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Covenant wrote:
Has anyone actually played a Tau army against a massively deepstriking army, like the new Blood Angels Terminators or Droppods or Grey Knights Paladins with FnP, without a Riptide? If yes: How often? Who won the game?

Please don't get me wrong: I understand, that spamming Riptides and of course the formation itself can be a huge problem. But you are all talking about the Riptide as a single model. Maybe - just maybe - GW wanted the Riptide as this huge aggression and psychological effect? (I know - GW is not able to think )

That's called a "Distraction Carnifex".

The issue is that unlike an actual Distraction Carnifex(a cheaply pointed, big model that looks scarier than it actually is)...the Riptide is a legitimate threat.

As a Blood Angel, CSM and Sisters-player, I know that it is no easy enemy, but untill now, i managed one or two - not easily, but I've managed. And as a Tau player, I have at least two turns each game, where I do not have the 3++ because of bad rolls.

Because of my experience in a casual gaming area - next year, I will play 40K for 20 years - I have that feeling that many of you guys are overreacting as soon as it comes to the Riptide as a single model.

Yawn. Another "gitgud" post, huh?

Sure, maybe there's an element of overreaction...or maybe there's an element of not being a Tau player and understanding that the thing is wildly undercosted pointswise.

Deepstriking against Tau is largely suicide. At least, for BA. Evidently Jancoran can do it.

Martel732 wrote:
Deepstriking against Tau is largely suicide. At least, for BA. Evidently Jancoran can do it.

Did you ever try it with the new codex, or are you still theoryhammering? Just try it with the new terminator formation, 3++ doesn't care much about that EWO. Coordinate them with additional DS elements like Fragiosos for target saturation. At the casual level you are playing at this will work more often than not.

You what doesn't care about 3++? Intercepting HYMP. It's not like the new BA book changed the mechanics of deep striking. Assaulting from DS is a meaningless ability vs Tau, because they shoot you just as much. It's actually meanigful vs Eldar, though.

Someone forgot to tell my opponents that we are casual.

Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.

Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).

 JNAProductions wrote:
Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).

Sorry smash.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).

Which a furiouso gets zero saves against, while a furiouso in return gets 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course this is also assuming it can either walk across the board unmolested or Drop pod in and not get blown apart that same turn. Also The Riptide is Hitting on 5s because of WS5 vs WS2 but Still a 1/3rd chance to hit with a 2/3rd chance to HP strip with a 1/2 chance to do damage on the table.

The Furiouso has 5 attacks hitting on 3s so lets say 4 hits, against T 6 = 3 wounds usually, against a 3++ and a 5+++ that a little less then 1 wound a turn......

So the riptide which is supposed to suck terrible at CC can actually hold its own against a Walker Vehicle that is designed SOLELY for CC. yep, its not under priced at all.

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).

Which a furiouso gets zero saves against, while a furiouso in return gets 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course this is also assuming it can either walk across the board unmolested or Drop pod in and not get blown apart that same turn. Also The Riptide is Hitting on 5s because of WS5 vs WS2 but Still a 1/3rd chance to hit with a 2/3rd chance to HP strip with a 1/2 chance to do damage on the table.

The Furiouso has 5 attacks hitting on 3s so lets say 4 hits, against T 6 = 3 wounds usually, against a 3++ and a 5+++ that a little less then 1 wound a turn......

So the riptide which is supposed to suck terrible at CC can actually hold its own against a Walker Vehicle that is designed SOLELY for CC. yep, its not under priced at all.

while it is in combat it cannot shoot. and more often than not, it will lose combat, have to test, and if it fails it will get swept and destroyed.

 carldooley wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).

Which a furiouso gets zero saves against, while a furiouso in return gets 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course this is also assuming it can either walk across the board unmolested or Drop pod in and not get blown apart that same turn. Also The Riptide is Hitting on 5s because of WS5 vs WS2 but Still a 1/3rd chance to hit with a 2/3rd chance to HP strip with a 1/2 chance to do damage on the table.

The Furiouso has 5 attacks hitting on 3s so lets say 4 hits, against T 6 = 3 wounds usually, against a 3++ and a 5+++ that a little less then 1 wound a turn......

So the riptide which is supposed to suck terrible at CC can actually hold its own against a Walker Vehicle that is designed SOLELY for CC. yep, its not under priced at all.

while it is in combat it cannot shoot. and more often than not, it will lose combat, have to test, and if it fails it will get swept and destroyed.

No, it won't. It rarely works out that way because too often, no wounds get through vs Riptide.

 carldooley wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).

Which a furiouso gets zero saves against, while a furiouso in return gets 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course this is also assuming it can either walk across the board unmolested or Drop pod in and not get blown apart that same turn. Also The Riptide is Hitting on 5s because of WS5 vs WS2 but Still a 1/3rd chance to hit with a 2/3rd chance to HP strip with a 1/2 chance to do damage on the table.

The Furiouso has 5 attacks hitting on 3s so lets say 4 hits, against T 6 = 3 wounds usually, against a 3++ and a 5+++ that a little less then 1 wound a turn......

So the riptide which is supposed to suck terrible at CC can actually hold its own against a Walker Vehicle that is designed SOLELY for CC. yep, its not under priced at all.

while it is in combat it cannot shoot. and more often than not, it will lose combat, have to test, and if it fails it will get swept and destroyed.

Martel already covered it fairly well, but just to pile in. Most armies can't assault a riptide turn 1...infact I think there are 1-2 that can pull that nifty little trick off, and most of that can be defused by using common sense when deploying. Furthermore, you can just position a throw away unit of firewarriors in front and boom its now safe from most armies. (Assault from deep strike aside). So in reality that riptide is shooting for 3 turns minimum before it gets assaulted, by which time the Tau army have more then likely already won unless they are playing Eldar/SMs who are as powerful if not more so then Tau. Every other army....? probably all but dead

Not quite. SW and Necron can also live.

