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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 02:41:12
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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Since 2013, lawyers have been able to serve lawsuits via Facebook, LinkedIn, and email. Now the avenues have been broadened to include Twitter.
I wonder how long it will be until forums like Dakka are declared suitable vehicles for service?
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-10-06/accused-terror-financier-can-be-served-lawsuit-via-twitter-judge-rules
The article contains some pictures and a video I did not copy/paste here.
Steven Nelson wrote:Evildoers of Twitter Beware: You Can Now Be Served Lawsuits in a Tweet
Evading U.S. litigation just got more difficult for people living overseas.
A Kuwaiti religious leader who allegedly raised money for jihadist rebels in Syria appears poised to become the first person served a U.S. lawsuit via Twitter.
Hajjaj bin Fahd al-Ajmi has been a hard man to reach for a lawyer seeking compensation in a northern California federal court on behalf of hundreds of thousands of Assyrian Christians who own property in Iraq and Syria.
U.S. Magistrate Judge Laurel Beeler, resolving the impasse, found al-Ajmi has “an active Twitter account and continues to use it,” offering the “method of service most likely to reach" him to satisfy the service of process requirement for the case to move forward.
Al-Ajmi is accused by both the U.S. government and the U.N. Security Council of funneling money to armed terrorists.
Service via social network is not unprecedented, and Beeler leaned on rulings in at least two other cases to justify the novel delivery mechanism.
Previously, a federal judge in New York in 2014 allowed service via Facebook, LinkedIn and email to a Turkish citizen in a trademark dispute. In 2013, a federal judge in Virginia allowed the Federal Trade Commission to serve notice on five alleged fraudsters living in India via Facebook and email.
“I think it’s going to have a tremendous effect,” says Mogeeb Weiss, who represents the plaintiffs on behalf of the California-based non-profit St. Francis Assisi, which is made up of affiliated churches.
“You have a Twitter account and are trying to avoid service? Now I can just get you on Twitter, it’s huge. You can just serve them there on the spot," he says, noting though that attorneys still will have to show first that more traditional methods failed.
Al-Ajmi is a co-defendant in the pending lawsuit along with two banks he allegedly used to funnel money, sometimes raised with video and tweeted appeals, to Syria's Nusra Front.
The Nusra Front, a powerful rebel army formed in 2011, was originally a project of the al-Qaida-affiliated Islamic State of Iraq. It split in 2013 from its parent, with the rebranded Islamic State proclaiming a caliphate the next year over wide swaths of Iraq and Syria while Nusra continued to partner with other Syrian rebels, remaining loyal to al-Qaida until at least July.
The original relationship between Nusra and Islamic State terrorists entitles Assyrian victims of the latter to financial compensation, Weiss tells U.S. News.
Assyrians are a large minority in northeastern Syria and northern Iraq. Hundreds were kidnapped when the Islamic State marauded through their villages in Syria and thousands more continue to be exiled from the historically Assyrian Nineveh plains east of Mosul in Iraq.
Weiss notes the judge did not specify a Twitter handle. He says he intends to tweet a link next week to two accounts associated with the target: @hajjaj_alajmi, which currently is suspended, and @hajjaj1407, which has recent Arabic language tweets. He says even if al Ajmi closed that Twitter account before he is served, the sheikh will see the tweet through its direction at some other organization with which he's associated.
Santa Clara University law professor Eric Goldman writes in a blog post that defendants plausibly could block incoming tweets, creating a due process dilemma. But he also write: "For all of those clamoring for social media sites to censor terrorists more vigorously, the court’s approval of service of process via social media provides an important counter-narrative about the value of keeping communication lines open."
The pending lawsuit, filed in June, says Assyrians have “been systematically subjected to unprovoked killings and displacement into refugee camps” and that defendants financed a group that “killed, injured, and maimed civilians and continue to do so even inside the United States.”
The two defendant banks are Turkey-based Kuveyt-Turk Participation Bank Inc. and Kuwait-based Kuwait Finance House. The lawsuit says the Kuwaiti-government-created institution owns more than 60 percent of Kuveyt-Turk Participation Bank, the institution to which al-Ajmi publicly solicited funds.
Weiss says the recently enacted Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act, which creates a new exception to lawsuit-derailing sovereign immunity when a foreign government so much as recklessly or indirectly aids terrorist attacks within the U.S., could help the case.
Though JASTA was passed by Congress overwhelmingly in the first veto override of Barack Obama’s presidency with the intention of allowing 9/11 victims to sue Saudi Arabia, the Kuwaiti state’s bank stake places it on the hook, Weiss says.
The lawsuit does say Islamic State group attacks have occurred within the U.S., but Weiss says JASTA’s lower threshold for liability also could kick in because the plaintiff entity is based in the U.S.
Fahad Habib, an attorney for the banks, declined to comment on the lawsuit.
