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 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Those aren't even remotely comparable. DA bikes can't jink in close combat so are just as durable as regular bikes against half the damage in the game. 5ed Transports actually were unkillable because you had to get a lucky 6+ to get an explode to kill it and if you didn't they didn't care because they were just being transports. And this was against all forms of damage, not just shooting like it is for DA bikes.

That still makes DA virtually unkillable against shooty armies.

That's not cool.

I dont know how many times i have said it, but template and ignore cover weapons shred bikes, yet you seem to never want to acknowledge this points

We are arguing with the person that thinks Orbital Bombardment from Chapter Masters is an issue.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We are arguing with the person that thinks Orbital Bombardment from Chapter Masters is an issue.

You mean the thing that ends up scattering off the table half the time, or hitting you a fourth of the time?

I warned everyone about four pages back.

 Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:You've been told before why the rerollable jinking bikes aren't actually broken (because when they jink they don't do any damage since they are snap firing and have short range).

That didn't stop people from crying "OP" over transports in 5th edition.

Different situation. A Transport wasn't a threat. The unit it was transporting was. Seeing as Bikes become extremely lessened in shooting if they jink, they are not an issue. A transport with nothing in it isn't an issue.

If something is practically unkillable, it's OP. Period.

So, an immortal blob that cannot move, cannot be removed from the table, has no weaponry, cannot claim objectives, has no statline and costs 100 points is OP? Even though it actually contributes nothing to the game, but is unkillable?

'Kay.

I would amend your statement to "If a unit is undercosted in relation to it's abilities, it is overpowered." You can have glass hammers. You can have tanks (in the colloquial sense, not by game mechanics) that don't really fight back. You can have buffers. All of these are fine, so long as they are costed appropriately to their rules and possible combinations they create.

BS4 Overwatch (and overwatch in general) is easily mitigated with charging in bait units or using LoS blocking terrain to limit damage to a model or two.

It basically gives DA two shooting phases. That's not fair. End of story.

But you've just given them a better Overwatch than what they have right now.
And you complain about GW's broken rules...

My general critique here is:
1) Listen to people, and don't brush them off. You'll get further with your ideas.
2) The thread name is rather misleading. These aren't CORE changes. These are a handful of rules that may not even come into play, and in many cases, you actually make them more complex, adding to the rules bloat of 40k.

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:Again, Re-rolls are not a bad mechanic in and of itself. It's when it gets abused that is the problem. For example: 3x TL Lascannons? That's reasonable. 15x shots from 3x stationary Grac Cannons getting re-rolls because of Grav Amps? No thanks. It just needs to be toned down, not removed.

Rerolls are unnecessary at best and game-breaking at worst.

< Insert Maths >

The only time it matters:

1. When we are dealing with 2+ rerollables. And feth 2+ rerollables.
2. When using a weapon with the Gets Hot! special rule. And fact is, blast weapons with the Gets Hot! special rule don't get to reroll anyway. so why should non-blast weapons get it?

Re-rolls have been insanely helpful to me in a number of scenarios, my most recent example being when I took two wounds off of a hovering MC while firing only Snapshots with a Twin-Linked Lascannon on the top of a Razorback. Statistically speaking it doesn't make a huge difference when you consider just the numbers and averages, but it can make a big practical difference.

Traditio wrote:

If you could flesh this idea out properly, I could get behind this idea. Being a BT player: Not only would I like to see this idea fleshed out in great detail, but I'd like to see what you think this means for the opposite side (i.e. Denying the Witch)..

Spoiler:

Very simple:

Make the psychic test a basic leadership test. Specify in advance that each psyker may use x number of powers per shooting phase. Rework all psychic powers so that you are no better or worse off for using a psychic power than for using a shooting attack or running. Give a one page, codex specific list of psychic powers for each army. You then pick whichever psychic powers you want, up to the number of psychic powers that each psyker can know.

Naturally, some psykers would come with powers that they automatically know.

I suppose you could have slightly stronger psychic powers, assuming appropriate restrictions: "You must exhaust two chances to use a psychic power and pass two separate leadership tests to harness this power."

