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Hi, I've been thinking about the Psychic Phase a lot lately and I think there's reason to change it. I'm not a big fan of the massive pool of Warp Charge players exploit so that when one of their many psychers gets that super special OP cheesy power they can throw a bucket load of dice to manifest it with little risk in return. I miss the individual model psychic test from 5th edition and earlier editions, however, I like the idea of warp charge generation also. So, I propose that the next edition of 40K combine them! Here's how: During the Psychic phase each psycher generates Warp Charge equal to their Mastery Level + D3. This amount of Warp Charge is generated and used on a model by model basis. Okay so, with this significantly smaller amount of dice to throw at manifesting a given psychic power I would advocate powers going off on a 3+ instead of 4+. That's it! Pretty straight forward tone down of this process. Thoughts?

So I have an ML 2 Psyker with Endurance, Smite, and Hemorrhage. I roll a 1 on my d3.

I now CANNOT cast both Endurance and Hemorrhage.

No, I don't like this change.

JNA has a good point. I'd also note that some armies, such as GK and Tzeentch Daemons, have a lot of psyker units in their armies meaning you'd end up spending a lot of time rolling for and marking the number of warp charges each unit of terminators or pink horror have for that turn.


Let me ask you this, OP: What is it about warp charge generation that you like and want to keep? The random number of dice available? The reward for having a higher ML? Maybe we can identify the aspect of it you like and design around that.

I've been working on a system for my skirmish game that I think combines some of the better aspects of all iterations. Each psyker generates a fixed amount of Warp Charge, which gets spent during the normal order of play (rather than during a separate phase) to cast powers or activate effects. Some effects (Force weapons, Pink Horror ranged attacks...) don't require a psychic test, can't be denied, and don't carry a risk of Perils. Powers have a cost in Warp Charge to cast, Psychic Tests are taken on Leadership the way they were in 4th/5th. Psykers within 12" of the caster can make an opposed Leadership test to deny the power; by default the casting player rolls two dice and the denying player rolls one, but if either psyker has spare Warp Charge lying around they can spend it to add dice to the roll.

This hasn't been tested much and some of these things would require further modification to be applied back to normal 40k (Force Weapons do something different under this system, and powers are almost completely different), but I'm hoping the result will be straightforward and relatively reliable, and keep powerful psykers from easily shutting down the opposition the way they do in 40k today.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So I have an ML 2 Psyker with Endurance, Smite, and Hemorrhage. I roll a 1 on my d3.

I now CANNOT cast both Endurance and Hemorrhage.

No, I don't like this change.

This highlights the tone down I was referring to in my original post. In Fifth, you could buy as many powers as you wanted but only got to cast one per turn. Obviously, with these changes I'm proposing pulling off a slew of powers each turn is not going to happen. That is the point!

So I pay 75 points for ML 3 on my Daemon Prince or Sorcerer, but still only get one power per turn?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So I pay 75 points for ML 3 on my Daemon Prince or Sorcerer, but still only get one power per turn?

Mastery Level in 5th was a Grey Knight keyword that let you use more than one power a turn; if I recall correctly Space Marines, Tzeentch Daemons, and Chaos Sorcerers had rules to that effect as well before it was codified.

Wyldhunt wrote:
JNA has a good point. I'd also note that some armies, such as GK and Tzeentch Daemons, have a lot of psyker units in their armies meaning you'd end up spending a lot of time rolling for and marking the number of warp charges each unit of terminators or pink horror have for that turn.


Let me ask you this, OP: What is it about warp charge generation that you like and want to keep? The random number of dice available? The reward for having a higher ML? Maybe we can identify the aspect of it you like and design around that.

Yes, the reward for higher ML is an aspect I like with the Warp Charge system. Also the fact that powers aren't guaranteed to go off in this system as opposed to the Leadership test on Ld10 models, which was all but guaranteed in 5th edition. The current system has it's merits but I hate the Warp Charge sharing aspect that obscenely benefits lists with multiple psychers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So I pay 75 points for ML 3 on my Daemon Prince or Sorcerer, but still only get one power per turn?

On the other hand, your ML3 buys you a much better chance to roll a power that you really want AND gives you a better chance to manifest said power.

v0iddrgn wrote:
...Also the fact that powers aren't guaranteed to go off in this system as opposed to the Leadership test on Ld10 models, which was all but guaranteed in 5th edition...