The operator of the still-active Twitter account identified by Weiss as belonging al-Ajmi did not immediately respond to a tweet requesting comment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 03:08:33
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Doesnt a notice to serve have to be guaranteed to reach the intended recipient by law.
Facebook accounts et al are often used by third parties. This is quite common in controlling relationships, and couled otherwise occur via hacking.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 05:00:21
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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Apparently if you can show the recipient is a current and active user of said social media, that's good enough.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 05:18:22
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Breotan wrote:Apparently if you can show the recipient is a current and active user of said social media, that's good enough.
If a judge reviews it and confirms that the account is actively used by the intended recipient, and there is no other practical way of making contact, then it is a little unusual but seems okay. It would crazy for this to become a routine method, but there seems no indication that is likely.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 05:23:48
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Douglas Bader
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Breotan wrote:Apparently if you can show the recipient is a current and active user of said social media, that's good enough.
As long as you can demonstrate in court that conventional methods of delivery have been tried and failed. So this is almost never going to apply.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 06:58:48
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Montreal
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Orlanth wrote:Doesnt a notice to serve have to be guaranteed to reach the intended recipient by law.
Facebook accounts et al are often used by third parties. This is quite common in controlling relationships, and couled otherwise occur via hacking.
Law enforcement could OSINT various media accounts, then check for conformities. If the latest Facebook post is a just-taken vid of a parade in Brasil, but Twitter is covering Trumps latest mishap, you can assume one of the two has been sold on Fameswap.
Security analysts, headhunters and detectives have been doing this for years. You can do it for free with Recon- NG, if you are à l'aise with Python or Kali.
So hopefully law enforcement knows they can do it too!
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/07 07:15:48
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 12:55:45
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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sebster wrote: Breotan wrote:Apparently if you can show the recipient is a current and active user of said social media, that's good enough.
If a judge reviews it and confirms that the account is actively used by the intended recipient, and there is no other practical way of making contact, then it is a little unusual but seems okay. It would crazy for this to become a routine method, but there seems no indication that is likely.
This. Alternative service has been around a looooong time and this is no stranger than service by publication.
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-James
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 13:24:47
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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Breotan wrote:Apparently if you can show the recipient is a current and active user of said social media, that's good enough.
Rings alarm bells to me.
Sometimes an oppressive partner might be using the social media in their partners name. I know one such ugly ugly case, as this person was also the direct and undeserved cause of their partners police problems, so I can see BIG problems with this if its rolled out in the UK. A notice to serve could be delivered via social media intercepted by the cause of the problem and deleted without informing the subject of the summons. I am pretty damn sure this is how it would play out too if the partner got the info first.
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n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 13:34:29
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Calculating Commissar
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How do they know it's been read and accepted?
For instance, Facebook doesn't actually show you messages from unconnected people. Twitter users may be flooded with messages.
I know that if I got a tweet about being served notice, I'd ignore it as spam.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 13:39:27
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?
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I'm surprised Frazzled isn't all "back in my day, we served notice by smoke signal or wiener-gram."
Anyway, just sounds like a modern way of putting the notice in the newspaper ads.
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"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 14:07:49
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Longtime Dakkanaut
On a surly Warboar, leading the Waaagh!
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Tannhauser42 wrote:I'm surprised Frazzled isn't all "back in my day, we served notice by smoke signal or wiener-gram."
Anyway, just sounds like a modern way of putting the notice in the newspaper ads.
Pretty much it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 14:11:39
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Confessor Of Sins
WA, USA
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But....but....!
Kids these days!
How can I shake my cane at them?!
Yeah, seriously, this is just an evolution of something that has been around already. Outrage machine news reporting as usual.
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Ouze wrote:
Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 14:24:23
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Tannhauser42 wrote:I'm surprised Frazzled isn't all "back in my day, we served notice by smoke signal or wiener-gram."
Anyway, just sounds like a modern way of putting the notice in the newspaper ads.
Back in my day we just sent a pack of wolves to eat one of their family members.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 14:32:50
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Lady of the Lake
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Tannhauser42 wrote:I'm surprised Frazzled isn't all "back in my day, we served notice by smoke signal or wiener-gram."
Anyway, just sounds like a modern way of putting the notice in the newspaper ads.
Back in his day it would have just been trial by combat, so no need to serve.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 14:42:03
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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and by combat we mean whoever outruns the hyenadon wins ( and lives)
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 14:57:37
Subject: Re:You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Courageous Grand Master
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"Evading U.S. litigation just got more difficult for people living overseas.
A Kuwaiti religious leader who allegedly raised money for jihadist rebels in Syria appears poised to become the first person served a U.S. lawsuit via Twitter.
Hajjaj bin Fahd al-Ajmi has been a hard man to reach for a lawyer seeking compensation in a northern California federal court on behalf of hundreds of thousands of Assyrian Christians who own property in Iraq and Syria. "
Proof, if any were needed, that super powers make their own rules.
Why is the USA getting involved in this?
