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Hi All,

I just wanted to pick everyone's brains about a new starter army for myself. I've played 40k quite a lot over 5th and 6th edition and appreciate a lot has changed since then. I regularly read reviews on codexes and certain units to see how good each army is but I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on what's a good all rounder army. The only real stipulations I have are as follows;

1. Not a Space Marine based army- I love the fluff and backstory to space marines but they seem to take up a large portion of Games Workshops portfolio and I want something a bit different.
2. Diverse- different types of units that are viable not just spam
3. Fun to paint- I guess this is down to me but I like to paint a variety of colours in one army to stop myself getting bored of painting
4. Good on the tabletop- I'm not looking for a WAAC army but I'd like a codex that can compete

I'd appreciate as much feedback as possible as I'd like to start playing again but as there's so many different source books now it's hard to know where to start!

Sounds like Eldar to me, so long as you can resist the spamming they have lots of units which can be given different paint jobs.

I suggest eldar too. avoid scattbikes and wraithknights.

go for an army with lots of different aspect warriors.

1 tick
2 tick. diverse. aspect warriors play very differently.
3 tick. each aspect are in their own colour.
4 tick. (most) aspects are not top tier WAAC, but they are not bad.

Go join the glorious rainbow hosts of the eldar. We have cookies. BTW, which area of spain are you playing? Won't it be Barcelona for any chance?

Or Daemons

I suggest chaos daemons.

There is 4 official colour schemes in the codex, one for each god, and absolutely no problem with throwing them to the wind and deciding to do your own thing.

Spam is not really our thing either unless you decide you want to. There is a diverse and interesting array of units to choose from, and the codex has remained fairly competitive in the face of all the changes since it's release in early sixth edition. There's also nothing WAAC about the codex, outside of a particular build or two.

Of course i speak out of personal preference, but the parts of our model range that are plastic and recently updated are really nice.

Depending on the new releases, they also ally fairly well with CSM and in fact CSM might do it for you as well as a new army. Just don't expect to win tournaments with them unless this magnus release heralds a whole lot of changes.

I'll put a quick word in for Tau.

1. Tau are not Space Marines.

2. The Tau are capable of fielding 3 to 4 different species (Tau, Kroot, Vespid in the main codex, and Humans through Forgeworld), and have units ranging from footslogging infantry (with arguably the best basic infantry guns in the game, and with HQ and support rules that can make them somewhat viable), to Armored Battlesuits (Crisis Suits are excellent, Broadsides are firepower incarnate, Stealth Suits... are good with a formation, Riptides and Ghostkeels are probably the best units in the codex) to Armored Tanks (Devilfish, Skyray, and Hammerheads - arguably weak in the current ruleset, but still decent vehicles, except maybe the Devilfish, compared to others) [Edit] to GIANT HONKIN' PACIFIC RIM GUNDAM SUPERSUITS (Stormsurge and Tau'nar).

The wide variety of decent formations available to the Tau can make almost any choice reasonably competitive without forcing a player to spam units, though spamming the best formations remains a powerful option.

3. Generally a Tau Cadre will be painted under the same painting scheme, but you need not collect solely a single Cadre - personally, I'm painting my models as two separate Cadres, one with Farsight Enclave-esque colors and the other as Tau Empire forces from a yet-unnamed Sept.

Combine that with the Kroot and Vespid Auxiliaries, which have fairly open-ended painting possibilities (One becomes what it eats, so has a wide potential ranges of colors, and the other is insectoid, which opens up a lot of potential color ranges that would still suit the fluff).

4. Tau are generally considered as either in the low range of the highest tier or the high range of the next highest tier. They don't seem to dominate tournaments, but they are fairly widely regarded as reasonably competitive.

Lord Kragan wrote:
Go join the glorious rainbow hosts of the eldar. We have cookies. BTW, which area of spain are you playing? Won't it be Barcelona for any chance?

I'm currently based in Valencia as I'm travelling for work.

Just from checking Eldars product range it does seem quite good colour scheme wise. Lots of pastel colours.

Tau also look good but from what I hear they are quite over powered with Riptides and ignoring cover etc of is that a past edition of their codex? Dark Eldar look pretty nifty although their range is a bit more limited than Eldar. Are they worth looking at all?

Vulkan18th wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Go join the glorious rainbow hosts of the eldar. We have cookies. BTW, which area of spain are you playing? Won't it be Barcelona for any chance?

I'm currently based in Valencia as I'm travelling for work.

Just from checking Eldars product range it does seem quite good colour scheme wise. Lots of pastel colours.

Tau also look good but from what I hear they are quite over powered with Riptides and ignoring cover etc of is that a past edition of their codex? Dark Eldar look pretty nifty although their range is a bit more limited than Eldar. Are they worth looking at all?

Eldar is top dog when it comes to power level of armies, so if you feel put off that Tau are 'overpowered' then you probably wouldn't want to go near Eldar.

