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I don't know of any geneseed mutations or missing functions in anyof the traitor legions.
The loyalists on the other hand turn into furries (space wolves) or suffer from suicidal bouts of rage (blood angels and Raven guard). Some loyalists are missing some functions like the acid spit.

The traitors suffer from the corrupting influences of the warp, but those don't come from their genseeds. Not even in the case of the world eaters.

The thousand sons suffered from the worst mutations, but I always had the impression that they were being manipulated by tzeentch from day one. And they "fixed" that fault twice.
The loyalists have at least 3 legions with strong adverse mutations. The iron warriors are the only ones I know of that have a minor flaw among the traitors other than TSons.
Despite warp corruptions none of the traitor legions have any problems making new stable marines either. They may have...alternative methods, but they still need intact gene seed for this.

I could be quite wrong on this, but I'd quite enjoy the irony if there was some truth to that.

they also have the most stable geneseed (dark angels and ultramarines) that said a loit of the traitor geneseed had faults simply less obvious ones

The "stable" CSM are the true Veterans of the Long War, the ones who are ten thousand years old and still carry the original geneseed that was considered (at the time) "stable".

Now, whether or not one can really consider GC-era World Eaters or Alpha Legionnaires to be "stable", well, I guess that's a matter of debate.

Beyond those ancient bastards, though, modern CSM are just as subject to instability of their geneseed as anyone from their parent Chapter, or the Legion they originally sprang from. However, since more than half of the current Loyalist Marines are descended from the Ultramarines, arguably the most-stable of geneseeds (something about it being vanilla-flavored), it stands to reason that the bulk of "modern" CSM are likewise UM descendants, thus you don't see a lot of geneseed degradation in newer CSM.

With regards to the Blood Angels mutations, the severity of it is affected by Sangie's method of death. They'd still have if he'd died another way, but it probably wouldn't be that severe.
To my knowledge the Word Bearers, iron Warriors and Sons of Horus all had pretty stable geneseed, which allowed them to grow so large.

 Psienesis wrote:
The "stable" CSM are the true Veterans of the Long War, the ones who are ten thousand years old and still carry the original geneseed that was considered (at the time) "stable".

Now, whether or not one can really consider GC-era World Eaters or Alpha Legionnaires to be "stable", well, I guess that's a matter of debate.

Beyond those ancient bastards, though, modern CSM are just as subject to instability of their geneseed as anyone from their parent Chapter, or the Legion they originally sprang from. However, since more than half of the current Loyalist Marines are descended from the Ultramarines, arguably the most-stable of geneseeds (something about it being vanilla-flavored), it stands to reason that the bulk of "modern" CSM are likewise UM descendants, thus you don't see a lot of geneseed degradation in newer CSM.

What do you mean by "stable"? As far as I'm aware neither world eaters or alpha legion show any kind of mutations or defects. The hyper aggressiveness stems from the butcher's nails surgery rather than the geneseed. The legion has been shaped from the top down by somebody who had/has a questionable psyche, but to my knowledge that again is largely due to his up bringing and the original surgery rather than his geneseed.

I'm more interested in the quality of the geneseeds themselves, as opposed to the sanity of their carrier. Disregarding the actual number of marines with that geneseed. Every geneseed exhibits a certain characteristic behaviour. That's not what I meant. When I said stable I was referring to physical stability.

Even when you consider the cursed founding chapters. The loyalists screwed up royally with those. How come the traitors don't exhibit similar results despite being located in the warp? Or is that simply a result of feeling superior and still being preoccupied with the long war? Are they just unsuccessful?
It is my impression that csm are better at creating new marines than the loyalists, albeit at a higher attrition rate.

Maybe I should start with a comparison to show what I mean?

On the loyalist side you have the ultra marines,dark angels, white scars and iron hands that seem to have no defects.
Space wolves seem especially flawed, Blood Angels and Raven Guard have similar flaws with the raven guard being slightly less bad, but having more minor flaws like their skin.
Salamanders, Imperial Fists and raven guard all have minor flaws like missing acid glands and such.
Second founding chapters in general all have some flaw or another. Quite significant ones too, between being on fire and growing bone spikes.

CSM on the other hand have thousand sons which had the worst flaw by a long shot and iron warrior have a minor flaw in that limbs will become distorted eventually, which is easily fixed by replacing said limb.
Other than that I'm not aware of anything. I suppose I should add the likeness of Horus to the list of minor flaws for the Luna Wolves. The alpha legion didn't have that iirc. They went out of their way to look similar, but it wasn't genetic.
All the other legions seem to have no defects to my (limited) knowledge.

Iron warriors are stable. But they have chaos mutation, they tend to hack that off and use good old augments.

You never read them turning to dust or mutating.

But also very much prejudiced against any half breeds like honsou .

