau and GSC would be a total douchebag combo. Right up my alley.

I actually played a team game where I had 500 pts of Tau (which ended up being 4 Broadsides and a Riptide), and my ally had GSC (think he used a Brood Cycle?). It was not fun for our opponents. Granted, we ignored CtA, but it honestly wouldn't have been much of an issue anyway. He was so far forward ambushing people and teleporting onto objectives that he was never anywhere near me. 1 small team game does not overwhelming evidence make, but it definitely seems like a workable combo to me.

shogun wrote:
Sorry I was referring to the 'one eye open' rule with daemons. With Tau that would not be an issue but I think that Tau shooting would divide the army into 50% good at close combat and 50% good at shooting, And then you're only as strong as your weakest point and that no more then 50%. Now, my army can effectively keep fighting an deathstar unit with all that meat, but a few tau units that cannot really hurt that unit with 3+ inv + 4+ feel no pain etc.. are useless.

Tau can drop Strength: D shooting into deathstars, or if you manage to squeeze in a Heavy Retribution Cadre you can cripple them quite badly even if the D doesn't work. Then you have Stomp on top of that. It'd open a few holes elsewhere, but 800pts of Tau would really close a lot of the competence gaps GSC have, like killing flyers or killing transports at range - easily enough to fit in a good Insurrection and enough WC to Summon.

Eldar could too I guess. Massed S6 shooting can mimic up for Skyfire and their D isn't Markerlight dependent, plus they have ML3 psykers as standard. If you dropped the Spiders from a Spdier-spam army you could probably do something with what's left.

Again though, the main issue would be finding places to play such armies. Only ETC comp allows CTA allies as far as I know; everyone else says no (even the ones that allow nonsense like the Supertuna or whatever). The FLGS might allow it, but who's going to be the douchebag to show up with a bunch of Strength D shooting and 100+ Cult Ambushers?

The skyswarm formation gives you 2 units gargoyles (jump infantry) and flying tyrant and the join into one unit. Hive tyrant cannot swoop anymore and cannot leave the unit but can look out sir on a 2+. It's a nice addition but can also be very pricy.

I dunno - as fragile as Flyrants are when they're flying they'd be even worse on the ground, and unless he's passing those LoS in challenges I'm not sure I'd trust him to do a job in CC. Plus, looking at my Nids Codex, that'd be 360pts for this one Formation, and all it's packing are Fleshborers and a grounded Flyrant. Seems like an awful lot for not much return.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:
I actually played a team game where I had 500 pts of Tau (which ended up being 4 Broadsides and a Riptide), and my ally had GSC (think he used a Brood Cycle?). It was not fun for our opponents. Granted, we ignored CtA, but it honestly wouldn't have been much of an issue anyway. He was so far forward ambushing people and teleporting onto objectives that he was never anywhere near me. 1 small team game does not overwhelming evidence make, but it definitely seems like a workable combo to me.

That's how I'd imagine it going - Tau as the hammer to crack the vase, GSC as a broom to come in and sweep up the bits, like the old 5th Edition Mech/ TWC Space Wolves armies. You could fluff it up too; model the Neophytes up as gue'vesa, stick a few Sept logos on the mining equipment (or a few GSC logos on the Suits), and tell everyone it's a fluffy army - Tau took over a Genestealer-infested planet that wasn't quite ready to summon the Hive Fleet, so the Cult is making nice for the moment. Total fluff-bunny stuff, just happens to be capable of stomping you out.

 BBAP wrote:

The skyswarm formation gives you 2 units gargoyles (jump infantry) and flying tyrant and the join into one unit. Hive tyrant cannot swoop anymore and cannot leave the unit but can look out sir on a 2+. It's a nice addition but can also be very pricy.

I dunno - as fragile as Flyrants are when they're flying they'd be even worse on the ground, and unless he's passing those LoS in challenges I'm not sure I'd trust him to do a job in CC. Plus, looking at my Nids Codex, that'd be 360pts for this one Formation, and all it's packing are Fleshborers and a grounded Flyrant. Seems like an awful lot for not much return.

I played with a skytyrant brood a lot just before genecult came out, as the initial promise of BBs for nids meant I was hyped as hell for an invisible gargoyle blob. It's actually a really solid formation. Sadly several of the tricks it had have been killed - obviously the shot at invis, but also VSG shenanigans, and dual relics on the flyrant. Generally you want a lot more than 20 gargs, like 40-50, so the flyrant has a ton of ablative wounds, old adversary, egrubs, lwbs and possibly toxin, AG, the maw-claws, reaper or the ymgarl factor on the flyrant, as well as a source of shrouded for the thing. So yeah, a ton of points, around 500 or so at least the way I ran it.

