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 Xenomancers wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.

-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.

Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.

Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.

almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.

Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.

Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?


So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.

I love guardians. Seriously overlooked because for the cost of 3 of them you can get a scatter bike. I take them in the battle-host which basically turns them into jump infantry because they have an auto 6 inch run and can shoot after they run.
That's a lot rending shots. Every army needs chaf - eldar chaf can bring down storm surges and wraithknights though...see - not really "toned down".

Warwalkers are awesome - nuff said. Overshadowed by another super OP unit (hornets) would be auto include in any other army.

Only that to kill a wraithknight you'd need 81 shots (factoring to hit and to wound rolls, FNP and the number of wounds). That's two maxed out squads of guardians. At 12'' inches. I'm pretty sure that they'll bring it down, no doubt. Specially them dying like bitches to bolter fire.

Lord Kragan wrote:

-You mean a unit that has to fight at point-blank range (6'') to be effective all while being squishy as feth? A unit that is A1 S3 regularly and at best A2 S6 IF they charge? They also don't have fleet nor hit and run (ravenwing says hi) so their main utility is pray you killed them, which won't happen as they have too few attacks and body count. Oh did I mention that they can't use both profiles in a single turn so if they shot they are going to be gangraped if they (read: WILL) get charged?

By Point blank range you meant 12" right? because they don't have to chuck that spear they can use that Catapult and get 2 S4 shots with Bladestorm each. So they shoot 6 shots total, get 4 hits and 2-3 wounds and a pretty good chance of a bladestorm hit so 1-2 dead marines, In CC they will get the charge because they are JET BIKES so 6 attacks at I5 =3 hits and 1-2 dead Marines before the Marines even get to swing back. So that means that the SM player lost 50% of his unit before he is even allowed to hit back not bad. As for squishy? T4 model with 3+ Armor and 4+ jink is fragile? I hate to see what you think of OP units then As far as Ravenwing? So your complaining that they aren't as good as a biker army who specialize in bikes........your making my point for me.

Lord Kragan wrote:

-You think that for ALMOST the cost of a leman russ executioner you'd get more than one blast. Sure it doesnt overheat but you're paying 130pts for a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat, that's really point efficient, isn't it?.Sure the lance is penning on 4s. IF it hits. It takes 3 bloody rounds to achieve that thing you're saying it's so good about them. S5 is bad because it isn't enough to ID T3 models and has issues wounding T4 and above.

Well no, your paying 130pts for the utility of having a S5 AP3 Large blast a S7 Ap2 Small blast or a S9 AP1 Lance shot, In essence its a tank destroyer that can drop pie plates or focus on elite infantry if necessary, or put another way, its a jack of all trades. (Actually more like a journeyman or whatever before a master)

Lord Kragan wrote:

-It's not me being dense or lying it's you conflating things: they ARE tissue paper. If you think that AV12 AT BEST (and generally 10 in most vehicles) is strong go back to warhammer 101. Sacrificing all its offensive power to "maybe" survive those 6 immobilize results doesn't make them tougher, that just stalls their demise as they've been neutered. Where's that non-heating blasting going to sh- oh wait, yeah snapfiring, cannot shoot!

Its a choice you make, that or you can pay the 15pts or whatever to give the vehicle a 5++ (most armies would salivate to get that kind of CHEAP Invul on vehicles). You seem to forget that if im shooting at you, you get to choose if you jink or not. So as the shooter I have to prioritize enough fire power in order for you to HAVE to jink, not an easy task against AV12 and generally speaking I will only get 1-3 units to Jink at best, and guess what? All that jinking means more enemy units survive to shoot again, albeit with snapshots (probably TL snapshots)

Lord Kragan wrote:

-you're paying 35 points for a T3 W1 model that has 1 shot at 12''. It has one shot at getting a power that does well for the circumstances. Shrouded is good... if you're already in cover which means the squad isn't firing at all so those 90pts ain't making their worth back too much.

*****RULE 1*******

Most Armies have ML1 psyker that cost 35pts or more, none are as spammable as Eldar that is for sure. Add to that the fact that most don't come with a FREE 4++ save. In fact in my army my ML1 Psyker is 35pts, he comes with a 6+ Save and a Force Stave.....thats about it, the table he gets to roll on is garbage and you can't upgrade his armor.


You keep forgetting I never said these units were going to be THE BEST, but what I did say was that they are better then most. And in that case I have made my point well.

Lord Kragan wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

The problem is that people believe that and don't have a modicum of gray matter.
Wanna make it friendly? Don't spam the specialists, don't bring scatbikes, nor spiders and wraithknights. Done.

-Shinning spears are so-so
-Prisms suffer from one shot syndrome and low strength on the big pieplate.
-Many vehicles are tissue paper.
-Guardians are flimsy at the very best.
-Warlocks aren't exactly point efficient.
-Etc.

Shining spears are fine, they just aren't scat bike stupid OP. 25pts for a 3+ Jetbike that comes stock with an AP3 close combat weapon and a S6 Lance.......Yeah terrible.

Prisms are great at what they do and offer tactical flexibility. In almost any other codex this would be a good unit. S5 AP3 large blast is bad? really? Did you forget you can have a S7 AP2 (Plasma Cannon basically) small blast THAT DOESN'T OVER HEAT! Or how about the S9Ap1 shot, not bad...Ohh yeah its a LANCE so its always going to pen on 4s. At AP1 thats +2 on the chart so if it wasn't for the plethora of other really really good anti-tank units you have this thing would be money, and it can be taken in squadrons for extra giggles.

almost every Eldar Vehicle is a skimmer and gets jink, you are either being purposefully dense or flat out lying.

Guardians are point for point as good as Space Marines and markedly better in some ways. 125pts gets you 10 of the little buggers with guess what? Another ML1 Psyker.