Iron warriors are one of the most practical of the traitors and they have real logistics, real support and such.

Chaos corrupts. It doesn't stop and keep the geneseed "stable".

The geneseed is a complicated process and the Night Lords former Apothecary who thougth about repleneshing the losses didn't think of " our geneseed is ok, lets make some more" but rather deemed it unusable...
Traitors won't steal loyalist geneseed to use it if they could make more legionaires of their own Legion/Primarch, especially if this floats the galaxy with "sons of Gulliman".

And there is the many Generations of SM in "real time", the Loyalists, vs how many Generations of SM in "time flows differently land" , the Traitors ?. If a problem occurs after the 500st copy, copy N° 3 may not have it.

Isn't it the fluff that traitor geneseed is all gacked up so they have to raid real space to get the geneseed to create new recruits from.

I guess chaos taint is one factor that reduces 'stability' of geneseed; maybe if there are some surviving 'loyal traitors' there would be some intact, stable traitor geneseed?

Surprisingly the Night Lords's gene seed is very stable even as the legion lives in the eye of terror. Something about them not worshiping chaos like the other legions.

Konrad Curze's gift of seeing the future does end up driving a lot of marines insane, but genetically they are stable/mentally not so much.

The warp seems to make it mostly unusable for the purposes of making new marines, as in there is too much information missing to use it as a foundation. Even so, you don't hear of any mutations caused by the geneseed. The traitor legions don't seem to to suffer from legion wide afflictions like the wolves or blood angels do. Nor are they missing any organs like the those that allow for the acid spit.

Also, it is my understanding that the csm raid real space for geneseed yes, but that is used in a repair function. As in, any legion can use any geneseed to make new marines, but those new marines will be fully of their parent legion. Using Ultramarine geneseed to make new word bearers doesn't turn them into ultra marines from a genetic point of view. They would still be prone to the same tendencies and afflictions of their parent legion/geneseed.

Perhaps it's just a case of csm suffering from warp fueled mutations much sooner than their geneseed has a chance to manifest any faults, but I haven't heard of any notable defects in traitor geneseed. Pre or post heresy, except for TSons and iron warriors. While the loyalists seem to have all sorts of issues post heresy. Even with the warp damaging their geneseed, the traitors seem to have less issues in that regard.

nareik wrote:
Isn't it the fluff that traitor geneseed is all gacked up so they have to raid real space to get the geneseed to create new recruits from.

I guess chaos taint is one factor that reduces 'stability' of geneseed; maybe if there are some surviving 'loyal traitors' there would be some intact, stable traitor geneseed?

Some of the traitors geneseed is all gacked up, but mainly you have issues because the people who control the geneseed are not necessarily the most ambitious warlords. So warlords without enough geneseed need to raid it(from other chaos warbands or from the IoM) to create more space marines. They just go for whatever is easiest

The Ad-Mech continues to create and store traitor geneseed in addition to the loyalist varieties just in case. So if the traitors hit the right warehouse they can actually steal their own primarchs geneseed.

I'm not sure about the night lords. Visually they appear quite similar to raven guard, but is that due to their geneseed or simply the fact that they recruited from nostromo? Humans there would have gone through some changes given how it is perpetually dark there.

 Roknar wrote:

I'm more interested in the quality of the geneseeds themselves, as opposed to the sanity of their carrier. Disregarding the actual number of marines with that geneseed. Every geneseed exhibits a certain characteristic behaviour. That's not what I meant. When I said stable I was referring to physical stability.

I don't think it's unreasonable to infer that the corruption of the traitor legions may be tied to the geneseed. Certain traits, particularly mental instability, seem to be traits that the traitor legions are predisposed towards. It seems like a geneseed that exhibits a wide and varied spectrum of flaws is more corrupt than one that shows a single flaw or set of flaws that appears with predictable regularity.

I agree with that. Their dispositions sure make it easier for chaos to get a hold on them and likewise affect their bodies with prolonged exposure to the warp. And yet, those are warp spawned changes and wouldn't occur naturally.

It's not much of a surprise that the legions that turned traitor are the ones we got and I agree that their geneseed has something to do with that. I wouldn't count it as a particular flaw though that the loyalists don't also have. They just happen to be sitting safe in real space.

 Roknar wrote:
. As in, any legion can use any geneseed to make new marines, but those new marines will be fully of their parent legion. Using Ultramarine geneseed to make new word bearers doesn't turn them into ultra marines from a genetic point of view. They would still be prone to the same tendencies and afflictions of their parent legion/geneseed.

Geneseed + Human = Space Marine. Yes. But picking a geneseed doesn't give you a random marine from Legio 2 for example just because you are the last member of Legio 2 and feel so lonely without a brother.

