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 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


Interesting that you put in red type "select A weapon", not "select ONE weapon". Being told you may replace firing one weapon means exactly that, firing one weapon. It does not mean replacing two weapons with something else twice. They would have used "a weapon" or "for up to as many weapons as you can fire" or something along those lines if they had meant for you to apply it more than once in the shooting phase. One means one. One is not two or more.

Answer a simple question.

The Dominus has two shooting weapons. How many times in the Shooting Sequence is the Dominus 'firing one of his weapons'?

Once. After he fires one of his weapons he fires the other of his weapons if he fires again.

Being told you may replace firing one weapon does not mean getting to replace firing multiple weapons with that action multiple times. From a rules standpoint, you are not allowed to make a "replace one" into "replace each" or "replace many". You are not told that you can replace each of his shooting attacks, only one of his shooting attacks.


You keep wanting to make 1 = 2.

Now, your turn. According to the words in the rule, how many shooting attacks may you replace - one, all, as many as you want up to what you can fire? There's only one right answer in that selection.

You are being daft in your response.

Each time the model is allowed to repeat steps 3 - 6 of the Shooting Sequence 'firing one of his weapons' will occur. That happens twice in the case of the Dominus since he has two shooting weapons.

The rules allow me to use Master of Machines instead of 'firing one of his weapons' which happens twice.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


Interesting that you put in red type "select A weapon", not "select ONE weapon". Being told you may replace firing one weapon means exactly that, firing one weapon. It does not mean replacing two weapons with something else twice. They would have used "a weapon" or "for up to as many weapons as you can fire" or something along those lines if they had meant for you to apply it more than once in the shooting phase. One means one. One is not two or more.

Answer a simple question.

The Dominus has two shooting weapons. How many times in the Shooting Sequence is the Dominus 'firing one of his weapons'?

Once. After he fires one of his weapons he fires the other of his weapons if he fires again.

Being told you may replace firing one weapon does not mean getting to replace firing multiple weapons with that action multiple times. From a rules standpoint, you are not allowed to make a "replace one" into "replace each" or "replace many". You are not told that you can replace each of his shooting attacks, only one of his shooting attacks.


You keep wanting to make 1 = 2.

Now, your turn. According to the words in the rule, how many shooting attacks may you replace - one, all, as many as you want up to what you can fire? There's only one right answer in that selection.

You are being daft in your response.

Each time the model is allowed to repeat steps 3 - 6 of the Shooting Sequence 'firing one of his weapons' will occur. That happens twice in the case of the Dominus since he has two shooting weapons.

The rules allow me to use Master of Machines instead of 'firing one of his weapons' which happens twice.

That doesn't mean he gets to replace both weapons when you are told you may replace firing one weapon. Getting to repeat the shooting sequence is completely irrelevant to what you are told in Master of Machines, which is that you replace firing one weapon. Replacing firing of each weapon is replacing firing of two weapons, not one weapon. You may not replace firing of two weapons. You may only replace firing of one weapon according to Master of Machines.

 doctortom wrote:


That doesn't mean he gets to replace both weapons when you are told you may replace firing one weapon. Getting to repeat the shooting sequence is completely irrelevant to what you are told in Master of Machines, which is that you replace firing one weapon. Replacing firing of each weapon is replacing firing of two weapons, not one weapon. You may not replace firing of two weapons. You may only replace firing of one weapon according to Master of Machines.

If you tell me the Shooting Sequence is not relevant then you are House Ruling.

The Shooting Sequence is entirely relevant since that is how models actually shoot per the BRB. What rules are you using if not the Shooting Sequence?

If you follow the Shooting Sequence you will find that 'firing one of his weapons' happens twice in the case of the Dominus who has two shooting weapons.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


That doesn't mean he gets to replace both weapons when you are told you may replace firing one weapon. Getting to repeat the shooting sequence is completely irrelevant to what you are told in Master of Machines, which is that you replace firing one weapon. Replacing firing of each weapon is replacing firing of two weapons, not one weapon. You may not replace firing of two weapons. You may only replace firing of one weapon according to Master of Machines.