Yeah, I know they went to a California court, but a few years back, when I had a neighbor dispute to sort out, I don't remember getting a lawyer in Texas to petition a Texas court to sort this out!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/07 14:58:01
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 16:48:11
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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I suppose different jurisdictions have different policies but normally I don't think accepting or reading the notice is required, just proof that it has been delivered to the recipient.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 19:51:50
Subject: Re:You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Good thing I don't Linkdn, Facebook... all my online persona is generally anonymous.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/07 21:40:16
Subject: Re:You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:"Evading U.S. litigation just got more difficult for people living overseas.
A Kuwaiti religious leader who allegedly raised money for jihadist rebels in Syria appears poised to become the first person served a U.S. lawsuit via Twitter.
Hajjaj bin Fahd al-Ajmi has been a hard man to reach for a lawyer seeking compensation in a northern California federal court on behalf of hundreds of thousands of Assyrian Christians who own property in Iraq and Syria. "
Proof, if any were needed, that super powers make their own rules.
Why is the USA getting involved in this?
Yeah, I know they went to a California court, but a few years back, when I had a neighbor dispute to sort out, I don't remember getting a lawyer in Texas to petition a Texas court to sort this out!
Now how can this Hajjaj bin Fahd al-Ajmi ever have his day in court though? he's probably on the no fly list
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/08 00:56:58
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Douglas Bader
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Orlanth wrote:Sometimes an oppressive partner might be using the social media in their partners name. I know one such ugly ugly case, as this person was also the direct and undeserved cause of their partners police problems, so I can see BIG problems with this if its rolled out in the UK. A notice to serve could be delivered via social media intercepted by the cause of the problem and deleted without informing the subject of the summons. I am pretty damn sure this is how it would play out too if the partner got the info first.
But, again, this can only be uses if the conventional methods for delivering the notice have been tried and failed. You can't just say "well, I'll tweet this to them" as your first attempt. The only time you would have this happen is if the target of the notice is deliberately evading it (someone in another country with a hidden address, etc) and can't be reached through any other method. It would be very rare to have to use the last resort option of social media, and even rarer to have a case where someone maliciously intercepts it. It's really a non-issue once you look at the details.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2024/05/08 15:11:53
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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Now, I'm not a legal expert and I won't pretend to be...but what good is sending a Twitter lawsuit to somebody overseas, who isn't a US citizen? I mean...unless you're trying to get them to die of laughter. Wouldn't you be better served contacting their nation's embassy here, and work with them to get the offending individual to face justice? Sending a Twitter or FB summons seems like mooning a tsunami. You can do it...but the thing you're dealing with just doesn't care. Just seems like a pointless back-pat for nothing.
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Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/09 13:35:09
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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timetowaste85 wrote:Now, I'm not a legal expert and I won't pretend to be...but what good is sending a Twitter lawsuit to somebody overseas, who isn't a US citizen? I mean...unless you're trying to get them to die of laughter. Wouldn't you be better served contacting their nation's embassy here, and work with them to get the offending individual to face justice? Sending a Twitter or FB summons seems like mooning a tsunami. You can do it...but the thing you're dealing with just doesn't care. Just seems like a pointless back-pat for nothing.
I'm sure that nobody has any expectation that he will actually answer the summons. But you still have to show that they were served notice so that you can proceed with the lawsuit even if they don't answer or respond. After that, it's up to them to decide to respond or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/09 14:08:04
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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timetowaste85 wrote:Now, I'm not a legal expert and I won't pretend to be...but what good is sending a Twitter lawsuit to somebody overseas, who isn't a US citizen? I mean...unless you're trying to get them to die of laughter. Wouldn't you be better served contacting their nation's embassy here, and work with them to get the offending individual to face justice?
I've never understood how that works, like how Roman Polanski sued Vanity Fair in UK while living in Paris. How did he collect? Why was there any jurisdiction?
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/09 14:14:59
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Ouze wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Now, I'm not a legal expert and I won't pretend to be...but what good is sending a Twitter lawsuit to somebody overseas, who isn't a US citizen? I mean...unless you're trying to get them to die of laughter. Wouldn't you be better served contacting their nation's embassy here, and work with them to get the offending individual to face justice?
I've never understood how that works, like how Roman Polanski sued Vanity Fair in UK while living in Paris. How did he collect? Why was there any jurisdiction?
I imagine that Vanity Fair does have offices and business in the UK as well, so the court would be able to collect there pretty easily.
As for jurisdiction, that's a legitimate question.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/09 21:06:42
Subject: You can have a lawsuit served to you via social media
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Calculating Commissar
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Breotan wrote:
I suppose different jurisdictions have different policies but normally I don't think accepting or reading the notice is required, just proof that it has been delivered to the recipient.
I thought most required confirmation that the served got it, traditionally by confirming their identity and placing it in their hand. How do you confirm a tweet is delivered, and more than a letter through a door is?
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