Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This one in particular is the Ork Warband in the back of the book. I noticed a post on here that said the Mek must be a Mek and not a Big Mek (which is important as my Ork sensei told me otherwise), but my question as far as I can tell goes unanswered. He believes that the formation is only the minimum requirements and that something like Lootas can be added in without having to take a separate detachment. However, Battlescribe and HQ Builder say other wise. Is he correct, and the program misprogrammed? Or is the machine right, and my Warboss wrong?

Your Warboss is wrong.

*Hides from the inevitable WAAAAAGH! retaliation*

You can only take what's listed in a formation-nothing more, nothing less.

Thank you. Possible ruling pg #s? As I am merely a Grottling, he will not take this very well most likely.

Away from my book at the moment, so I'm afraid I can't.

It should be noted, though, you can (for instance) take a CAD, then add extra Lootas. That just makes you Unbound. You still get Formation benefits, it just won't apply to your extra units.

If that's what he meant, then actually, he's right.

Soooo let me get this straight. If I take a CAD, and there is a formation inside of it, then the benefits apply to those in the formation but not the rest of the remaining CAD members?

While you should never look towards army builder programs (especially community-made ones) for rules debates, in this case they are correct, assuming your Sensei is talking about Battle-forged lists. Formations list the exact units they are comprised of, sometimes even listing a specific number of models in the units (such as the canoptek harvest's single tomb spyder).

page 121 of the rulebook - under "Formations"

Instead of including a force organization chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules those units gain.

So it says that the things that comprise the formation are listed. If you take something that's not listed, it's not part of what comprises the formation.

If your Sensei is talking about Unbound lists, then he is correct. You may take formations as a part of Unbound lists and still benefit from their formation bonuses. Aside from the Formations, you may take whatever models you want in whatever combination you want, so adding in a squad of Lootas is perfectly fine (although they would not benefit from the Formation bonus, as they are not a part of the formation).

If your Sensei insists that you may take extra units with formations in battle-forged lists, ask where the limit is? since these units would not have to take a separate detachment and formations don't have force organization charts, that would mean you would have limitless selections available to you. Could you tack on 5 more Warbosses? 10 more squads of boyz? Sounds an awful lot like an Unbound list to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kaldorain wrote:
Soooo let me get this straight. If I take a CAD, and there is a formation inside of it, then the benefits apply to those in the formation but not the rest of the remaining CAD members?

You cannot have a formation INSIDE a CAD. A unit can only ever belong to one detachment (aside from special codex-specific detachments like the Necron Decurion). Formations are detachments like any other, but instead of having a force org chart like a CAD, they have a specific list of units they are comprised of. So to answer your question - yes a formation's bonuses ONLY apply to units that are a part of that formation, because those models cannot be a part of a CAD as well.

Differences between Unbound and Battle-Forged? Or is just whatever your play group decides?

The only things you can add to a formation that isn't listed are units that do not take up a force organisation slot

i.e. Tyrannocytes

(you could legally do a tyranid list that is a single unit formation, then spam tyrannocytes)

Has to say it affects other ICs or all models in the unit specifically to go along with the current faqs.

PS, I apologize for the loads of random questions, but I do appreciate the support and quick replies =)

Battle-forged lists can take regular Detachments and gain their bonuses (like Combined Arms detachments giving their troops choices the Objective Secured special rule, and allowing the Warlord to re-roll their trait). They can also take Formation detachments.

Unbound lists can take any number of units in any combination with no restrictions other than unique characters still being restricted to one, normal unit sizes, etc. You may not take normal Detachments like Combined Arms Detachments, but you may still take Formations like the Greentide.

Most people prefer using the Battle-forged method for the "balance" it provides, or at least as close to "balance" as you can get with 7th edition. But it's really just up to your gamign group. if they want Unbound, then play Unbound.

At this point you should really just re-read over the rules for Army Building in the rulebook, starting on page 116. A lot of your questions can be answered there, usually in bold text.

Bojazz wrote:
Battle-forged lists can take regular Detachments and gain their bonuses (like Combined Arms detachments giving their troops choices the Objective Secured special rule, and allowing the Warlord to re-roll their trait). They can also take Formation detachments.

Unbound lists can take any number of units in any combination with no restrictions other than unique characters still being restricted to one, normal unit sizes, etc. You may not take normal Detachments like Combined Arms Detachments, but you may still take Formations like the Greentide.

