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 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Davor wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:The hobby is buying games workshop products. Decent rules are not a priority for the company.

Sarcasm or serious?

The company said itself that the hobby was buying GW products. Their rules speak for themselves.

Wasn't that Alan Merret, who left the company recently? If so, that horse is well and truly beaten to death.

 Mymearan wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Davor wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:The hobby is buying games workshop products. Decent rules are not a priority for the company.

Sarcasm or serious?

The company said itself that the hobby was buying GW products. Their rules speak for themselves.

Wasn't that Alan Merret, who left the company recently? If so, that horse is well and truly beaten to death.

Knew that excuse would come out eventually. He's left the company so everything he said is null and void. But of course...

hobojebus wrote:
Not having comments on is a universally recognized sign of cowardice, They don't really want to hear honest feedback on their products they just want fanboys to kiss their tucas.

Echo chambers are bad look what happened under Kirby he filled the company with yes men and no one spoke up against bad ideas.

disagree, maybe in many instances but not all, look at Honest Trailers video of Ghostbusters, they closed comments on it not because they thought people would hate their video, but because of the hate inspired by the new Ghostbusters movie. and they just did not want to hear it. or detract from the video they made because of the comments section.

Haha, I saw that too. Wise move on their part.

Bottom line, there's got to be better ways to get feedback than that cesspool.

Baron Klatz wrote:
Haha, I saw that too. Wise move on their part.

Bottom line, there's got to be better ways to get feedback than that cesspool.

It's not about feedback. It's about feeling part of a community. No company goes to Youtube comments for feedback, a good chunk of them are the internet equivalent of graffiti on toilet walls. But allowing people to engage in commenting makes your offering look less like an echo chamber.

Why is their facebook and other outreaches considered echo chambers? Because they delete trolls, rude and off-topic comments?

On-topic complaints are still kept as long as they're civil.

Here is just one example from the aos Facebook page. Negative comments do not get deleted. Offensive comments do. If you write 'I think the 40k rules are bad' no problem. If you write 'the rule writers are idiots' it will get deleted.

If there are plastic sisters I will buy them no matter what so, yeah if they get that then I am out a lot of money lol
While I am not a huge fantasy fan, 40k isn't all that bad.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are annoying, my Wolves did shoot a Tyrant out of the sky which was pretty funny.

 Mymearan wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Davor wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:The hobby is buying games workshop products. Decent rules are not a priority for the company.

Sarcasm or serious?

The company said itself that the hobby was buying GW products. Their rules speak for themselves.

Wasn't that Alan Merret, who left the company recently? If so, that horse is well and truly beaten to death.

Alan Merrett speaking as a representative of the company. Unless you consider him some sort of rogue agent that speaks something different to the companies attitude and culture?

And said guy being no more in the company doesn't matter how for the future of the company?
That's like holding Kirby's ridiculous speeches against GW now with a new CEO that does stuff differently.

He's gone. He said that, but his influence is past.
Heck, maybe such things were part of the reason he's gone.

 Thairne wrote:
And said guy being no more in the company doesn't matter how for the future of the company?
That's like holding Kirby's ridiculous speeches against GW now with a new CEO that does stuff differently.

He's gone. He said that, but his influence is past.
Heck, maybe such things were part of the reason he's gone.

He's been gone, what..........a couple of weeks? All of this product people are seeing as a return to form was developed whilst he was still there.

Isn't it said that he was opposing SoB and Mechanicus releases?
If that rumour was true, I'd guess he's been removed from relevant decisions for a bit longer than his direct exit date.

Thairne wrote:And said guy being no more in the company doesn't matter how for the future of the company?
That's like holding Kirby's ridiculous speeches against GW now with a new CEO that does stuff differently.

He's gone. He said that, but his influence is past.
Heck, maybe such things were part of the reason he's gone.