If you tell me the Shooting Sequence is not relevant then you are House Ruling.

The Shooting Sequence is entirely relevant since that is how models actually shoot per the BRB. What rules are you using if not the Shooting Sequence?

If you follow the Shooting Sequence you will find that 'firing one of his weapons' happens twice in the case of the Dominus who has two shooting weapons.

No, it isn't house ruling. I say it is irrelevant because Master of Machines tells you that you may replace shooting ONE weapon with doing what the power does. That is all you need to know. The number of times you can shoot is irrelevant because you are told you replace shooting ONE weapon, not all weapons, each weapon, any combination of weapons or anything like that. The rule I am using is the Master of Machines rule, which tells you ALL you need to know about being able to use it, which is once (replacing firing one weapon). Trying to claim that you get to use it more than once is ignoring what the rule is actually telling you, that you replace firing ONE weapon.

 doctortom wrote:


No, it isn't house ruling. I say it is irrelevant because Master of Machines tells you that you may replace shooting ONE weapon with doing what the power does. That is all you need to know. The number of times you can shoot is irrelevant because you are told you replace shooting ONE weapon, not all weapons, each weapon, any combination of weapons or anything like that. The rule I am using is the Master of Machines rule, which tells you ALL you need to know about being able to use it, which is once (replacing firing one weapon). Trying to claim that you get to use it more than once is ignoring what the rule is actually telling you, that you replace firing ONE weapon.

Models are not allowed to shoot outside of the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

When models shoot it is in the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

Per the Shooting Sequence rules, the occasion of 'firing one of his weapons' happens twice for the Dominus; therefore Master of Machines can be used twice.

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


Interesting that you put in red type "select A weapon", not "select ONE weapon". Being told you may replace firing one weapon means exactly that, firing one weapon. It does not mean replacing two weapons with something else twice. They would have used "a weapon" or "for up to as many weapons as you can fire" or something along those lines if they had meant for you to apply it more than once in the shooting phase. One means one. One is not two or more.

Answer a simple question.

The Dominus has two shooting weapons. How many times in the Shooting Sequence is the Dominus 'firing one of his weapons'?

Once. After he fires one of his weapons he fires the other of his weapons if he fires again.

Being told you may replace firing one weapon does not mean getting to replace firing multiple weapons with that action multiple times. From a rules standpoint, you are not allowed to make a "replace one" into "replace each" or "replace many". You are not told that you can replace each of his shooting attacks, only one of his shooting attacks.


You keep wanting to make 1 = 2.

Now, your turn. According to the words in the rule, how many shooting attacks may you replace - one, all, as many as you want up to what you can fire? There's only one right answer in that selection.

Actually it depends on the types of Weapon being employed. If they are two of the same Weapon, then it changes things up a little bit. You shoot one Weapon twice if they are two different Weapons, but none if they are both the same Weapon.

But yeah, whether you go through the Shooting Sequence once or twice, doesn't really matter if the Master of Machines rule starts off with the condition of "Once per turn" like most of these repairing rules go.

 Charistoph wrote:


But yeah, whether you go through the Shooting Sequence once or twice, doesn't really matter if the Master of Machines rule starts off with the condition of "Once per turn" like most of these repairing rules go.

I assume that you have read the rule.

If not, let's go ahead and take a look at the actual rule.



There is no "once per turn" like in most of the repairing rules.

That's why Dominus can use Master of the Machines on both occasions in the Shooting Sequence when he is 'firing one of his weapons'.

col_impact wrote:

Models are not allowed to shoot outside of the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

Overwatch.

col_impact wrote:
When models shoot it is in the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

Per the Shooting Sequence rules, the occasion of 'firing one of his weapons' happens twice for the Dominus; therefore Master of Machines can be used twice.

You should go back and review other rules from GW and how they have dealt with them in FAQS when they say you may replace one of something with something else - notably buying relics. They say you may replace (for example) one weapon with a relic. They have clearly FAQ'd that one means one - you do not replace one weapon with a relic, then another weapon with another relic. This is an indication that they are following normal English language in relation to saying "one" and when they say you may replace firing one weapon, or instead of firing your weapon, you mayh get the benefits of Master of Machines, they mean exactly that - replacing shooting ONE weapon. There is no permission for getting the benefit twice.