That's another bit about my skirmish setup that doesn't translate well into 40k; I've adjusted Ld values down for a lot of reasons, and most psykers are Ld 7-8. Leadership in 40k is a weird problem in general (it's cool to be able to mess with, but most of the time it's completely irrelevant).

I'm getting the feeling that the people opposed to this change are some the same people that cast 5+ powers a turn taking advantage of some of the broken psychic powers out there *cough* Invisibility *cough*
I'm not sure if they realize that no one wants to play against that kind of list. Most players agree that the psychic phase is OP right now and changes are needed. Only players taking advantage of the system cry fowl as their cheese armies take a hit from these balancing changes.

Here's a hint: "you don't agree with me because you're a cheesemonster or a cheater" is not exactly a good way to win people over to your cause.

Some of the issue with the psychic phase is that it's very high-variance. So the army with one ML1 psyker probably achieves nothing most of the time, even if he knows a broken, cheesemonstrous power, while the army with a total of twenty warp charges can pull off whatever they want, mostly. But thanks to random-rolled powers, they might have the powers they want, or they might not. Some way to make it a bit more consistent and less swingy would be very nice, in addition to nerfing some of the royally cheesy stuff and bringing some of the useless powers up.

v0iddrgn wrote:
I'm getting the feeling that the people opposed to this change are some the same people that cast 5+ powers a turn taking advantage of some of the broken psychic powers out there *cough* Invisibility *cough*
I'm not sure if they realize that no one wants to play against that kind of list. Most players agree that the psychic phase is OP right now and changes are needed. Only players taking advantage of the system cry fowl as their cheese armies take a hit from these balancing changes.

Nah. People have expressed some very valid concerns about your proposed change. No need to insult people just because they don't agree with you.

And armies that cast 5+ powers a turn can be extremely fluff. Tzeentch daemons, even played non-cheesily, really ought to be casting psychic powers; it's their thing. Grey Knights are paying points to have every model in the army be a psyker. Why should they not be casting a lot of powers? Even just a fluffy Tyranid or Thousand Sons list is likely to feature a lot of psykers.

Invisibility is a problem, but there are ways to target that directly, and it's not really a player's fault that he rolled a good power.


There is definitely a problem with psyker-heavy armies invalidating the odd librarian in a non-psyker-heavy list, but that's its own discussion that can be addressed without assuming everyone who plays Grey Knights is a cheesemonger.

I have used Invisibility... Once? Maybe twice. I remember actually rolling it, apologizing to my opponent about it (since it is an OP power) and when he said "Why not just reroll it?" I did, because that's no fun.

But I also use a lot of powers, from Iron Arm to Enfeeble to Psychic Shriek, and this nerf would be ridiculous to my army.

Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I'd be OK with the psychic phase being toned down, but I think your proposed change comes pretty close to "nerfed into the ground" rather than "toned down".

If you pay to be able to know, and use, multiple powers on a single psyker, it's fine if it's difficult to cast them all. It's not generally fine if it's impossible to do so.

If I understand you correctly, your big problems are a) being able to use other psykers as "batteries" to guarantee casting on the one guy that has the really strong powers, and b) stacking a bunch of buffs on a single unit.

Maybe it would work better to have each psyker generate d6 + ML warp charges? Still a lot of bookkeeping, and it's still possible to end up in a case where you cannot cast any powers (ML1 psyker gets a WC3/4 power and rolls a 1 on the d6), though.

v0iddrgn wrote:
Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I do use psychic powers quite a lot (between Grey Knights, Eldar, and Tzeentch Daemons perhaps more than anyone), but your proposal may actually be a massive buff. I try to focus on casting more reliable small powers rather than building battle plans around fishing for Invisibility, and giving my Warlocks and Brotherhood of Psykers units cast-on-3+ isn't exactly a nerf. Not to mention you're giving armies with more than one psyker more Warp Charge on average than they'd get under the current rules; if I'm bringing a Harlequin Masque with three ML1 Shadowseers I'd get d6+3 WC (average 6.5) now, under your system I'd get 3d3+3 (average 9).

v0iddrgn wrote:
Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I for one would welcome a toning down of the psychic phase as there are, in fact, several very problematic powers out there. I'm not flustered that your changes would tone down psykers. I'm simply pointing out that your proposed solution would involve a lot of extra die rolling (to generate each unit's pool of dice) and would require a bit of extra bookkeeping as a result. Which I'm not a fan of. There's lots of bookkeeping already.

