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Does your imagination get broken as the fluff starts to progress forward beyond a set date?

It's not the "date" it's when the setting advances to the point as to start breaking the reasons you might have started an army in the first place or in some cases your ability to actually collect a certain force (Bretonnians, Tomb Kings, Squats, swathes of units for WHFB that were removed even if the army itself wasn't removed).

You can of course imagine your own setting which may be a historical setting within the provided setting, but the point of the game manufacturer providing a setting in the first place is to give a compelling reason to start, collect and play a certain force while keeping the community on the same page.

Taken to the extreme you could just say "why have a setting at all if people can just imagine stuff?"

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Infact why wouldn't it help increase it as it adds new battlefields and wars and other things you could use.

On the flip side, why can't you just imagine your own battlefields and wars within a setting that isn't advancing?

Obviously it's all just personal preference. I don't begrudge people for wanting an advancing setting, but I personally do not want one and think it detracts from a wargaming setting to have it shifting rather than just having a solid foundation that you explore in more depth rather than actually altering.

On the flip side, why can't you just imagine your own battlefields and wars within a setting that isn't advancing?

Obviously it's all just personal preference. I don't begrudge people for wanting an advancing setting, but I personally do not want one and think it detracts from a wargaming setting to have it shifting rather than just having a solid foundation that you explore in more depth rather than actually altering.

The problem with one is that one preference is still able to be catered to in both situations while one is stagnant. In both cases you'll still have your imagination to be able to explore a setting in full but if one doesn't have an advancing storyline it will feel stagnant to those who don't prefer a setting just sit there on the edge of midnight.

One can use new things from new era's for their advancing storyline while the former still has that and all the available previously, thus why I don't honestly understand the dislike towards an advancing storyline based on the principle of exploring a setting.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Does your imagination get broken as the fluff starts to progress forward beyond a set date?

It's not the "date" it's when the setting advances to the point as to start breaking the reasons you might have started an army in the first place or in some cases your ability to actually collect a certain force (Bretonnians, Tomb Kings, Squats, swathes of units for WHFB that were removed even if the army itself wasn't removed).

You can of course imagine your own setting which may be a historical setting within the provided setting, but the point of the game manufacturer providing a setting in the first place is to give a compelling reason to start, collect and play a certain force while keeping the community on the same page.

Taken to the extreme you could just say "why have a setting at all if people can just imagine stuff?"

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Infact why wouldn't it help increase it as it adds new battlefields and wars and other things you could use.

On the flip side, why can't you just imagine your own battlefields and wars within a setting that isn't advancing?

Obviously it's all just personal preference. I don't begrudge people for wanting an advancing setting, but I personally do not want one and think it detracts from a wargaming setting to have it shifting rather than just having a solid foundation that you explore in more depth rather than actually altering.

Well said. I can see your point of view now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Does your imagination get broken as the fluff starts to progress forward beyond a set date?

It's not the "date" it's when the setting advances to the point as to start breaking the reasons you might have started an army in the first place or in some cases your ability to actually collect a certain force (Bretonnians, Tomb Kings, Squats, swathes of units for WHFB that were removed even if the army itself wasn't removed).

You can of course imagine your own setting which may be a historical setting within the provided setting, but the point of the game manufacturer providing a setting in the first place is to give a compelling reason to start, collect and play a certain force while keeping the community on the same page.

Taken to the extreme you could just say "why have a setting at all if people can just imagine stuff?"

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Infact why wouldn't it help increase it as it adds new battlefields and wars and other things you could use.

On the flip side, why can't you just imagine your own battlefields and wars within a setting that isn't advancing?

Obviously it's all just personal preference. I don't begrudge people for wanting an advancing setting, but I personally do not want one and think it detracts from a wargaming setting to have it shifting rather than just having a solid foundation that you explore in more depth rather than actually altering.

This....

But to those poeple who are in for the advancement of the plot line:

Settra could have had a rebelious Tomb King ( not Arkhan ), who questionned his authority, aka thing happining in Khemri.

There could have been a major chaos cultist uprising lets say in Stirland with Beastmen support. Plot is is moving forward.

Golgfag Meaneater could have brought a bunch of angry Ogres agianst Karak Kadrin thus Ungrim ask help from the High King and it begins a Ogre-Dwarf war. Plot is moving forward.