Warlocks are good. Sorry they aren't super under costed but your still getting. 35pts for a ML1 Psyker with access to great powers ohh and did I mention he comes STOCK with a 4++ save?


So those units you just said aren't that good would be considered auto-takes in almost every other codex. Sorry to burst your bubble, but except against Tau, Eldar, SM cheese you guys are OP as hell in almost every way.

-You mean a unit that has to fight at point-blank range (6'') to be effective all while being squishy as feth? A unit that is A1 S3 regularly and at best A2 S6 IF they charge? They also don't have fleet nor hit and run (ravenwing says hi) so their main utility is pray you killed them, which won't happen as they have too few attacks and body count. Oh did I mention that they can't use both profiles in a single turn so if they shot they are going to be gangraped if they (read: WILL) get charged?

-You think that for ALMOST the cost of a leman russ executioner you'd get more than one blast. Sure it doesnt overheat but you're paying 130pts for a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat, that's really point efficient, isn't it?.Sure the lance is penning on 4s. IF it hits. It takes 3 bloody rounds to achieve that thing you're saying it's so good about them. S5 is bad because it isn't enough to ID T3 models and has issues wounding T4 and above.

-It's not me being dense or lying it's you conflating things: they ARE tissue paper. If you think that AV12 AT BEST (and generally 10 in most vehicles) is strong go back to warhammer 101. Sacrificing all its offensive power to "maybe" survive those 6 immobilize results doesn't make them tougher, that just stalls their demise as they've been neutered. Where's that non-heating blasting going to sh- oh wait, yeah snapfiring, cannot shoot!

-you're paying 35 points for a T3 W1 model that has 1 shot at 12''. It has one shot at getting a power that does well for the circumstances. Shrouded is good... if you're already in cover which means the squad isn't firing at all so those 90pts ain't making their worth back too much.

And next time you speak about bursting someone's bubble go yourself with a jackhammer you arrogant

Calm down, jeez. Frankly, viewing casually strong units in a competitive environment is quite dense.

Just because you can beat something doesn't mean it is gak. There are better options than any of the units listed in the codex, but that doesn't mean the units listed suck.

Shining spears aren't very good, I'll give you that.

Wave serpents are far from tissue paper, AV12, 4+ jink, and probably enough saturation of them to make sure they don't fold like the actual tissue paper vehicles (try playing DE or Harlequinns, that's what tissue paper really looks like)

Guardians are chaf, but they are infinitely stronger than other's chaf units. I would take guardians and a warlock over some CSM or almost every other chaff unit in the game (bar a few)

None of these units are overpowered, they are strong, but not too strong. Viewing the units listed in a vacuum isn't indicative of the units performance, if it was then Khorne Bezerkers would be considered a lot better, and the entire DE codex would be considered the weak codex of 7th.

If you are playing the 'other' eldar units in a tournament, you won't steam roll your opponent and you won't get steamrolled, but again, that does depend on the tournament.

Reading your comment is infuriating.

Okay, let's say 3 marines dead. Bravo your 75pts squad has killed 50pts IF they get the charge and they were out in the open out of cover. That's assuming they lost no one during overwatch too. So what if they are jetbikes?? It's not a guarantee of charging such as re-rolling charges or the fixed charge distance plus d6. And I'm pretty sure a 4+ in CC is very use- oh wait it isn't, as well as a regular marine statline (they are tough to kill, ain't they? specially by things with low AP that are SOOOO rare in this edition.). Your whole assumption relies on the marine being a punchingbag and doesn't bother with overwatch or shoots them a priori.
No I'm not making a point for you becuase this guys are bike specialists[i][u] (same as ravenwing) who have been so focused on riding their bikes that their personalities have been utterly sucked and there's only the drive to be a better biker.

Fireprism isn't bad, but it isn't OP. A leman russ can lay pain on armor while wrecking anything short of termies too.

Because a 5++ save saves you sooo often against massed firepower (read, a grav-barrage nets roughly 5 immobilizes).

Warlocks spammable? When you need to pay a 90 or 50-80 points tax? To get a warlock you need to pay at least 100pts (bikes and warlock). Certainly that looks spammable as hell. Also, all psykers come with some kind of save, like the warlock does get.


You know why they are better than many? Because those many are just plain bad and I know it from my experience as a CSM player.

Lord Kragan wrote:
Reading your comment is infuriating.

Okay, let's say 3 marines dead. Bravo your 75pts squad has killed 50pts IF they get the charge and they were out in the open out of cover. That's assuming they lost no one during overwatch too. So what if they are jetbikes?? It's not a guarantee of charging such as re-rolling charges or the fixed charge distance plus d6. And I'm pretty sure a 4+ in CC is very use- oh wait it isn't, as well as a regular marine statline (they are tough to kill, ain't they? specially by things with low AP that are SOOOO rare in this edition.). Your whole assumption relies on the marine being a punchingbag and doesn't bother with overwatch or shoots them a priori.
No I'm not making a point for you becuase this guys are bike specialists[i][u] (same as ravenwing) who have been so focused on riding their bikes that their personalities have been utterly sucked and there's only the drive to be a better biker.

Fireprism isn't bad, but it isn't OP. A leman russ can lay pain on armor while wrecking anything short of termies too.

Because a 5++ save saves you sooo often against massed firepower (read, a grav-barrage nets roughly 5 immobilizes).

Warlocks spammable? When you need to pay a 90 or 50-80 points tax? To get a warlock you need to pay at least 100pts (bikes and warlock). Certainly that looks spammable as hell. Also, all psykers come with some kind of save, like the warlock does get.


You know why they are better than many? Because those many are just plain bad and I know it from my experience as a CSM player.

