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ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:Regarding C, it's not useless at all. The sequence goes like this:

1. Roll for all your reserves together.
2. Deploy a unit from this formation onto the table via deep strike.
3. Immediately make a shooting attack with the unit.
4. If the target is destroyed, immediately pick a new target.
5. Repeat steps 2-4 until all units from the formation are deployed.

So you can potentially kill multiple targets during the movement phase. Pity there aren't many weapons in a terminator squad worth firing multiple times in a turn.

So, if you have three units of terminators as per the minimum of this formation, and you deploy one unit, which destroys the target, you can deploy another unit elsewhere on the board?
Or can you deploy ALL units via Deep Strike, unload, and (if you kill the first target) deep strike elsewhere on the board next turn?

So say you have 3 Units of Termies, Units A, B, and C. Unit A deepstrikes in and has to make it's shooting attack immediately. It makes it, kills target. You now have to choose a new target. Now you may deepstrike unit B. If Unit B kills the new target, you have to choose a new target. Deep strike Unit C.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The clear answer is that a detahment may only containa single faction, by default. Marines then hav ea furhter restriction on the detachment having a single chapter tactic, however I do not believe Chaos has the same restriction

Thus CS CSM and BL CSM are still faction CSM

Wrong.

A detachment is either ENTIRELY CS, ENTIRELY BL, or ENTIRELY neither.

Just like you can't mix a few of them in one CAD, you cant mix several "subfactions" of formations in a single multi-formation-detachment.
Each is legal on its own (barring specific issues like CS and units that has VotOW), but they cannot be part of the same detachment.
The black crusade detachment, in it's entirety, must be relegated to a single "subfaction"

No, a supplement is the same faction that the parent codex is. They are not sub factions. Both supplements are literally CSM. Even the supplement only formations are CSM and have the appropriate faction symbol.

A CAD from a supplement is of faction CSM and ONLY faction CSM, but it gets the Supplement special rules, which force you to build your army in a certain way.

Subfactions aren't a thing to my knowledge. You are either a proper faction or take on the faction of your parent dex. Thus a CSM black crusade detachment limits your units to the csm codex but poses no further restrictions. Making an auxiliary a supplement formation in addition to the csm formation that it already is and stays, just adds further restrictions to that particular formation. It doesn't violate any rules.

 BoomWolf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The clear answer is that a detahment may only containa single faction, by default. Marines then hav ea furhter restriction on the detachment having a single chapter tactic, however I do not believe Chaos has the same restriction

Thus CS CSM and BL CSM are still faction CSM

Wrong.

A detachment is either ENTIRELY CS, ENTIRELY BL, or ENTIRELY neither.

Just like you can't mix a few of them in one CAD, you cant mix several "subfactions" of formations in a single multi-formation-detachment.
Each is legal on its own (barring specific issues like CS and units that has VotOW), but they cannot be part of the same detachment.
The black crusade detachment, in it's entirety, must be relegated to a single "subfaction"

Incorrect, you will notice you cited no rules.

BL are faction chaos marines. Thus they are not restricted from being in the same detachment as vanilla CSM.

Mix all you want.. vanilla chaos marines, black legion, crimson slaughter.. idk what that wolf guy is talking about, he is horribly WRONG.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Mix all you want.. vanilla chaos marines, black legion, crimson slaughter.. idk what that wolf guy is talking about, he is horribly WRONG.

I mean, not ALL you want. Each detachment/formation can only be one of the "sub-factions." Unless there is a way to have a formation that is both Black Legion AND Crimson Slaughter, but that just doesn't sit well with me (just opinion, if you can argue it I'll give it to ya). I only own the Black Legion supp, but I hear that Crimson Slaughter detachments can't have VotLW, and I know Black Legion units HAVE to take it.

So I follow the logic of using the Traitor's Hate Decurion, making formations within it CS or BL as desired provided doing so doesn't break restrictions. But if you make the Traitor's Hate Decurion CS or BL, then all the formations within it would be whatever you chose, because the whole mega-detachment got that affiliation applied to it.

I refer back to my picture. CSM detachments/formations become both csm and supplement, so technically you can apply both supplements to one formations or detachment. The only problem you run into is that none of them allow you to both take VotLW and not take VotLW at the same time. A hypothetical future formation might make it possible, who knows. Obviously not intended though.