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Models are not allowed to shoot outside of the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

Overwatch.

Am I the only one who actually reads the rules?

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:
When models shoot it is in the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

Per the Shooting Sequence rules, the occasion of 'firing one of his weapons' happens twice for the Dominus; therefore Master of Machines can be used twice.

You should go back and review other rules from GW and how they have dealt with them in FAQS when they say you may replace one of something with something else - notably buying relics. They say you may replace (for example) one weapon with a relic. They have clearly FAQ'd that one means one - you do not replace one weapon with a relic, then another weapon with another relic. This is an indication that they are following normal English language in relation to saying "one" and when they say you may replace firing one weapon, or instead of firing your weapon, you mayh get the benefits of Master of Machines, they mean exactly that - replacing shooting ONE weapon. There is no permission for getting the benefit twice.

I have shown you the rules for the Shooting Sequence which indicate that the Dominus will be 'firing one of his weapons' on two separate iterations of the Shooting Sequence and therefore will be able to activate the Master of Machines rule twice.

It has already been pointed out that the Master of Machines rule lacks the "once per shooting phase" that you are wont to read into the rule.

Following normal English means not reading into the rule. If you read into the rule then your argument is invalid.

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Models are not allowed to shoot outside of the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

Overwatch.

Bad example. Overwatch uses the Shooting Sequence rules.

Can someone reliable quote the Master of Machines rule?

 Charistoph wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Models are not allowed to shoot outside of the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

Overwatch.

Bad example. Overwatch uses the Shooting Sequence rules.

Can someone reliable quote the Master of Machines rule?

Master of Machines



Now compare that rule with the Space Marine rule . . .

Blessing of the Omnissiah:

The RAW difference is one requires you give up firing your weapons, the other requires you only give up firing one weapon and can heal wounds of certain factions.

Neither has permission to be used multiple times per turn, phase, or sequence.

blaktoof wrote:
The RAW difference is one requires you give up firing your weapons, the other requires you only give up firing one weapon and can heal wounds of certain factions.

Neither has permission to be used multiple times per turn, phase, or sequence.

If you follow the Shooting Sequence rule (which you must), the Dominus has the occasion twice to 'fire one of his weapons'; therefore, the Dominus can use Master of Machines twice.

Master of machines does not use step 3, you do not select the macrostubber and then state that you are opting not to fire the macro stubber in order to make an attempt to repair.

In fact, master of machines is in your shooting phase; you do not even do it within the shooting sequence. You are free to start your shooting phase, fire with a breacher unit, activate master of the machines with your dominus, fire with your kastelan maniple, then fire the dominus' volkite blaster.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Master of machines does not use step 3, you do not select the macrostubber and then state that you are opting not to fire the macro stubber in order to make an attempt to repair.

In fact, master of machines is in your shooting phase; you do not even do it within the shooting sequence. You are free to start your shooting phase, fire with a breacher unit, activate master of the machines with your dominus, fire with your kastelan maniple, then fire the dominus' volkite blaster.

Incorrect. You have to use the Master of Machines rule "instead of firing one of his weapons". That would occur on each of the two iterations of the Shooting Sequence that the Dominus participates in.

Otherwise you are not adhering to what "instead" means. Instead means "in place of".

First of all: you are trying to enforce your definition of "instead of" while completely ignoring the definition of "one".

Second: no. Instead of firing/shooting happens outside the shooting sequence. Or are you claiming that Fenrisian Wolves, ripper swarms, genestealers, hormagaunts, lone terminator librarians without a gun pruchased, or any other unit that has no ranged weapon cannot run? Step 1 requires the nominated unit to be equipped with a ranged weapon, running is instead of firing.

Running(or blessings of the omnissiah, or any other instead of firing/shooting special rule) would also require you to choose a target; if there is no target in sight you are stuck not being able to pass step 2 and can never choose to run instead of firing.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:
When models shoot it is in the context of the Shooting Sequence rules.

Per the Shooting Sequence rules, the occasion of 'firing one of his weapons' happens twice for the Dominus; therefore Master of Machines can be used twice.