The concerns that others have pointed out are also quite valid. Let's say a ML2 librarian happens to roll, for instance, Endurance and Haemorrhage. Ignoring for a moment that haemorrhage is extremely weak, that librarian would only have a chance to cast both of his rolled powers if he happened to roll a 3 on a d3 under your system. And even then, his odds of getting both of them off are pretty bad. His chances of getting even one of them off aren't great either.

Respectfully, your internet tone is coming across in such a way as to suggest that we're attacking your idea because we're horrible power gamers that want to keep abusing our invisibility power. Instead, most of the feedback I see in this thread is more along the lines of, "Hey, we'd be happy to see invisibility fixed, but your suggestion has some problems of its own." I could be simply misreading your tone though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I do use psychic powers quite a lot (between Grey Knights, Eldar, and Tzeentch Daemons perhaps more than anyone), but your proposal may actually be a massive buff. I try to focus on casting more reliable small powers rather than building battle plans around fishing for Invisibility, and giving my Warlocks and Brotherhood of Psykers units cast-on-3+ isn't exactly a nerf. Not to mention you're giving armies with more than one psyker more Warp Charge on average than they'd get under the current rules; if I'm bringing a Harlequin Masque with three ML1 Shadowseers I'd get d6+3 WC (average 6.5) now, under your system I'd get 3d3+3 (average 9).

My proposed system would only give D3+1 Warp Charge to each Masque. This would allow each Masque to roll between 2-4 dice to manifest their power given power (on a 3+ mind you). You seem to be referencing a pool effect like the system is now. You are right that it would be a buff to getting off powers easily, however, it would erase the "pool" effect that power gamers utilize now.

v0iddrgn wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
JNA has a good point. I'd also note that some armies, such as GK and Tzeentch Daemons, have a lot of psyker units in their armies meaning you'd end up spending a lot of time rolling for and marking the number of warp charges each unit of terminators or pink horror have for that turn.


Let me ask you this, OP: What is it about warp charge generation that you like and want to keep? The random number of dice available? The reward for having a higher ML? Maybe we can identify the aspect of it you like and design around that.

Yes, the reward for higher ML is an aspect I like with the Warp Charge system. Also the fact that powers aren't guaranteed to go off in this system as opposed to the Leadership test on Ld10 models, which was all but guaranteed in 5th edition. The current system has it's merits but I hate the Warp Charge sharing aspect that obscenely benefits lists with multiple psychers.

I'm not sure your system really does much to reward a high ML. In the official 40k rules, a psyker with a high ML is still generating extra dice to use himself. He just also happens to be able to benefit from the dice of his friends. Your system doesn't change the first part (you're still getting dice based on ML), but it prevents the second part. Which isn't an innately bad thing, but as others have pointed out, you've made it very difficult for a given librarian to cast more than one power a turn. Is casting endurance and haemorhage really that big a problem?

Personally, I'm not a fan of making it harder to cast psychic powers. Modify psychic powers so that they aren't broken when they go off, sure, but I'm not a fan of my centuries old farseer standing there with a constipated expression as he awkwardly fails to cast Doom even though he's been casting it for longer than the two of us combined have been alive. Back in the day, my warlock just got his psychic powers with no problem. Now, he has to roll multiple dice in order to cast his one power per turn, and his one wound makes him rather prone to dying from perils when he does so. So I can either roll a single die and give myself a 50/50 chance to sit there looking silly rather than doing cool space magic, or I can roll extra dice and risk having this be the one time in his centuries of throwing space magic around that he accidentally suffers perils.


Would it be fair to say that you're less concerned with people throwing lots of dice at a power to ensure that it goes off and more concerned with the fact that that power might be broken? For example, are you terribly worried that someone will throw extra dice at Smite, or is it Invisibility and its ilk that has you worried? If it's the latter, I think it might be better to simply nerf problem powers rather than pursuing this particular psychic system that you've proposed. People have pointed out that your proposed system has some (probably unintended) downsides. It seems like you'd be causing new problems in an effort to fix the real problem.

Wyldhunt wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I for one would welcome a toning down of the psychic phase as there are, in fact, several very problematic powers out there. I'm not flustered that your changes would tone down psykers. I'm simply pointing out that your proposed solution would involve a lot of extra die rolling (to generate each unit's pool of dice) and would require a bit of extra bookkeeping as a result. Which I'm not a fan of. There's lots of bookkeeping already.