20 sets of geneseed made, 20 Primarchs handing down some traits. 20 "blood-lines" . IMHO this was intended.
The HH Books added the possibility that 1 Legio of the 2 who are without records suffered a failure of their geneseed.
The Emperors Children were in dire straits and just escaped destruction when their geneseed didn't work so well, but this led to their obsesseion with perfection too.

The cursed founding was said to be an attempt at repairing failures with mixing geneseeds , using even sets of Legions who are excomunicate Hereticus. Traits from some of the few chapters which appeared in WD are very close to traits one would deem typical for some traitor Legions.

Maybe you don't feel like an Ultramarine , but if your geneseed is based on Roboute Gulliman you won't completly evade all of his traits.

Aren't most Space marines in the warp created with the help of Fabius bile? Otherwise they are mutation infused humans in power armor

Or from stolen gene-seed like the Hydra Cordatus or Marines Errant raid.

It depends really. BA's geneseed is fraked for example, while the original Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Sons of Horus had a very stable gene seed. Of course now it's impossible for them the use it, since the effects in the EoT are not kind for their genetic makeup.

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers have extremely good gene seed. The Iron Warriors is probably better as they tend to shy away from corruption, and they also picked up a tonne during the Seige of Hydra Cordatus.

The Sons of Horus also had good gene seed, but it probably turned to jelly because of all the faction hopping they did back just after the heresy.


Of course, continued exposure to the eye of terror probably isn't good for your genetic code.

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers have extremely good gene seed. The Iron Warriors is probably better as they tend to shy away from corruption, and they also picked up a tonne during the Seige of Hydra Cordatus.

The Sons of Horus also had good gene seed, but it probably turned to jelly because of all the faction hopping they did back just after the heresy.


Of course, continued exposure to the eye of terror probably isn't good for your genetic code.

Yes but what they picked up after the siege of Hydra Cordatus wasn't Iron Warrior geneseed, but rather geneseeds from different loyalist chapters.

 Roknar wrote:
What do you mean by "stable"? As far as I'm aware neither world eaters or alpha legion show any kind of mutations or defects. The hyper aggressiveness stems from the butcher's nails surgery rather than the geneseed. The legion has been shaped from the top down by somebody who had/has a questionable psyche, but to my knowledge that again is largely due to his up bringing and the original surgery rather than his geneseed.

Something to consider is that chaos have likely much more "fresh" geneseeds available. Due to being IN warp they have spent 10k year in much less time. Basically they have access to geneseed what it was while loyalists have forgotten science.

Even when you consider the cursed founding chapters. The loyalists screwed up royally with those. How come the traitors don't exhibit similar results despite being located in the warp? Or is that simply a result of feeling superior and still being preoccupied with the long war? Are they just unsuccessful?

In regards to cursed founding that was imperium trying to tinker with the geneseed. No wonder tinkering with barely understood thing lead to disaster!

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers have extremely good gene seed. The Iron Warriors is probably better as they tend to shy away from corruption, and they also picked up a tonne during the Seige of Hydra Cordatus.

The Sons of Horus also had good gene seed, but it probably turned to jelly because of all the faction hopping they did back just after the heresy.


Of course, continued exposure to the eye of terror probably isn't good for your genetic code.

the Iron warriors may shy from corruoption but that doesn't matter.

I think it has to do with variety. With normal men, if the genetic variety isn't enough, problems develop. For example, Elizabeth Bathory was a result of incest, and look how that turned out. With the Chaos gene seeds, it's taken from a variety of resources, giving genetic variety. With the loyalist, the seed is never changed, meaning that even with the interaction of the primarch and human DNA, it still is too similar, making it easier for mutations and defective powers.

So basically, Space Marines are actually just the same as Royalty, just with better amour. At least, that's my theory.

Interesting point. I can see how that might have something to do with it. The bigger problems started after the heresy right? So maybe a the defects are due to a mix of psychic backlash and a lack of genetic variation.
Except for space wolves due to the canix helix and TSons because tzeentch was messing with them (in my mind anyway). And the second founding was just them tampering with things beyond their understanding, whereas CSM/Dark Mechanicus or at least fabius seem to have a better understanding.

And perhaps there being more legionnaires around on the traitor side which have a "fresher" sample that would be closer to their primarchs than that of a space marine after god knows how many iterations. The loyalists that have been around since around the hreresy don't seem to suffer any defects either after all.

Engrenages wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers have extremely good gene seed. The Iron Warriors is probably better as they tend to shy away from corruption, and they also picked up a tonne during the Seige of Hydra Cordatus.

The Sons of Horus also had good gene seed, but it probably turned to jelly because of all the faction hopping they did back just after the heresy.


Of course, continued exposure to the eye of terror probably isn't good for your genetic code.

Yes but what they picked up after the siege of Hydra Cordatus wasn't Iron Warrior geneseed, but rather geneseeds from different loyalist chapters.