You should go back and review other rules from GW and how they have dealt with them in FAQS when they say you may replace one of something with something else - notably buying relics. They say you may replace (for example) one weapon with a relic. They have clearly FAQ'd that one means one - you do not replace one weapon with a relic, then another weapon with another relic. This is an indication that they are following normal English language in relation to saying "one" and when they say you may replace firing one weapon, or instead of firing your weapon, you mayh get the benefits of Master of Machines, they mean exactly that - replacing shooting ONE weapon. There is no permission for getting the benefit twice.

I have shown you the rules for the Shooting Sequence which indicate that the Dominus will be 'firing one of his weapons' on two separate iterations of the Shooting Sequence and therefore will be able to activate the Master of Machines rule twice.

It has already been pointed out that the Master of Machines rule lacks the "once per shooting phase" that you are wont to read into the rule.

Following normal English means not reading into the rule. If you read into the rule then your argument is invalid.

Kommissar Kel brings up valid points. You are outside the shooting sequence when you are using Master of Machines. That means that your entire argument base on the shooting sequence in invalidated; I had already pointed out that it's irrelevant since if does NOT affect the Mast of Machines rule (as it done outside the shooting sequence) and you have permission to only use Master of Machines once, instead of firing one weapon.

You are trying to enforce your version of "instead" while completely ignoring the definition of "one". You have completely ignored what I pointed out here, that in other situations where GW has said "one", they mean "one", not "many". My comparison here is completely valid. In both cases, you are replacing one thing for another thing (using Master of Machines "instead of" firing one weapon means you are replacing one weapon with using Master of Machines). In the case of relics, you are replacing one item with a something else (a relic). In the case of Master of Machines you are replacing one action (firing one ranged weapon) with something else (using Master of Machines). GW has made it perfectly clear that, even if you have multiple weapons eligible to trade for relics, when they say you trade one weapon for a relic, this means only one; you do not get to trade multiple weapons for multiple relics. GW's use here is the same; using Master of Machines instead of firing one ranged weapon is done only once no matter how many times you can shoot, because - like with their use of "one" in other situations - you may only do it once. GW's usage of "one" also invalidates your trying to use the shooting sequence to justify turning one into more than one. Your citing "normal English" to try to help you doesn't cut it when I have been able to show counterexamples of how GW uses "one" in their rules language, which is what you need to adhere to. Now, please don't ignore this point again like you did in your past response, which made no effort to try to deal with this.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
First of all: you are trying to enforce your definition of "instead of" while completely ignoring the definition of "one".

Second: no. Instead of firing/shooting happens outside the shooting sequence. Or are you claiming that Fenrisian Wolves, ripper swarms, genestealers, hormagaunts, lone terminator librarians without a gun pruchased, or any other unit that has no ranged weapon cannot run? Step 1 requires the nominated unit to be equipped with a ranged weapon, running is instead of firing.

Running(or blessings of the omnissiah, or any other instead of firing/shooting special rule) would also require you to choose a target; if there is no target in sight you are stuck not being able to pass step 2 and can never choose to run instead of firing.

You have made a straw man by not attending to the language used by the rules.

I agree that 'instead of firing' happens outside the shooting sequence. Units can choose to run instead of firing.

However, 'instead of firing one of his weapons' can only happen in the context of one of the iterations of the shooting sequence as it is a model level action.

If an individual model that is part of a unit wants to choose to fire one of his shooting weapons but not the other then he must do so in the shooting sequence (even if it's a one model unit).



If you feel otherwise, it is up to you to point out when and where the Dominus is allowed in the rules to 'fire one of his weapons' if not in the context of the Shooting Sequence. And remember to not confuse unit level actions with model level actions.


Also, I am using "instead" in the same way the BRB and the dictionary do. How are you defining "instead" if not "in place of, in lieu of, as a substitute to"?

I am genuinely curious how you would define "instead". You claim somehow that the definition I use is my version of "instead" when it is actually the English language version of "instead".

Models may choose not to fire individual weapons that they are equipped with after the unit has chosen to fire that weapon.