Etc. etc.

A good writer can write a good book about a dark room or two people just waiting for man ( Waiting for Godot ).

So how about the financial report? No matter if they got better or not, their profits have increased so they got better that way.

Smoke and Mirrors are working. True test now will be 8th edition and GW real colours will show. 6 months or so and counting if rumours are true.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
However this thought baffles me however, could you not just play in the former ages as you do now even as the setting advances? Does your imagination get broken as the fluff starts to progress forward beyond a set date? Infact why wouldn't it help increase it as it adds new battlefields and wars and other things you could use.

No. But problem is you start having your _base_ replaced making your fluff makes zero sense.

Imagine how much current 40k fluff makes sense if horus heresy was removed? You would have to recreate fluff pretty much completely.

Our High elf vs dark elf campaigns lost all sensibility with EOS Khaine. It did not just change date. It undermined whole basic assumptions.

No it's not Smoke and Mirrors.

It's a Win-Win.

It's been a storming 6 months and no mistake, but the remaining question is sustainability.

Like it or not, it seems AoS is doing well - and if taken at face value, better than GW expected.

But 40k? Well, we've had some much clamoured for releases recently, most notably Genestealer Cults - that's a crowd pleaser for sure, as are plakky Thousand Sons and the inherent promise other Legions will get some love.

Prospero has allowed me to put together a 3,000 point heresy force in double quick time for relatively little outlay (three copies...hehehehe)

Their community engagement has been pretty damned good, and well received by the majority so far as I'm aware.

Question is, how to keep it up? There's definitely still tin in the mine for now, but there's always the threat of diminishing returns.

Personally, I'm happy they'll keep to the current course for the simple reason it works, and there's more to come (Adeptus Titanicus is getting a hefty broadside from the Grotsnik Kustom Mk1 Kash Kannon on release, as might Necromunda if/when we see it).

But it's inevitable that what is fresh will, over time, become stale.

Genuine worst case scenario? GW prove too successful, and attract enough of the general populace's collective wargaming moneypot to see off some of their smaller competitors (those just starting out), and even the possibility of shoving larger rivals onto a slippy slope. Why is this bad? It could lead to complacency, and the cycle repeating itself all over again, which isn't terribly good business.

Now, if they prove the absolute, unequivocal market force once again (they're still the biggest by a long shot), but continue to engage and enthuse, no issues there.

SKR.HH wrote:
No it's not Smoke and Mirrors.

It's a Win-Win.

Of course it's smoke and mirrors. It gets people back into buying. GW gave the discount on the plastic crack, but if you want more plastic crack and if it's not in the "saver boxes" you are still paying way over priced minis. So not sure how it's a Win-win. Rules are still a mess. Not seeing how it's a Win-win. Balance is still a total mess. How is that a Win-win?

For now, we have the illusion of change. Appearance. We are not belittled out in public anymore. If you don't care for social media then all the stuff GW is doing means nothing. Until the rules are fixed and then there is worth to the prices GW charges, there has been no change. So yes, it's all smoke and mirrors. The game plays no differently and outside "saver boxes" prices are just going up up up.

Davor wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:
No it's not Smoke and Mirrors.

It's a Win-Win.

Of course it's smoke and mirrors. It gets people back into buying. GW gave the discount on the plastic crack, but if you want more plastic crack and if it's not in the "saver boxes" you are still paying way over priced minis. So not sure how it's a Win-win. Rules are still a mess. Not seeing how it's a Win-win. Balance is still a total mess. How is that a Win-win?

For now, we have the illusion of change. Appearance. We are not belittled out in public anymore. If you don't care for social media then all the stuff GW is doing means nothing. Until the rules are fixed and then there is worth to the prices GW charges, there has been no change. So yes, it's all smoke and mirrors. The game plays no differently and outside "saver boxes" prices are just going up up up.

You are so prejudiced with 40k rules that you are not able to see the other things. Besides everything that I have argued troughout the thread (social media, return of SG and even prices): AoS rules (now with points) are fine and I heard no complaints about BB rules. There is even the second FAQ for BB out. So there is one part where they still have to provide substantial change (which I partially understand). But this belittles evertyhing to Smoke and Mirrors? Sorry, but I can't take that seriously!

