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 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Verviedi wrote:
Can we also have a Heavy Burst Cannon buff? I'd say Heavy 15 on the Nova mode, with Gets Hot! removed is reasonable. In fact, drop the Gets Hot! on the nova mode of the IA. It is nonsensical to take 2 seperate tests to fire 1 gun.

Yeah...no. If you wanted, say, a ROF boost with no concurrent stat boost? Probably acceptable without "Gets Hot!". But that's not what you get by doing the Nova mode.

Can you elaborate what you mean just a little bit here?

That if you wanted to simply go to a higher ROF? That'd be acceptable without the "Gets Hot" penalty. But that's not what you do.

The for the HBC, the base rate is heavy 8, there is not overcharge,

Nobody said anything about Overcharge. Not sure why you're even bringing it up beyond trying to throw something in that is completely irrelevant to the statement made.

the nova charge (so 1/3rd chance of fail) and gets hot (so 1/6th chance of failed shot and/or wound) to get heavy 12 rending, same base S and AP. though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack. So increasing the number of shots is a big part of why you do it.

You have a 2/3rd chance to successfully Nova Charge and a Heavy 12 S6 AP4 with 36" and Rending at BS3 base with the ability to be boosted up by Markerlights.

"Gets Hot" is a joke penalty for the HBC, even with 12 shots at BS3.

though statistically unlikely, you can kill yourself with your own shooting attack, and the principal of that is annoying.

Yeah...I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. The Leman Russ Executioner is a tank built around a massive Plasma Cannon, which fluffwise, has always had it mentioned that it has an advanced cooling system because of that fact.

It can kill itself with "Gets Hot" rolls too. But it doesn't get to ever make saves because it's a vehicle.

Please stop breaking down my statements line by line, it makes it crazy long and annoying to read through.. The reference to no overcharge is for other people reading unfamiliar with the non-Ion Accelerator.

And yes marker lights are a thing, but 1s still get hot.

And I agree, the LR-Executioner should not be able to gets hot as its a dedicated plasma tossing platform. That I've seen them blow themselves up in 1 shooting phase is preposterous. But that's a different thread. No multi-wound/HP unit should be able to kill itself with its own weapon. Single wound models like pathfinders or devastators i can see, because the weapon "melted down" to being useless at best, and maybe killed the unit.

you don't need to state a lack of sympathy, you've shown that plenty so far. which is why i struggle to take anything you say with any value, because its not trying to understand where Tau players are coming from, you just want to destroy a unit that people paid quite a lot of money for, spent a great deal of time modeling and painting. It can become worse, but you don't make suggestions that make it remotely acceptable. It can still be a good unit when its done, worse than before, but still good.

Plasma russ main gun does not get hot. Do not give it plasma sponsons - hull laz cannon and done. Give it sponson heavy bolters or MM if you must give it something.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Please stop breaking down my statements line by line, it makes it crazy long and annoying to read through.. The reference to no overcharge is for other people reading unfamiliar with the non-Ion Accelerator.

Yeah, no. I won't cease breaking down statements line by line. It really isn't any longer than a simple quotation. I do this for a reason: It makes it easier for me to reply to individual arguments and it lets me have a frame of reference to consult when someone like you tries to make arguments out of context.

And yes marker lights are a thing, but 1s still get hot.

1s still get hot, but what does reaching BS 6 or higher allow you to do?

Reroll missed To Hit rolls.

And I agree, the LR-Executioner should not be able to gets hot as its a dedicated plasma tossing platform. That I've seen them blow themselves up in 1 shooting phase is preposterous. But that's a different thread. No multi-wound/HP unit should be able to kill itself with its own weapon. Single wound models like pathfinders or devastators i can see, because the weapon "melted down" to being useless at best, and maybe killed the unit.

If you're so concerned about it "melting down", then don't use the primary weapon when Nova Charging?

It does have secondary weapons after all.

In any regards, if people want the HBC to be viable or lose "Gets Hot" when Nova'd? I'd be cool with that. Provided it loses Rending and doesn't get a crazy amount of shots.

you don't need to state a lack of sympathy, you've shown that plenty so far. which is why i struggle to take anything you say with any value, because its not trying to understand where Tau players are coming from, you just want to destroy a unit that people paid quite a lot of money for, spent a great deal of time modeling and painting.

And I have a hard time taking anything you say with value when you spout crap like "Fearless Guard blobs with Hymns" being an effective counter to Tau shooting.

It can become worse, but you don't make suggestions that make it remotely acceptable. It can still be a good unit when its done, worse than before, but still good.

I don't care if Tau players think it's "remotely acceptable". I don't care if you feel like your model isn't worth the money you paid for it. I have an Armored Company, nobody consulted me when they nerfed tanks into the ground.

Riptides are too powerful. End of story. They need a drastic nerfing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
I'm also interested as to how you would think that stimulant injectors would make something less accurate in shooting, somehow making the sophisticated targeting equipment of the Riptide cease to function.

Stimulant Injectors aren't hooked into the Riptide's targeting equipment, are they?