And then simply remove the deny the witch roll, except for model/unit specific cases.

Again, it would improve game balance and make the game go much faster.

I am definitely not opposed to the broad concept you've just laid out here, but I asked for a fleshed out idea, not a broad concept. Try again.

Traditio wrote:

Backspacehacker wrote:Ok, then in one post, write the rule, as if it was in the rule book. Go, nothing more nothing less.

You're not grasping the phrasing vs. practice distinction. Even if it takes me an entire page to explain it, the practice isn't necessarily more complicated.

We are all well aware of the phrasing vs practice distinction, but if it takes you a page to properly explain you rule (if not more), how is that rule any less complex than re-rolling? And then let's assume that people will eventually understand the rule as it is presented: Is it a rule worth having? As noted by a number of other posters: Your proposed changes with regards to re-rolls fails to consider the interaction re-rolls had with other rules, a prime example of this being that the elimination of re-rolls limits BS to 5.

In light of the above, do you know exactly how many other rules are affected by this change to re-rolls as well as exactly which rules they are? And how do you propose to fix them? Because I don't see solutions to those problems listed yet...

With the above in mind, your idea to remove re-rolls, replace it with a stat modifier, and then limit BS to 5 is a potentially an ill-conceived idea (definitely an ill-conceived idea in its current form) and also fails to deal with all the inherent problems created by the change. Point (5) about the Psykic Powers also suffers from the same problem: It is potentially (and likely is) and ill-conceived idea that undoubtedly will probably cause more problems than it solves and will most definitely cause more problems than you have accounted for (since you have apparently accounted for absolutely no consequences of these changes). The same could be said of the remaining three points, but I felt these two were the most prominent.


I would say that if you put some thought into these rules, you would consider the consequences and account for them, but you have failed to listen to the consequences for the better part of 6 pages and I don't see that as likely to change (especially given you posting history outside this thread as well as in it). With that in mind. I can comfortable say that I no longer support any of these changes. I find them to be poorly thought out, inconsiderate of the consequences, and - metaphorically speaking - "A band-aid over a stab wound."

 IllumiNini wrote:
"A band-aid over a stab wound."

A band-aid over a stab wound who's adhesive is made of tiny hooks that stab into the skin.

I will agree with OP that something does need to be done about powers.

Powers right now are a bloody mess. I wish we could just go back to 5th ed powers.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I will agree with OP that something does need to be done about powers.

Powers right now are a bloody mess. I wish we could just go back to 5th ed powers.

Jaws of the World Wolf... Lash of Submission...

Every generation has Powers that are borked up. The real challenge is to make a set that no one power is the default, but can be chosen between games to suit so randomness is not required. I do wish Witchfires had the mode counting as firing a weapon each time they were used for the next Phase, though.

 Lance845 wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
"A band-aid over a stab wound."

A band-aid over a stab wound who's adhesive is made of tiny hooks that stab into the skin.

Huh? Is there any other kind of band-aid? That's the only brand we have here in Commorragh.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I will agree with OP that something does need to be done about powers.

Powers right now are a bloody mess. I wish we could just go back to 5th ed powers.

Jaws of the World Wolf... Lash of Submission...

Every generation has Powers that are borked up. The real challenge is to make a set that no one power is the default, but can be chosen between games to suit so randomness is not required. I do wish Witchfires had the mode counting as firing a weapon each time they were used for the next Phase, though.

An excellent point. Thank you for temporarily taking off everyone's rose-tinted glasses there. ;D

I totally agree about witchfires. it always feels a bit odd when my psyker brings down a whirling maelstrom of psychic energy... and then also makes sure to crack off a shot with his pistol afterwards. I actually kind of like that this lets me shoot and then run away in the shooting phase, but it definitely feels unintentional.

For some units, mostly pink horrors, I really like the idea of just giving them a shooting attack that works in the shooting phase but also giving them a power or special rule that lets them use warp charges to buff that attack in the psychic phase. So instead of having the flickering fire power, maybe you could just increase the number of shots it fires by X per warp charge set aside during the psychic phase.