Like I said, these aren't OP units these are what the rest of the Eldar codex should have looked like. STRONG but not OP. Shining Spears are a bit weak but they are very much usable. And yes warlocks are spammable and remarkably cheap. For me to bring 6 ML1 Psykers I have to bring 2 full Ork Horde Detachments. This means I have to use ALL my HQ slots for those 6 Weirdboyz. Eldar on the other hand just have to take a couple of Guardian units or what have you and poof you get free HQ choices. not that bad. And like I said, your 35pt Psyker gets you a 4++ my 35pt Psyker gets a 6+ Save.

Wow, it's kind of shocking how deep the salt runs against Eldar, with the arguments for Shining Spears, Warlocks, and Fire Dragons. It's gotten so far beyond legitimate debate and rather someone trying to argue the sky is green because they're an Ork and anything that's not green is OP.

XvReaperXv wrote:Basically, how would you guys keep a level head and keep this game fun in this situation lol, because i'm having a rough time of it.

So. Let's be clear on this. You're married to your opponent.

And you're asking us about how to ensure that you both have an enjoyable game?

 Traditio wrote:

XvReaperXv wrote:Basically, how would you guys keep a level head and keep this game fun in this situation lol, because i'm having a rough time of it.

So. Let's be clear on this. You're married to your opponent.

And you're asking us about how to ensure that you both have an enjoyable game?

Well his wife is playing that most vile of Xenos. Though to be honest I did expect something along the lines of "Smash her filthy space elves. You'll have lots of fun." from you.

SemperMortis wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Reading your comment is infuriating.

Okay, let's say 3 marines dead. Bravo your 75pts squad has killed 50pts IF they get the charge and they were out in the open out of cover. That's assuming they lost no one during overwatch too. So what if they are jetbikes?? It's not a guarantee of charging such as re-rolling charges or the fixed charge distance plus d6. And I'm pretty sure a 4+ in CC is very use- oh wait it isn't, as well as a regular marine statline (they are tough to kill, ain't they? specially by things with low AP that are SOOOO rare in this edition.). Your whole assumption relies on the marine being a punchingbag and doesn't bother with overwatch or shoots them a priori.
No I'm not making a point for you becuase this guys are bike specialists[i][u] (same as ravenwing) who have been so focused on riding their bikes that their personalities have been utterly sucked and there's only the drive to be a better biker.

Fireprism isn't bad, but it isn't OP. A leman russ can lay pain on armor while wrecking anything short of termies too.

Because a 5++ save saves you sooo often against massed firepower (read, a grav-barrage nets roughly 5 immobilizes).

Warlocks spammable? When you need to pay a 90 or 50-80 points tax? To get a warlock you need to pay at least 100pts (bikes and warlock). Certainly that looks spammable as hell. Also, all psykers come with some kind of save, like the warlock does get.


You know why they are better than many? Because those many are just plain bad and I know it from my experience as a CSM player.

Like I said, these aren't OP units these are what the rest of the Eldar codex should have looked like. STRONG but not OP. Shining Spears are a bit weak but they are very much usable. And yes warlocks are spammable and remarkably cheap. For me to bring 6 ML1 Psykers I have to bring 2 full Ork Horde Detachments. This means I have to use ALL my HQ slots for those 6 Weirdboyz. Eldar on the other hand just have to take a couple of Guardian units or what have you and poof you get free HQ choices. not that bad. And like I said, your 35pt Psyker gets you a 4++ my 35pt Psyker gets a 6+ Save.

Because orks aren't a "psichic specialist army" (they are a "meelee" specialist army) and you're making the worst comparison possible bringing a BAD codex into comparison. CSM, SM, DA (okay, theirs would cost 470, but still they'd get a near-captain with AA and a ML3), SW marines can bring six mastery 1 marines for less than 400pts and they just need to pop-up one or too formations without the need for taxes. And your 35pts psyker gets A) more toughness B) 2 wounds C) sees more uses than just being a WC battery and D) I'ts an independent character which means that he LOS on a 2+ rather than a 4+.

Nevertheless, orks are one of the worst codexii in the meta, that you try to use them as a baseline for ANYTHING is mind-boggling.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

You can make a list without jetbikes, d-scythes, spiders, wraitknights and escalation and it'd be ok to play against to literally anyone.

Eldar don't have crap units other than banshees, mind you. And even so, crap eldar units are godlike compared to crap units from other codexes. Eldar mostly have Ok, Good and FFS HOW DID THEY THINK IT'S BALANCED?!! units. Avoid the last category for casual games and it'll be fine.

 koooaei wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You really can't make a toned down list with eldar. The only not great units in the army are rangers/howling banshees/and vibro cannons. I routinely house competitive armies with "toned down" eldar lists. The problem is eldar weapons are just flat out better than everyone elses.

You can make a list without jetbikes, d-scythes, spiders, wraitknights and escalation and it'd be ok to play against to literally anyone.

Heck, you can still take a list with Jetbikes as long as they don't have Scatterlasers and it not be so bad. But in general, yes I would avoid Spiders, WKs & anything with D.

-

Lord Kragan wrote:


Because orks aren't a "psichic specialist army" (they are a "meelee" specialist army) and you're making the worst comparison possible bringing a BAD codex into comparison. CSM, SM, DA (okay, theirs would cost 470, but still they'd get a near-captain with AA and a ML3), SW marines can bring six mastery 1 marines for less than 400pts and they just need to pop-up one or too formations without the need for taxes. And your 35pts psyker gets A) more toughness B) 2 wounds C) sees more uses than just being a WC battery and D) I'ts an independent character which means that he LOS on a 2+ rather than a 4+.

Nevertheless, orks are one of the worst codexii in the meta, that you try to use them as a baseline for ANYTHING is mind-boggling.

1: Eldar are not Psychic Specialists, they are EVERYTHING Specialists. So its kind of a moot point. But lets go over Psychic armies in 40k. SMs (All different flavors), IG, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Chaos Demons and CSM. Notably Necrons, DE and Tau don't have Psykers.