There's still a pilot in the Riptide controlling the Riptide. It doesn't matter how awesome the targeting equipment is if the pilot's effectively having a seizure from having a chemical cocktail jacked into his system and pressing the wrong buttons.

Imperial Guard being a poorly written codex that is poorly written does not excuse a vendetta against every book that was written better than it.

Nor does Tau being a poorly written codex justify them never nerfing units within the book.

Riptides are way too good for what they are. The same thing goes for other things in other books, but we're not talking about them in this thread. Maybe if Tau players would stop getting so defensive about any proposed changes that aren't buffs for the Riptide we could have productive conversations.

*sigh*.. i guess we are still in infinite markerlight land...

Individual troops wield a s7/8 weapon with gets hot has insufficient cooling systems to be "man portable" and reliable. MC's and tanks should.

As stated pages ago, a conscript blob with 50 guardsmen is 150 poitns, and a 25 point non-hq HQ priest gives zealot, which in part automatically passes LD tests life fear, morale etc.. so functionally fearless if not with exactly that USR. Battle hymns are only when locked in combat with LD check, you are correct, I was wrong on that point.

No one is arguing vehicles should be worse, we agree they should be better, that horse is beyond dead and beaten. MOVE ON. and armor 14 in particular is not pointless as say 10 through 12.

Yes, Riptides are too good for what they are, hence the thread, hence the discussion. If you want to take a modern news network approach of complaining loudly, but not offering sincere suggestions that both parties agree is progress, then this is not that thread. You might not get all you want, I already am not getting all I want, but if its all or nothing for you, then you aren't discussing you are demanding. As this is a general discussion, not general demands, you can make a new proposed rules thread titled "Time to finally kill the riptide."

 pumaman1 wrote:

*sigh*.. i guess we are still in infinite markerlight land...

You're BS3 to start with. Are you really trying to suggest that it is hard to get 3 points of BS, minimum, to reach the reroll threshold?
Being part of a Coordinated Firepower via the Hunter Cadre can grant you +1 BS, being part of a Fire Team of 3 Riptides can grant you another +1 BS. That's +2/3 minimum for the reroll threshold--and in the case of Coordinated Firepower, granting shared Markerlights for maximum effectiveness.

Individual troops wield a s7/8 weapon with gets hot has insufficient cooling systems to be "man portable" and reliable. MC's and tanks should

Now, I don't think it strictly true that "Gets Hot" should never make an appearance on vehicles or MCs. I do think in the case of the HBC and EPE? That "Gets Hot" shouldn't be there.

As stated pages ago, a conscript blob with 50 guardsmen is 150 poitns, and a 25 point non-hq HQ priest gives zealot, which in part automatically passes LD tests life fear, morale etc.. so functionally fearless if not with exactly that USR. Battle hymns are only when locked in combat with LD check, you are correct, I was wrong on that point.

A Conscript Blob with 50 Guardsmen is more than 150 points in actuality. You have to take a Guard Platoon, which mandates 2 50 man Guard Squads and a Platoon Command Squad as well to even take a Conscript Platoon.

No one is arguing vehicles should be worse, we agree they should be better, that horse is beyond dead and beaten. MOVE ON. and armor 14 in particular is not pointless as say 10 through 12.

Unfortunately for you, it is entirely relevant to the discussion at hand when people like yourself think any actual change to the Riptide is going to make them useless or whatever nonsense.

Yes, Riptides are too good for what they are, hence the thread, hence the discussion. If you want to take a modern news network approach of complaining loudly, but not offering sincere suggestions that both parties agree is progress, then this is not that thread. You might not get all you want, I already am not getting all I want, but if its all or nothing for you, then you aren't discussing you are demanding. As this is a general discussion, not general demands, you can make a new proposed rules thread titled "Time to finally kill the riptide."

This is a discussion, despite what you seem to be thinking. You just get the more aggressive replies because your posts have been nonsense.

Yes, because there are more than 1 target i intend to shoot at in a turn, my marker lights are spread out to various targets. And if I go 2nd, I should have few to none left alive, as they are on fragile platforms.

You need to bring 3 riptides in a single unit to get the fire team rule, where they are not automatically a riptide wing. that does mean 9 riptides could be a maxed out riptide wing.

And no, you take 1 platoon command squad and 2 10 man squads of basic infantry, you don't need to take max number of max squads, just the minimum to be a platoon. If you are running the Emperors Shield (huh funny, sheild) Infantry Company, then yes you must max the squads, but not in a CAD.
Those other squads are off taking points and scoring, not bubble wrapping your expensive vehicles. If you don't take infantry as AM, you are gonna have a bad time.

And aggression is not a substitution for human decency or argument. The Fox News method of debate, he who shouts loudest wins, is not productive.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Yes, because there are more than 1 target i intend to shoot at in a turn, my marker lights are spread out to various targets. And if I go 2nd, I should have few to none left alive, as they are on fragile platforms.