That is a really good idea!

So lets say for the sake of argument that the psychic phase got condensed into the shooting phase some how. Then...

"Each Witchfire and Nova power counts as a single weapon for the purpose of determining how many weapons the model can fire in the shooting phase.

If a infantry model can fire 1 weapon in the shooting phase it can attempt to manifest any benediction or malediction powers it knows. In addition it may fire a single weapon in the form of a piece of wargear or manifesting a witchfire or nova power.

 Lance845 wrote:
That is a really good idea!

So lets say for the sake of argument that the psychic phase got condensed into the shooting phase some how. Then...

"Each Witchfire and Nova power counts as a single weapon for the purpose of determining how many weapons the model can fire in the shooting phase.

If a infantry model can fire 1 weapon in the shooting phase it can attempt to manifest any benediction or malediction powers it knows. In addition it may fire a single weapon in the form of a piece of wargear or manifesting a witchfire or nova power.

Or "For each successful casting of a Witchfire power, the model gains the listed Weapon for use in the next Shooting Phase". The Weapon is the listed profile or Nova set (Novas could be better defined, as well, they are so sloppy and should fit a Weapon Profile).

You'd have to redo some of the Psychic Disciplines then as some (Looking at you Tzeentch, Change and Pyromancy) consist mostly or solely (pre-Curse of the Wulfen Change) of Witchfires.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You'd have to redo some of the Psychic Disciplines then as some (Looking at you Tzeentch, Change and Pyromancy) consist mostly or solely (pre-Curse of the Wulfen Change) of Witchfires.

Not necessarily. Infantry get to fire 1 of whichever power they have and must pick which power is best for their situation. MC can fire 2. Some special models might get to unload more (Lord of Change). Having multiple powers with different effects gives you options.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You'd have to redo some of the Psychic Disciplines then as some (Looking at you Tzeentch, Change and Pyromancy) consist mostly or solely (pre-Curse of the Wulfen Change) of Witchfires.

Not necessarily. Infantry get to fire 1 of whichever power they have and must pick which power is best for their situation. MC can fire 2. Some special models might get to unload more (Lord of Change). Having multiple powers with different effects gives you options.

And then there are the Psychic Pilots of Vehicles like the Blood Angels Librarian Dreadnought.

But either way, Psychic Powers are bound to be undergoing a revision by the very nature of a rules revision, especially one intended for balance.

Having been almost a week, I'm surprised that there hasn't been an attempt to twist the poll results into something they're not.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I will agree with OP that something does need to be done about powers.

Powers right now are a bloody mess. I wish we could just go back to 5th ed powers.

Jaws of the World Wolf... Lash of Submission...

Every generation has Powers that are borked up. The real challenge is to make a set that no one power is the default, but can be chosen between games to suit so randomness is not required.

Having a spectacular effect like Jaws of the World Wolf or Invisibility or Gate of Infinity is the point of taking a psyker, they give you a big game changing strategy. If all the powers are balanced so that all you get is curse of the machine spirit then the default power that everyone takes is just Shield Eternal on a captain, and they never take the psyker in the first place.

You can't do it, there will always be a default power that you want to get. What you should do is test powers as one use only, and then give a psyker access to the whole discipline for the game.

You say ok, you can choose biomancy, and you don't have to roll, you get all the powers. However if you try to cast a power that isn't the primaris more than once, it casts on 5+ instead of 4+.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I will agree with OP that something does need to be done about powers.

Powers right now are a bloody mess. I wish we could just go back to 5th ed powers.

Jaws of the World Wolf... Lash of Submission...

Every generation has Powers that are borked up. The real challenge is to make a set that no one power is the default, but can be chosen between games to suit so randomness is not required.

Having a spectacular effect like Jaws of the World Wolf or Invisibility or Gate of Infinity is the point of taking a psyker, they give you a big game changing strategy. If all the powers are balanced so that all you get is curse of the machine spirit then the default power that everyone takes is just Shield Eternal on a captain, and they never take the psyker in the first place.