If he is gone or if he stays doesn't matter. GW approved of what he said. If GW didn't agree with it, then they would have made a statement that they don't agree with it and it was his opinion. So therefore GW agrees and accepts what he said. Now before someone comes in and says companies don't say these things yes they do. A worker has slagged a woman on a Canadian news outlet and it was found out he worked at Ontario Hydro an Ontario, Canada coperation for electricity. They fired his sorry ass and made a statement "that is not what the company represents and was his own opinion. That shows a company doesn't want to be associated with that kind of talk when someone who works there. So if GW doesn't say they don't disagree with the comment that means they do agree and accept what is said. So GW fully agrees what Kirby and who else says anything.

So things said in the past are still what they think of the future until GW says otherwise. So far GW has made no official statement on it. Maybe when GW starts reducing prices they will make a statement regarding past statements made from previous/current employees. We know GW stand on reducing prices, I am sure we still know how GW feels about us the customers.

If my memory serves right however, it was said under Kirby's reign and with his approval.

If you expect that they offer a official "apology" ... 2? years later after the incident because of a shift in the management - you are holding new GW up to quite impossible standards. It's a shift in the company. They won't go back through their history of PR and issue statements on year old sentences.

The negativity and the bitterness in this thread is astounding.
I might very well be counted among the "optimistic" ones, but so far the far majority of arguments against the improval of GW have been either ignorant (FAQ aren't official, therefore don't count and GW did not release good rules yet, therefore nothing changed), unrealistic (they didn't lower prices by xx% therefore nothing changed) or just spiteful.
-
Again, if you don't agree that GW got BETTER (not good, mind you, but BETTER) I would like to hear a logical argument why

- FAQs
- advancing the storyline
- discounts on box sets
- revival of board games
- revival of specialist games
- new factions people have wanted for ages
- Warhammer TV
- FB pages for the branches of the company

do NOT count as BETTER. Nothing got worse. Above things objectively improved.
Please explain while having a first draft FAQ is not better than no FAQ at all. Or how Betrayal at Calth screwed you. How Demon Primarch Magnus is bad. Why Genestealer Cults are objectively a step back for GW. Why you do not want the Regimental Standard Blog. Why having a place to officially ask GW stuff is not an improvement. Why small painting tutorials via Duncan for things asked by the customers is an offence.

GW has been getting better slowly as it gets rid of the few problem people. It's still about the money, that's obvious, but at least seems to care somewhat about product now which is at least shifting away from the unhealthy short term focus it had under Kirby. Won't have speeches as good as these anymore though.

Tom Kirby, chairman's preamble 7/2015 wrote:I do not often talk about our products, partly because I think they speak eloquently for themselves, and partly because it is
important for everyone to remember (that’s owners, customers and staff) we are a business. We need to be here next year
if you want more of the exquisite models we make. To be here next year we have to do what all our customers want, not
just a noisy few, and find a way of making money doing it. This year, though, is an exceptional year. Not only have we just
opened a wonderful new visitor centre on time and under budget (take a bow, Tony) we have also relaunched
Warhammer.

The visitor centre is a cathedral of miniatures with the world’s largest and most spectacular diorama. Only £7.50 and a day
you will remember all your life.

The new Warhammer is new. The Stormcast Eternals now bestride the universe and nothing will be the same again.
Not even the front of our building. Buy Warhammer: Age of Sigmar when you come to the visitor centre or the AGM, and see
what we have done.

As I write the world is tumbling in chaos around us. Pundits discover they cannot predict elections, the Americans ride to
the rescue of world football (thank you, Uncle Sam), Sunderland escape relegation, again, the UK will split up into its
consistent parts, it will leave Europe; and yet we struggle on. Babies get born, the rain falls the sun shines and the plants
grow, our chickens keep laying, and Games Workshop still employs over 1,500 people, supporting 1,500 families all over
the globe, making the best miniatures money can buy, providing one of the best investments in our owners' portfolios, and
having a great deal of fun doing it.

 Thairne wrote:
Nothing got worse.

Prices of new products and rules (specially for 40k) are getting worse with every new release. And those have actually been GW's main issues for a long while.

So yes, a bunch of minor steps have been taken in the right direction. But the main problems still stand, and aren't getting any better.