Most people prefer using the Battle-forged method for the "balance" it provides, or at least as close to "balance" as you can get with 7th edition. But it's really just up to your gamign group. if they want Unbound, then play Unbound.

At this point you should really just re-read over the rules for Army Building in the rulebook, starting on page 116. A lot of your questions can be answered there, usually in bold text.

Thank ya thank ya, makes my job of list building much easier!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another quick question, Look Out Sirs must be done before doing saves correct?

Yes

You should really check out the Detachments, Bound and Battle-forged section of your rule book which outlines exactly how to fulfil certain requirements and build your army. Getting advice from experienced players is certainly valuable but its no replacement for the book itself, people often get a bit confused or mix in old edition rules with the current ones.

You've been given good answers in here so far but something I'd add is that the Ork Warband also comprises the Core choice for the Great Waaagh!-band Detachment - this large detachment allows you to take Auxiliary choices which include some single unit options (like Lootas) that you can simply add on to the main Core choice. This detachment can be found in the newer Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement and may be what your friend was talking about.

GodDamUser wrote:
The only things you can add to a formation that isn't listed are units that do not take up a force organisation slot

i.e. Tyrannocytes

(you could legally do a tyranid list that is a single unit formation, then spam tyrannocytes)

This is very incorrect.

Formations are just the army list entries listed and any army list entries allowed from those army list entries.

Example 1: Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon formation lists 1 Infantry Platoon. The Infantry Platoon itself is a base 1 Platoon command squad and 2-5 Platoon Infantry Squads, then has options for several other entries. The Restrictions on the formation says you must take 5 Platoon Infantry squads. You can still take special weapon squads, heavy weapon squads, or conscripts even though they are not specified as they are part of the allowances by the Infantry Platoon entry.

Example 2: a battle demi company lists 3 tactical squads. An option for a tactical squad is the dedicated transport of a rhino, razorback, or drop pod. Because those transport army list entries are options for the tactical squad they can be part of the demi company formation.

Army list entries which do not take up a slot on the Force Organization Chart is a rule under detachments in the brb, it is only discussing "Detachments" which are those that use a FOC. Formations are detachments, but not Detachments.

Example: going back to the Emperor's Shield; taking that platoon nets you a Platoon command squad. A Commissar, under its own entry, states that you may take 1 per platoon command squad and that it is an army list entry that does not take up a slot. The Commissar is still not available in the formation; and neither is the priest, engineseer, or primaris psyker(all also slotless).

You ahould read the rules for units that dont take up a slot again.. pretty sure there was a faq aswell wich said the units dont take up slots can be taken in formations.

There was a large discussion about it on another forum a year or so ago

GodDamUser wrote:
You ahould read the rules for units that dont take up a slot again.. pretty sure there was a faq aswell wich said the units dont take up slots can be taken in formations.

There was a large discussion about it on another forum a year or so ago

No, units that aren't listed in a formation either need a special rule to let them join (like the Retainer rule that lets you take a Court of the Archon in a Purge Cotorie formation for Dark Eldar) or can be taken as dedicated transports, where they count as upgrades for the unit that took them. You can't just randomly add, say, a Tyrant Guard unit to a Tyranid formation.

GodDamUser wrote:
You ahould read the rules for units that dont take up a slot again.. pretty sure there was a faq aswell wich said the units dont take up slots can be taken in formations.

There was a large discussion about it on another forum a year or so ago

Yes, there was a large discussion about it about a year ago.

I was there, and proved my point.

Units that do not take up force organization chart slots are pert of the Detachment rules; which in turn involve FOCs. Formations are a special type of detachment that functions differently.

But let's take this to the illogical conclusion: I take a Furor killteam(deathwatch formation), I take a 5-man DW Vets squad, and a single Vanguard Vet. I now take a Tyranocyte(because it doesn't take up a slot), a Primaris Psykers(also don't take up slots and I have an Allied Detachment of Astra Militarum), an Enginseer(again, slotless), and an Ecclesial priest(slotless). This would be a legal Formation under your claims as the Formation never states all units must be from the same codex and there are 10 models(within the restrictions)

Kel is correct. From the Astra Militarum Draft FAQ:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
But let's take this to the illogical conclusion: I take a Furor killteam(deathwatch formation), I take a 5-man DW Vets squad, and a single Vanguard Vet. I now take a Tyranocyte(because it doesn't take up a slot), a Primaris Psykers(also don't take up slots and I have an Allied Detachment of Astra Militarum), an Enginseer(again, slotless), and an Ecclesial priest(slotless). This would be a legal Formation under your claims as the Formation never states all units must be from the same codex and there are 10 models(within the restrictions)

Well units in a detachment need to be the same faction, so yeah your example is bad.

but yeah form the rulebook

Army List Entries That Do Not use Force Organisation Slots
"These units can be included in any Detachment"

Formations
Formations are a special type of detachment

from Tyranid Draft FAQ

Q: "Can you take unlimted empty Tyrannocytes"
A: Yes

GodDamUser wrote:
Well units in a detachment need to be the same faction, so yeah your example is bad.