The entire decurion becomes vanilla csm if that's what you take it as, and then you can turn the individual formations into their supplement version. You need to be careful about the non-formations though. Like the veterans of the legions. Those are bound to whatever the decurion is bound to.

Also, if you make the decurion a supplement detachment than all the models in that decurion are subject to the supplement rules, even if the sub formations aren't necessarily a supplement formation. So you wont't be able to mix if you do that. There isn't much of a benefit in doing so mind you. The hq in the command "formation" doesn't actually have be the warlord after all.

I also just realized that the command formation is 0-5, so you could take 5 daemon princes XD.

You completely and utterly misunderstood me, and then cited the very thing that proves me right.
Amusing actually.

A UNIT does not belong to a "subfaction" (note the use of brackets because subfaction isn't an official term, I define it as a set of rules that applies to an entire detachment, much like chapter tactics, black legion, farsight enclaves, etc.) , an entire formation or an entire detachment is.

Ergo, you cannot have in a single CAD both units that ARE Black Legion, and units that ARE NOT Black Legion.
Either everyone is Black Legion, or nobody is Black Legion. (in that formation/detachment)

Now, while each individual formation can be Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter or neither freely, your Black Crusade however can't contain formations that belong to different "subfactions" as it is all a single detachment, and the rules for the "subfaction" must be applied to the entire detachment, or not at all.
So one formation in the crusade is BL/CS, every other formation must also be so.


Also, a single detachment can't be both Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion not because any rules specifically forbids it, but because they got clashing restrictions, the first being forbidden from taking VotOW, and the later is forced to take it. There is simply no way to follow both sets of restrictions at once. (if it was possible to form an entire detachment that has no units that could take VotOW at all, it could technically work. but such setup does not exist.)

I'm not sure if you understood him correctly.
Example:
Your Black Crusade detachment is CSM, comprised of a warband that is CSM/BL and a Cult of Dextruction that is CSM/CS, nothing clashes. All parts of the detachment are CSM, and, as the rules allow, they are ALSO a certain subfaction. Their rules don't collide as they only apply to their formation, not the detachment. So you would have Oblits with fear, that can't use the free votlw. Or you could have a Chaos Lord with Daemonheart in the raptorformation as part of a Black Crusade detachment.

Yes, it does clashes on your example.

All parts are CSM, but the BL/CS rules must apply to the ENTIRE detachment, or none at all.
And as the entire Black Crusade is a single detachment, you can't have parts of the Black Crusade be Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter and some parts not be, just like a Tau Hunter Contingent can't have some of its formations Farsight Enclaves while others are not.

Yes, a stand-alone formation can take whatever "subfaction" he wants, but once you combine them to a Black Crusade, they are all one detachment, and as such need to adhere to detachment-wide rules.

In a CAD you can't mix supplements and vanilla per slot, since the entire detachment is either csm, BL and/or CS. The decurion is slightly different however. In two ways actually.
A CAD is not a csm detachment by default and so if you make it a Black Legion detachment it's a black legion detachment and only black legion. Which then applies a number of extra rules.
It's also comprised of roles, which you fill with individual units rather than formations.

Every model in the decurion is subject to whatever rules come with the supplement you choose, however it is always a csm detachment in addition to whatever supplement you choose. You don't even get a re-roll on the supplement warlord traits because it's written with vanilla csm in mind. All of the non-formations like the command formation are limited to whatever the decurion is declared as, just like in a CAD.
Unlike a CAD though, the decurion consists of individual formations. Those are csm formations by default. The supplements then allow you to make ANY csm formation ALSO into a supplement formation. Thus applying the supplement rules to that particular formation. They are normal formations, they don't somehow magically work different because they are part of a detachment.

So with an example, you take the decurion as vanilla csm. Say you take a command formation, that would then restricts those HQs to the vanilla dex relics since they can't benefit from the supplement.
Then you take a warband formation. This is by default also a csm formation and as such can become a supplement formation as well. Any HQ in that formation is now able to take the supplement relics and all models in that particular formation must adhere to the restrictions that particular formation gets in addition to being a csm formation. And given how a csm detachment actually means diddly squat, it doesn't interfere with either supplement restrictions.

Again, this is different from a CAD, the supplements only work on a detachment/formation level. You can't apply the supplement rules on a role level. And they work from the top down. A maelstrom of gore Black Legion formation applies it's rules to all models in that formation, it can't affect other formations or models.