I haven't given much thought to running it with genecult, but it could work - it's excellent at controlling ground and a huge fast melee threat. Sort of use it to block off the centre of the map and suck things up into combat, then clean up with the cultists, as well as using them to countercharge stuff it gets stuck in combat with. But yah, a melee flyrant is actually not awful in combat, they will mince anything not dedicated for CC and lechine and some other nid players had moderate tourney success with a couple of em last year.

shogun wrote:

 vercingatorix wrote:
Great report! My non warhammer question is why you write with full complete sentences and correct spelling except for using "sum" instead of "some" if English isn't your first language I apologize, the rest of it was great. (I am no saint in this regard, despite decades of practice my spelling needs help.)

I agree with your final assessment as well. I actually took out a patriarch from my list to take a doting throng and more magus because I was tired of having a flank with no fearless.

Eldar can be a rough match up if you refuse to roll 6s. My advice is to just keep recycling as much as possible since every six is basically a dead enemy unit.

With that being said, that doesn't look like the flame skatchach so maybe just deploying up close and eating a turn of shooting with shrouding wouldn't hurt that badly.

Thanks! English is not my first language but I like it if you correct me, because there is no reason for my not wanting to improve my english writing.


I still gotta test 3 scenario's against different armies and different missions.

Scenario 1: Deploy the subterranean uprising + unit behind the defence line and return to the shadow, and go for second turn cult ambush(+ reserves)
after that...
-Scenario 1.1: Go for the throat and go full assault.
-Scenario 1.2: take out a flank and be ready to go back to the shadows, replenish and go for a second assault wave.

Scenario 2: deploy everything in their face and go for the assault and dominate the field. Take the maelstrom objectives.
after that...
scenario 2.1: you keep first turn and wreck havoc
scenario 2.2: you get seized and you either push thru with first turn shrouded or return to the shadow to lick your wounds and come back second turn.

scenario 3: total guerrilla style. Take the objectives and only use the '6' results to attack units and keep taking units off the board with return to the shadow and keep returning units with cult ambush.

In the FAQ, didn't they state you have to roll for each GSC unit one at a time, deploy, then roll the next GSU unit? If this is the case, you have no idea how many 6's you are going to roll by the end of your deployment. AKA - you might not ever know how many 6s you'll get Turn1 (deployment) or Turn2 & on.

Benlisted wrote:I haven't given much thought to running it with genecult, but it could work - it's excellent at controlling ground and a huge fast melee threat. Sort of use it to block off the centre of the map and suck things up into combat, then clean up with the cultists, as well as using them to countercharge stuff it gets stuck in combat with. But yah, a melee flyrant is actually not awful in combat, they will mince anything not dedicated for CC and lechine and some other nid players had moderate tourney success with a couple of em last year.

GSC control ground with Cult Ambush, insofar as they need to do it at all, and I think Invisible Neophytes would make just as good flypaper/ tarpit units, especially with a Patriarch handy. Most GSC units already murder anything that's not CC-dedicated, and I can't help but feel anything that can kill GSC units will probably kill the Flyrant as well - I don't see him getting the better of a First Curse, Wolf blob, or 20+ Daemonettes. He has no invul save, he has no protection against Force weapons in challenges... I dunno, I don't see the attraction myself.

I'm not sold on anything to do with the Allies of Convenience to be honest. AM suck - they seem like a reasonable option because they have range, but their shooting is supremely lacklustre and there never seems to be enough of it to make a difference. Nids don't really do anything GSC can't do better, and the stuff that does add something, like Flyrants, is sickeningly expensive. 250pts seems like a massive investment for 4 T6 wounds to me, even if they are only hit on a 6+.

I think the best way to do GSC allies is to run the AM/ Nids as your primary and throw in a cut-down Insurrection as Allies.

Im curious to know what everyone's GSC army consists of. i think i have my list close to finalized for this years ITC format events. as always though need to see what changes they will make and what changes events will make. kind of a wall of text.

what do your lists look like?