 Thairne wrote:
If my memory serves right however, it was said under Kirby's reign and with his approval.

If you expect that they offer a official "apology" ... 2? years later after the incident because of a shift in the management - you are holding new GW up to quite impossible standards. It's a shift in the company. They won't go back through their history of PR and issue statements on year old sentences.

The negativity and the bitterness in this thread is astounding.
I might very well be counted among the "optimistic" ones, but so far the far majority of arguments against the improval of GW have been either ignorant (FAQ aren't official, therefore don't count and GW did not release good rules yet, therefore nothing changed), unrealistic (they didn't lower prices by xx% therefore nothing changed) or just spiteful.
-
Again, if you don't agree that GW got BETTER (not good, mind you, but BETTER) I would like to hear a logical argument why

- FAQs
- advancing the storyline
- discounts on box sets
- revival of board games
- revival of specialist games
- new factions people have wanted for ages
- Warhammer TV
- FB pages for the branches of the company

do NOT count as BETTER. Nothing got worse. Above things objectively improved.
Please explain while having a first draft FAQ is not better than no FAQ at all. Or how Betrayal at Calth screwed you. How Demon Primarch Magnus is bad. Why Genestealer Cults are objectively a step back for GW. Why you do not want the Regimental Standard Blog. Why having a place to officially ask GW stuff is not an improvement. Why small painting tutorials via Duncan for things asked by the customers is an offence.

40K improvements mean nothing when they ended my game of WFB by blowing it up.

Things have improved, as the more cynical ones would say: "being that low they could only go up!".
Never underestimate how much worse a situation can get.
So I will look at this as an actual effort to addressing lagging sales.

I cannot shake feeling like being the long abused spouse and they have had a good day and smiled at me... this is GREAT, now how long will it last?
Answer is probably however long it takes for my wallet to heal and that I have sufficiently doubled-down on new models so we can get back to the old abuse.

BTW do you have any idea on how hard it is to make a viable Deathwatch army?
My "fluff" side is loving it, my competitive side is saying "Nein! dummkopf!!" (he seems so much happier when I play X-wing...).

The starter boxes are a smart move, I find them hard to ignore for the "deal" they offer compared to normal pricing.
I have bought 3 of the bloody things to round-out stuff I had, the SM package works well with a couple Deathwatch packs.
These mini-game bundled packages have been awesome as starters all on their own.
The Imperial Knight / Chaos Knight bundle seemed like a steal for what you got, it even gave a slight boost to the much maligned CSM.

I even grabbed the Killteam rules, which come with a squad of Tau.... looking at that Tau starter army bundle.... not holding off very well.

To view this in the most critical in ways: I have bought probably over $1000 this year on GW stuff which is more than I spent in the last two years.
I would say their recent changes are a success based on my own spending.
Now if only they can look really hard at the rules and I could almost say I am "happy" rather than "grudgingly approve".

Korinov wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Nothing got worse.

Prices of new products and rules (specially for 40k) are getting worse with every new release. And those have actually been GW's main issues for a long while.

So yes, a bunch of minor steps have been taken in the right direction. But the main problems still stand, and aren't getting any better.

The rules are getting worse? I concede the point that the rules are gak.
But they've been gak before. So they currently stagnate on the gakky level. I will refrain from judging that effort until 8th ed comes along, considering the BA supplement that had BS 3 scouts in it. That suggest it was done before the FAQ and only just released.
I don't see them getting worse, just staying gak.
If 8th comes out and no improvement to the rules is done, my optimism will come to a rapid end too.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

40K improvements mean nothing when they ended my game of WFB by blowing it up.

Kirby. Also happened before the new trend emerges.
Guess medicine didn't improve because people died of the black plague in the medieval ages

Mitochondria wrote:A gak sandwich without a side of pubes...is still a gak sandwich.

Yes, I see that logically laid out argument on why GW did not improve.

So right I have a question and I don't mean this to sound like I'm making a dig or being aggressive, just genuine curiosity...

If people are so fethed off and "done" with GW and it's practises, if you've walked away and said "I'm done with this mess" why do people still complain?