Don't worry SKR, nobody takes that seriously.

SKR.HH wrote:

Davor wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:
No it's not Smoke and Mirrors.

It's a Win-Win.

Of course it's smoke and mirrors. It gets people back into buying. GW gave the discount on the plastic crack, but if you want more plastic crack and if it's not in the "saver boxes" you are still paying way over priced minis. So not sure how it's a Win-win. Rules are still a mess. Not seeing how it's a Win-win. Balance is still a total mess. How is that a Win-win?

For now, we have the illusion of change. Appearance. We are not belittled out in public anymore. If you don't care for social media then all the stuff GW is doing means nothing. Until the rules are fixed and then there is worth to the prices GW charges, there has been no change. So yes, it's all smoke and mirrors. The game plays no differently and outside "saver boxes" prices are just going up up up.

You are so prejudiced with 40k rules that you are not able to see the other things. Besides everything that I have argued troughout the thread (social media, return of SG and even prices): AoS rules (now with points) are fine and I heard no complaints about BB rules. There is even the second FAQ for BB out. So there is one part where they still have to provide substantial change (which I partially understand). But this belittles evertyhing to Smoke and Mirrors? Sorry, but I can't take that seriously!

Have the Blood Bowl rules actually changed in any real way from their last iteration?

It's smoke and mirrors because they haven't gone back to fix the other problems. They gave AOS points, and that was well received (whether or not it should have been done, that's another argument). They have some boxes that save money, but once you get past that it's still as expensive as ever, so it's essentially the drug dealer's approach (i.e. "First hit is free/cheap, then you gotta pay up"). 40k is still a complete mess. Armies still get updated infrequently. They still don't put out a lot of narrative things for a game they claim is unsuited to competitive play.

They have improved, that has not been denied, but it remains to be seen if it's a ploy or not. It very well could be if they show no indication of doing more, just enough to get good PR and then keep everything else the same.

Wayniac wrote:
It's smoke and mirrors because they haven't gone back to fix the other problems. They gave AOS points, and that was well received (whether or not it should have been done, that's another argument). They have some boxes that save money, but once you get past that it's still as expensive as ever, so it's essentially the drug dealer's approach (i.e. "First hit is free/cheap, then you gotta pay up"). 40k is still a complete mess. Armies still get updated infrequently. They still don't put out a lot of narrative things for a game they claim is unsuited to competitive play.

They have improved, that has not been denied, but it remains to be seen if it's a ploy or not. It very well could be if they show no indication of doing more, just enough to get good PR and then keep everything else the same.

I just have to point out that they don't say 40k/AoS isn't a competitive game anymore. They are actually highlighting that style of play equally with Narrative now on a weekly basis. And they have put out a fair bit of narrative stuff in the last year. AoS saw 3? Campaign books. 40k saw at least 3 sets (CotW, WoM, and the two initial Black Crusade books). Arguably they've released more for narrative than they have for competitive.

Also no, it's gotten much cheaper than in the previous 5 years (or even decade). You can play tournament AoS for less than $350 for 2k AT RETAIL. You can play 40k is cheaper but still far to high for the ultra competitive lists. But you can get 1850 together at retail for around $500 (to high but cheaper) at Retail.

Agreed 40k is still a mess. I enjoy it but god it's in a terrible place for someone starting. Hoping 8th rights the ship (and I've heard good things and it's actually being play tested this time around) but a lot hinges on that going right.

 Hulksmash wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
It's smoke and mirrors because they haven't gone back to fix the other problems. They gave AOS points, and that was well received (whether or not it should have been done, that's another argument). They have some boxes that save money, but once you get past that it's still as expensive as ever, so it's essentially the drug dealer's approach (i.e. "First hit is free/cheap, then you gotta pay up"). 40k is still a complete mess. Armies still get updated infrequently. They still don't put out a lot of narrative things for a game they claim is unsuited to competitive play.

They have improved, that has not been denied, but it remains to be seen if it's a ploy or not. It very well could be if they show no indication of doing more, just enough to get good PR and then keep everything else the same.