The concerns that others have pointed out are also quite valid. Let's say a ML2 librarian happens to roll, for instance, Endurance and Haemorrhage. Ignoring for a moment that haemorrhage is extremely weak, that librarian would only have a chance to cast both of his rolled powers if he happened to roll a 3 on a d3 under your system. And even then, his odds of getting both of them off are pretty bad. His chances of getting even one of them off aren't great either.

In the case of pulling off 2 or more powers in a single psychic phase, yeah, it should be harder to do. The more powerful the psyker the easier it becomes to do that. Your ML2 librarian would generate between 3-5 warp charge per turn, manifesting powers on a 3+. If you try to get both powers off and do then good on ya but I ask that you hearken back to 5th edition when you would have had to choose which power you wanted to use. I think that the smaller pool of dice makes the player have to make that 5th edition type of choice as to what is really the priority given the situation the game presents at the time. You can disagree and I don't mind... I did ask for thoughts after all.

v0iddrgn wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I do use psychic powers quite a lot (between Grey Knights, Eldar, and Tzeentch Daemons perhaps more than anyone), but your proposal may actually be a massive buff. I try to focus on casting more reliable small powers rather than building battle plans around fishing for Invisibility, and giving my Warlocks and Brotherhood of Psykers units cast-on-3+ isn't exactly a nerf. Not to mention you're giving armies with more than one psyker more Warp Charge on average than they'd get under the current rules; if I'm bringing a Harlequin Masque with three ML1 Shadowseers I'd get d6+3 WC (average 6.5) now, under your system I'd get 3d3+3 (average 9).

My proposed system would only give D3+1 Warp Charge to each Masque. This would allow each Masque to roll between 2-4 dice to manifest their power given power (on a 3+ mind you). You seem to be referencing a pool effect like the system is now. You are right that it would be a buff to getting off powers easily, however, it would erase the "pool" effect that power gamers utilize now.

I think you might be confusing the term "Masque" for shadowseer. The Masque is the name of the detachment. So if you're generating d3+1 dice per Masque, that implies that you're using a pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I for one would welcome a toning down of the psychic phase as there are, in fact, several very problematic powers out there. I'm not flustered that your changes would tone down psykers. I'm simply pointing out that your proposed solution would involve a lot of extra die rolling (to generate each unit's pool of dice) and would require a bit of extra bookkeeping as a result. Which I'm not a fan of. There's lots of bookkeeping already.

The concerns that others have pointed out are also quite valid. Let's say a ML2 librarian happens to roll, for instance, Endurance and Haemorrhage. Ignoring for a moment that haemorrhage is extremely weak, that librarian would only have a chance to cast both of his rolled powers if he happened to roll a 3 on a d3 under your system. And even then, his odds of getting both of them off are pretty bad. His chances of getting even one of them off aren't great either.

In the case of pulling off 2 or more powers in a single psychic phase, yeah, it should be harder to do. The more powerful the psyker the easier it becomes to do that. Your ML2 librarian would generate between 3-5 warp charge per turn, manifesting powers on a 3+. If you try to get both powers off and do then good on ya but I ask that you hearken back to 5th edition when you would have had to choose which power you wanted to use. I think that the smaller pool of dice makes the player have to make that 5th edition type of choice as to what is really the priority given the situation the game presents at the time. You can disagree and I don't mind... I did ask for thoughts after all.

That's the thing though. In 5th edition, a librarian could be upgraded to an Epistolary (or whatever it was called) and cast two powers a turn very reliably. He paid his points for his powers, and he paid his points to use two of them each turn, and then he did so barring an unfortunate leadership test. In the current rules a given psyker can't cast more powers than his ML, so a given librarian will only be casting two per turn unless he's Tigurius. Under your system, rolling two high WC powers might make it very difficult for a ML2 librarian to cast two powers.

5th edition: casting two powers is easy
Current rules: casting two powers by yourself is harder, but you can borrow dice from "batteries" to make it doable.
Your system: casting two powers is still harder than 5th edition, but you can't borrow dice from your pals, and you'll only have d3 random dice instead of d6.

Wyldhunt wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
JNA has a good point. I'd also note that some armies, such as GK and Tzeentch Daemons, have a lot of psyker units in their armies meaning you'd end up spending a lot of time rolling for and marking the number of warp charges each unit of terminators or pink horror have for that turn.