Combined arms detachment
115 patriarch, lvl 2(warlord)
50 x10 neophytes
50 x10 neophytes

Cult insurrection detachment
Lord of the cult
115 patriarch, lvl 2
Brood Cycle
65 iconward
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns
55 x5 metomorphs, x1 whip, x4 claw
70 x5 genestealers
Subterranean assault formation #1
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
Subterranean assault formation #2
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
Doting throng
85 magus, lvl 2, crouchling
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns

Psykana Division
50 primaris psyker
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
25 commisar
25 commisar
25 commisar

Total 1850

Not sure I get the idea behind shotgun Neophytes - double-tap before charging, sure, but they're generally charging stuff they can kill easily, or can't kill at all but can tie up. In the former case the autopistol is good enough for an opening shot, in the latter case the shotgun will do only marginally more damage than the autopistol, which is none at all. Shotguns lose the 24" single tap, which means less overlap in your firepower (if you can call it "firepower").

I thought I had my army settled too, but I've changed it a bit to accomodate Magnus Nipple Novas and Lightning Arcs and the suchlike:

Insurrection:
-- Patriarch, ML2
-- Magus, ML2
- Brood Cycle:
--- 10 Purestrains
--- 10 Claw-Morphs
--- 2x10 Neophytes
--- 3x10 Acolytes
--- Iconward
- SubUp:
--- 10 Claw-Morphs
--- 10 Acolytes
--- 10 Acolytes
- 2x Cult Mutants:
--- 2x10 Claw-Morphs

CAD 1:
- 2x Patriarchs, ML2
- 2x5 Acolytes

CAD 2:
- Patriarch, ML2
- 2x5 Acolytes

Pats go with the non-SubUp Morphs and Acolytes, Magus goes with the Neophytes.

Consolidated a lot of units together and removed a Patriarch to fit a few more models in. The 10-mans can soak Novas and the suchlike better than 5-mans can, and although the number of deployment Ambush rolls has gone down the overall number of bodies has increased slightly. Haven't played a game with this yet, still need to try it out.

I like the shot guns mainly for when you roll the 6. they only ever do well vs T3 models or units with saves that are just as bad as theirs.

as for having range i find the neophytes are my blocking units so 12" is plenty for me. and i pick up most my long range reliable shooting from pink horrors and psy shrieks if i roll on telep. but that all depends on what army i am playing against.

Saythings wrote: In the FAQ, didn't they state you have to roll for each GSC unit one at a time, deploy, then roll the next GSU unit? If this is the case, you have no idea how many 6's you are going to roll by the end of your deployment. AKA - you might not ever know how many 6s you'll get Turn1 (deployment) or Turn2 & on.

A GSC army should not be fixated on the '6' results. First turn GSC army is all about getting close with cult ambush deployment and having shrouded/stealth when facing the enemies first turn. Then the second turn everybody can assault. But you really have to calculate what happens if the seize. If the enemy begins then you have to face two rounds of shooting. If this means that you can take the objectives for two turns and it really helps than it could be worth it.

BBAP wrote: Nids don't really do anything GSC can't do better, and the stuff that does add something, like Flyrants, is sickeningly expensive. 250pts seems like a massive investment for 4 T6 wounds to me, even if they are only hit on a 6+.

I think the best way to do GSC allies is to run the AM/ Nids as your primary and throw in a cut-down Insurrection as Allies.

I think that Nids could be a nice addition. something like;

deathleaper
sporebomb
sporebomb
mawloc
mawloc
mawloc

But then you would have a second turn army that comes out of (ongoing) reserves.

IVIOOSE wrote:Im curious to know what everyone's GSC army consists of. i think i have my list close to finalized for this years ITC format events. as always though need to see what changes they will make and what changes events will make. kind of a wall of text.

what do your lists look like?

Combined arms detachment
115 patriarch, lvl 2(warlord)
50 x10 neophytes
50 x10 neophytes

Cult insurrection detachment
Lord of the cult
115 patriarch, lvl 2
Brood Cycle
65 iconward
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns
55 x5 metomorphs, x1 whip, x4 claw
70 x5 genestealers
Subterranean assault formation #1
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
Subterranean assault formation #2
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
55 x5 metomorphs, x4 claw, x1 whip
Doting throng
85 magus, lvl 2, crouchling
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns
50 x10 neophytes, shotguns

Psykana Division
50 primaris psyker
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
25 commisar
25 commisar
25 commisar

Total 1850

If I would go for the Psykana Division then I think I would like this setting. But you really have to play fast because thats a lot of MSU in combination with a longer psychic phase. I would prefer 10 model units. Only problem is your weak fearless bubble that can only look out sir to 10 neophytes max.