SMs can bring a librarian ML 1 for 65pts. That 30 extra points gives him a 3+ armor save, better WS 1 more wound and 1 better strength, toughness and attacks. Not bad, without going into formations it would cost almost 400pts to bring 6 of these guys to a game and then add in the required troop tax so another 330pts for Scouts in 3 CADs. so 730pts gets you 6 psykers. and 6 squads of Scouts. all naked with nothing extra.

IG are in a far better position then most with the fact that their psykers don't take up a force Org slot. for 50pts they get a ML1 psyker that is the same pretty much as the Warlock except it has 2 wounds and 5++ armor instead of 4++. To summarize, they get less armor, less Initiative and cost 15pts MORE then a warlock, but they do get a 2nd wound at T3. So there is that.

Orks, we already covered but as a reminder, 35pts gets you a worse version of a Warlock, but he has higher S and T and 1 more wound, but has a 6+ save, no ability to get a better save and his psychic powers are garbage.

Nids have a weird set up, they have lots and lots of psykers to choose from but the cheapest is the zoanthrope brood which is a S4T4 WS3 version of a Warlock but with a 5+ save and 2 wounds all for 50pts. Not even remotely as good but at least it has LD10

Chaos Demons: probably the best (read that as cheapest) access to Psychic powers are the Pink Horrors 90pts gets you 10 models that = 1 ML, for 99pts you get ML2 but if you lose 1 model your back down to 1. And since they are T3 with a 5++ they will die rather quickly.

CSM have a sorcerer which is a 60pt model that is ML1 with a 3+ save and better WS, S T and 1 more wound.

So again, Warlocks are literally the cheapest and cost efficient characters out of all the factions, now I didn't go into all the sub categories because honestly I don't care about a specialist sub division of a main faction. My point is that yet again, a unit that Eldar players consider garbage is actually better then any other factions comparable characters. It is just not nearly as OP as most Eldar are used to playing with.

 Traditio wrote:

XvReaperXv wrote:Basically, how would you guys keep a level head and keep this game fun in this situation lol, because i'm having a rough time of it.

So. Let's be clear on this. You're married to your opponent.

And you're asking us about how to ensure that you both have an enjoyable game?

Well, of course we talk about it before hand, its just she doesn't understand why I think a lot of her codex is just flat out stupid, and no fun to play against. She sees it as me saying you cant take half the models you spent hours painting. And I can see her side of that, no one should have to shelve half their army for something not in their control.

XvReaperXv wrote:

Well, of course we talk about it before hand, its just she doesn't understand why I think a lot of her codex is just flat out stupid, and no fun to play against. She sees it as me saying you cant take half the models you spent hours painting. And I can see her side of that, no one should have to shelve half their army for something not in their control.

Why don't you swap armies for once. It's not only gona open her to the game from your point of view but is a fun experience overall.

 koooaei wrote:

XvReaperXv wrote:

Well, of course we talk about it before hand, its just she doesn't understand why I think a lot of her codex is just flat out stupid, and no fun to play against. She sees it as me saying you cant take half the models you spent hours painting. And I can see her side of that, no one should have to shelve half their army for something not in their control.

Why don't you swap armies for once. It's not only gona open her to the game from your point of view but is a fun experience overall.

I tried that, she doesn't want to swap because she knows she will get destroyed lol.

Relic Sicaran

Flamers, lots of them

Nurgle bikers w T 6

Noise marines are also a nice pick

I do not recommand getting in CC unless it is of last ressort

Play a few psykers, either sorcerer or thousand sons, you won't be able to outmatch her but you'll be a thorn in her side...

Take this with a grain (or mine, depending of the case) of salt; I haven't played CSM since v6...

SemperMortis wrote:
...1: Eldar are not Psychic Specialists, they are EVERYTHING Specialists. So its kind of a moot point. But lets go over Psychic armies in 40k. SMs (All different flavors), IG, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Chaos Demons and CSM. Notably Necrons, DE and Tau don't have Psykers.

SMs can bring a librarian ML 1 for 65pts. That 30 extra points gives him a 3+ armor save, better WS 1 more wound and 1 better strength, toughness and attacks. Not bad, without going into formations it would cost almost 400pts to bring 6 of these guys to a game and then add in the required troop tax so another 330pts for Scouts in 3 CADs. so 730pts gets you 6 psykers. and 6 squads of Scouts. all naked with nothing extra.

IG are in a far better position then most with the fact that their psykers don't take up a force Org slot. for 50pts they get a ML1 psyker that is the same pretty much as the Warlock except it has 2 wounds and 5++ armor instead of 4++. To summarize, they get less armor, less Initiative and cost 15pts MORE then a warlock, but they do get a 2nd wound at T3. So there is that.

Orks, we already covered but as a reminder, 35pts gets you a worse version of a Warlock, but he has higher S and T and 1 more wound, but has a 6+ save, no ability to get a better save and his psychic powers are garbage.

Nids have a weird set up, they have lots and lots of psykers to choose from but the cheapest is the zoanthrope brood which is a S4T4 WS3 version of a Warlock but with a 5+ save and 2 wounds all for 50pts. Not even remotely as good but at least it has LD10

Chaos Demons: probably the best (read that as cheapest) access to Psychic powers are the Pink Horrors 90pts gets you 10 models that = 1 ML, for 99pts you get ML2 but if you lose 1 model your back down to 1. And since they are T3 with a 5++ they will die rather quickly.

CSM have a sorcerer which is a 60pt model that is ML1 with a 3+ save and better WS, S T and 1 more wound.