Should you apply the supplement at the decurion level, it would still be a csm detachment, but all models in that decurion must adhere to the supplement special rules. You could STILL make a formation a CS formation. Because of our unit options, this doesn't actually work though.
However, it is actually possible to field such a CAD. Belakor is an hq that doesn't have VotLW nor does he have the option to take it, the same is true for cultists and CS are allowed to take all the cult units minus TSons, so you could use belakor, cultists, cult units and all sorts of vehicles. Of course it would be utterly pointless since the only benefit of doing so would be to unlock all relics on one character, but you can't actually take any relics.

So you when you take a csm decurion with a supplement formation, the decurion checks whether all models in it are of faction csm (they are) and then the maelstrom would further check whether the models in that have VotLW (in the case of BL) and if they do you're golden.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, it does clashes on your example.

All parts are CSM, but the BL/CS rules must apply to the ENTIRE detachment, or none at all.
And as the entire Black Crusade is a single detachment, you can't have parts of the Black Crusade be Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter and some parts not be, just like a Tau Hunter Contingent can't have some of its formations Farsight Enclaves while others are not.

Yes, a stand-alone formation can take whatever "subfaction" he wants, but once you combine them to a Black Crusade, they are all one detachment, and as such need to adhere to detachment-wide rules.

Which detachment wide rule is broken. Cite it.

Actually, we can take it a step further. You keep talking about subfactions when that concept simply doesn't exist.
There is no such thing as crimson slaughter possessed or black legion chosen. There are only formations and detachments that can be declared a supplement formation.
Being a CS detachment has no inherent function, but there are a number of special rules that affect units in a CS detachment. In the case of CS it prevents any model within that detachment to have VotLW and any possessed in that detachment have to use a different table from the vanilla possessed.

This actually means that you can't field CS possessed in an unbound army unless they are part of a formation, because there is no unit entry for CS possessed. There is only the slaves to the voices special rule which changes how possessed work in a CS detachment. And since there are no detachments in an unbound army there is no detachment to turn into a CS detachment and gain those rules. That's all there is to the supplements.
I suppose you could argue that your warlord is still considered to be part of the primary detachment and as such it would work but that's really besides the point.

So by using a vanilla Black Crusade detachment and then declaring that the warband is also a CS formation, the models in that warband are now affected by Harbingers of the tormented, Slaves to the voices and renegades of the dark millenium.
I don't see where you're getting this idea that these are somehow cascading special rules.

You seem to somehow misunderstand me yet.

My point being, is that because the supplement rules (And i can't for the life of me understand why the "subfaction" name confuses you. it doesn't mean anything else but the collective supplement rules) are applied on a DETACHMENT basis, and that the Black Crusade is just one detachment (and technically speaking, one formation that consist of multiple smaller formations), then the entire thing must have the rules for the "subfaction" apply, or not apply, because the CS/BL rules are noted to be applied to a detachment, not to a part of it.

Trying to say "well, the Back Crusade is core CSM, but the Warband alone is under supplement rules" doesn't work, because you have to apply the supplement to the entire detachment, or not at all. you can't just pick and choose what parts are supplement, just like you can't have a part of a CAD be a supplement.

Meaning, the entire thing is using the supplement, or the entire thing is not using the supplement-as a single detachment. the fact its "still CSM" is irrelevant to the question of whether the supplement itself is properly applied or not, and in your case it does not.


And for the love of god your avatar is distracting XD

Le sigh lol. We seem to be talking past each other.
The entire thing is either vanilla or vanilla+supplement. It is never only supplement.
Vanilla + supplement means every model in the entire thing has to follow the supplement rules. Pure vanilla means everything has to be a unit with faction CSM, period. It has no other restrictions.

In either case the entire thing is made up of other formations. In the case of pure vanilla that means that those can be csm+supplement. In which case they are still faction csm and don't violate any rule. They can coexist perfectly fine.
I made an illustration that might make more sense.

The only restriction the vanilla crusade detachment emplaces is that you use units from faction CSM. You then get the decurion command benefits.
Then you go ahead and take two warbands for example. You make one warband into vanilla+BL and the other vanilla+CS, because the rules say you can turn any vanilla formation into vanilla + supplement. The warbands are formations so you can use that rule.
Then the BL warband gets some additional special rules and the CS warband gets a different set of special rules.