Let me ask you this, OP: What is it about warp charge generation that you like and want to keep? The random number of dice available? The reward for having a higher ML? Maybe we can identify the aspect of it you like and design around that.

Yes, the reward for higher ML is an aspect I like with the Warp Charge system. Also the fact that powers aren't guaranteed to go off in this system as opposed to the Leadership test on Ld10 models, which was all but guaranteed in 5th edition. The current system has it's merits but I hate the Warp Charge sharing aspect that obscenely benefits lists with multiple psychers.

I'm not sure your system really does much to reward a high ML. In the official 40k rules, a psyker with a high ML is still generating extra dice to use himself. He just also happens to be able to benefit from the dice of his friends. Your system doesn't change the first part (you're still getting dice based on ML), but it prevents the second part. Which isn't an innately bad thing, but as others have pointed out, you've made it very difficult for a given librarian to cast more than one power a turn. Is casting endurance and haemorhage really that big a problem?

Personally, I'm not a fan of making it harder to cast psychic powers. Modify psychic powers so that they aren't broken when they go off, sure, but I'm not a fan of my centuries old farseer standing there with a constipated expression as he awkwardly fails to cast Doom even though he's been casting it for longer than the two of us combined have been alive. Back in the day, my warlock just got his psychic powers with no problem. Now, he has to roll multiple dice in order to cast his one power per turn, and his one wound makes him rather prone to dying from perils when he does so. So I can either roll a single die and give myself a 50/50 chance to sit there looking silly rather than doing cool space magic, or I can roll extra dice and risk having this be the one time in his centuries of throwing space magic around that he accidentally suffers perils.


Would it be fair to say that you're less concerned with people throwing lots of dice at a power to ensure that it goes off and more concerned with the fact that that power might be broken? For example, are you terribly worried that someone will throw extra dice at Smite, or is it Invisibility and its ilk that has you worried? If it's the latter, I think it might be better to simply nerf problem powers rather than pursuing this particular psychic system that you've proposed. People have pointed out that your proposed system has some (probably unintended) downsides. It seems like you'd be causing new problems in an effort to fix the real problem.

So, you would advocate for Farseers and such to auto-cast powers based on fluff?

v0iddrgn wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
JNA has a good point. I'd also note that some armies, such as GK and Tzeentch Daemons, have a lot of psyker units in their armies meaning you'd end up spending a lot of time rolling for and marking the number of warp charges each unit of terminators or pink horror have for that turn.


Let me ask you this, OP: What is it about warp charge generation that you like and want to keep? The random number of dice available? The reward for having a higher ML? Maybe we can identify the aspect of it you like and design around that.

Yes, the reward for higher ML is an aspect I like with the Warp Charge system. Also the fact that powers aren't guaranteed to go off in this system as opposed to the Leadership test on Ld10 models, which was all but guaranteed in 5th edition. The current system has it's merits but I hate the Warp Charge sharing aspect that obscenely benefits lists with multiple psychers.

I'm not sure your system really does much to reward a high ML. In the official 40k rules, a psyker with a high ML is still generating extra dice to use himself. He just also happens to be able to benefit from the dice of his friends. Your system doesn't change the first part (you're still getting dice based on ML), but it prevents the second part. Which isn't an innately bad thing, but as others have pointed out, you've made it very difficult for a given librarian to cast more than one power a turn. Is casting endurance and haemorhage really that big a problem?

Personally, I'm not a fan of making it harder to cast psychic powers. Modify psychic powers so that they aren't broken when they go off, sure, but I'm not a fan of my centuries old farseer standing there with a constipated expression as he awkwardly fails to cast Doom even though he's been casting it for longer than the two of us combined have been alive. Back in the day, my warlock just got his psychic powers with no problem. Now, he has to roll multiple dice in order to cast his one power per turn, and his one wound makes him rather prone to dying from perils when he does so. So I can either roll a single die and give myself a 50/50 chance to sit there looking silly rather than doing cool space magic, or I can roll extra dice and risk having this be the one time in his centuries of throwing space magic around that he accidentally suffers perils.


Would it be fair to say that you're less concerned with people throwing lots of dice at a power to ensure that it goes off and more concerned with the fact that that power might be broken? For example, are you terribly worried that someone will throw extra dice at Smite, or is it Invisibility and its ilk that has you worried? If it's the latter, I think it might be better to simply nerf problem powers rather than pursuing this particular psychic system that you've proposed. People have pointed out that your proposed system has some (probably unintended) downsides. It seems like you'd be causing new problems in an effort to fix the real problem.