You do not start with selecting the dominus(or the unit he has joined), pick a target for that unit, choose the macrostubber, then choose not to fire the macrostubber in order to attempt repairs.

You simply have the dominus attempt repairs instead of firing one of his weapons, at any point in the shooting phase after that(or before if he had already fired one of his weapons, or even while firing one of his weapons) he/his unit goes through the shooting sequence.

Although this is arguing when, exactly, during the shooting phase that you are attempting to repair instead of firing one weapon. If it is your shooting phase and you are attempting repairs instead of firing more than one weapon; you are breaking the rules.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You simply have the dominus attempt repairs instead of firing one of his weapons

When exactly does this happen? The rules are precise and you keep answering vaguely.

When exactly does "firing one of his weapons" occur?

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You simply have the dominus attempt repairs instead of firing one of his weapons

When exactly does this happen? The rules are precise and you keep answering vaguely.

When exactly does "firing one of his weapons" occur?

Use of Master of Machines happens at any time during the shooting phase, as he said. That's not vague, you just don't like the answer. You do not have to be in the shooting sequence to use Master of Machines, just as you do not have to be in the shooting sequence to Run instead of firing.

Apparently you feel that it has to be only during the shooting sequence. Going by that, does that mean you're not allowed to use Master of Machines if there's nothing available to shoot? Because that's a consequence of what you are saying. We all know that isn't correct, however - you can use Master of Machines even if you can't shoot at something, just like models with no ranged weapons can Run.

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You simply have the dominus attempt repairs instead of firing one of his weapons

When exactly does this happen? The rules are precise and you keep answering vaguely.

When exactly does "firing one of his weapons" occur?

Use of Master of Machines happens at any time during the shooting phase, as he said. That's not vague, you just don't like the answer.

I asked when exactly does "firing one of his weapons" occur. That happens at a precise time in the Shooting Phase. Two times in the Shooting Phase for the Dominus actually. Point it out.

 doctortom wrote:

Apparently you feel that it has to be only during the shooting sequence. Going by that, does that mean you're not allowed to use Master of Machines if there's nothing available to shoot? Because that's a consequence of what you are saying. We all know that isn't correct, however - you can use Master of Machines even if you can't shoot at something, just like models with no ranged weapons can Run.

Keep your language straight. Units can run instead of firing. The whole unit chooses to opt out of the shooting sequence to run. That is not the case here. Do not confuse models with units.

Until you adhere to a precise use of language your argument is invalid.

col_impact wrote:

Until you adhere to a precise use of language your argument is invalid.

Okay, how about we stick with GW's "precise use of language"? This will be the third time I've mentioned how they have used "replace one..." or Instead of firing one.."" or something mentioning one. Go back to my posts that point out the similarities between getting to replace only one relic by trading a weapon even if you have more than one weapon to trade, and only getting to use Master of Machines even if you have more than one weapon available to fire. It is certainly not an invalid argument, and so far you keep ignoring it.

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Until you adhere to a precise use of language your argument is invalid.

Okay, how about we stick with GW's "precise use of language"? This will be the third time I've mentioned how they have used "replace one..." or Instead of firing one.."" or something mentioning one. Go back to my posts that point out the similarities between getting to replace only one relic by trading a weapon even if you have more than one weapon to trade, and only getting to use Master of Machines even if you have more than one weapon available to fire. It is certainly not an invalid argument, and so far you keep ignoring it.

You have to follow the Shooting Sequence. When you do, there will be precisely 2 fully legal occasions where the Dominus will be 'firing one of his weapons'; therefore, the Dominus can use Master of Machines two times.

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You simply have the dominus attempt repairs instead of firing one of his weapons

When exactly does this happen? The rules are precise and you keep answering vaguely.

When exactly does "firing one of his weapons" occur?

At the exact same time that a rhino that has lost its stormbolter pops smoke or moves flat out.

At the exact same time a unit of fenrisian wolves or genestealers runs.

Both of the above are done in the shooting phase instead of firing.

Neither of the above are eligible units for step 1.

These running, or smoke launching, or flat-out moving units do so whenever the player wants them to during the shooting phase but outside of the shooting sequence(since it is done instead of shooting or firing).