They can be on as fragile platforms as you want to pretend, Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Additionally, there is no basic weapon available which outranges a Markerlight and assuming you're not doing huge missteps like putting your Pathfinders or Marker Drones out in the open or something of that nature? You'll still have Markerlights available, and as mentioned, being part of a Hunter Cadre detachment means that you get the most effective usage out of those Markerlight Counters.

You need to bring 3 riptides in a single unit to get the fire team rule, where they are not automatically a riptide wing. that does mean 9 riptides could be a maxed out riptide wing.

"Being part of a Fire Team of 3 Riptides" should have pretty obviously clarified that is the case.

And no, you take 1 platoon command squad and 2 10 man squads of basic infantry, you don't need to take max number of max squads, just the minimum to be a platoon.

It should have been obvious that I meant "50 point Guard Squads", but just so we're clear? That's what was meant to be posted, as there is no way to have "2 50 man Guard Squads" in a single Infantry Platoon.

If you are running the Emperors Shield (huh funny, shield) Infantry Company, then yes you must max the squads, but not in a CAD.
Those other squads are off taking points and scoring, not bubble wrapping your expensive vehicles. If you don't take infantry as AM, you are gonna have a bad time.

And if you want to pretend that AM infantry are giving you such a hard time as Tau, you're going to get called on your silliness.

And aggression is not a substitution for human decency or argument. The Fox News method of debate, he who shouts loudest wins, is not productive.

Aggressive replies != lack of coherent argument or human decency. You're more than welcome to assume that this is me 'shouting loudest', but quite frankly?

You've demonstrated a blatantly obvious lack of knowledge about things that you're trying to counterpoint in defending your precious Riptide. You're a great example of why many people dislike Tau not strictly for the armies but for the players utilizing them.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Okay wise guy? how many points do we pay for our markerlights?

 Kanluwen wrote:
He made it pretty clear on his edit.

The edit was to add what is below

Marker Drones, BS2, 12-14 points each (meaning 36-42 points for each marker token)
Pathfinder Markerlight, BS3, 11 points (meaning 22 points per)
Skyray Networked Markerlight, 2 per platform, BS4, 115 pts (meaning ~77 points per)
Firewarrior Shas'ui, 65 points for a minimum squad, 1 shot at BS3. (meaning 90 points per token)

more?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Plasma russ main gun does not get hot. Do not give it plasma sponsons - hull laz cannon and done. Give it sponson heavy bolters or MM if you must give it something.

Adolf Hitler: The Executioner main cannon does not get hot, give it sponson heavy bolters or MM everything will be alright.
Hans Krebs: Mein Fuhrer... Steiner...
Alfred Jodl: Steiner nerfed the Leman Russ Executioner. It made marine players butthurt so he gave the Executioner Plasma Cannon "gets hot". People even glued those plasma sponson. Is kinda sad.
Adolf Hitler: *Long rant on sponsons*

We don't need to pretend they are fragile, they are as fragile as guardsmen, who have heavy laser designators, but 11 points per, or as fragile as marine scouts, but literally 1/2 the BS at BS2 at 12-14 points per. You can ignore them at your own peril, but that doesn't question my ability or competency.

And I've demonstrated on multiple occasions that I am willing to come to the table, reducing armor, removing FNP, switching the ion weapon with the Hammerhead to compel bringing other weaker platforms that bring heavy firepower. I've discussed played methods that actively counter riptides/other non-riptide threats you've brought up, not even theory crafting but played and repeated methods. That makes me a terrible person to discuss with, to play against. That I encourage an opponent to utilize tools at their disposal, or target priority. You can blast away at the riptide all game, if you leave me with markerlight sources, everything else is going to stay effective.

Compromise man, compromise. You're an adult. Meet me 1/2 way.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Okay wise guy? how many points do we pay for our markerlights?
Marker Drones, BS2, 12-14 points each (meaning 36-42 points for each marker token)

14 points to add additional Gun Drones to a Drone Squadron. How many points is it to turn them into Marker Drones?
Free.

Pathfinder Markerlight, BS3, 11 points (meaning 22 points per)

Per what? 22 points per usage of Scouring? 22 points per 2 points of Ballistic Skill via Pinpoint? 22 points per 2 Seeker Missile launches?

Pathfinders are 11 points to add more to a Pathfinder Team(which is 44 points for 4 with the option to add 6 more at 11 points each for a grand total of 110 points before adding in Drones) and come with Markerlights as standard. The only time they do not have Markerlights is when you pay points to take Ion Rifles or Rail Rifles.

Skyray Networked Markerlight, 2 per platform, BS4, 115 pts (meaning ~77 points per)

Again, ~77 points per what? Scour? 2 points of BS? 2 Seeker Missiles?

The Networked Markerlights cost you nothing.

Firewarrior Shas'ui, 65 points for a minimum squad, 1 shot at BS3. (meaning 90 points per token)
more?

So you meant per token, eh?

Let's put it like this then:
You have 3 options where you pay nothing for a BS weapon in large quantities that does not require you to roll To Wound. Said BS weapon instead simply makes it so that follow-on attacks gain benefits.