Like if you're done with something surely you'd want nothing else to do with it, but still whinging whenever the opportunity is given kind of just reminds me of my vegan friend who will always moan about us eating meat around him.

My apologies if this sounds harsh or something I don't mean it to, just trying to find out peoples reasonings and understand them really

 Thairne wrote:
If my memory serves right however, it was said under Kirby's reign and with his approval.

If you expect that they offer a official "apology" ... 2? years later after the incident because of a shift in the management - you are holding new GW up to quite impossible standards. It's a shift in the company. They won't go back through their history of PR and issue statements on year old sentences.

The negativity and the bitterness in this thread is astounding.
I might very well be counted among the "optimistic" ones, but so far the far majority of arguments against the improval of GW have been either ignorant (FAQ aren't official, therefore don't count and GW did not release good rules yet, therefore nothing changed), unrealistic (they didn't lower prices by xx% therefore nothing changed) or just spiteful.
-
Again, if you don't agree that GW got BETTER (not good, mind you, but BETTER) I would like to hear a logical argument why

- FAQs
- advancing the storyline
- discounts on box sets
- revival of board games
- revival of specialist games
- new factions people have wanted for ages
- Warhammer TV
- FB pages for the branches of the company

do NOT count as BETTER. Nothing got worse. Above things objectively improved.
Please explain while having a first draft FAQ is not better than no FAQ at all. Or how Betrayal at Calth screwed you. How Demon Primarch Magnus is bad. Why Genestealer Cults are objectively a step back for GW. Why you do not want the Regimental Standard Blog. Why having a place to officially ask GW stuff is not an improvement. Why small painting tutorials via Duncan for things asked by the customers is an offence.

I want a tight balanced ruleset for 40K. New releases (such as Genestealer Cults) don't help that, only make things more of a mess.
Fix the game before you start adding to it.
In addition, If you are going to release updates for existing factions, make sure they fix some of the long standing problems. Releasing Angels Blade with all of it problems doesn't inspire confidence.

KalexKurosaki wrote:
So right I have a question and I don't mean this to sound like I'm making a dig or being aggressive, just genuine curiosity...

If people are so fethed off and "done" with GW and it's practises, if you've walked away and said "I'm done with this mess" why do people still complain?

Like if you're done with something surely you'd want nothing else to do with it, but still whinging whenever the opportunity is given kind of just reminds me of my vegan friend who will always moan about us eating meat around him.

My apologies if this sounds harsh or something I don't mean it to, just trying to find out peoples reasonings and understand them really

Because people don't want to be "done."

They still care, they likely still have a collection of models that represents a substantial investment of time and money. They probably still have good memories of the game and still have an interest in the lore. They might even still find a lot of the models attractive purchases.

Line all that up and place it on a collision course with a gaming experience that's become increasingly unsatisfying for many and a bunch of successive issues which seem to suggest GW is, perhaps actively, trying to drive customers away because they deviate so far from conventional approaches to running a successful business and you have a situation which generates a huge amount of frustration.

Talizvar wrote:Things have improved, as the more cynical ones would say: "being that low they could only go up!".
Never underestimate how much worse a situation can get.
So I will look at this as an actual effort to addressing lagging sales.

I cannot shake feeling like being the long abused spouse and they have had a good day and smiled at me... this is GREAT, now how long will it last?
Answer is probably however long it takes for my wallet to heal and that I have sufficiently doubled-down on new models so we can get back to the old abuse.

BTW do you have any idea on how hard it is to make a viable Deathwatch army?
My "fluff" side is loving it, my competitive side is saying "Nein! dummkopf!!" (he seems so much happier when I play X-wing...).

The starter boxes are a smart move, I find them hard to ignore for the "deal" they offer compared to normal pricing.
I have bought 3 of the bloody things to round-out stuff I had, the SM package works well with a couple Deathwatch packs.
These mini-game bundled packages have been awesome as starters all on their own.
The Imperial Knight / Chaos Knight bundle seemed like a steal for what you got, it even gave a slight boost to the much maligned CSM.