No, they don't. Almost all do, and I can think of one that can't be filled with only one Faction. It's a Formation of Formations, but still counts. All Role-based Detachments come with that restriction or restrict it to one Faction on their own lists. It is not a default setting.

GodDamUser wrote:
but yeah form the rulebook

Army List Entries That Do Not use Force Organisation Slots
"These units can be included in any Detachment"

Read further in the paragraph:
"...they must still adhere to any restrictions detailed on the Detachment and its own Army List Entry."

And then further in Formations:
"Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it,"

As others have said, if a unit is called by a unit in a Formation and Slotless (aka, but not limited to, Dedicated Transports), it's fine. But a unit cannot call itself in to a Formation.

GodDamUser wrote:
from Tyranid Draft FAQ

Q: "Can you take unlimted empty Tyrannocytes"
A: Yes

Lack of context from the questioner, and lack of details from the respondant. As with many of the questions regarding the Draft FAQs, they either do not ask the right question, or the answer does not go in to detail.

I believe the INTENT is that you can't add cypher to a cabal of sorcerers but RAW its perfectly fine.

The precedent set by the astra militarum advisers is undone by the nids FAQ.

Formations are detachments. Unless it has a listing under restrictions in the formation, I don't see any RAW reason you cant add non slot models/units to a formation

GW consisnt rulings are awesome =D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
from Tyranid Draft FAQ

Q: "Can you take unlimted empty Tyrannocytes"
A: Yes

Lack of context from the questioner, and lack of details from the respondant. As with many of the questions regarding the Draft FAQs, they either do not ask the right question, or the answer does not go in to detail.

Well there was more centext from the question asker, i was just too lazy to type it.

There actually wasn't any more context, just a wordier version of the question. They didn't ask if you could field them as a part of Formations.

The full quote is:

Q: Tyrannocytes don’t use up slots on the Force Organisation Chart – does this mean that you can purchase unlimited Tyrannocytes (within points of course!) and deploy them ‘empty’?
A: Yes.

So while you have permission to take an unlimited number of empty tryannocytes, this still does not give you permission to change the way you may select units to fill out a Formation.

This is further supported by the Astra Militarum FAQ quoted earlier, asking if you can take various slotless units from that codex in Formations, and being answered with no.

 Massaen wrote:
I believe the INTENT is that you can't add cypher to a cabal of sorcerers but RAW its perfectly fine.

The precedent set by the astra militarum advisers is undone by the nids FAQ.

Formations are detachments. Unless it has a listing under restrictions in the formation, I don't see any RAW reason you cant add non slot models/units to a formation

One thing to remember, the unit entry list in Formations IS a restriction.

You might read it as a restriction but when the sheet literally has a box that is labelled restriction you can surely see the issue.

Also - read cypher - he has an exception saying he can be part of ANY detachment...

 Massaen wrote:
You might read it as a restriction but when the sheet literally has a box that is labelled restriction you can surely see the issue.

Also - read cypher - he has an exception saying he can be part of ANY detachment...

Any detachment that allows him.

Quoted above, formations are a *special type* of detachment. That means they work differently from other detachments.

 Massaen wrote:
You might read it as a restriction but when the sheet literally has a box that is labelled restriction you can surely see the issue.

Also - read cypher - he has an exception saying he can be part of ANY detachment...

Can you include any other units not on its list? No. Therefore it is a restriction.

The tyrranocye question doesn't differentiate between a detachment with slots or a formation where you take unit selections and have not slot options. Formations by RAW do not allow additional selection tions regardless of being in a foc slot or not because they do not use a foc they have required units and you must take the required units, and only those units for the specified formation.

Tldr in a CAD or leviathan detachment for example you can take n tyrranocytes.in a formation you may take 0- the number specified for the formation.

The Tyrannocytes would not be part of the detachment, but you can make a battleforged army with a single formation and as many Tyrannocytes as you could afford.