BBAP wrote:

I thought I had my army settled too, but I've changed it a bit to accomodate Magnus Nipple Novas and Lightning Arcs and the suchlike:

Insurrection:
-- Patriarch, ML2
-- Magus, ML2
- Brood Cycle:
--- 10 Purestrains
--- 10 Claw-Morphs
--- 2x10 Neophytes
--- 3x10 Acolytes
--- Iconward
- SubUp:
--- 10 Claw-Morphs
--- 10 Acolytes
--- 10 Acolytes
- 2x Cult Mutants:
--- 2x10 Claw-Morphs

CAD 1:
- 2x Patriarchs, ML2
- 2x5 Acolytes

CAD 2:
- Patriarch, ML2
- 2x5 Acolytes

Pats go with the non-SubUp Morphs and Acolytes, Magus goes with the Neophytes.

Consolidated a lot of units together and removed a Patriarch to fit a few more models in. The 10-mans can soak Novas and the suchlike better than 5-mans can, and although the number of deployment Ambush rolls has gone down the overall number of bodies has increased slightly. Haven't played a game with this yet, still need to try it out.

I don't think this setup is very efficient. You're giving away extra cult ambush d6 for no reason. Also don't forget the croughling on your magus.

Insurrection:
-- Patriarch, ML2
-- Magus, ML2 croughling
- Brood Cycle:
--- 10 Purestrains
--- 5 Claw-Morphs
--- 2x10 Neophytes
--- 3x5 Acolytes
--- Iconward

- SubUp:
--- 10 Claw-Morphs
--- 10 Claw-Morphs
--- 10 Acolytes
--- 10 Acolytes

- SubUp:
--- 5 Claw-Morphs
--- 5 Claw-Morphs
--- 5 Claw-Morphs
--- 5 Acolytes
--- 5 Acolytes

CAD 1:
- 2x Patriarchs, ML2
- 2x10 neophytes

CAD 2:
- 2x Patriarchs, ML2
- 2x10 neophytes

You can always attach patriarch's to your 10 acolytes units and lose the extra d6 but it's nice to have options. I'am not really fond of the 10 genestealer unit because I fear that that's the one that's going to roll 1 and 2 all the time. If you want more 12 inch adamantium will then I would give up a single patriarch and replace it with magus + 5 acolytes.

To be honest I'm a bit sick of the SubUp. The 2d6 is nice, but being forced to Infiltrate them isn't. The 10 Stealers are there primarily to provide cover saves for the Hybrids at deployment, and act as an annoyance. The army is full of Genestealers, so I don't mind if these ones make it into combat or don't.

Still not sure I like the idea of 10-man squads to be honest. They can soak Novas better than 5-mans, but they're a bit all-or-nothing. With 5-mans you can land a couple of 6s on every Ambush, and even if that's not enough to throw a big assault at someone it's usually enough to take out a backfield unit or a vehicle or something. Feels like you'd lose that by taking 10-mans; you'd spend a lot more time sitting around setting up and not assaulting anything.

Had a rethink and came up with this instead:

Insurrection
- Patriarch, ML2, Familiar
-- Doting Throng
--- Magus, ML2, Crouchling
--- 3x10 Neophytes
-- Doting Throng
--- 3x10 Neophytes
--Brood Cycle
--- Iconward
--- 5 Purestrains
--- 5 Claw-Morphs
--- 2x10 Neophytes
--- 3x5 Acolytes
-- SubUp
--- 3x5 Claw-Morphs
--- 2x5 Acolytes
-- 2x Mutants
--- 2x 5 Claw-Morphs

CAD 1:
-- 2x Patriarch, ML2
-- 2x5 Acolytes

CAD 2:
-- Patriarch, ML2
-- Magus, ML2
-- 10 Neophytes
-- 5 Acolytes

Self explanatory really. 90 Neophytes to clog up the field, eat Novas, chase FMCs, etc., plus 75 other dudes and 7 HQs (with 12WC) to do the actual work.

 BBAP wrote:

Benlisted wrote:I haven't given much thought to running it with genecult, but it could work - it's excellent at controlling ground and a huge fast melee threat. Sort of use it to block off the centre of the map and suck things up into combat, then clean up with the cultists, as well as using them to countercharge stuff it gets stuck in combat with. But yah, a melee flyrant is actually not awful in combat, they will mince anything not dedicated for CC and lechine and some other nid players had moderate tourney success with a couple of em last year.