So again, Warlocks are literally the cheapest and cost efficient characters out of all the factions, now I didn't go into all the sub categories because honestly I don't care about a specialist sub division of a main faction. My point is that yet again, a unit that Eldar players consider garbage is actually better then any other factions comparable characters. It is just not nearly as OP as most Eldar are used to playing with.

A few points of clarification on this one. Eldar are good at psychic powers, yes, but you're discounting a lot of things here.

First point is flexibility. Craftworld Eldar have access to five disciplines (Sanctic, Divination, Telepathy, Battle, Fate), three of which (Telepathy, Battle, Fate) are worth using. Vanilla Space Marines have eleven (Biomancy, Sanctic, Malefic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy), seven of which (Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy) are worth using.

Second point is reliability/ease of access. A minimum foot Seer Council with Eldrad will be 470pts, generate nine powers and twelve Warp Charge, casts on 3+, and is stuck in a single squad. A Librarius Conclave containing two ML2 Librarians and Tigurius will be 345pts, generates seven powers and seven Warp Charge, can cast on 2+ rerollable, and can spread its powers out much more broadly. The Eldar can throw lots of Warp Charge at powers, the Space Marines can guarantee a smaller number of powers absolutely will go off.

Third point your cost-benefit analysis of psykers isn't particularly complete. A Warlock isn't an Independent Character, he's either part of a Conclave (in which he generates the same amount of Warp Charge as another army's psykers but has fewer dice to fish for powers with), or a squad leader (in which case he's a full psyker but requires 50+pts of Guardians to be used and passes Look Out, Sir! on a 4+). The most cost-effective psykers in the game give, no strings attached, a full Mastery level (WC and power) on an Independent Character body for around 30pts/ML, they are the Herald of Tzeentch (31.37pts/ML), Farseer (33.33pts/ML), and Spiritseer (35pts/ML). They are all trumped, however, by the humble Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband, which can put a full Mastery level on the table (not an Independent Character, sadly) for 18pts (Psyker (10pts), 2x Acolyte (4pts each)).

So bottom line here the Eldar, while good at psykering, are equalled or surpassed by Space Marines (who have better powers, a better caster formation, and Tigurius/Severin Loth) and Tzeentch Daemons (who usually field more Mastery levels).

Warlocks aren't considered bad because they're not as OP as the rest of the army; the Seer Council is considered mediocre because it's an expensive and inefficient unit (35pt single-wound models with little to no offensive power that need buffs to do anything at all in melee), Warlocks in Jetbike squads are considered mediocre because they don't help enough to justify losing 2-3 more bodies, and Warlocks in Guardian squads are considered mediocre because Guardian squads are considered mediocre. They're not bad at their job, but their job doesn't usually help all that much.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

A few points of clarification on this one. Eldar are good at psychic powers, yes, but you're discounting a lot of things here.

First point is flexibility. Craftworld Eldar have access to five disciplines (Sanctic, Divination, Telepathy, Battle, Fate), three of which (Telepathy, Battle, Fate) are worth using. Vanilla Space Marines have eleven (Biomancy, Sanctic, Malefic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy), seven of which (Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy) are worth using.

How recently were 4 of those added?

When the SM book was published, they had access to the main book powers. That was all. Sure it was still a significant amount, but when that book was published there was no unique lores.

I would be incredibly surprised to see SM retain 11 Psyker trees whenever the book gets redone. Right now, the addition of the "Adeptus Astartes Psychic Powers"(Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, and Technomancy) is part of the current design philosophy which is "we don't want to publish a whole lot of new stuff, instead we're doing small patches here and there".

Second point is reliability/ease of access. A minimum foot Seer Council with Eldrad will be 470pts, generate nine powers and twelve Warp Charge, casts on 3+, and is stuck in a single squad. A Librarius Conclave containing two ML2 Librarians and Tigurius will be 345pts, generates seven powers and seven Warp Charge, can cast on 2+ rerollable, and can spread its powers out much more broadly. The Eldar can throw lots of Warp Charge at powers, the Space Marines can guarantee a smaller number of powers absolutely will go off.

A Librarius Conclave containing Tigurius also pigeonholes you into using Ultramarines Chapter Tactics or fielding the Librarius Conclave outside of the constraints of the Detachment you've chosen.

Additionally, not every SM Detachment out there has access to Librarius Conclaves.

Einachiel wrote:
Relic Sicaran

Flamers, lots of them

Nurgle bikers w T 6

Noise marines are also a nice pick

I do not recommand getting in CC unless it is of last ressort

Play a few psykers, either sorcerer or thousand sons, you won't be able to outmatch her but you'll be a thorn in her side...

Take this with a grain (or mine, depending of the case) of salt; I haven't played CSM since v6...

I use nurgle bikers alot, problem is t6 means jack against scat bikes, which are cheaper and a troop choice.

Funny, I was looking hard at the Deathwatch codex who are supposed to combat Xenos.
I still do not see anything that makes them a hard counter to Eldar... funny that.
I could very easily be listed a loser by choice when I have pretty much every army except Eldar, Tau or Necrons.
Dodged the bullet with Orks and Dark Eldar but that is it.

SemperMortis wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:


Because orks aren't a "psichic specialist army" (they are a "meelee" specialist army) and you're making the worst comparison possible bringing a BAD codex into comparison. CSM, SM, DA (okay, theirs would cost 470, but still they'd get a near-captain with AA and a ML3), SW marines can bring six mastery 1 marines for less than 400pts and they just need to pop-up one or too formations without the need for taxes. And your 35pts psyker gets A) more toughness B) 2 wounds C) sees more uses than just being a WC battery and D) I'ts an independent character which means that he LOS on a 2+ rather than a 4+.

Nevertheless, orks are one of the worst codexii in the meta, that you try to use them as a baseline for ANYTHING is mind-boggling.