What actual downside is there for you missing your shots with Markerlights? Your stuff does not lose its base accuracy, nor does it lose its base efficacy. It simply goes back to its standard form.

I would give the whole "Markerlights have a downside to them!" argument more credibility if there were an actual penalty like they tacked into Guard Orders, where one character failing spectacularly equates to the whole damn Orders system breaking.

The downside to missing shots with markerlights is the same downside to missing a shot with any weapon. The intended effect does not happen.

Or are you also going to argue that psychic powers are unfair because if you fail to manifest a power which grants twin-linked then the guns you were trying to twin-link can still shoot at their standard ability?
A psyker doesn't even need LOS to the target that the buffed unit is shooting at. Markerlights require that the target unit is in LOS of the marking unit and then, unless all you are firing is SMS or Seeker missiles, the unit which is actually doing the damaging shooting.

He made it pretty clear on the first entry that he was calculating the points per marker token.

Kanluwen, I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
How many points is a Librarian? By your argument, it should cost nothing, yes? At that point, why don't you just sigmarize 40k? then everyone can bring what they want.

 pumaman1 wrote:


We don't need to pretend they are fragile, they are as fragile as guardsmen, who have heavy laser designators, but 11 points per, or as fragile as marine scouts, but literally 1/2 the BS at BS2 at 12-14 points per. You can ignore them at your own peril, but that doesn't question my ability or competency.

BS2 with the ability to fire and move, thanks to being Jet Pack Infantry.
And 11 points with Scout and the ability to fire as part of a supporting Overwatch.

And I've demonstrated on multiple occasions that I am willing to come to the table, reducing armor,

Which would have been acceptable prior to the introduction of Grav...but now?

Nope. Too many Tau players piss and moan about Grav making such short work of their Riptides to the point of saying that the Riptide "needs to have a 3+ save in order to survive" that this argument holds no water anymore.

removing FNP,

The FNP in and of itself is not the issue. Pretending that you offering to "remove FNP" is some kind of olive branch is silly, as has been evidenced by the multiple instances where you've just ignored the point brought up.
FNP by itself is not the issue. The issue is the ridiculously low price that something like the Riptide pays for it. The issue is that a Riptide has a naturally high durability which needs to be addressed, regardless of the state of it having a FNP or not.

switching the ion weapon with the Hammerhead to compel bringing other weaker platforms that bring heavy firepower.

Which isn't a bad idea, and I've simply not commented on it as I don't feel that simply moving something from one platform to another is an amenable option. If the IA is a problem on the Riptide, it can potentially be a problem on the Hammerhead as well.

I've discussed played methods that actively counter riptides/other non-riptide threats you've brought up, not even theory crafting but played and repeated methods. That makes me a terrible person to discuss with, to play against.

But y'see, that's the rub. Nothing in my statement was theory crafting. Even discounting the Priest thing, I pointed out that there is a much higher threshold for other armies to remotely negate a model like the Riptide.

That I encourage an opponent to utilize tools at their disposal, or target priority. You can blast away at the riptide all game, if you leave me with markerlight sources, everything else is going to stay effective.

And this is one of the biggest complaints that has been brought up time and time again with the Riptide. Tau players refer to it as their "Distraction Carnifex". The Distraction Carnifex was a thing because it simply looked big and scary, its efficacy was in that it held people's attention and didn't do much else.

The Riptide isn't a "Distraction Carnifex". It's a legitimate threat, priced at "Distraction Carnifex" price points.

Compromise man, compromise. You're an adult. Meet me 1/2 way.

Compromise is admitting that the Riptide needs to be torn down and built back up from there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Okay wise guy? how many points do we pay for our markerlights?
Marker Drones, BS2, 12-14 points each (meaning 36-42 points for each marker token)

14 points to add additional Gun Drones to a Drone Squadron. How many points is it to turn them into Marker Drones?
Free.
And the loss of the gun drone. NOT FREE

Pathfinder Markerlight, BS3, 11 points (meaning 22 points per)

Per what? 22 points per usage of Scouring? 22 points per 2 points of Ballistic Skill via Pinpoint? 22 points per 2 Seeker Missile launches?
What is the Seeker missile on? you are aware that if we use the seeker missile off of a platform, then said platform CANNOT target anything else?
Pathfinders are 11 points to add more to a Pathfinder Team(which is 44 points for 4 with the option to add 6 more at 11 points each for a grand total of 110 points before adding in Drones) and come with Markerlights as standard. The only time they do not have Markerlights is when you pay points to take Ion Rifles or Rail Rifles.

Skyray Networked Markerlight, 2 per platform, BS4, 115 pts (meaning ~77 points per)

Again, ~77 points per what? Scour? 2 points of BS? 2 Seeker Missiles?

The Networked Markerlights cost you nothing.
Except the cost of the platform that they come on.

Firewarrior Shas'ui, 65 points for a minimum squad, 1 shot at BS3. (meaning 90 points per token)
more?

So you meant per token, eh?