I even grabbed the Killteam rules, which come with a squad of Tau.... looking at that Tau starter army bundle.... not holding off very well.

To view this in the most critical in ways: I have bought probably over $1000 this year on GW stuff which is more than I spent in the last two years.
I would say their recent changes are a success based on my own spending.
Now if only they can look really hard at the rules and I could almost say I am "happy" rather than "grudgingly approve".

Very well said.

@KalexKurosaki, First off, nice title and welcome to the forum.

You should have seen the AoS Facebook announcement of points being added to the game, it was a laugh riot.

So many posts of "too late GW, I've moved on", " you can't win me back" or "I've already found better games than you". Just the idea that they already moved on to other systems, stalked the GW news rumors and got onto Facebook just to say they don't care what they do anymore is hilarious and so telling of how dramatic this fanbase is.

Azreal13 makes some really good points but it doesn't stop this stuff feeling like a cheesy soap opera.

Coming back into the hobby after a very long time away (Killteam). Struck by a few things.

first, oldoldold:

When did codexes become so laughably expensive?

What happened to the old Bogoff offers of my youth?

Hmm, Warhammer seems to have changed, no real opinion on it though.

Newnewnew:

Wow, those genestealer cultist kits are amazing. Deffo getting some neophytes for Christmas. Vs. What on earth are those squat little spacemarine helicopters?

These 'theme boxed sets' are very cool, but do they all have to be filled with space marines? Hopefully a guard one if they sell well?

I am very excited by the Sisters of Battle rumour though!

But if this is their comeback year, what on earth was 2015 like?

AgeofBlunders wrote:

When did codexes become so laughably expensive?

Yearly price hikes for about 15 years in a row does this. Also the less the people buy the more the prices increased.

Books are cheap to design and quick, printing in bulk is fairly cheap and it's impossible to play without them so they generate large profit for little expensive on GW's part.

Once I'd collect every book when they were around a tenner, no way I do that at £30 a pop.

Compare it to fow where I got my armies book for £7 in colour it's clear how obscene the books prices are.

 Mymearan wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Davor wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:The hobby is buying games workshop products. Decent rules are not a priority for the company.

Sarcasm or serious?

The company said itself that the hobby was buying GW products. Their rules speak for themselves.

Wasn't that Alan Merret, who left the company recently? If so, that horse is well and truly beaten to death.

That's in their report to shareholders. Not stated quite so bluntly, but they make it very clear that they're in the business of selling "premium collectibles", not game design.

the only thing that GW has ever done that turned me off, was release Finecast....
that made me miss out on at least a dozen minis that i really, really wanted...
i am happy to see that they are not doing any new releases in that rubbish "resin"...
so, yeah, GW has gotten better in my eyes...
plastics are so much better to work with

cheers
jah

Bartali wrote:

I want a tight balanced ruleset for 40K. New releases (such as Genestealer Cults) don't help that, only make things more of a mess.
Fix the game before you start adding to it.
In addition, If you are going to release updates for existing factions, make sure they fix some of the long standing problems. Releasing Angels Blade with all of it problems doesn't inspire confidence.

And how would you propose they do that?
They are working on an 8th edition for all the rumors we heard. They regarded 7th as a failed edition.
Making a complete new 8th that is no 7th and just reiterates a few things of 6th and does what we all want, fix the ruleset, will take a LONG time.
What is GW supposed to to in that time, not release any new stuff and go into bankruptcy? Fire the model designers since they won't have anything to do?

GW is a company, not a garage store that can put out what YOU want in the blink of an eye. It takes time to turn a ship around. Rountree might have given the "order" to fix the rules, but you still won't know it until it arrives.

This kind of thinking really starts to bug me. Being a software dev, I know that things take time. Developing a new ruleset or a new big feature for your software are somewhat comparable.
If you criticize GW for something, think about it a few seconds. Is what you want even possible or are you just being a negative nancy because you're so bitter and disappointed with the past?

I still stand by it. Didn't see a good argument against it yet.

GW has gotten a lot better.
The rules is the last, big bastion they have to conquer.