So, you would advocate for Farseers and such to auto-cast powers based on fluff?

Assuming we dealt with the real problem (some powers simply being too good), I'd be absolutely fine with this, though points might have to be tweaked accordingly. Having my badass psychic hero suddenly forget how to cast that power he's been using all day isn't all that fluffy or engaging, especially since it rarely feels like my opponent is actively acting upon my efforts to cast it. If I flub a psychic test, I flub a psychic test. Which always feels a bit awkward.

Although instead of auto-passing, I'd probably prefer a system where I'm likely to succeed on an Ld-based psychic test but also have the option to auto-pass the test if I accept Perils. I'm also a fan of having cruddy-but-non-lethal perils tables similar to those that the Corsairs have for some factions. A wyrd boy or human psyker exploding from his psychic powers is perfectly fluffy. Eldrad Ulthran or Ahriman suffering a similar fate is tonally dissonant.

So in the system I'd like to see, my 'Seer will cast multiple powers more often than not. He'll sometimes fail the psychic test (bending reality takes lots of concentration!), and he'll have the option to let out a dramatic scream as he harnesses more warp power to cast the power anyway, but then he'll perils. And then, instead of exploding because this was the one day that he pushed too hard, he'll instead spend the rest of the game at WS/BS1 representing intense mental fatigue, or he'll reduce his leadership or some other thing.

Wyldhunt wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I do use psychic powers quite a lot (between Grey Knights, Eldar, and Tzeentch Daemons perhaps more than anyone), but your proposal may actually be a massive buff. I try to focus on casting more reliable small powers rather than building battle plans around fishing for Invisibility, and giving my Warlocks and Brotherhood of Psykers units cast-on-3+ isn't exactly a nerf. Not to mention you're giving armies with more than one psyker more Warp Charge on average than they'd get under the current rules; if I'm bringing a Harlequin Masque with three ML1 Shadowseers I'd get d6+3 WC (average 6.5) now, under your system I'd get 3d3+3 (average 9).

My proposed system would only give D3+1 Warp Charge to each Masque. This would allow each Masque to roll between 2-4 dice to manifest their power given power (on a 3+ mind you). You seem to be referencing a pool effect like the system is now. You are right that it would be a buff to getting off powers easily, however, it would erase the "pool" effect that power gamers utilize now.

I think you might be confusing the term "Masque" for shadowseer. The Masque is the name of the detachment. So if you're generating d3+1 dice per Masque, that implies that you're using a pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

v0iddrgn wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Sorry for insulting you guys by not validating your concerns. Unfortunately, many of you make it sound like your armies would cease to function at all without manifesting multiple powers every turn. I feel sorry for you when changes to tone down the Psychic phase are likely to happen anyway in the next edition.

I for one would welcome a toning down of the psychic phase as there are, in fact, several very problematic powers out there. I'm not flustered that your changes would tone down psykers. I'm simply pointing out that your proposed solution would involve a lot of extra die rolling (to generate each unit's pool of dice) and would require a bit of extra bookkeeping as a result. Which I'm not a fan of. There's lots of bookkeeping already.

The concerns that others have pointed out are also quite valid. Let's say a ML2 librarian happens to roll, for instance, Endurance and Haemorrhage. Ignoring for a moment that haemorrhage is extremely weak, that librarian would only have a chance to cast both of his rolled powers if he happened to roll a 3 on a d3 under your system. And even then, his odds of getting both of them off are pretty bad. His chances of getting even one of them off aren't great either.

In the case of pulling off 2 or more powers in a single psychic phase, yeah, it should be harder to do. The more powerful the psyker the easier it becomes to do that. Your ML2 librarian would generate between 3-5 warp charge per turn, manifesting powers on a 3+. If you try to get both powers off and do then good on ya but I ask that you hearken back to 5th edition when you would have had to choose which power you wanted to use. I think that the smaller pool of dice makes the player have to make that 5th edition type of choice as to what is really the priority given the situation the game presents at the time. You can disagree and I don't mind... I did ask for thoughts after all.

That's the thing though. In 5th edition, a librarian could be upgraded to an Epistolary (or whatever it was called) and cast two powers a turn very reliably. He paid his points for his powers, and he paid his points to use two of them each turn, and then he did so barring an unfortunate leadership test. In the current rules a given psyker can't cast more powers than his ML, so a given librarian will only be casting two per turn unless he's Tigurius. Under your system, rolling two high WC powers might make it very difficult for a ML2 librarian to cast two powers.