Martel732 wrote:
Not quite. SW and Necron can also live.

Well SW I lumped in with Vanilla but . And Necrons? I don't think Tau are nearly as scared of Necrons as the rest of us. They have so much dakka and so few vehicles that they just aren't as scared of them. Don't get me wrong there are some units that are scary for Tau but not the entire army.

Necrons can sick the Wraiths on the problem.

Martel732 wrote:
Necrons can sick the Wraiths on the problem.

And Tau can focus fire those handful of units of wraiths down to nothing before turn 3 You know this as well as I do. 40ppm T5 3++ and RP is hard to kill but not impossible, especially for Tau.

I think the riptide should be a linebreaker unit, since crisis suits were never artillery units. I don't think its overcosted though. As long as you take out the right thing in the tau army, which are the markerlights, you'll get by fairly easy.

And also, try playing maelstrom. The game forces people to move their riptide forward sometimes, and thus be melee fodder. And riptides can't kill enough wraiths to stop them. More often than not, the wraiths will just eat through everything a tau army has.

SemperMortis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Necrons can sick the Wraiths on the problem.

And Tau can focus fire those handful of units of wraiths down to nothing before turn 3 You know this as well as I do. 40ppm T5 3++ and RP is hard to kill but not impossible, especially for Tau.

I don't think they can do this and engage the rest of the army.

Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.

1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.

Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.

Ushtarador wrote:

Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.

1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.

Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.

1/3rd chance to hit with a 1/2 chance to pen with a 1/6 change to explode, and a 1/6 chance to immobilize (rear armor attacks after that)

Compared to a Furioso's 4 attacks hitting on 3s (3 hits) wounding on 2s so probably 3 wounds. against a 3++ thats 1 wound and a 1/3rd chance to ignore that with FNP. So yeah, eventually the Furioso will get unlucky and blow up. probably before the Riptide runs out of wounds.

Also again this is in a vacuum, I doubt that furioso gets into CC in the first place.

Ushtarador wrote:

Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.

1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.

Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.

1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.

Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

Exalted for truth.

My favorite Tau argument that follows is "Take a throw away unit to draw overwatch"

Ushtarador wrote:

Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.

1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.

Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.

I don't think i'm the one who needs to get a grip. Tau players constant underestimation of their capabilities is what is getting ridiculous.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.

1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.

Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

Because players keep 1/2 their army within 6 inches of their riptide?

The bottom line here is that you have to a) have immortal models ala invis wolfstars or b) somehow outshoot the Tau ala Eldar to compete vs Tau. Assaulting them with mortal units is folly, as they are designed to hard counter that approach. The have weak CC stats, but are impossible to actually assault due to multiple layers of assault protection.

The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion. Tau are always on the defensive and never have to move, except to get LoS to shoot some more. VPs don't matter when you're tabled.

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?

The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.

And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.

"And did you again forget to kill the markerlights?"

My first target, but by the time they're dead, 5/6 of my list is as well. BA can't win that race.

". If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever"

I'm saying you'd lose it, too. Most players when confronted with BA scenarios assume the standard marine solutions apply. They don't.

Ushtarador wrote:

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?

The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.

And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.

Riptides can take TL fusion blasters for free in place of the SMS. or TL plasma rifle, so they can have it on tap. unlikely to hit, but if a dreadnaught is charging, its likely close enough to be in melta range.

Yeah, but the competitive loadout is SMS, because they are better in almost every situation.

I'm saying you'd lose it, too. Most players when confronted with BA scenarios assume the standard marine solutions apply. They don't.

I play my BA against Tau rather regularly, and it's not so bad of a matchup. We don't play hyper-competitively, so e.g. I don't see riptide wings (which are, as we have established multiple times, a separate issues), but I have no problem taking on 2 riptides. I don't win every game, but it's rather balanced.
I am also very confident that I could beat any Tau list with BA if I get double the points (especially because I play both armies), you are seriously misjudging this.

Ushtarador wrote:
Yeah, but the competitive loadout is SMS, because they are better in almost every situation.

I'm saying you'd lose it, too. Most players when confronted with BA scenarios assume the standard marine solutions apply. They don't.

I play my BA against Tau rather regularly, and it's not so bad of a matchup. We don't play hyper-competitively, so e.g. I don't see riptide wings (which are, as we have established multiple times, a separate issues), but I have no problem taking on 2 riptides.
I am also very confident that I could beat any Tau list with BA if I get double the points (especially because I play both armies), you are seriously misjudging this.

Am I somehow missing the part where BA get literally none of the things that make vanilla marines good? And Tau have an answer for every BA unit?

Ushtarador wrote:

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?

The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.

And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.

And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.

I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?

No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.

SemperMortis wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.

For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?

The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.

And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.

And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.

I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?

No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.

...sigh.. "Nerf all the characteristics and increase points cost!"

That's how you shut down conversations, because no one will accept that.

Morkanaut should be better, all of orks should be better, we agree. The riptide is too good for what it costs in a general meta (not top v. top, or top v. bottom, but Tau v. all) But making it softer (easier to wound, ok that's fair), weaker (reducing ap,... not the AP "significantly" ap3 is ok), myopic (72", yes too far, 24" worth play testing? but that alone would dramatically shift it, as it will be tied up if not swept more often), AND more expensive? You've killed the conversation. Its better than the bottom rung codexes bad units, but its not even middling tier at 3 w 3+ 5/4++ 5+++ 24"s7 ap4 300 points that you are asking for.