The crusade restrictions apply to all models in both warbands, the extra special rules only apply to all models in their respective warband. All BL models that can take VotLW must take it, no model in the CS warband may have VotLW. Neither warband affects anything else in the crusade detachment. They can live happily next to each other without interfering with each other.

In this way you can mix the supplements in a black crusade detachment. On the flipside, when you use a vanilla+supplement crusade detachment the traitors hate special rule and friends apply to all models in the crusade detachment which is a lot more restricting.
You could technically even make it vanilla+supplement+supplement, but there is no way to select units such that you can adhere to both supplement rules. I gave an example where it is actually possible in a normal CAD.

You are spotlighting the fact that they are all CSM, and that what you say makes perfect sense from the prespective of the black crusade itself, yet completely brushing aside the simple fact you are ignoring how supplements work.

The supplement itself effects a detachment.
The two warbands in your chart, are both part of the SAME detachment.
If the detachment is not BL/CS, than NOTHING in that detachment is BL/CS. the fact the detachment is built out of several warbands simply does not change that fact.

I have a few questions:

1) If I use Favored Scions in the Chaos Warband, and roll two results, one of which turns my character into a Spawn or Prince, and the other which gives another non-transformative Boon, do I get to apply "both" to the same model? I would assume no, because they're technically different models.

2) Are Daemon Princes that transform from Dark Apotheosis part of the same detachment? Ex, could I then theoretically cast Boon of Mutation on one, and get the bonus from Favored Scions?

The early supplements did not allow using more than one supplement on a detachment. Did not BL and CS have this restriction as well?

 BoomWolf wrote:
You are spotlighting the fact that they are all CSM, and that what you say makes perfect sense from the prespective of the black crusade itself, yet completely brushing aside the simple fact you are ignoring how supplements work.

The supplement itself effects a detachment.
The two warbands in your chart, are both part of the SAME detachment.
If the detachment is not BL/CS, than NOTHING in that detachment is BL/CS. the fact the detachment is built out of several warbands simply does not change that fact.

I really don't know how I can make this any clearer.
I already posted a picture that allows you to say that ANY csm detachment or formation is ALSO a Supplment detachment/formation, aka in addition to being a csm detachment/formation.
Clearly a warband formation within a crusade detachment is a csm formation. As such you can make it a supplement formation.

The actual rules then look something like: "All models in a supplement formation or detachment must do so and so".
The warbands are supplement formations and so the rules apply to models/units in that that formation. They do NOT say : "any model/unit in an army containing a supplement formation must do so and so."

So clearly the rules only apply to the individual warband formations and the units therein in the case of my example.
A csm detachment applies no special rules or restrictions other than limiting you to csm units, which the supplement units are.

I gave you a rule that clearly states that you can have a supplement formation within another detachment. It makes no exception on when this is allowed.
Unless there is a rule that prevents you from doing so, mixing in supplement formations in a black crusade is legal.
I can't find anything in the brb or traitors hate that forces you to make all formations in a decurion/detachment the same type like you say. where are you getting this from?
The BRB has like one sentence on supplements, namely that they are of the same faction as their parent dex.
The supplements themselves only tell you that you can convert detachments/formations and traitor's hate says that units in the formations are also part of the detachment, not the other way round. They have the special rules of both, which doesn't introduce any conflicts.

Plus, the supplements only apply a few special rules to a formation, nothing more. Those formations and their units are no different from a normal csm formation from a rules perspective. Using a supplement is simply a matter of declaring that a formation is using the supplement rules.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:
The early supplements did not allow using more than one supplement on a detachment. Did not BL and CS have this restriction as well?

Scroll up, I added a picture of the relevant rule from the black legion supplement. They changed that part of the supplements in the newer versions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I have a few questions:

1) If I use Favored Scions in the Chaos Warband, and roll two results, one of which turns my character into a Spawn or Prince, and the other which gives another non-transformative Boon, do I get to apply "both" to the same model? I would assume no, because they're technically different models.

2) Are Daemon Princes that transform from Dark Apotheosis part of the same detachment? Ex, could I then theoretically cast Boon of Mutation on one, and get the bonus from Favored Scions?