I just have to point out that they don't say 40k/AoS isn't a competitive game anymore. They are actually highlighting that style of play equally with Narrative now on a weekly basis. And they have put out a fair bit of narrative stuff in the last year. AoS saw 3? Campaign books. 40k saw at least 3 sets (CotW, WoM, and the two initial Black Crusade books). Arguably they've released more for narrative than they have for competitive.

Also no, it's gotten much cheaper than in the previous 5 years (or even decade). You can play tournament AoS for less than $350 for 2k AT RETAIL. You can play 40k is cheaper but still far to high for the ultra competitive lists. But you can get 1850 together at retail for around $500 (to high but cheaper) at Retail.

Agreed 40k is still a mess. I enjoy it but god it's in a terrible place for someone starting. Hoping 8th rights the ship (and I've heard good things and it's actually being play tested this time around) but a lot hinges on that going right.

As an aside, iirc, GW has been distancing themselves from the tournament scene i thought? At least thats what i have been seeing, reasoning being they dont actually want to host or sponsor them because it causes to much drama/bullgak. I know my store at least says they never host prize tournaments.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


As an aside, iirc, GW has been distancing themselves from the tournament scene i thought? At least thats what i have been seeing, reasoning being they dont actually want to host or sponsor them because it causes to much drama/bullgak. I know my store at least says they never host prize tournaments.

That's mostly old GW, distancing itself from everything that's not GW.

I believe the new GW has been trying to get closer to the tournament scene.

Yup, they've been showing up at AoS events to cover them and video top tables. They'll be at LVO (largest 40k tournament in the world pretty sure with 500 players in singles GT event alone) and Adepticon (one of the other largest 40k events in the world with the Team Tournament normally clocking in around 450 players). They highlight a competitive and narrative game every week for both systems on their broadcast and are actively engaging TO's of major US and UK events.

Oh, and they are providing trophies either LVO or Adepticon or both (can't remember).

They're happy to have others running them but have finally under the new management realized that they can benefit massively from it if done correctly for little or no major output.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yup, they've been showing up at AoS events to cover them and video top tables. They'll be at LVO (largest 40k tournament in the world pretty sure with 500 players in singles GT event alone) and Adepticon (one of the other largest 40k events in the world with the Team Tournament normally clocking in around 450 players). They highlight a competitive and narrative game every week for both systems on their broadcast and are actively engaging TO's of major US and UK events.

Oh, and they are providing trophies either LVO or Adepticon or both (can't remember).

They're happy to have others running them but have finally under the new management realized that they can benefit massively from it if done correctly for little or no major output.

I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

"Smoke and mirrors" is the new "Thanks Obama".

morgoth wrote:
I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

While the Start playing (or whatever they're called) boxes are good, the Christmas bundles were a, restricted to too few factions; b, restricted in volume to non-GW LGS' (at best three per box per store, from what I heard); and c, just restricted in volume overall.

Make some equivalent bundles - even if not quite as good value - available as a second-stage starting point to a faction, as a core part of the product line, then we'll talk.

As to providing some degree of tournament coverage and support, that is a good thing. Especially if seeing what is happening at those events exposes GW to the sort of degenerate combos that tend to make up top-end tournament lists, to illustrate balance problems in the games.

 Dysartes wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

While the Start playing (or whatever they're called) boxes are good, the Christmas bundles were a, restricted to too few factions; b, restricted in volume to non-GW LGS' (at best three per box per store, from what I heard); and c, just restricted in volume overall.

Make some equivalent bundles - even if not quite as good value - available as a second-stage starting point to a faction, as a core part of the product line, then we'll talk.

As to providing some degree of tournament coverage and support, that is a good thing. Especially if seeing what is happening at those events exposes GW to the sort of degenerate combos that tend to make up top-end tournament lists, to illustrate balance problems in the games.

Couldn't you buy those Christmas bundles online ?

 Dysartes wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

While the Start playing (or whatever they're called) boxes are good, the Christmas bundles were a, restricted to too few factions; b, restricted in volume to non-GW LGS' (at best three per box per store, from what I heard); and c, just restricted in volume overall.

Make some equivalent bundles - even if not quite as good value - available as a second-stage starting point to a faction, as a core part of the product line, then we'll talk.