Let's put it like this then:
You have 3 options where you pay nothing for a BS weapon in large quantities that does not require you to roll To Wound. Said BS weapon instead simply makes it so that follow-on attacks gain benefits.

What actual downside is there for you missing your shots with Markerlights? Your stuff does not lose its base accuracy, nor does it lose its base efficacy. It simply goes back to its standard form.

I would give the whole "Markerlights have a downside to them!" argument more credibility if there were an actual penalty like they tacked into Guard Orders, where one character failing spectacularly equates to the whole damn Orders system breaking.

the downside to taking markerlights is the same as taking psyker support in other armies. They are support pieces! by taking them, you are taking fewer actual you know GUNS, but the ones that you do take hit harder!

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The downside to missing shots with markerlights is the same downside to missing a shot with any weapon. The intended effect does not happen.

Or are you also going to argue that psychic powers are unfair because if you fail to manifest a power which grants twin-linked then the guns you were trying to twin-link can still shoot at their standard ability?

He made it pretty clear on the first entry that he was calculating the points per marker token.

He made it pretty clear on his edit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:
Kanluwen, I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
How many points is a Librarian? By your argument, it should cost nothing, yes? At that point, why don't you just sigmarize 40k? then everyone can bring what they want.

How many points is it to upgrade a Librarian's efficacy?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The downside to missing shots with markerlights is the same downside to missing a shot with any weapon. The intended effect does not happen.

Or are you also going to argue that psychic powers are unfair because if you fail to manifest a power which grants twin-linked then the guns you were trying to twin-link can still shoot at their standard ability?

He made it pretty clear on the first entry that he was calculating the points per marker token.

He made it pretty clear on his edit.

No, even on the post you quoted, that first line said 36-42 points per markerlight token.

The rest of the entries followed that basis, just cutting off markerlight token from the end because it was plainly obvious what was intended by simply reading what was written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Kanluwen, I sincerely hope that you are trolling.
How many points is a Librarian? By your argument, it should cost nothing, yes? At that point, why don't you just sigmarize 40k? then everyone can bring what they want.

How many points is it to upgrade a Librarian's efficacy?

Free if they cast a buff on themselves.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Markerlights have a 36" range and do not cost as much as Tau players like to pretend they do.

Okay wise guy? how many points do we pay for our markerlights?
Marker Drones, BS2, 12-14 points each (meaning 36-42 points for each marker token)

14 points to add additional Gun Drones to a Drone Squadron. How many points is it to turn them into Marker Drones?
Free.
And the loss of the gun drone. NOT FREE

Pathfinder Markerlight, BS3, 11 points (meaning 22 points per)

Per what? 22 points per usage of Scouring? 22 points per 2 points of Ballistic Skill via Pinpoint? 22 points per 2 Seeker Missile launches?
What is the Seeker missile on? you are aware that if we use the seeker missile off of a platform, then said platform CANNOT target anything else?
Pathfinders are 11 points to add more to a Pathfinder Team(which is 44 points for 4 with the option to add 6 more at 11 points each for a grand total of 110 points before adding in Drones) and come with Markerlights as standard. The only time they do not have Markerlights is when you pay points to take Ion Rifles or Rail Rifles.

Skyray Networked Markerlight, 2 per platform, BS4, 115 pts (meaning ~77 points per)

Again, ~77 points per what? Scour? 2 points of BS? 2 Seeker Missiles?

The Networked Markerlights cost you nothing.
Except the cost of the platform that they come on.

Firewarrior Shas'ui, 65 points for a minimum squad, 1 shot at BS3. (meaning 90 points per token)
more?

So you meant per token, eh?

Let's put it like this then:
You have 3 options where you pay nothing for a BS weapon in large quantities that does not require you to roll To Wound. Said BS weapon instead simply makes it so that follow-on attacks gain benefits.

What actual downside is there for you missing your shots with Markerlights? Your stuff does not lose its base accuracy, nor does it lose its base efficacy. It simply goes back to its standard form.

I would give the whole "Markerlights have a downside to them!" argument more credibility if there were an actual penalty like they tacked into Guard Orders, where one character failing spectacularly equates to the whole damn Orders system breaking.

the downside to taking markerlights is the same as taking psyker support in other armies. They are support pieces! by taking them, you are taking fewer actual you know GUNS, but the ones that you do take hit harder!

Except Psyker support has an actual downside in the form of the Perils of the Warp table, now doesn't it?

Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

 Kanluwen wrote:
How many points is it to upgrade a Librarian's efficacy?

Beats me. I don't have a current MEQ codex. But I seem to recall a ML is 25 pts. AND CHOOSING NOT TO ROLL ON ANOTHER TABLE TO GET PRESCIENCE!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except Psyker support has an actual downside in the form of the Perils of the Warp table, now doesn't it?

Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

The downside to using a markerlight is that the unit shooting the markerlight cannot do any physical damage from its own attack. Which seems to be a downside in my opinion.

Missing with a bolter shot doesn't cause your predator to shoot your marines in the face. A commander failing a FRFSRF order doesn't mean that the Guard squad shoots him.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How many points is it to upgrade a Librarian's efficacy?