1: Eldar are not Psychic Specialists, they are EVERYTHING Specialists. So its kind of a moot point. But lets go over Psychic armies in 40k. SMs (All different flavors), IG, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Chaos Demons and CSM. Notably Necrons, DE and Tau don't have Psykers.

SMs can bring a librarian ML 1 for 65pts. That 30 extra points gives him a 3+ armor save, better WS 1 more wound and 1 better strength, toughness and attacks. Not bad, without going into formations it would cost almost 400pts to bring 6 of these guys to a game and then add in the required troop tax so another 330pts for Scouts in 3 CADs. so 730pts gets you 6 psykers. and 6 squads of Scouts. all naked with nothing extra.

IG are in a far better position then most with the fact that their psykers don't take up a force Org slot. for 50pts they get a ML1 psyker that is the same pretty much as the Warlock except it has 2 wounds and 5++ armor instead of 4++. To summarize, they get less armor, less Initiative and cost 15pts MORE then a warlock, but they do get a 2nd wound at T3. So there is that.

Orks, we already covered but as a reminder, 35pts gets you a worse version of a Warlock, but he has higher S and T and 1 more wound, but has a 6+ save, no ability to get a better save and his psychic powers are garbage.

Nids have a weird set up, they have lots and lots of psykers to choose from but the cheapest is the zoanthrope brood which is a S4T4 WS3 version of a Warlock but with a 5+ save and 2 wounds all for 50pts. Not even remotely as good but at least it has LD10

Chaos Demons: probably the best (read that as cheapest) access to Psychic powers are the Pink Horrors 90pts gets you 10 models that = 1 ML, for 99pts you get ML2 but if you lose 1 model your back down to 1. And since they are T3 with a 5++ they will die rather quickly.

CSM have a sorcerer which is a 60pt model that is ML1 with a 3+ save and better WS, S T and 1 more wound.

So again, Warlocks are literally the cheapest and cost efficient characters out of all the factions, now I didn't go into all the sub categories because honestly I don't care about a specialist sub division of a main faction. My point is that yet again, a unit that Eldar players consider garbage is actually better then any other factions comparable characters. It is just not nearly as OP as most Eldar are used to playing with.

Let's go army by army, then:

A) No, it's 400pts: you take 2 3-man librarius conclaves. Period. What you're doing is maliciously restraining the marine player because you feel so, making him take an option he'd never take if he had the chance not to. Also, the eldars must pay 600pts or more points to get thier 6 warlocks naked too, and their models certainly won't have that extra toughness and better save nor the 24'' guns that pierce their armor consistently. Stop manipulating numbers to your interests, okay? Also they pay more to get the psychic hoods and a forcesword to hit at AP3.
B) Again, no: the guard pays 50-75pts less to get the psyker because they don't need the squad tax.
C)Orks is garbage. Period.
D) Except zoanthropes have a 3++ invulnerable save.Now we are lying about rules too? They are paying 15pts more for a better invuln and toughness and wounds.
E) Warlocks aren't good, but they aren't bad. At no moment I said they were garbage.
F) Marines are the most efficient characters. The conclave let's you cast all those gribbly spells on a 2+ while keep


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

A few points of clarification on this one. Eldar are good at psychic powers, yes, but you're discounting a lot of things here.

First point is flexibility. Craftworld Eldar have access to five disciplines (Sanctic, Divination, Telepathy, Battle, Fate), three of which (Telepathy, Battle, Fate) are worth using. Vanilla Space Marines have eleven (Biomancy, Sanctic, Malefic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy), seven of which (Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy) are worth using.

How recently were 4 of those added?

When the SM book was published, they had access to the main book powers. That was all. Sure it was still a significant amount, but when that book was published there was no unique lores.

I would be incredibly surprised to see SM retain 11 Psyker trees whenever the book gets redone. Right now, the addition of the "Adeptus Astartes Psychic Powers"(Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, and Technomancy) is part of the current design philosophy which is "we don't want to publish a whole lot of new stuff, instead we're doing small patches here and there".

Second point is reliability/ease of access. A minimum foot Seer Council with Eldrad will be 470pts, generate nine powers and twelve Warp Charge, casts on 3+, and is stuck in a single squad. A Librarius Conclave containing two ML2 Librarians and Tigurius will be 345pts, generates seven powers and seven Warp Charge, can cast on 2+ rerollable, and can spread its powers out much more broadly. The Eldar can throw lots of Warp Charge at powers, the Space Marines can guarantee a smaller number of powers absolutely will go off.

A Librarius Conclave containing Tigurius also pigeonholes you into using Ultramarines Chapter Tactics or fielding the Librarius Conclave outside of the constraints of the Detachment you've chosen.

Additionally, not every SM Detachment out there has access to Librarius Conclaves.

Warlocks have access to ONE of those disciplines. So there goes the flexibility of them.

Lord Kragan wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:


Because orks aren't a "psichic specialist army" (they are a "meelee" specialist army) and you're making the worst comparison possible bringing a BAD codex into comparison. CSM, SM, DA (okay, theirs would cost 470, but still they'd get a near-captain with AA and a ML3), SW marines can bring six mastery 1 marines for less than 400pts and they just need to pop-up one or too formations without the need for taxes. And your 35pts psyker gets A) more toughness B) 2 wounds C) sees more uses than just being a WC battery and D) I'ts an independent character which means that he LOS on a 2+ rather than a 4+.

Nevertheless, orks are one of the worst codexii in the meta, that you try to use them as a baseline for ANYTHING is mind-boggling.

1: Eldar are not Psychic Specialists, they are EVERYTHING Specialists. So its kind of a moot point. But lets go over Psychic armies in 40k. SMs (All different flavors), IG, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Chaos Demons and CSM. Notably Necrons, DE and Tau don't have Psykers.