Dark Eldar on the other hand are bit on the bottom end but certainly not unplayable.

Many of the dark eldar models are newer and nicer than the eldar. the eldar aspect warrior models are rather old.

Tau are less powerful than eldar. the over-powered options are known, and can be avoided.

Vulkan18th wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Go join the glorious rainbow hosts of the eldar. We have cookies. BTW, which area of spain are you playing? Won't it be Barcelona for any chance?

I'm currently based in Valencia as I'm travelling for work.

Just from checking Eldars product range it does seem quite good colour scheme wise. Lots of pastel colours.

Tau also look good but from what I hear they are quite over powered with Riptides and ignoring cover etc of is that a past edition of their codex? Dark Eldar look pretty nifty although their range is a bit more limited than Eldar. Are they worth looking at all?

Riptides are undercosted. It will be up to you to avoid using them (or too many of them) to prevent being a WAAC player. The general gist I seem to get is that a Riptide per 750 points (rounded down, i.e. no Riptides below 750 points) is about the limit to prevent abusing its undercosted nature. The 3-Riptide Formation, aka the Riptide Wing, is particularly egregious and should be avoided if you want to stay away from WAAC listbuilding (edit: outside of Apocalypse)

Ignoring cover and increasing ballistic skill are powerful tools, but I'd argue not significantly overpowered in the current meta (again, they're either barely in the upper class or in the upper-middle class in overall power). The Tau are notably weak in the Assault and Psychic phases of the game.

Almost all Markerlight sources (the way a Tau player can get near-ubiquitous Ignores Cover) are either extremely inefficient on a point-per-ML-hit basis or are very weak on the defense (and consequently are either unreliable at providing the right units Ignore Cover at the right times, or are easily removed from the table).



Haven't played Dark Eldar recently, but they've probably got the most diverse set of species you could paint up, with resultingly diverse color options.

You'd have to actively try to make Eldar "mid-teir". Even taking casually apparent decent unit choices will result in an army notably more powerful than any one else's sub-completely-optimal builds.

In other words, you can accidentally make an "OP" Eldar army simply by playing a fluffy build.

Saim-Hann Windriders? Powerful. Iyanden Wraith-Heavy? Powerful. Beil-Tan Aspect Heavy? More powerful than most high-end builds from other codices, but "not Scat-Bikes". Even heavy use of Dire Avengers will be frightening for anything non-vehicle on foot.


Tau's powerful, but their models can be distinctly different shapes, although they tend towards uniform colour schemes, and their "xenos" components tend to be poor value compared to everything else in the codex.


I'm not fond of Daemons, personally, and while you can mix and match Gods in an army, if you don't you'll have a blandly coloured army just like Marines. [I like marines, 'cause they're easy to paint. ]

Ah that's a shame if that's the case with Eldar. If they are that powerful how can other codexes even beat them? Doesn't put me off collecting them as I'd try and avoid certain units as I'm after more of an aspect host army with lots of different colours.

Still not turned off of the idea of Dark Eldar. The more I look at their models and Kabals makes me think about collecting them. Will have to do some research about their builds and see if I can find some battle reports.

I love Space Marines but cannot bring myself to paint a battle company of them, all hard lines and same colours. I have an almost paternal love for Salamanders and Crimson Fists

1d4chan has tactica pages for every army. You cannot take everything they say as gospel truth but they are entertaining to read and tend to point you in the right direction. Give them a read through and then verify anything you read there with battle reports and posts on the forums.

If you do lean in towards Eldar, Ulthwe-themed armies can be a very strange difference to play - lots of guardians (in plastic), storm guardians (strange variety of gun options), and Psykers (poor variety in model design, and stick to infantry if you don't want to be labelled cheesy). I mean, people will look at you sideways for the number of psykers Ulthwe normally fields, but spread them out (one in each guardian squad) and it is a bit less "wtf why?" inducing.

Otherwise, your 4 points above pretty much clearly scream CWE (well besides the desire to remain not cheesy). If you want to play with some other fluff - take a look at Corsairs. They can be an interesting mix of both DE and CWE feel. Most people kitbash them (since the FW upgrade makes them stupid expensive and the look is not particularly inspired), but you can easily have multiple Corsair Coteries in different colors with different specialties to add even more color to Eldar.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
2. The Tau are capable of fielding 3 to 4 different species (Tau, Kroot, Vespid in the main codex, and Humans through Forgeworld), and have units ranging from footslogging infantry (with arguably the best basic infantry guns in the game, and with HQ and support rules that can make them somewhat viable), to Armored Battlesuits (Crisis Suits are excellent, Broadsides are firepower incarnate, Stealth Suits... are good with a formation, Riptides and Ghostkeels are probably the best units in the codex) to Armored Tanks (Devilfish, Skyray, and Hammerheads - arguably weak in the current ruleset, but still decent vehicles, except maybe the Devilfish, compared to others) [Edit] to GIANT HONKIN' PACIFIC RIM GUNDAM SUPERSUITS (Stormsurge and Tau'nar).