Beats me. I don't have a current MEQ codex. But I seem to recall a ML is 25 pts.

A Mastery Level is 25 points, that is correct.

But that, again, is my point. To make a Psyker better costs a meaningful amount of points. Changing a 14 point Gun Drone(which yes, is BS2, but has the capability to be BS3 through a wildly common formation that grants an obscene number of special rules to ALL Drones on the field not just those within the formation) to a Markerlight Drone should have a points cost.

Or there should be a points cost associated with the ability of a unit to actually benefit from Markerlights or a better qualifier as to what weapons can benefit from what Markerlight abilities, etc.

AND CHOOSING NOT TO ROLL ON ANOTHER TABLE TO GET PRESCIENCE!

Which is a whole different can of worms(I'm personally not a fan of the ability to dip into multiple masteries at once; it would be a cool trait for a character but shouldn't be the standard) and something I thoroughly suspect will be altered dramatically come the next edition.

I mean there's definitely a reason we got "Adeptus Astartes Psychic Powers", "Dark Angels Psychic Powers", etc along with "Traitor Astartes Psychic Powers" now during what is supposed to be the purported development cycle/stealth playtesting stage of 8th.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

We are choosing to shoot at you with a unit that we had to pay for, that will cause zero wounds to you. In all but one case (the Networked Markerlight on the Skyray) the unit that shoots at you CANNOT benefit from its own markerlights, and please note that in the formations, Skyrays are not listed as being eligible for CFP for a reason. Tau players have to play a balancing act. If our markerlights are too efficient, if we put a hundred markerlights on a unit, and then wipe the unit, how many of those markerlights do you think would be wasted?

It comes down to my argument of Strategy versus Tactics. Strategy is what you bring with you to the field. Other armies have psykers or debuffing units. Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun. What is the downside of using a markerlight? IT DOESN'T HURT A DAMN THING! an opportunity cost that costs us from bringing more guns. We can absolutely leave them at home, we can mitigate their loss by TLing the weapons on our crisis suits. but do you think for a minute that if we did so, we could reliably expect our opponents to leave their support models at home too? Their CCS, their psykers, their Chapter Masters and Captains? Their Synapse Creatures, their ruins and defensive emplacements?

Oh and tactics, well, tactics are what you decide to do with your forces once they are on the field.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
(which yes, is BS2, but has the capability to be BS3 through a wildly common formation that grants an obscene number of special rules to ALL Drones on the field not just those within the formation) to a Markerlight Drone should have a points cost.

Sorry to say that whoever told you this was cheating. The only thing that gets spread around is the BS buff. The rest of it is restricted to the formation.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except Psyker support has an actual downside in the form of the Perils of the Warp table, now doesn't it?

Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

The downside to using a markerlight is that the unit shooting the markerlight cannot do any physical damage from its own attack. Which seems to be a downside in my opinion.

Missing with a bolter shot doesn't cause your predator to shoot your marines in the face.

A bolter shot also doesn't somehow magically make it so that the Predator is shooting clean through walls, despite not changing the stat values of the weapons being fired by said Predator.

A commander failing a FRFSRF order doesn't mean that the Guard squad shoots him.

Sure, but on a roll of Double 6? That Commander failing to issue "FRFSRF" means no other Orders can be issued, by any officer during your turn.


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 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Once again, what is the actual downside to using a Markerlight to attempt to put a Markerlight Counter on a target?

Your Markerlights don't remove your Cover if you fail to hit a target. They don't cause Seeker Missile hits to strike the unit firing the Markerlights. They don't cause anything beyond no Markerlight Counter from being placed.

If you could not grasp that simple fact, then you really did not understand the point I was making.

We are choosing to shoot at you with a unit that we had to pay for, that will cause zero wounds to you. In all but one case (the Networked Markerlight on the Skyray) the unit that shoots at you CANNOT benefit from its own markerlights, and please note that in the formations, Skyrays are not listed as being eligible for CFP for a reason. Tau players have to play a balancing act. If our markerlights are too efficient, if we put a hundred markerlights on a unit, and then wipe the unit, how many of those markerlights do you think would be wasted?

It comes down to my argument of Strategy versus Tactics. Strategy is what you bring with you to the field. Other armies have psykers or debuffing units. Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun. What is the downside of using a markerlight? IT DOESN'T HURT A DAMN THING! an opportunity cost that costs us from bringing more guns. We can absolutely leave them at home, we can mitigate their loss by TLing the weapons on our crisis suits. but do you think for a minute that if we did so, we could reliably expect our opponents to leave their support models at home too? Their CCS, their psykers, their Chapter Masters and Captains? Their Synapse Creatures, their ruins and defensive emplacements?

Oh and tactics, well, tactics are what you decide to do with your forces once they are on the field.

Once again though, each of those things you've mentioned (barring the Captains, which have no real buff/unique trait like Orbital Strikes that they give)? They have a downside.