1) I don't think that is actually covered by the rules beyond the active player controlling order of events. So I would allow it. A prince isn't meant to benefit from boons, but as long as you can let just about anything roll on the boon table via gift of mutation, I'd hardly consider this an issue. That's HIWPI mind you.

2) There was a thread about that not so long ago. IIRC the answer is yes. An ascended character would be part of the warband. Whether or not boon of mutation is affected by the favoured scions rule though is a different matter.

Last night something funny came up.

Me and a bud played a 2Vs3 game, 6000pts each side, my KDK ,his Black Legion using Traitor's Hate formation Vs 1 Guard army, 1DW/BA and 1000pts of Grey Knigths.

Very fluffy battle.

So my mate used the displacement power in the Geomortis discipline, he put a Termi Lord wiht its termi retinue in a ruin, he had the Dimensional Key, first turn, he use his power, to move the terrain, assault, and kill some models, with this he activates the key, hurray! no scatter in DS for everyone!.

This combo makes DSing units way more convinient, had my 2 termicide come in and pop leman russes like it was nothing thanks to that.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The early supplements did not allow using more than one supplement on a detachment. Did not BL and CS have this restriction as well?

Scroll up, I added a picture of the relevant rule from the black legion supplement. They changed that part of the supplements in the newer versions.

So, if I have access to the original book and it specifically states this, it makes your point invalid? The copy I have shows that limit in the bold section when the rules are first being introduced, which is not included in your screenshot.

It could also be said that you do not have permission to make a Crimson Slaughter Detachment as a Black Legion Detachment (or vice versa). It only applies to those that are solely showing up as a "Chaos Space Marines" Detachment. Kind of the same way I can't take an Apothecary and make him a Company Champion.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The early supplements did not allow using more than one supplement on a detachment. Did not BL and CS have this restriction as well?

Scroll up, I added a picture of the relevant rule from the black legion supplement. They changed that part of the supplements in the newer versions.

So, if I have access to the original book and it specifically states this, it makes your point invalid? The copy I have shows that limit in the bold section when the rules are first being introduced, which is not included in your screenshot.

I suppose so, but only if you allow using the older version though. Still it only prevents a detachment that is both black legion and crimson slaughter. The example with the dual warband would still be valid since formations are detachments, unless you're limiting that to "proper" detachments, in which case BoomWolf would be correct. In that case you couldn't use any formation with the supplement rules however, not even the ones from the newer supplements.
The old supplements say that you can only use one supplement when choosing a detachment. So you couldn't have a main supplement black crusade with formations from another, but can choose one warband in a vanilla crusade to be of a supplement and the another to be of a different supplement since they are separate detachments.

 Charistoph wrote:

It could also be said that you do not have permission to make a Crimson Slaughter Detachment as a Black Legion Detachment (or vice versa). It only applies to those that are solely showing up as a "Chaos Space Marines" Detachment. Kind of the same way I can't take an Apothecary and make him a Company Champion.

That is correct and all of the traitor's hate detachments and formations are chaos space marine detachments by default. The supplements then make them csm and supplement formations, which is why they would still count as csm formations for the other supplement to make dual supplement formation, however pointless that would be.

That's not the point tough. A csm Black crusade with a warband that applies BL rules and one that applies CS rules is not using double supplements. The crusade is pure csm, the BL warband is using BL rules and the other CS rules. And both warbands are still using csm rules.
From the point of view of each warband the other may as well not exist. They only care about the detachment they belong to, which is csm, which is totally fine.

I fail to see how this would cause any conflict.

 Roknar wrote:
I suppose so, but only if you allow using the older version though. Still it only prevents a detachment that is both black legion and crimson slaughter. The example with the dual warband would still be valid since formations are detachments, unless you're limiting that to "proper" detachments, in which case BoomWolf would be correct. In that case you couldn't use any formation with the supplement rules however, not even the ones from the newer supplements.
The old supplements say that you can only use one supplement when choosing a detachment. So you couldn't have a main supplement black crusade with formations from another, but can choose one warband in a vanilla crusade to be of a supplement and the another to be of a different supplement since they are separate detachments.

Sure if a new edition of the book was made. Was a new Black Legion supplement made?

I haven't followed 40K news for a couple months, so I honestly do not know.