True but it bacame theirs by power. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

 welshhoppo wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers have extremely good gene seed. The Iron Warriors is probably better as they tend to shy away from corruption, and they also picked up a tonne during the Seige of Hydra Cordatus.

The Sons of Horus also had good gene seed, but it probably turned to jelly because of all the faction hopping they did back just after the heresy.


Of course, continued exposure to the eye of terror probably isn't good for your genetic code.

Yes but what they picked up after the siege of Hydra Cordatus wasn't Iron Warrior geneseed, but rather geneseeds from different loyalist chapters.

True but it bacame theirs by power. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

That's why Crimson Slaughter and Word Bearers are power houses in the eye.

 welshhoppo wrote:

Engrenages wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers have extremely good gene seed. The Iron Warriors is probably better as they tend to shy away from corruption, and they also picked up a tonne during the Seige of Hydra Cordatus.

The Sons of Horus also had good gene seed, but it probably turned to jelly because of all the faction hopping they did back just after the heresy.


Of course, continued exposure to the eye of terror probably isn't good for your genetic code.

Yes but what they picked up after the siege of Hydra Cordatus wasn't Iron Warrior geneseed, but rather geneseeds from different loyalist chapters.

True but it bacame theirs by power. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

yYes but you cannot use those as an indicator of how stable Iron Warrior geneseed are, since they do not come from Perturabo's matrix.

Apart from raiding Geneseed repositories they can even also steal from the corpses of the fallen, like what Perturabo did to ascend to Daemonhood after the Iron Cage incident, although this was used differently. The only issue is that they are then not true Iron Warriors or what ever legion uses this method. How does this affect the traitor astartes though? Would it give traits of the parent chapter? In the case of Honsou it doesn't seem to have had an adverse affects and he was still an Iron Warrior, but other pure traitors looked down on him for this reason. (Storm of Iron)

The traitor gene-seed was apparently damaged before the Heresy due to the procedures used to rapidly replace the loses during the crusade. But then again all of the seems to have some form of flaw.

Codex: Space Marines 6th Ed
The Horus Heresy had also revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. Guilliman believed that the Chaos Powers were able to exploit the resultant physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’ troops against the Emperor.

It's not mentioned in the 7th ed one from what I can see though. But would it also have affected the Loyalist legions as the same processes would have been used surely?

Also

IA: Codex Astartes
The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.

IA: Word Bearers
The gene-seed of the Word Bearers was originally thought to be pure, but events subsequent to the Horus Heresy revealed the weaknesses inherent in their genetic make-up. The Space Marines of the Word Bearers have a marked tendency towards dogged, unquestioning belief and stubbornness that verges on insanity.

On the Imperial Fists for example

The Imperial Fists gene-seed is very stable and has never exhibited signs of mutation. They have, however, lost the use of some of the more minor genetic enhancements of the Space Marines. Specifically they no longer possess the sus-an membrane that allows the Space Marine to enter a state of suspended animation. Neither do they have a Betchers gland, which allows a Space Marine to spit corrosive poison at a foe.

Also from the Rites of Initiation article

Most Chapters have existed for thousands of years. During that time, gene-seed belonging to some Chapters has mutated. This has resulted in changes in the exact nature of the artificially cultured organs. Such changes may sometimes make an implant useless. In other circumstances, changes in an organ might reduce its effectiveness or cause strange new effects. Whatever the result, it will affect the entire Chapter - all Space Marines belonging to a Chapter share implants cultured from the same original gene-seed.

As well as mutant implants, many Chapters have lost one or more types of gene-seed due to accident, genetic failure, or some other cause. Very few Chapters therefore possess all nineteen implants. All possess the carapace implant (phase 19). It is this implant which marks a Space Marine for what he is, irrespective of other implants, training or psycho-surgery.

If you would like to have a look at the IA articles which is a good source you can use this link

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k_astartes.html#2

The superior stability of loyalist gene seeds is pure imperial propaganda. Look at them they turn into wolfs for morks sake. Are they less stable than the traitor ones ? Who knows.
There seems to be not enough data to support that claim.

Pilau Rice wrote:The traitor gene-seed was apparently damaged before the Heresy due to the procedures used to rapidly replace the loses during the crusade. But then again all of the seems to have some form of flaw.

I always interpreted those sorts of statements as in-universe Imperial point of view. Like they couldn't understand how anyone could turn against the Emperor so there had to be external factors involved.

 oldzoggy wrote:
The superior stability of loyalist gene seeds is pure imperial propaganda. Look at them they turn into wolfs for morks sake. Are they less stable than the traitor ones ? Who knows.
There seems to be not enough data to support that claim.

To be fair most Loyalist geneseed is Ultramarine geneseed and that is very stable.