Synapse Creatures have a range associated with their usage. Outside of it, Tyranids are subject to Instinctive Behavior.
Command Squads have a range associated with their ability to issue Orders. And if they roll double 6s? They can potentially lock the entire army out of being able to issue Orders.


I cannot and will not buy the argument that there is a serious downside to the inability of a Pathfinder with their 18" Assault 2 weapon to fire. Not when the range on a Markerlight is double the range of their damaging weapon.

The Gun Drone is kinda/sorta a different circumstance as yes they give up offensive capabilities to become a dedicated Markerlight platform...but they also have a benefit that the Pathfinders do not have(at least without using a Tidewall Shieldline) in the form of being Relentless.

 Kanluwen wrote:
(which yes, is BS2, but has the capability to be BS3 through a wildly common formation that grants an obscene number of special rules to ALL Drones on the field not just those within the formation) to a Markerlight Drone should have a points cost.

Sorry to say that whoever told you this was cheating. The only thing that gets spread around is the BS buff. The rest of it is restricted to the formation.

That one was my bad actually, not someone cheating.

I meant to have the "obscene number of special rules" to be after the initial part regarding the BS3. I could edit it, but I won't since we're addressing that here.

The point however remains the same. There is, effectively, no downside to Markerlight Drones as part of a Drone Network.

 Kanluwen wrote:
A bolter shot also doesn't somehow magically make it so that the Predator is shooting clean through walls, despite not changing the stat values of the weapons being fired by said Predator.

A bolter shot, by itself can damage something. A Markerlight cannot. If you don't understand the distinction, that is too bad for you. I'm done arguing the point.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A bolter shot also doesn't somehow magically make it so that the Predator is shooting clean through walls, despite not changing the stat values of the weapons being fired by said Predator.

A bolter shot, by itself can damage something. A Markerlight cannot. If you don't understand the distinction, that is too bad for you. I'm done arguing the point.

A bolter shot, by itself, can damage something. However it has to make two checks in order to do so. You have to roll to hit and then roll to wound.

A Markerlight has to hit. There's no saving against Markerlights. There's no way to avoid a Markerlight, no way to negate it. Be done arguing the point all you want, it still does not change the fact that Markerlights need a dramatic overhaul...much like everything else in the Tau book.

I'm sick of the Tau as much as anyone, but this has gone off the rails a bit.

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A bolter shot also doesn't somehow magically make it so that the Predator is shooting clean through walls, despite not changing the stat values of the weapons being fired by said Predator.

A bolter shot, by itself can damage something. A Markerlight cannot. If you don't understand the distinction, that is too bad for you. I'm done arguing the point.

I'm sorry, what? This is blatantly false. A markerlight can increase damage output on a unit by 16%, raise a missile to SD, or launch a S8 AP3 missile at BS5. A stage of separation between damage and weapon firing does not make a weapon "do no damage".

Hell, if you can't use the elements in your army to take the fragile markerlight platforms out first, I don't know how you ever win games. If you put any thought into writing your list, you will have elements in your army that are able to remove squishy support units by turn 2 at latest.

Scouts are one of the most fragile units in the game. They also can't move and shoot, and are only BS3. Marker drones are only BS2, a squad of 4 will give you a single hit most times. Sure you can add a buffcommander to up their BS, but that's a lot of points again. Skyrays are amazing, but they are still tanks, and I thought we agreed that vehicles suck anyway. Also, every squad of marker units could be another broadside or 2, which could just kill stuff directly.

The tactical difficulty with markerlights is 1) you need a good target, 2) you need enough other units actually benefitting from the effects and 3) you must be careful not to overkill. If I put all my MLs on 5 marines they will probably be really dead, but it is not point efficient. Spreading markerlights around is unreliable because of the low BS of the platforms, often putting too many on some units and not enough on others.
If I use the hunter cadre to make more efficient use of my marker lights, overkilling is even more dangerous, and you end up wasting a large amount of wounds when not being careful.

Maybe you should try playing Tau yourself sometime, you'll see that the army is very hard to play efficiently (if you don't just field a maxed riptide wing), it's always a balancing effort, and small mistakes quickly result in getting wiped in CC.

 carldooley wrote:


We are choosing to shoot at you with a unit that we had to pay for, that will cause zero wounds to you. In all but one case (the Networked Markerlight on the Skyray) the unit that shoots at you CANNOT benefit from its own markerlights, and please note that in the formations, Skyrays are not listed as being eligible for CFP for a reason. Tau players have to play a balancing act. If our markerlights are too efficient, if we put a hundred markerlights on a unit, and then wipe the unit, how many of those markerlights do you think would be wasted?

Well, let us look at it this way: The Markerlight in itself is not directly dealing damage, but the unit firing it would rarely be doing any anyway as they can only output direct damage to 18". However the unit is indirectly putting out damage as that units markerlights are vastly improving the shooting of every other unit within the Tau army. Missiles become S D, other missiles can now fire without LoS, guns can ignore cover and now shoot at BS 5, etc. Markerlights are heinously good.
So, what are the 'downsides'? A single unit that would never be in range of anything anyway will not shoot its out-of-range guns. Boo hoo.
If you ask me, a roll of a '1' to hit should discount all Markerlights in the unit for the turn.