As to providing some degree of tournament coverage and support, that is a good thing. Especially if seeing what is happening at those events exposes GW to the sort of degenerate combos that tend to make up top-end tournament lists, to illustrate balance problems in the games.

Ehm, what about the Armoured Assault boxes? Can't tell about every army but for quite some of them they contain essential models at a (once more nice) discount...

Company certainly on the up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/01/10/profits-soar-games-workshop-fantasy-model-retailer-battles-back/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

SKR.HH wrote:

Davor wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:
No it's not Smoke and Mirrors.

It's a Win-Win.

Of course it's smoke and mirrors. It gets people back into buying. GW gave the discount on the plastic crack, but if you want more plastic crack and if it's not in the "saver boxes" you are still paying way over priced minis. So not sure how it's a Win-win. Rules are still a mess. Not seeing how it's a Win-win. Balance is still a total mess. How is that a Win-win?

For now, we have the illusion of change. Appearance. We are not belittled out in public anymore. If you don't care for social media then all the stuff GW is doing means nothing. Until the rules are fixed and then there is worth to the prices GW charges, there has been no change. So yes, it's all smoke and mirrors. The game plays no differently and outside "saver boxes" prices are just going up up up.

You are so prejudiced with 40k rules that you are not able to see the other things. Besides everything that I have argued troughout the thread (social media, return of SG and even prices): AoS rules (now with points) are fine and I heard no complaints about BB rules. There is even the second FAQ for BB out. So there is one part where they still have to provide substantial change (which I partially understand). But this belittles evertyhing to Smoke and Mirrors? Sorry, but I can't take that seriously!

Of course I am prejudiced. I don't care for social media. So why would all the stuff I care for? For me it's the rules and the price. It's my opinion. It seems that is for a lot of people as well. Again, as I said before, I bought a lot last year in 2016 of GW products. While the new "attitude" worked in the end 40K is still a mess, and the costs are still high. Please tell me where I can buy a Trygon cheaper? How about some Tyrant Guard, or any other Tyranid product that is not a Warrior, Genestealer, Tyrant or now Tervigon?

I laugh at the "prices are cheaper now because of 'value boxes' ". If you want to add to your army and as I said, it's not in a value box, the prices are still high.

morgoth wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Yup, they've been showing up at AoS events to cover them and video top tables. They'll be at LVO (largest 40k tournament in the world pretty sure with 500 players in singles GT event alone) and Adepticon (one of the other largest 40k events in the world with the Team Tournament normally clocking in around 450 players). They highlight a competitive and narrative game every week for both systems on their broadcast and are actively engaging TO's of major US and UK events.

Oh, and they are providing trophies either LVO or Adepticon or both (can't remember).

They're happy to have others running them but have finally under the new management realized that they can benefit massively from it if done correctly for little or no major output.

I'm sure our friends at "GW is Evil inc." will discard that as Smoke and Mirrors. After all it does nothing to fix the prices (unlike Christmas bundles or start playing) and nothing to fix the rules (unlike the 16 fething pages of BRB FAQ).

Oh thank you very much. Yes, Read rule book go to page 34 then to page 193 back to page 75. Oh and then check FAQ, go to your codex, page 37, then to page 99 and back to the FAQ.

NO the FAQs didn't fix the game. The game is still unbalanced. There is way too much codex creep. Oh and how about the rules for Cawl and what not? I won't mention those until next week till we know for sure since they are still rumours. But let's say for now they are true. How is your 16 pages of BRB FAQ fixing the unbalanced in points, rules, codex creep? HMMMMM? Yes please explain that.

So thank you very much for proving on how GW has not fixed the game yet. Greatly appreciated.

Davor wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:

Davor wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:
No it's not Smoke and Mirrors.

It's a Win-Win.

Of course it's smoke and mirrors. It gets people back into buying. GW gave the discount on the plastic crack, but if you want more plastic crack and if it's not in the "saver boxes" you are still paying way over priced minis. So not sure how it's a Win-win. Rules are still a mess. Not seeing how it's a Win-win. Balance is still a total mess. How is that a Win-win?

For now, we have the illusion of change. Appearance. We are not belittled out in public anymore. If you don't care for social media then all the stuff GW is doing means nothing. Until the rules are fixed and then there is worth to the prices GW charges, there has been no change. So yes, it's all smoke and mirrors. The game plays no differently and outside "saver boxes" prices are just going up up up.