GSC control ground with Cult Ambush, insofar as they need to do it at all, and I think Invisible Neophytes would make just as good flypaper/ tarpit units, especially with a Patriarch handy. Most GSC units already murder anything that's not CC-dedicated, and I can't help but feel anything that can kill GSC units will probably kill the Flyrant as well - I don't see him getting the better of a First Curse, Wolf blob, or 20+ Daemonettes. He has no invul save, he has no protection against Force weapons in challenges... I dunno, I don't see the attraction myself.

I'm not sold on anything to do with the Allies of Convenience to be honest. AM suck - they seem like a reasonable option because they have range, but their shooting is supremely lacklustre and there never seems to be enough of it to make a difference. Nids don't really do anything GSC can't do better, and the stuff that does add something, like Flyrants, is sickeningly expensive. 250pts seems like a massive investment for 4 T6 wounds to me, even if they are only hit on a 6+.

I think the best way to do GSC allies is to run the AM/ Nids as your primary and throw in a cut-down Insurrection as Allies.

All true, but 6pt bodies with a 12" move is something cult don't have. And cult can easily handle the stuff that would give him problems - get a patriarch with free LoS into the challenge and let the flyrant do work. I don't think it's necessarily a great option, but it certainly could work. The main reason "superbeast" flyrants, basically how you run a melee one in the skytyrant but alone, worked for people was threat overload - they were too concerned with the typical flyrants to addredd the CC threat coming at them. And we know genecult are great at threat overload.

I am inclined to agree entirely on the allies thing though - I think cult strengthen the typical flyrant spam by giving it access to some fantastically mobile objective grabbers, and while I have less experience with guard I know mobility is one of their weaknesses too.

 BBAP wrote:
To be honest I'm a bit sick of the SubUp. The 2d6 is nice, but being forced to Infiltrate them isn't. The 10 Stealers are there primarily to provide cover saves for the Hybrids at deployment, and act as an annoyance. The army is full of Genestealers, so I don't mind if these ones make it into combat or don't.

Still not sure I like the idea of 10-man squads to be honest. They can soak Novas better than 5-mans, but they're a bit all-or-nothing. With 5-mans you can land a couple of 6s on every Ambush, and even if that's not enough to throw a big assault at someone it's usually enough to take out a backfield unit or a vehicle or something. Feels like you'd lose that by taking 10-mans; you'd spend a lot more time sitting around setting up and not assaulting anything.

Had a rethink and came up with this instead:

Insurrection
- Patriarch, ML2, Familiar
-- Doting Throng
--- Magus, ML2, Crouchling
--- 3x10 Neophytes
-- Doting Throng
--- 3x10 Neophytes
--Brood Cycle
--- Iconward
--- 5 Purestrains
--- 5 Claw-Morphs
--- 2x10 Neophytes
--- 3x5 Acolytes
-- SubUp
--- 3x5 Claw-Morphs
--- 2x5 Acolytes
-- 2x Mutants
--- 2x 5 Claw-Morphs

CAD 1:
-- 2x Patriarch, ML2
-- 2x5 Acolytes

CAD 2:
-- Patriarch, ML2
-- Magus, ML2
-- 10 Neophytes
-- 5 Acolytes

Self explanatory really. 90 Neophytes to clog up the field, eat Novas, chase FMCs, etc., plus 75 other dudes and 7 HQs (with 12WC) to do the actual work.

I think I would like the amount of neophytes but I would lose one doting throng and put these neophytes in the CAD's. Then you could use these acolytes to form a new subup with your cult mutants metamorphs. Yes, I also don't like the forced cult ambush deployment but only turbo boosting units or FMC with summoning should be problem and against them you could infiltrate you're doting throng neophytes and block them 6 inch from your subup units.Half the time its better for GSC to deploy and go into the shadows and start playing the second turn so the subup are still a good addition.

I've also been looking at alysian drop troops allies but I also don't see a lot of benefits. Nothing that neophytes or rending can not do better.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why is being forced to infiltrate/ambush with the SubUp an issue? They can still go wherever you need them to. I guess things might get a little screwy if your opponent also had a decent amount of infiltrators, but I don't see the problem otherwise.

I've always thought Neophytes were underrated. I haven't ever used them purely as board control props (i.e., without special/heavy weapons), but that seems viable and intensely annoying for most opponents. It's worth a try, for sure.