You can't do it, there will always be a default power that you want to get. What you should do is test powers as one use only, and then give a psyker access to the whole discipline for the game.

You say ok, you can choose biomancy, and you don't have to roll, you get all the powers. However if you try to cast a power that isn't the primaris more than once, it casts on 5+ instead of 4+.

Then you missed the point of that post and to what it was responding to. The point was, that even when you could pick the powers and they were not "so messed up", both 4th and 5th Edition had some really abusive Powers. The only big difference between 5th Edition and 7th Edition is that there are a smaller proportion of "Grand Powers" that everyone wants because of the number of "lesser powers" has increased and you can't just decide to get them.

Part of the reason for the randomness of the Powers is so that no one is just taking the default most powerful power and ignoring the rest. If one wants to remove randomness from power selection, then powers need to be balanced so that they are at the same level.

Then we have the problem that four codices (if we combine AdMech, IK, and Skitarii in one), and a small portion of a fifth (Black Templars), have zero access to these Psychic Powers on their own and have little direct counter to them that isn't also reflected in every other army.

I like the way psychic powers work now, both in selection and casting. It puts a bit of depth into that part of the game beyond, roll your LD. The only real gripe I have is that there is no effective way to deal with blessings beyond a culexus asssasin.

Blessings are the most powerful set of powers. Endurance, Veil of time, Iron Arm, INVISIBILITY etc.,. at they're also the hardest to stop

I've always been a proponent of giving psykers tiered ranges at which they can deny blessings with bonuses, as well as giving benefits for psychic hood and adamantium will.

You can still Deny Blessings, it is just VERY difficult. It would be nice if other Psykers on the board could help Deny Blessings more effectively as a default.

Warhammer Fantasy could get away with such things because everyone had access to Wizards except the Dwarfs (obviously some were better than others). And the Dwarfs had some powerful tools available to help shut down the Magic Phase for their opponent. In some editions, it just wasn't worth even bringing a Wizard against a prepared Dwarf army.

Now, the only help Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Mechanicum, and Black Templars have is to bring in an Assassin Ally (though the Mechanicum may have changed from some of the recent questions on YMDC), Ally in another army's Witch, or overwhelm the Psyker in Attacks to kill them off.

To be fair, though, as bad as Invisibility is (and it is VERY bad), it isn't nearly as over the top as some of the 8th Edition spells in Fantasy, where a failed Initiative or Strength Test would have the models removed from the board without even a chance at a Save, and these could affect most, if not all, of a 40 man block.

Removing Relentless would make Sergeant Harker a regular IG vet sarge with a heavy bolter... who still can't take the 4+ armor doctrine. Even with relentless, he's still 55 points for heavy bolter. Think about *all* the toes you'd be stepping on

 Charistoph wrote:
You can still Deny Blessings, it is just VERY difficult. It would be nice if other Psykers on the board could help Deny Blessings more effectively as a default.

Warhammer Fantasy could get away with such things because everyone had access to Wizards except the Dwarfs (obviously some were better than others). And the Dwarfs had some powerful tools available to help shut down the Magic Phase for their opponent. In some editions, it just wasn't worth even bringing a Wizard against a prepared Dwarf army.

Now, the only help Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Mechanicum, and Black Templars have is to bring in an Assassin Ally (though the Mechanicum may have changed from some of the recent questions on YMDC), Ally in another army's Witch, or overwhelm the Psyker in Attacks to kill them off.

To be fair, though, as bad as Invisibility is (and it is VERY bad), it isn't nearly as over the top as some of the 8th Edition spells in Fantasy, where a failed Initiative or Strength Test would have the models removed from the board without even a chance at a Save, and these could affect most, if not all, of a 40 man block.

I hesitate to say it but Age of Sigmar actually took the right approach to counterspelling. Wizards can counterspell any spell cast within a certain distance of them, period, end of discussion.

The armies with no psykers problem is more annoying, but I think WHFB Dwarves had the right idea; they should have some kind of effects that generate Warp Charge that can be used for Denial only.