 Roknar wrote:
That is correct and all of the traitor's hate detachments and formations are chaos space marine detachments by default. The supplements then make them csm and supplement formations, which is why they would still count as csm formations for the other supplement to make dual supplement formation, however pointless that would be.

That's not the point tough. A csm Black crusade with a warband that applies BL rules and one that applies CS rules is not using double supplements. The crusade is pure csm, the BL warband is using BL rules and the other CS rules. And both warbands are still using csm rules.
From the point of view of each warband the other may as well not exist. They only care about the detachment they belong to, which is csm, which is totally fine.

I fail to see how this would cause any conflict.

I thought that the point was to have two different supplements both providing their benefits to one detachment, not just different parts of a detachment (only possible because of the odd state of the Choice-based detachments).

The problem is, the supplements do not allow them to be active in only part of a detachment. Sure, you are fulfilling it when assigning it to one Formation of the Detachment, but you violate it by restricting it to only that part of the Detachment and not the larger whole detachment.

May as well have your Troops as Black Legion and your Elites as Crimson Slaughter for all the end results will look like.

Black legion was updated. Added in the cyclopian cabal for one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black legion was updated. Added in the cyclopian cabal for one.

And per standard GW practice did not take down the 2014 Erratas. Awesome.

Thank you.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I suppose so, but only if you allow using the older version though. Still it only prevents a detachment that is both black legion and crimson slaughter. The example with the dual warband would still be valid since formations are detachments, unless you're limiting that to "proper" detachments, in which case BoomWolf would be correct. In that case you couldn't use any formation with the supplement rules however, not even the ones from the newer supplements.
The old supplements say that you can only use one supplement when choosing a detachment. So you couldn't have a main supplement black crusade with formations from another, but can choose one warband in a vanilla crusade to be of a supplement and the another to be of a different supplement since they are separate detachments.

Sure if a new edition of the book was made. Was a new Black Legion supplement made?

I haven't followed 40K news for a couple months, so I honestly do not know.

Yea, both supplements got an update that changed the rules slightly and gave them formations.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
That is correct and all of the traitor's hate detachments and formations are chaos space marine detachments by default. The supplements then make them csm and supplement formations, which is why they would still count as csm formations for the other supplement to make dual supplement formation, however pointless that would be.

That's not the point tough. A csm Black crusade with a warband that applies BL rules and one that applies CS rules is not using double supplements. The crusade is pure csm, the BL warband is using BL rules and the other CS rules. And both warbands are still using csm rules.
From the point of view of each warband the other may as well not exist. They only care about the detachment they belong to, which is csm, which is totally fine.

I fail to see how this would cause any conflict.

I thought that the point was to have two different supplements both providing their benefits to one detachment, not just different parts of a detachment (only possible because of the odd state of the Choice-based detachments).

The problem is, the supplements do not allow them to be active in only part of a detachment. Sure, you are fulfilling it when assigning it to one Formation of the Detachment, but you violate it by restricting it to only that part of the Detachment and not the larger whole detachment.

May as well have your Troops as Black Legion and your Elites as Crimson Slaughter for all the end results will look like.

How is that a violation? What rule is forcing you to make the encompassing detachment also into a supplement detachment? Neither of you have explained why you think this is.

The only question you have to ask for the supplement rules is whether or not the units in question are in a supplement formation. To which the answer is yes.
Units in a formation inside a black crusade detachment are part of two detachments. The individual formation and the crusade. They don't form a new mixed detachment if that makes sense.
This is different to normal detachments and only works because of the rules of black crusade detachment.

So a unit in the BL warband is part of a BL formation and thus is subject to those rules. It is also subject to the rules of the crusade detachment. The crusade stands on it's own though, units in the crusade are not subjects to the rules of the formations that make up the crusade.

Mathematically speaking, the warband is a subset of the crusade. Units in the warband are part of both, but if you ask the question: Is this unit part of a black legion detachment? The answer is yes, regardless of what it is a part of. Is it part of the crusade? Yes, again regardless of what "sub formation" it is in.
The supplement rules ask exactly that question. Is this model/unit part of a supplement formation? Neither supplement cares about anything else.
Where are you getting the notion from that the crusade needs to also become a supplement formation?

I mean, the brb only says that supplement is the same faction as it's parent dex. it also says a unit can't belong to two detachments.
The supplement says you can declare a csm detachment to also be a supplement formation. A supplement formation is essentially just a name. They also have rules that apply to units in such detachments.
Traitor's hate allows you to override the brb rule where a unit can't be part of two detachments and provides a detachment made up of formations.