SMs can bring a librarian ML 1 for 65pts. That 30 extra points gives him a 3+ armor save, better WS 1 more wound and 1 better strength, toughness and attacks. Not bad, without going into formations it would cost almost 400pts to bring 6 of these guys to a game and then add in the required troop tax so another 330pts for Scouts in 3 CADs. so 730pts gets you 6 psykers. and 6 squads of Scouts. all naked with nothing extra.

IG are in a far better position then most with the fact that their psykers don't take up a force Org slot. for 50pts they get a ML1 psyker that is the same pretty much as the Warlock except it has 2 wounds and 5++ armor instead of 4++. To summarize, they get less armor, less Initiative and cost 15pts MORE then a warlock, but they do get a 2nd wound at T3. So there is that.

Orks, we already covered but as a reminder, 35pts gets you a worse version of a Warlock, but he has higher S and T and 1 more wound, but has a 6+ save, no ability to get a better save and his psychic powers are garbage.

Nids have a weird set up, they have lots and lots of psykers to choose from but the cheapest is the zoanthrope brood which is a S4T4 WS3 version of a Warlock but with a 5+ save and 2 wounds all for 50pts. Not even remotely as good but at least it has LD10

Chaos Demons: probably the best (read that as cheapest) access to Psychic powers are the Pink Horrors 90pts gets you 10 models that = 1 ML, for 99pts you get ML2 but if you lose 1 model your back down to 1. And since they are T3 with a 5++ they will die rather quickly.

CSM have a sorcerer which is a 60pt model that is ML1 with a 3+ save and better WS, S T and 1 more wound.

So again, Warlocks are literally the cheapest and cost efficient characters out of all the factions, now I didn't go into all the sub categories because honestly I don't care about a specialist sub division of a main faction. My point is that yet again, a unit that Eldar players consider garbage is actually better then any other factions comparable characters. It is just not nearly as OP as most Eldar are used to playing with.

Let's go army by army, then:

A) No, it's 400pts: you take 2 3-man librarius conclaves. Period. What you're doing is maliciously restraining the marine player because you feel so, making him take an option he'd never take if he had the chance not to. Also, the eldars must pay 600pts or more points to get thier 6 warlocks naked too, and their models certainly won't have that extra toughness and better save nor the 24'' guns that pierce their armor consistently. Stop manipulating numbers to your interests, okay? Also they pay more to get the psychic hoods and a forcesword to hit at AP3.
B) Again, no: the guard pays 50-75pts less to get the psyker because they don't need the squad tax.
C)Orks is garbage. Period.
D) Except zoanthropes have a 3++ invulnerable save.Now we are lying about rules too? They are paying 15pts more for a better invuln and toughness and wounds.
E) Warlocks aren't good, but they aren't bad. At no moment I said they were garbage.
F) Marines are the most efficient characters. The conclave let's you cast all those gribbly spells on a 2+ while keep


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

A few points of clarification on this one. Eldar are good at psychic powers, yes, but you're discounting a lot of things here.

First point is flexibility. Craftworld Eldar have access to five disciplines (Sanctic, Divination, Telepathy, Battle, Fate), three of which (Telepathy, Battle, Fate) are worth using. Vanilla Space Marines have eleven (Biomancy, Sanctic, Malefic, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy), seven of which (Biomancy, Divination, Telepathy, Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, Technomancy) are worth using.

How recently were 4 of those added?

When the SM book was published, they had access to the main book powers. That was all. Sure it was still a significant amount, but when that book was published there was no unique lores.

I would be incredibly surprised to see SM retain 11 Psyker trees whenever the book gets redone. Right now, the addition of the "Adeptus Astartes Psychic Powers"(Librarius, Fulmination, Geomancy, and Technomancy) is part of the current design philosophy which is "we don't want to publish a whole lot of new stuff, instead we're doing small patches here and there".

Second point is reliability/ease of access. A minimum foot Seer Council with Eldrad will be 470pts, generate nine powers and twelve Warp Charge, casts on 3+, and is stuck in a single squad. A Librarius Conclave containing two ML2 Librarians and Tigurius will be 345pts, generates seven powers and seven Warp Charge, can cast on 2+ rerollable, and can spread its powers out much more broadly. The Eldar can throw lots of Warp Charge at powers, the Space Marines can guarantee a smaller number of powers absolutely will go off.

A Librarius Conclave containing Tigurius also pigeonholes you into using Ultramarines Chapter Tactics or fielding the Librarius Conclave outside of the constraints of the Detachment you've chosen.

Additionally, not every SM Detachment out there has access to Librarius Conclaves.

Warlocks have access to ONE of those disciplines. So there goes the flexibility of them.

I actually spelled out that I didn't want to include ridiculous formations, because if that is what we are doing then lets just start lumping Wraithknight spam and Scatbike spam and Warpspider spam into the mix shall we?

I was going by the basic CHEAPEST ML1 character available to each codex, the only mistake I made was the zoanthropes, I don't play against Nids to often so I forgot they get a 3++.

The fact remains that for 35pts an Eldar player can add a warlock to a number of units which buffs the eldar army immensely. And as far as acting as batteries for the better psykers.....so what? Your farseers can very easily become god like with their abilities to reroll and basically ignore perils.

If you want to play the game of who has the best what I would suggest you go look at the numerous threads already on that subject, here is a hint, Eldar usually are in 1st or 2nd place in regards to most of those polls. "Who has the best Psykers" "Who has the best Troops" and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ohh and I forgot to mention this earlier...Orks aren't a melee specialist army, if that was the case we would be a hell of a lot better at melee then we are. S3 and I2 on Melee troops generally isn't that great

"I didn't want to include formations." Fine, good for you, but the marine player that does want six psychers WILL. Stop being so self-centered and look outside the bloody box.

Then why the hell you bothered to include them? You're making comparisons about them, you're mentioning their profile, aren't you? Then do the research properly.