Again though, you are told by master of machines that in your shooting phase(not the model's shooting phase as in the case of some other rules which we can only infer to mean during the shooting sequence) you may attempt repairs instead of firing ONE weapon. If it is your shooting phase it does not matter how many weapons you do not fire the attempt to repair only occurs instead of one of them.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Until you adhere to a precise use of language your argument is invalid.

Okay, how about we stick with GW's "precise use of language"? This will be the third time I've mentioned how they have used "replace one..." or Instead of firing one.."" or something mentioning one. Go back to my posts that point out the similarities between getting to replace only one relic by trading a weapon even if you have more than one weapon to trade, and only getting to use Master of Machines even if you have more than one weapon available to fire. It is certainly not an invalid argument, and so far you keep ignoring it.

You have to follow the Shooting Sequence. When you do, there will be precisely 2 fully legal occasions where the Dominus will be 'firing one of his weapons'; therefore, the Dominus can use Master of Machines two times.

Thank you for ignoring what I said - you have not addressed the issue at all about GW's use of the language and when they say something like "instead of firing one weapon" or "trade one weapon in to purchase a Relic." It also ignores that by what you say Master of Machines can not be used if there is nothing to shoot at - something that we know is patently false because units that can not shoot can still run (so I said "model" in the last post - you didn't feel like addressing the point behind it so chose to ignore it.). You also ignore that Master of Machines is no more specific than in your shooting phase - it does not state that it occurs as part of the shooting eequence. This is something you are trying to read into it when it's not applicable. By ignoring all these things, I can only take this to mean that you have no rebuttal for the argument that GW's use of "firing one weapon" is in line with "trading one weapon" for relics, and are merely trying to ignore it so that you don't have to face up to that completely disproves your claims.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
You simply have the dominus attempt repairs instead of firing one of his weapons

When exactly does this happen? The rules are precise and you keep answering vaguely.

When exactly does "firing one of his weapons" occur?

At the exact same time that a rhino that has lost its stormbolter pops smoke or moves flat out.

At the exact same time a unit of fenrisian wolves or genestealers runs.

Both of the above are done in the shooting phase instead of firing.

Neither of the above are eligible units for step 1.

These running, or smoke launching, or flat-out moving units do so whenever the player wants them to during the shooting phase but outside of the shooting sequence(since it is done instead of shooting or firing).

Again though, you are told by master of machines that in your shooting phase(not the model's shooting phase as in the case of some other rules which we can only infer to mean during the shooting sequence) you may attempt repairs instead of firing ONE weapon. If it is your shooting phase it does not matter how many weapons you do not fire the attempt to repair only occurs instead of one of them.

You are confusing UNIT actions with MODEL actions.

Running instead of firing is a UNIT action.

"Firing one of his weapons" can only occur in the Shooting Sequence by a MODEL.

If you think otherwise, point to the page and paragraph where a MODEL can fire one of his weapons outside of the Shooting Sequence.

Uh, col_impact, the Shooting sequence is a sequence to follow for the UNIT action of shooting ranged weapons at a target. You're trying to make a strawman argument here.

Oh, and if I recall correctly the Tech-priest 'Dominus is a unit as well as a model.

 doctortom wrote:


Thank you for ignoring what I said - you have not addressed the issue at all about GW's use of the language and when they say something like "instead of firing one weapon" or "trade one weapon in to purchase a Relic." It also ignores that by what you say Master of Machines can not be used if there is nothing to shoot at - something that we know is patently false because units that can not shoot can still run (so I said "model" in the last post - you didn't feel like addressing the point behind it so chose to ignore it.). You also ignore that Master of Machines is no more specific than in your shooting phase - it does not state that it occurs as part of the shooting eequence. This is something you are trying to read into it when it's not applicable. By ignoring all these things, I can only take this to mean that you have no rebuttal for the argument that GW's use of "firing one weapon" is in line with "trading one weapon" for relics, and are merely trying to ignore it so that you don't have to face up to that completely disproves your claims.

I have not ignored your argument and have adhered to the precise meaning of "one" as it actually occurs in the rules at stake.