None of that prevents a formation in the black crusade to be a supplement formation.
Am I missing something or which part exactly are we in disagreement of?

Oh and the part about toops being black legion and elites crimson slaughter doesn't work. I touched on that earlier in the thread. You can only apply the rules to a detachment or formation as a whole. Which the warband formation is. A battlefield role is not.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
That is correct and all of the traitor's hate detachments and formations are chaos space marine detachments by default. The supplements then make them csm and supplement formations, which is why they would still count as csm formations for the other supplement to make dual supplement formation, however pointless that would be.

That's not the point tough. A csm Black crusade with a warband that applies BL rules and one that applies CS rules is not using double supplements. The crusade is pure csm, the BL warband is using BL rules and the other CS rules. And both warbands are still using csm rules.
From the point of view of each warband the other may as well not exist. They only care about the detachment they belong to, which is csm, which is totally fine.

I fail to see how this would cause any conflict.

I thought that the point was to have two different supplements both providing their benefits to one detachment, not just different parts of a detachment (only possible because of the odd state of the Choice-based detachments).

The problem is, the supplements do not allow them to be active in only part of a detachment. Sure, you are fulfilling it when assigning it to one Formation of the Detachment, but you violate it by restricting it to only that part of the Detachment and not the larger whole detachment.

May as well have your Troops as Black Legion and your Elites as Crimson Slaughter for all the end results will look like.

How is that a violation? What rule is forcing you to make the encompassing detachment also into a supplement detachment? Neither of you have explained why you think this is.

I thought I said it quite clearly. Can you have these supplements only affect part of a detachment, or does it have to affect a detachment, as in the whole detachment?

 Roknar wrote:
The only question you have to ask for the supplement rules is whether or not the units in question are in a supplement formation. To which the answer is yes.
Units in a formation inside a black crusade detachment are part of two detachments. The individual formation and the crusade. They don't form a new mixed detachment if that makes sense.
This is different to normal detachments and only works because of the rules of black crusade detachment.

But if this Formation is part of another Detachment, then THAT Detachment is only partially pointed out as being joined to this supplement, and thus where the problem lies.

 Roknar wrote:
So a unit in the BL warband is part of a BL formation and thus is subject to those rules. It is also subject to the rules of the crusade detachment. The crusade stands on it's own though, units in the crusade are not subjects to the rules of the formations that make up the crusade.

Mathematically speaking, the warband is a subset of the crusade. Units in the warband are part of both, but if you ask the question: Is this unit part of a black legion detachment? The answer is yes, regardless of what it is a part of. Is it part of the crusade? Yes, again regardless of what "sub formation" it is in.
The supplement rules ask exactly that question. Is this model/unit part of a supplement formation? Neither supplement cares about anything else.
Where are you getting the notion from that the crusade needs to also become a supplement formation?

Because either a supplement is for the entire detachment or it allowed to affect a partial detachment. If it is only affecting a Formation that is a Choice of a Detachment, then that supplement is only affecting a portion of that Detachment. Units in a Choice-based Detachment are part of two different Detachments (as noted in their rules).

 Roknar wrote:
Oh and the part about toops being black legion and elites crimson slaughter doesn't work. I touched on that earlier in the thread. You can only apply the rules to a detachment or formation as a whole. Which the warband formation is. A battlefield role is not.

Then you misunderstood the point of it. The Choices of a Choice-based Detachment like the Decurion occupy the same purpose as the Role slots in a Role-based Detachment. When looking at the Crusade with one or more, but not all, Formations as being a Black Legion Detachment, but not the whole Crusade, it is the equivalent of looking at a Combined Arms Detachment with only one or two Roles being part of the Black Legion, but not all of them.

In other words, you are looking at it from the bottomside-up, and I am looking at it from the topside-down. The individual Warband Formations can be supplement exclusive, no problem, but when joined as part of a Crusade, the rest of THAT detachment must also be in line otherwise the Crusade is a Detachment with only part of of its units as coming from that supplement.

Do you understand?

Sorry, I was probably editing my response before you answered, so could you respond to this as well before I answer?