Benlisted wrote:
All true, but 6pt bodies with a 12" move is something cult don't have. And cult can easily handle the stuff that would give him problems - get a patriarch with free LoS into the challenge and let the flyrant do work.

Very good points. A Jump unit with a footprint that big would come in very handy indeed. They're also packing bolt pistols iirc, which aren't fantastic, but if you're firing 20+ at once I imagine they'd do a job.

shogun wrote:
I think I would like the amount of neophytes but I would lose one doting throng and put these neophytes in the CAD's. Then you could use these acolytes to form a new subup with your cult mutants metamorphs. Yes, I also don't like the forced cult ambush deployment but only turbo boosting units or FMC with summoning should be problem and against them you could infiltrate you're doting throng neophytes and block them 6 inch from your subup units.Half the time its better for GSC to deploy and go into the shadows and start playing the second turn so the subup are still a good addition.

That takes me from 80 Infiltrating Neophytes to 50. That could work, to be honest. 50 seems like enough dudes to be plonking in midfield.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why is being forced to infiltrate/ambush with the SubUp an issue? They can still go wherever you need them to. I guess things might get a little screwy if your opponent also had a decent amount of infiltrators, but I don't see the problem otherwise.

It's a situational annoyance rather than a crippling flaw, but it's something I could live without. SubUps are my primary source of Claw-Morphs at the moment, which means I have no choice but to expose them to shooting or trapping from turn one. Sure, you can put them in a corner, but if some smartass drops a Pod on top of them or Scouts a White Scars Gladius on top of you they can end up stuck on the table, where they can be chewed up handily.

Keeping them off-deck isn't always the best idea - in fact it's very rarely a good idea to reserve anything from the Insurrection - but I want the option.

I've always thought Neophytes were underrated. I haven't ever used them purely as board control props (i.e., without special/heavy weapons), but that seems viable and intensely annoying for most opponents. It's worth a try, for sure.

Really? I can't bring myself to use them as anything other than chaff. I'm used to Wolves and Sisters so BS3 shooting makes me very angry. Big blobs with Grenade launchers/ Webbers and Seismics are neat Summoning options but I'd never pay the points for those weapons.

 BBAP wrote:

shogun wrote:
I think I would like the amount of neophytes but I would lose one doting throng and put these neophytes in the CAD's. Then you could use these acolytes to form a new subup with your cult mutants metamorphs. Yes, I also don't like the forced cult ambush deployment but only turbo boosting units or FMC with summoning should be problem and against them you could infiltrate you're doting throng neophytes and block them 6 inch from your subup units.Half the time its better for GSC to deploy and go into the shadows and start playing the second turn so the subup are still a good addition.

That takes me from 80 Infiltrating Neophytes to 50. That could work, to be honest. 50 seems like enough dudes to be plonking in midfield.

Yea, but you also get 3x5 acolytes with 2xd6 cult ambush and the 2x5 metamorph's get an extra dice. Don't forget that the 'mutants' and 'doting throng' got no first turn shrouded. Also nice to have 40 neophytes with objective secured. and 50 neophytes with infiltrate gives you enough units for your patriarch's to join.

Really? I can't bring myself to use them as anything other than chaff. I'm used to Wolves and Sisters so BS3 shooting makes me very angry. Big blobs with Grenade launchers/ Webbers and Seismics are neat Summoning options but I'd never pay the points for those weapons.

Mining lasers: accept no substitute! Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I find myself jamming up close combat space pretty frequently. It's nice to have some potent firepower to at least threaten things with - plinking wounds off MCs here and there or maybe popping a transport to assault the juicy insides. Yeah, they're no Tau, but any unit throwing out a couple S9 AP2 shots is at least on the threat radar.

MilkmanAl wrote:

Really? I can't bring myself to use them as anything other than chaff. I'm used to Wolves and Sisters so BS3 shooting makes me very angry. Big blobs with Grenade launchers/ Webbers and Seismics are neat Summoning options but I'd never pay the points for those weapons.

Mining lasers: accept no substitute! Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I find myself jamming up close combat space pretty frequently. It's nice to have some potent firepower to at least threaten things with - plinking wounds off MCs here and there or maybe popping a transport to assault the juicy insides. Yeah, they're no Tau, but any unit throwing out a couple S9 AP2 shots is at least on the threat radar.