Inmensely is a very relative term. A few of the powers require them to put themselves in positions that will endanger them too greatly and you'll need more warpcharges than what they provide for to give said boons. So... not exactly the best designation.

You mean re-rolling ONE psychic power and the fact that we get to sacrifcie the invulnerable save just in case we suffer PotW? My god that's utterly broken, I know, it's a god of psychic might.

Three attacks base on your basic model and S4 on the charge sounds a bit like meelee oriented. Again, the point stands that orks have a bad codex, period. It doesn't demean that their specialty is meelee, only that they aren't GOOD specialists.

BA just got a new book, and there is still no reason Eldar should ever lose to them. That's true power.

While I appreciate a "Bash Eldar" thread as much as the next Eldar player, and while I agree that yes the baseline for the Eldar book was set surprisingly high in comparison to a number of other armies, I categorically deny that the very presence of this army on a table can cause hemorrhagic ulcers in your fun-centers.

My honest-to-Ynnead recommendation? Have a few drinks while you're playing. If you're playing at a shop or other drink-less environment, then consider a brief conversation, like perhaps some kind of beyond-puberty, voting/smoking/drinking age individuals and discuss what kind of difficulty curve you're both looking for.

Meant to be condescending? No. Meant to be humorous? Yes.

Ultimately, there really is nothing either Eldar or non-Eldar players can do about the power level of this book. Their's gentlemen's agreements (or the equivalent between Sir Does-Not-Want-Salt-Thread-Starter and his better half), there's house rules, there's special scenarios, etc. But until GW revamps the entire concept of what balance means in their little system, it falls to us. Looking for ways to do so nets you a higher chance of a positive gaming experience. Getting angry about it embitters everyone involved. Kind of like marriage, in a way...

Like Bethesda depending on a community of modders to make their shell of a game complete, GW takes for granted that we'll make their game playable. I'd rather have a 15 minute conversation before a game discussing what to bring than a 3+ hour teeth-grinding ordeal because I wrecked some poor Ork players dreams or a hair pulling match with a Necron player who seems incapable regardless of intention of losing a model to any amount of firepower.

Good Luck. Good Gaming. Good Night.

@OP: As a someone with similiar situation (my wife is my main opponent, but it is I who play Eldar) from what I gather from all your responses, your main problem with this is... your wife's attitude, as she opposes any sensible way to deal with this problem... If she refues point handicap, her list restrictions and any other way of ensuring even chances of winning, then she really sounds as kind of a WAAC player - and in your case "at all costs" really means "at the expediture of your fun".

But there is a slight beacon of hope for you, as you admit, that she agreed to play Maelstrom. Try Supremacy card set, as it is a bit more balanced and introduces some new ways of scoring points. And you might want to try to play on terrain heavy tables - scatterbikes are not so scary if they cannot shoot at full range and are easily tarpited in CC.

You might also try to convince her on some codex changes, but in YOUR codices - it is easier to convince someone to play against new toys than to reason them to cripple theirs.

Anyway - good luck to you and don't give up!

nou wrote:
@OP: As a someone with similiar situation (my wife is my main opponent, but it is I who play Eldar) from what I gather from all your responses, your main problem with this is... your wife's attitude, as she opposes any sensible way to deal with this problem... If she refues point handicap, her list restrictions and any other way of ensuring even chances of winning, then she really sounds as kind of a WAAC player - and in your case "at all costs" really means "at the expediture of your fun".

But there is a slight beacon of hope for you, as you admit, that she agreed to play Maelstrom. Try Supremacy card set, as it is a bit more balanced and introduces some new ways of scoring points. And you might want to try to play on terrain heavy tables - scatterbikes are not so scary if they cannot shoot at full range and are easily tarpited in CC.

You might also try to convince her on some codex changes, but in YOUR codices - it is easier to convince someone to play against new toys than to reason them to cripple theirs.

Anyway - good luck to you and don't give up!

After reading this thread and realizing its just not me looking for an advantage, she is willing to let me have more points as chaos. We do play on a terrain heavy table which helps a bit, except for all my combats being at I1 lol, but ill take it!

Drinking helps!

XvReaperXv wrote:

nou wrote:
@OP: As a someone with similiar situation (my wife is my main opponent, but it is I who play Eldar) from what I gather from all your responses, your main problem with this is... your wife's attitude, as she opposes any sensible way to deal with this problem... If she refues point handicap, her list restrictions and any other way of ensuring even chances of winning, then she really sounds as kind of a WAAC player - and in your case "at all costs" really means "at the expediture of your fun".

But there is a slight beacon of hope for you, as you admit, that she agreed to play Maelstrom. Try Supremacy card set, as it is a bit more balanced and introduces some new ways of scoring points. And you might want to try to play on terrain heavy tables - scatterbikes are not so scary if they cannot shoot at full range and are easily tarpited in CC.

You might also try to convince her on some codex changes, but in YOUR codices - it is easier to convince someone to play against new toys than to reason them to cripple theirs.

Anyway - good luck to you and don't give up!

After reading this thread and realizing its just not me looking for an advantage, she is willing to let me have more points as chaos. We do play on a terrain heavy table which helps a bit, except for all my combats being at I1 lol, but ill take it!

Chaos marines have assault grenades right? But your init is lower than eldar probably anyway.

Yea I agreed to all the stuff, if taking away units and not playing certain things makes him happy then it's an easy fix.. I'm new.. I see something and I'm like ohh shineyyy let me play with this. I have no idea what im doing I'm just painting things and rolling dice.. not really that big of a deal. I already told him to tailor my list that way I don't grab something unreasonable. I tabled the spiders and haven't played the wraith since game 1.. I also took out the units of bikes and downgraded some the scats to skurken.. after reading half the comments I might be the salty one now lol