"I mean, the brb only says that supplement is the same faction as it's parent dex. it also says a unit can't belong to two detachments.
The supplement says you can declare a csm detachment to also be a supplement formation. A supplement formation is essentially just a name. They also have rules that apply to units in such detachments.
Traitor's hate allows you to override the brb rule where a unit can't be part of two detachments and provides a detachment made up of formations.

None of that prevents a formation in the black crusade to be a supplement formation.
Am I missing something or which part exactly are we in disagreement of? "

 Roknar wrote:
Sorry, I was probably editing my response before you answered, so could you respond to this as well before I answer?

"I mean, the brb only says that supplement is the same faction as it's parent dex. it also says a unit can't belong to two detachments.
The supplement says you can declare a csm detachment to also be a supplement formation. A supplement formation is essentially just a name. They also have rules that apply to units in such detachments.
Traitor's hate allows you to override the brb rule where a unit can't be part of two detachments and provides a detachment made up of formations.

None of that prevents a formation in the black crusade to be a supplement formation.
Am I missing something or which part exactly are we in disagreement of? "

The BRB is not in question here. It is the rules of the Black Legion itself which is in question. Per its own statement you provided, the Black Legion supplement works on Chaos Space Marine detachments. Nothing in it states that it works on Crimson Slaughter Detachments.

In addition, it does not state that it works on just part of Chaos Space Marine Detachments, which is what would allow it to be used on a a single Choice Formation of a Choice Detachment like the Black Crusade. Remember, that by using a Choice Detachment, the Formation is not an independent Formation, but also part of another Detachment as well, and we still have to recognize it in all parts of how we are applying supplement rules.

Thanks for replying. finally geting somehwere with this.
The black legion supplement works on a csm detachment, as does the crimson slaughter and given how the detachment doesn't stop being a csm detachment, the CS supplement allows you to declare it as a CS detachment as well in it's own right. Both only care about the detachment being a csm detachment. They don't provide any restriction like the old supplements did.

It seem we disagree on the part about choice formations. From my point of view, a choice formation isn't any different than a normal formation. As such you can apply the supplement to such a formation and that's it. It isn't concerned about being part of a larger detachment. And as it is still a csm formation, the crusade detachment is also legal.
The units making up the formation are part of the formation and part of the crusade detachment and are subject to the rules of both. That alone doesn't cause a conflict.
There are no rules that say you can't have mixed formations, or battlefield roles for that matter. The only reason you can't have mixed battlefield roles is because the supplements only work on detachments and formations. It's not actually forbidden.

The supplements aren't being applied to only part for a detachment or formation, they are being applied to the entirety of the choice formation. The rules specifically allow you to apply this to both formations and detachments.

You said that mixing is the equivalent of having mixed battlefield roles. The only rules governing how choice formations work is in their respective books. Traitor's hate says the crusade detachment is a mix of specific formations and army list entries instead of battlefield roles. Some compulsory, some optional. And that units in a formation that is part of the crusade is part of both. That's it. It doesn't say anything about treating those formations differently than individual formations. It doesn't impose any additional restrictions.

Additionally, it works both from the top down and from the bottom up. From the top, the crusade is a csm detachment made up of formations. Using my example, it is made up of 2 warband formations ( and let's just throw in a spawn to make it legal). If you make those two formations supplement formations, nothing changes. It is still made up of 2 core formations. And from the bottom up a unit is part of a formation and the detachment. Assuming the unit is of faction csm and can follow the supplement rules, it's good.

The only difference between a purely csm formation and a supplement formation is that the supplement formations have an additional restriction,such as:"This is Black Legion formation". That is literally the only difference between a supplement formation and a csm formation. From an army organisational perspective they are identical.
The formations don't even get additional rules per se. The supplement rules exist outside of the formation so to speak and apply to units within a supplement formation, they aren't formation special rules in the ordinary sense.

I guess my point is that a supplement formation is only different from a unit's perspective. They don't change how you organize your army, they only change how some units work.
A supplement formation only adds a restriction. That restriction has no more effect on it's encasing detachment than the restriction saying the raptor talon lord needs a jump pack.
I believe I get where you're coming from now, but RAW doesn't support your version. It may not be intended this way but there is no rule that prohibits you from having choice formations with additional restrictions. And that is the only difference between a supplement formation and a regular formation. Provided of course you can still make legal unit configurations.