I really just can't see the appeal of heavy weapons as much as I want to. Having to snapshoot them after ambushing just kills them for me. The one I am considering is autocannon teams, just cos they're so cheap - 10pts for 2 str7ap4 shots vs 30pts for 2 str9ap2 with far shorter range. Them and GLs gives you 4 high str shots per squad for 20pts, which isn't awful.

Has anyone seen the highest placing cult list from LVO? Used pretty much 50:50 cult and guard armoured company, using BS4 vanquishers with coaxial stubbers to twinlink the main gun, and beast hunter shells (an instant death ap2 small blast iirc). If you really want armour dealt with or are thinking of taking cult russes, they may well be a better option!

 BBAP wrote:

Benlisted wrote:
All true, but 6pt bodies with a 12" move is something cult don't have. And cult can easily handle the stuff that would give him problems - get a patriarch with free LoS into the challenge and let the flyrant do work.

Very good points. A Jump unit with a footprint that big would come in very handy indeed. They're also packing bolt pistols iirc, which aren't fantastic, but if you're firing 20+ at once I imagine they'd do a job.

Are we implying that the Patriarch can join the Skytyrant's unit in the first place? The formation allows the MC to be attached to the gargs, but since it's still a MC, the patriarch still doesn't have permission to join. Also - they aren't Battle Brothers, so I don't even know why I'm asking. haha. I love the idea of this, especially if you could Invis this unit. Wow - GW dropped the ball with that Battle Brother call with Nids and GSC. They could had a chance to make them slightly competitive. XD

Saythings wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Benlisted wrote:
All true, but 6pt bodies with a 12" move is something cult don't have. And cult can easily handle the stuff that would give him problems - get a patriarch with free LoS into the challenge and let the flyrant do work.

Very good points. A Jump unit with a footprint that big would come in very handy indeed. They're also packing bolt pistols iirc, which aren't fantastic, but if you're firing 20+ at once I imagine they'd do a job.

Are we implying that the Patriarch can join the Skytyrant's unit in the first place? The formation allows the MC to be attached to the gargs, but since it's still a MC, the patriarch still doesn't have permission to join. Also - they aren't Battle Brothers, so I don't even know why I'm asking. haha. I love the idea of this, especially if you could Invis this unit. Wow - GW dropped the ball with that Battle Brother call with Nids and GSC. They could had a chance to make them slightly competitive. XD

Nah, just that cos cult is so mobile and the skytyrant brood so large, you can easily get a patriarch into a problem combat to soak a challenge. And yeah, it was profoundly disappointing but that's the way it goes - at least cult are good in and of themselves!

As for lists, my drafted 1850 is something like this:

Cult Insurrection detachment:

Brood cycle
3x5 acolytes
5 metas (whips)
5 purestrains
10 neophytes w shotguns
20 neophytes w autoguns
Iconward

Lords of the cult
Lvl2 Patriarch
Lvl2 Magos w crouchling

Sub uprising
2x5 acolytes
3x5 metas (claws)

Sub uprising
2x5 acolytes
3x5 metas (claws)

Sub uprising
2x5 acolytes
2x5 metas (claws)
1x10 metas w icon (claws)
Primus


CAD
Lvl2 Patriarch
Lvl2 Magos
2x10 neophytes w autoguns and AC
Aegis w comms



Basically, maxed out cult ambush rolls. This list gets 40 rolls on the ambush table, so statistically should expect 6-7 6s if everything ambushes. Intent is that the two patriarchs go with the insurrection neophytes, warlord with the 20 man squad for more wounds, and the other in the shotguns for potential melee - Magi go in the neophytes in the CAD who want to sit back much more. Aegis seems mandatory with so many uprising models forced to start on the board, and neophytes can provide a screen if the enemy has things like jetbikes that can prvent rtts.

Also easy enough to swap an uprising for another CAD with 2x magos and 20 neophytes if you prefer more mastery levels and more obsec.

shogun wrote:

Saythings wrote: In the FAQ, didn't they state you have to roll for each GSC unit one at a time, deploy, then roll the next GSU unit? If this is the case, you have no idea how many 6's you are going to roll by the end of your deployment. AKA - you might not ever know how many 6s you'll get Turn1 (deployment) or Turn2 & on.

A GSC army should not be fixated on the '6' results. First turn GSC army is all about getting close with cult ambush deployment and having shrouded/stealth when facing the enemies first turn. Then the second turn everybody can assault. But you really have to calculate what happens if the seize. If the enemy begins then you have to face two rounds of shooting. If this means that you can take the objectives for two turns and it really helps than it could be worth it.