5th edition: casting two powers is easy
Current rules: casting two powers by yourself is harder, but you can borrow dice from "batteries" to make it doable.
Your system: casting two powers is still harder than 5th edition, but you can't borrow dice from your pals, and you'll only have d3 random dice instead of d6.

So, what you're saying is that it is important to you that you cast multiple powers per psyker per turn? This is the problem with 40K right now. It has become "Space Magic 40,000" instead of the Warhammer I we grew up with. Preference, many players, like yourself, prefer to buff your armies with super powers over using tactics and strategy that doesn't solely rely on said powers.

The thing is that using lots of powers is downright fluffy for some armies! Having a psyker that doesn't cast a lot of powers per turn should be a perfectly good option, but so should having a psyker with daunting psychic might.

If I'm bringing Ahriman to the table, he's kind of *the* space marine battle wizard. Casting multiple powers a turn is not unreasonable. Unreasonable powers are unreasonable. What's so wrong about having a battle wizard that can throw a fireball and put up a psychic shield in the same turn?

Taking the right powers during list building is a form of strategy. Choosing how to use which powers in a given situation is part of tactics. You seem to be implying that people who like taking psyker-heavy armies are jerks with a poor grasp of how to play the game well that lean on overpowered spells as a crutch. I'm just pointing out that some people like to be able to reliably cast multiple powers a turn and that your proposed suggestion might be improved by some ammendments. And for the record, I don't tend to run "broken" powers even in my compeitive lists.

What specifically is it you're hoping to accomplish with your proposed rules? If you want to restrict the sheer number of powers a psyker cast cast, why? See above about a fireball and shield. What's intrinsically wrong with being able to reliably get off multiple powers a turn?

If you're trying to prevent people from putting a lot of dice into broken powers, why not target the broken powers insetad?

If you really just hate the idea of psykers pooling dice, fine, but why not look at an alternative to your own suggestion that doesn't make it difficult for a given psyker to cast multiple powers?

What is the real goal you're going for?

The difference is some armies now require Psychic powers as their core.

Tzeentch Daemons lost basically all their normal shooting attacks and they're now psychic powers. Under your system a unit of Pink Horrors is going to have a difficult time casting a Lvl 2 or Lvl 3 Flickering Flames. Sure, you can cast a lvl 1 version instead, but even then you're going to have a difficult time to actually hurt things. You might as well just take Plaguebearers and sit on Objectives all day, or take Daemonettes and not have to worry about 5-7 layers of random rolls to maybe kill a guy. (Generating Warp Charges, Manifesting Power, Deny the Witch, Rolling to Hit, Rolling to Wound and then Saves and maybe FnP).

Grey Knights aren't as worse off as pretty much all their powers known by basic units are WC1 , however Purifiers are going to struggle most of the time to cast Cleansing Flame and those Librarians and Grandmasters they pay good points for will be lucky if they can even cast one of the powers they know in addition to Force.

Also implying people who use Psychic powers are lesser players simply because they use more than 1 lvl 1 psyker is a bit insulting.


The main reason people use multiple Psykers beyond their armies requiring them to buy them (GK, Tzeentch Daemons, Thousand Sons, Ulthwe Eldar, etc.) is because they are either fishing for the 1 or 2 OP powers their Psykers can access (Invisibility, for example) or the other buffing options in their army are overcosted (there is no way in hell a Dark Apostle or Chaplain should cost more than a Sorcerer or Librarian, and yet they do). Once those are fixed the armies that do spam psykers but really shouldn't for fluff reasons won't need to.

EDIT: Also speaking of Ahriman... he costs nearly as much as a Land Raider to be one of the few lvl 4 Psykers in the game and to also have the unique ability to cast the same Witchfire up to 3 times a psychic phase. With these changes He'll be lucky to even cast 2 such Witchfires successfully (let alone any other powers) and do not much else.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The difference is some armies now require Psychic powers as there core.