It comes down to my argument of Strategy versus Tactics.

It does, provided you are playing Marines, Tau or Eldar.

Strategy is what you bring with you to the field.

Okay, so by your logic aries like BA and IG have less 'strategy' than Tau.

Other armies have psykers or debuffing units.

Which can go horribly wrong if they fail to cast, losing powers, killing themselves or worse.

Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun.

One less R 18" gun? Boo hoo.

What is the downside of using a markerlight? IT DOESN'T HURT A DAMN THING!

Well, actually it technically does.

We can absolutely leave them at home, we can mitigate their loss by TLing the weapons on our crisis suits

But then you couldnt fire your shots at BS 5 Ignore Cover.

Their CCS,

Waitwhat?! How the hell is a CCS that gives two orders a turn with a maximum range of 12", which require the receiver to pass an LD check, which cannot be stacked, which give few benefits and can be lost on a single roll of a double 6 be compared to a 36" ranged stacking multitool.

their psykers,

Psykers who can blow themselves up?

their Chapter Masters?

One use only barrage

Their Synapse Creatures,

How do these even compare? Without them the player has no control over their army.

their ruins

Aww what, did the nasty enemy dare to place some terrain on your perfectly flat and featureless board, thus forcing you to actually move?

and defensive emplacements?

Yet again, how do these even compare? Besides, your Markerlights remove all benefits from these.

Oh and tactics, well, tactics are what you decide to do with your forces once they are on the field.

So, in the case of Blood Angels and Imperial Guard, you die horribly? Eldar and Vanilla Space Marines have a really good chance, but everyone else is screwed.

Ushtarador wrote:
Hell, if you can't use the elements in your army to take the fragile markerlight platforms out first, I don't know how you ever win games. If you put any thought into writing your list, you will have elements in your army that are able to remove squishy support units by turn 2 at latest.

Scouts are one of the most fragile units in the game. They also can't move and shoot, and are only BS3. Marker drones are only BS2, a squad of 4 will give you a single hit most times. Sure you can add a buffcommander to up their BS, but that's a lot of points again. Skyrays are amazing, but they are still tanks, and I thought we agreed that vehicles suck anyway. Also, every squad of marker units could be another broadside or 2, which could just kill stuff directly.

The tactical difficulty with markerlights is 1) you need a good target, 2) you need enough other units actually benefitting from the effects and 3) you must be careful not to overkill. If I put all my MLs on 5 marines they will probably be really dead, but it is not point efficient. Spreading markerlights around is unreliable because of the low BS of the platforms, often putting too many on some units and not enough on others.
If I use the hunter cadre to make more efficient use of my marker lights, overkilling is even more dangerous, and you end up wasting a large amount of wounds when not being careful.

Maybe you should try playing Tau yourself sometime, you'll see that the army is very hard to play efficiently (if you don't just field a maxed riptide wing), it's always a balancing effort, and small mistakes quickly result in getting wiped in CC.

You have to really mess up badly for most CC lists to get anywhere near you.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Other armies have psykers or debuffing units.

Which can go horribly wrong if they fail to cast, losing powers, killing themselves or worse.

Tau have markerlights, and each markerlight that we bring to the field means one less gun.

One less R 18" gun? Boo hoo.

The point you seem to be missing is that marker lights are a support unit that does actually cost points to put in to your army.
Lots of the arguments against riptides are to do with the markerlight support options they can use: but they are hardly ever compared to a unit from another army using equivalent support - Eg, prescience for most other armies can be easily obtained. Riptides magically seem to have Bs5 ignores cover all the time, yet the opposing units seldom have Endurance or Forewarning.

The "loss of guns" for each markerlight hit is not the loss of a pulse carbine: it's the loss of a crisis suit that you could have taken if you didn't include the markerlight in the first place. For the cost of 4 markerlight hits from gun drones you can almost afford another whole riptide. This isn't a foreign concept in many other games - Warmachine factions like Trolls or Menoth are (were) notorious for "tricking" new players in to over-spending on support without actually putting threats on the table.

To give a riptide bs5 ignores cover, you need 8 pathfinders or 12 gun drones - which is between 40% to 80% of the cost of another riptide. A riptide with bs5 ignores cover isn't 220 points, it's closer to 400.



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Martel732 wrote:


You have to really mess up badly for most CC lists to get anywhere near you.

I think the "CC sucks" meme is pretty overdone at this point. Most of the top armies in the game are built around a solid CC presence. Foot slogging cc dudes aren't great, but most armies can build a viable cavalry/bike/beast combat unit that should reach Tau in combat turn 2.

My friend the Tyranid player even managed to take out my ML's in a few of our games. The even worse IG player who has not won a single game ever took out my ML's. The chaos space marine player took out my ML support.

I don't understand how people can claim they can't do it when I've seen the weakest armies in the game do it.

I did run a casual Tau army though with only one RIptide and lots of Kroot.