BBAP wrote: Nids don't really do anything GSC can't do better, and the stuff that does add something, like Flyrants, is sickeningly expensive. 250pts seems like a massive investment for 4 T6 wounds to me, even if they are only hit on a 6+.

I think the best way to do GSC allies is to run the AM/ Nids as your primary and throw in a cut-down Insurrection as Allies.

I think that Nids could be a nice addition. something like;

deathleaper
sporebomb
sporebomb
mawloc
mawloc
mawloc

But then you would have a second turn army that comes out of (ongoing) reserves.

Not only that but your Cult Insurrection detachment means those mawlocs are arriving on a 4+ which kind of blows.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Not only that but your Cult Insurrection detachment means those mawlocs are arriving on a 4+ which kind of blows.

Thankfully not.
'An Uprising Generations in the Making' affects 'your opponent'. Not enemy units. So allies get to arrive normally.

It's also mentioned in the FAQ.

Q: Does the An Uprising Generations in the Making rule affect
Allies of Convenience?
A: No – they gain neither the benefit of being part of the
Genestealer Cult force, nor the penalty your opponent’s
Reserve Rolls will suffer.

IVIOOSE wrote:
Im curious to know what everyone's GSC army consists of. i think i have my list close to finalized for this years ITC format events. as always though need to see what changes they will make and what changes events will make. kind of a wall of text.

what do your lists look like?

.....

I'am really starting to like the Psykana division.

When I'am losing with my GSC army it goes like this:

Scenario 1: First turn in their face. It's a big bloody fight but the GSC are getting all the mealstrom points but at turn 3 the balance shifts and the army is starting to crumble. After that the enemy got all the time to claim mealstrom from that point on and end their game with having most objectives.

Scenario 2: Go into the shadows first turn and start playing the second turn. Almost always the best way to do it, but that also means that the enemy is totally free to claim mealstrom objectives in the first two turns. If the GSC want a 20-0 victory than the got a lot of work to do from that point on.

My army got 4 psykers with 9 powers and summoning is a very big deal. With 4 psykers I get 8+d6 warp charge and most times it all goes into summoning or mind control. But if I don't get summoning then I'am really missing something against the big lists. And thats either a bit of punch or more bodies.

With the Psykana division I got the summoning certainty and a lot more dice. I can keep the psykers behind my defence line and start summoning at a flank. If my GSC-psykers got no summoning than I can also use more dice for other stuff like mind control. I would then focus my summoning on fast units like seekers, screamers, bloodthirsters or LOC's.

First round psychic phase would look like this:

6 warpcharge GSC-psykers + 7 warpcharge from the Psykana division + d6 = about an average 16 warp charge. I could spend 5 warpcharge on every psyker unit and create 3x5 seekers in the first turn. Thats a nice addition and a unit that can help out the GSC very fast with 6+d6 run move. Yes, I could get 35 acolytes for this amount of points put the daemons are a little more flexible with having the right tools at the right time. If my Psykana division can summon two turns then the already got their points back and more. The increase in warpdice also helps against daemons.

If I want to go into the shadows first turn and fear a lot of (indirect)shooting then I'am going to keep my psykers in reserve and let them walk on the table behind my defence line with a reroll from my comm relay.

I think I'am going for this list and start testing:

Combined arms detachment
115 patriarch, lvl 2(warlord)
60 x10 neophytes+ 2x flamers
60 x10 neophytes+ 2x flamers
70 defence line + comm relay

Cult insurrection detachment

Lord of the cult
115 patriarch, lvl 2

Lord of the cult
85 magus, lvl 2, crouchling

Brood Cycle
65 iconward
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
60 x10 neophytes, shotguns + 2x flamers
60 x10 neophytes, shotguns + 2x flamers
55 x5 metomorphs x5 claws
70 x5 genestealers

Subterranean assault formation #1
80 x10 acolytes
80 x10 acolytes
110 x10 metamorphs, x10 claw,
110 x10 metamorphs, x10 claw,

Subterranean assault formation #2
80 x10 acolytes
40 x5 acolytes
55 x5 metomorphs, x5 claw
55 x5 metomorphs, x5 claw

Psykana Division
50 primaris psyker
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
60 x5 wyrdvane psykers
25 commisar
25 commisar
25 commisar

Total 1850