Tzeentch Daemons lost basically all their normal shooting attacks and they're now psychic powers. Under your system a unit of Pink Horrors is going to have a difficult time casting a Lvl 2 or Lvl 3 Flickering Flames. Sure, you can cast a lvl 1 version instead, but even then you're going to have a difficult time to actually hurt things. You might as well just take Plaguebearers and sit on Objectives all day, or take Daemonettes and not have to worry about 5-7 layers of random rolls to maybe kill a guy. (Generating Warp Charges, Manifesting Power, Deny the Witch, Rolling to Hit, Rolling to Wound and then Saves and maybe FnP).

Grey Knights aren't as worse off as pretty much all their powers known by basic units are WC1 , however Purifiers are going to struggle most of the time to cast Cleansing Flame and those Librarians and Grandmasters they pay good points for will be lucky if they can even cast one of the powers they know in addition to Force.

Also implying people who use Psychic powers are lesser players simply because they use more than 1 lvl 1 psyker is a bit insulting.


The main reason people use multiple Psykers beyond their armies requiring them to buy them (GK, Tzeentch Daemons, Thousand Sons, Ulthwe Eldar, etc.) is because they are either fishing for the 1 or 2 OP powers their Psykers can access (Invisibility, for example) or the other buffing options in their army are overcosted (there is no way in hell a Dark Apostle or Chaplain should cost more than a Sorcerer or Librarian, and yet they do). Once those are fixed the armies that do spam psykers but really shouldn't for fluff reasons won't need to.

EDIT: Also speaking of Ahriman... he costs nearly as much as a Land Raider to be one of the few lvl 4 Psykers in the game and to also have the unique ability to cast the same Witchfire up to 3 times a psychic phase. With these changes He'll be lucky to even cast 2 such Witchfires successfully (let alone any other powers) and do not much else.

Well said! Have an exalt!

In the OP's first post, he says that he dislikes that you can currently use various psykers to throw lots of dice at problematic powers like invisibility and to throw lots of powers around in general. I totally get wanting to nerf problem powers. I'm just not sure why he seems to be so against letting a psyker use two or three powers a turn reliably if they're reasonably priced. My farseer is 100 points base, and his lack of especially scary wargear or high number of attacks means that most of those points are being spent on a really solid psyker. Why should an expensive psyker who's mostly on good at psykering not be able to psyker well?

It makes a fellow wonder if this is secretly part of some Khornate anti-psyker agenda. ;D

Alright, so to try to make this thread constructive, why don't we try to figure out what some good changes would be?

What about a risk versus reward system?
Mastery level = castable powers per turn.
To cast a power, you simply make a leadership test. Add +1 to this test for every successful power you cast this turn before attempting this one.
Roll higher than leadership and you fail the power. Roll 12+ and you Perils.
Even Ahriman casting his fourth power in a turn has slightly better than 50/50 odds of getting a power off.
This would represent the strain of casting multiple powers in a turn but keep things manageable.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Alright, so to try to make this thread constructive, why don't we try to figure out what some good changes would be?

As I see it, the major problems with the psychic phase are a handful of overpowered powers (Invisibility, Summoning, and rerollable saves being the prime three), Witchfire powers being generally underpowered, and the random power generation.

As far as OP powers go, Invisibility is easily fixed by swapping to something like the ITC version. Summoning is trickier. The ability to bring free models into the game is almost always extremely powerful, and a handful of builds (Tzeentch Daemons, Librarius Conclave, Psykana Division) are capable of churning out a large number of daemons very quickly. In general, I think the game would be in a better place if most of the free stuff (whether it's WarConvo wargear, Gladius's transports, or Daemon's daemons) was removed. For the rerollable saves, I think giving them limitations would be the way to go. Maybe make them both "reroll 1's for saving throws."

As far as Witchfire powers being underpowered, I think making them auto-hit would be the way to go. Many of the currently worthwhile Witchfire powers are the ones that auto-hit (Cleansing Flame, Tzeentch's Warpflare, Bolt of Change, Psychic Shriek, etc) Some will need to have the number of shots reduced to compensate, but this also helps to buff Orks and gives many armies a new anti-air avenue (something that GW has failed to adequately address despite fliers being an edition old at this point).

Random power generation isn't in itself all that much of a problem, it's more than many of the disciplines are filled with powers with little to no similarity in function. If I want to add some anti-horde firepower to my list, I'm screwed if I generate Flame Shield and Fiery Form. If I want to buff a CC unit, Hemorrhage and Life Leech aren't going to be very helpful. I'd recommend redoing each discipline as a more focused D3 table. I'd also add the Angels of Death/Traitor's Hate Powers in as generic disciplines.