You are so prejudiced with 40k rules that you are not able to see the other things. Besides everything that I have argued troughout the thread (social media, return of SG and even prices): AoS rules (now with points) are fine and I heard no complaints about BB rules. There is even the second FAQ for BB out. So there is one part where they still have to provide substantial change (which I partially understand). But this belittles evertyhing to Smoke and Mirrors? Sorry, but I can't take that seriously!

Of course I am prejudiced. I don't care for social media. So why would all the stuff I care for? For me it's the rules and the price. It's my opinion. It seems that is for a lot of people as well. Again, as I said before, I bought a lot last year in 2016 of GW products. While the new "attitude" worked in the end 40K is still a mess, and the costs are still high. Please tell me where I can buy a Trygon cheaper? How about some Tyrant Guard, or any other Tyranid product that is not a Warrior, Genestealer, Tyrant or now Tervigon?

I laugh at the "prices are cheaper now because of 'value boxes' ". If you want to add to your army and as I said, it's not in a value box, the prices are still high.

Please point me to ANY game where you can get all and any of the models you want cheaper? Privateer Press, X-Wing, FOW? Please, please point me in that direction. Because it's hypocrite that you expect GW to do so and NONE of the others is doing so either. But as morgoth already pointed out: "GW is evil inc".

For number of models needed you certainly can get Privateer Press cheaper. I see people spout that bs all the time about "price per model" but for what you actually need for a list, it's roughly 50% of the price. I've spent about $700 on PP models over the course of a year and a half and have more than enough to field 2 armies, that's maybe 1 large army for 40k.

So yes, it is cheaper for other games. Not at price per model, because that's irrelevant, but when you look at the amount actually needed for a typical size list.

Wayniac wrote:
For number of models needed you certainly can get Privateer Press cheaper. I see people spout that bs all the time about "price per model" but for what you actually need for a list, it's roughly 50% of the price. I've spent about $700 on PP models over the course of a year and a half and have more than enough to field 2 armies, that's maybe 1 large army for 40k.

So yes, it is cheaper for other games. Not at price per model, because that's irrelevant, but when you look at the amount actually needed for a typical size list.

That was not the question. Davor complained that value boxes don't count because he can't freely choose. I would like to know who offers something like this.

SKR.HH wrote:

Please point me to ANY game where you can get all and any of the models you want cheaper? Privateer Press, X-Wing, FOW? Please, please point me in that direction. Because it's hypocrite that you expect GW to do so and NONE of the others is doing so either. But as morgoth already pointed out: "GW is evil inc".

No GW is not the evil INC. So not sure what that is all about. But it's one of their issues. So you are deflecting me from not answering or changing what is talked about by from other companies doing the same thing eh? Well as others have told me, that is apples to oranges. On a per mini bases, in a lot of cases GW still costs more. On a total, GW just blows the other companies out of the water on how much you need to spend to play a game.

But then again why are you making it out as if this is the first time ever someone mentions that the prices GW charges is not an issue. I am sure I am not alone in saying GW charges way to much. I have read about this in a few different threads today about how people wish GW charged less or didn't charge so much for what they are asking for. So I am not alone. I am not sure why you are making it out that this is a non issue and trying to embarrass me. This is an issue to a lot of people.

But let's get back to your point. I bought X-wing for about $60 Canadian dollars and started playing right away. I can't do that with 40K. If we are going to compare Games Workshop with Privateer Press, on equal point games each you still have to pay more for 40K over Warmahordes. I can buy a $60 box of PP minis and start playing right away. I can't do that with 40K. PP even gives the rules in the box on how to play. I can't do that with 40K. I can pick any faction and start playing for $60. Can't do that with 40K. I can get the rules for free with PP. Can't do that for 40K.

Funny how PP is asking what $60 for their "stater or value" sets and GW is asking $100 for their same sets.

Where are the free rules on the net for 40K?

So what was that about price? PP is more expensive or as expensive as 40K? Thank you very much again for making me correct and proving my point again. There is no hypocrite here at all.