I have demonstrated that

You have to follow the Shooting Sequence. When you do, there will be precisely 2 FULLY LEGAL OCCASIONS where the Dominus will be 'firing one of his weapons'; therefore, the Dominus can use Master of Machines two times.



You, on the other hand, have failed to show how a model can "fire one of his weapons" outside of the Shooting Sequence. You have also ignored that "firing one of his weapons" happens twice in the Shooting Sequence.

You can't just hand-wave away the Shooting Sequence. That's where models are given permission to fire their weapons.

If you flat-out ignore rules in the BRB your argument is invalid.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
Uh, col_impact, the Shooting sequence is a sequence to follow for the UNIT action of shooting ranged weapons at a target. You're trying to make a strawman argument here.

Oh, and if I recall correctly the Tech-priest 'Dominus is a unit as well as a model.

Sigh.

Units opt to participate in the Shooting Sequence altogether or not. Once a unit is participating in the Shooting Sequence, the sequence marches through all the weapons and all the models to resolve the firing of each weapon by each model.


If the Dominus is acting as a unit by himself, the Dominus unit opts to participate in the Shooting Sequence or not. If the Dominus unit opts to fire, you then follow the Shooting Sequence rules to resolve the firing of all the weapons and all the models of the unit which is not too hard since there is 2 shooting weapons and one model involved.

The Dominus "firing one of his weapons" can only occur in the context of the Shooting Sequence. Sorry, but that's the rules.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:


Thank you for ignoring what I said - you have not addressed the issue at all about GW's use of the language and when they say something like "instead of firing one weapon" or "trade one weapon in to purchase a Relic." It also ignores that by what you say Master of Machines can not be used if there is nothing to shoot at - something that we know is patently false because units that can not shoot can still run (so I said "model" in the last post - you didn't feel like addressing the point behind it so chose to ignore it.). You also ignore that Master of Machines is no more specific than in your shooting phase - it does not state that it occurs as part of the shooting eequence. This is something you are trying to read into it when it's not applicable. By ignoring all these things, I can only take this to mean that you have no rebuttal for the argument that GW's use of "firing one weapon" is in line with "trading one weapon" for relics, and are merely trying to ignore it so that you don't have to face up to that completely disproves your claims.

I have not ignored your argument and have adhered to the precise meaning of "one" as it actually occurs in the rules at stake.

I have demonstrated that

You have to follow the Shooting Sequence. When you do, there will be precisely 2 FULLY LEGAL OCCASIONS where the Dominus will be 'firing one of his weapons'; therefore, the Dominus can use Master of Machines two times.



You, on the other hand, have failed to show how a model can "fire one of his weapons" outside of the Shooting Sequence. You have also ignored that "firing one of his weapons" happens twice in the Shooting Sequence.

You can't just hand-wave away the Shooting Sequence. That's where models are given permission to fire their weapons.

If you flat-out ignore rules in the BRB your argument is invalid.

This is a load of codswallop. You do NOT get to ignore how GW has used similar phrases elsewhere in the rulebook. YOU are the one ignoring rules in the BRBs and Codexes by ignoring these rules using similar phrases. This is all completely independent of when you fire a weapon, and you do NOT get to dismiss it on the basis of the shooting sequence. Deal with explaining away the similar usages in other areas of the rulebooks without bringing up the shooting sequence, as it is a more general issue there. By not dealing with it, you are tacitly admitting that you have no proper rebuttal for it.


But, let's talk about the shooting sequence. If you are given permission to do something else instead of firing one weapon, then you are NOT firing that one weapon, and therefor the shooting sequence does not need to be involved BECAUSE you are doing something INSTEAD of firing the weapon. Run can happen at any time in the shooting phase instead of firing weapons - it doesn't matter if it's a unit or model action, you don't enter the shooting sequence to do something instead of firing weapons. This means your invoking the shooting sequence is again a red herring, and disproved through a different method. Now that it's doubly disproved, deal with both issues; bringing up the shooting sequence does not give you an excuse to ignore these or claim they are all invalid (here we show your claim of invalidity is in itself invalid).