Davor wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:

Please point me to ANY game where you can get all and any of the models you want cheaper? Privateer Press, X-Wing, FOW? Please, please point me in that direction. Because it's hypocrite that you expect GW to do so and NONE of the others is doing so either. But as morgoth already pointed out: "GW is evil inc".

No GW is not the evil INC. So not sure what that is all about. But it's one of their issues. So you are deflecting me from not answering or changing what is talked about by from other companies doing the same thing eh? Well as others have told me, that is apples to oranges. On a per mini bases, in a lot of cases GW still costs more. On a total, GW just blows the other companies out of the water on how much you need to spend to play a game.

But then again why are you making it out as if this is the first time ever someone mentions that the prices GW charges is not an issue. I am sure I am not alone in saying GW charges way to much. I have read about this in a few different threads today about how people wish GW charged less or didn't charge so much for what they are asking for. So I am not alone. I am not sure why you are making it out that this is a non issue and trying to embarrass me. This is an issue to a lot of people.

Nobody ever said anything against a rather high price point. Everybody is pointing out that it actually became cheaper because of SC, the x-mas boxes and now armoured assault. Yes, there are stupid exceptions like Kharn. No, you can't get whatever you want. But the overall cost for an army is reduced compared to the time at the end of Kirbys reign. And you still shout "Smoke and Mirrors", "Smoke and Mirrors" because they don't provide a flat out price reduction?

But let's get back to your point. I bought X-wing for about $60 Canadian dollars and started playing right away. I can't do that with 40K. If we are going to compare Games Workshop with Privateer Press, on equal point games each you still have to pay more for 40K over Warmahordes. I can buy a $60 box of PP minis and start playing right away. I can't do that with 40K. PP even gives the rules in the box on how to play. I can't do that with 40K. I can pick any faction and start playing for $60. Can't do that with 40K. I can get the rules for free with PP. Can't do that for 40K.

You get three meager ships in that starter wheras the AoS or WH40K starter gets you loads more minis. For 110 USD. I'm pretty sure the value stands way better for WH40K. For AoS you actually can start with a SC box as the rules are free. Or take the Spire of Dawn and even start two armies and share with a friend. .

Davor wrote:

SKR.HH wrote:

Please point me to ANY game where you can get all and any of the models you want cheaper? Privateer Press, X-Wing, FOW? Please, please point me in that direction. Because it's hypocrite that you expect GW to do so and NONE of the others is doing so either. But as morgoth already pointed out: "GW is evil inc".

No GW is not the evil INC. So not sure what that is all about. But it's one of their issues. So you are deflecting me from not answering or changing what is talked about by from other companies doing the same thing eh? Well as others have told me, that is apples to oranges. On a per mini bases, in a lot of cases GW still costs more. On a total, GW just blows the other companies out of the water on how much you need to spend to play a game.

But then again why are you making it out as if this is the first time ever someone mentions that the prices GW charges is not an issue. I am sure I am not alone in saying GW charges way to much. I have read about this in a few different threads today about how people wish GW charged less or didn't charge so much for what they are asking for. So I am not alone. I am not sure why you are making it out that this is a non issue and trying to embarrass me. This is an issue to a lot of people.

But let's get back to your point. I bought X-wing for about $60 Canadian dollars and started playing right away. I can't do that with 40K. If we are going to compare Games Workshop with Privateer Press, on equal point games each you still have to pay more for 40K over Warmahordes. I can buy a $60 box of PP minis and start playing right away. I can't do that with 40K. PP even gives the rules in the box on how to play. I can't do that with 40K. I can pick any faction and start playing for $60. Can't do that with 40K. I can get the rules for free with PP. Can't do that for 40K.

Funny how PP is asking what $60 for their "stater or value" sets and GW is asking $100 for their same sets.

Where are the free rules on the net for 40K?

So what was that about price? PP is more expensive or as expensive as 40K? Thank you very much again for making me correct and proving my point again. There is no hypocrite here at all.

As much as I enjoy all 3 games you've mentioned, you're giving too much credit to WM/H. You can get ONE side of a starter army for that $60. X-Wing and GW both give you two sides. To get a 2 player starter set from PP would be $120 by your example. X-Wing gives the cheapest starter set, but you also only get 3 ships. Best monetary value for your buck is still a GW starter. Of course, you have to like what you get. The best value in the world is worthless if you hate what you have.