That got me a lil excited.... but looked on the forgeworld site... where are the tau human auxiliaries you speak of?

Vulkan18th wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
Go join the glorious rainbow hosts of the eldar. We have cookies. BTW, which area of spain are you playing? Won't it be Barcelona for any chance?

I'm currently based in Valencia as I'm travelling for work.

Just from checking Eldars product range it does seem quite good colour scheme wise. Lots of pastel colours.

Tau also look good but from what I hear they are quite over powered with Riptides and ignoring cover etc of is that a past edition of their codex? Dark Eldar look pretty nifty although their range is a bit more limited than Eldar. Are they worth looking at all?

NO

Right now Dark Eldar have THE worst codex in the current meta. They were a glass cannon before but now they are a papier mache water-gun. You need a lot of planning to win against non-competitive lists of the better armies.

@Lord Kagan, calm down. They aren't *the* unarguably worst codex. DE have a few valid army builds that are supposed to be decently fun to play - Freakshow is supposed to be amusing and kind of functional.

Don't get me wrong, I do not play DE, so the exact amount of 40k hard mode that they are is a little beyond my ability to judge. Still, their models are pretty, their models are mostly plastic, they have a very distinct aesthetic style, and they have a distinct playstyle. But they garner almost no love from the GW development team.

Overall, if you like them and CWE, do mainly CWE (or Corsairs you can use models from both ranges) with DE allies - the open-topped transports are badass for assaulting out of.

DE are brutally difficult to start with; they aren't unquestionably the worst Codex in the game (GK and Orks can both challenge that spot), but I don't recommend trying to start with them. They do work quite well as allies and enable a lot of fun/interesting strategies that wouldn't otherwise work; Harlequins and most Aspects appreciate Raiders, and DE appreciate psychic buffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
2. The Tau are capable of fielding 3 to 4 different species (Tau, Kroot, Vespid in the main codex, and Humans through Forgeworld), and have units ranging from footslogging infantry (with arguably the best basic infantry guns in the game, and with HQ and support rules that can make them somewhat viable), to Armored Battlesuits (Crisis Suits are excellent, Broadsides are firepower incarnate, Stealth Suits... are good with a formation, Riptides and Ghostkeels are probably the best units in the codex) to Armored Tanks (Devilfish, Skyray, and Hammerheads - arguably weak in the current ruleset, but still decent vehicles, except maybe the Devilfish, compared to others) [Edit] to GIANT HONKIN' PACIFIC RIM GUNDAM SUPERSUITS (Stormsurge and Tau'nar).

That got me a lil excited.... but looked on the forgeworld site... where are the tau human auxiliaries you speak of?

No official models. They've got a single unit entry in IA3 that's technically only allowed if you're playing the campaign in the book; they're 4ppm Guardsmen that all Imperial units Hate and that can't get any upgrade weapons (except for a pulse rifle on the squad leader). They're a cool idea but don't really help in practice.

Eh, if you go the Haemy Covens route, DEldar can be reasonably simple. One or two big tough units that eat things in melee, and some firesupport from the base DEldar isn't too complicated, unless you're playing at high levels, at which point it gets rather difficult.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
DE are brutally difficult to start with; they aren't unquestionably the worst Codex in the game (GK and Orks can both challenge that spot), but I don't recommend trying to start with them. They do work quite well as allies and enable a lot of fun/interesting strategies that wouldn't otherwise work; Harlequins and most Aspects appreciate Raiders, and DE appreciate psychic buffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
2. The Tau are capable of fielding 3 to 4 different species (Tau, Kroot, Vespid in the main codex, and Humans through Forgeworld), and have units ranging from footslogging infantry (with arguably the best basic infantry guns in the game, and with HQ and support rules that can make them somewhat viable), to Armored Battlesuits (Crisis Suits are excellent, Broadsides are firepower incarnate, Stealth Suits... are good with a formation, Riptides and Ghostkeels are probably the best units in the codex) to Armored Tanks (Devilfish, Skyray, and Hammerheads - arguably weak in the current ruleset, but still decent vehicles, except maybe the Devilfish, compared to others) [Edit] to GIANT HONKIN' PACIFIC RIM GUNDAM SUPERSUITS (Stormsurge and Tau'nar).

That got me a lil excited.... but looked on the forgeworld site... where are the tau human auxiliaries you speak of?

No official models. They've got a single unit entry in IA3 that's technically only allowed if you're playing the campaign in the book; they're 4ppm Guardsmen that all Imperial units Hate and that can't get any upgrade weapons (except for a pulse rifle on the squad leader). They're a cool idea but don't really help in practice.

Quite true. My apologies if I led you astray, Baldeagle91.

Vulkan18th wrote:
Ah that's a shame if that's the case with Eldar. If they are that powerful how can other codexes even beat them? Doesn't put me off collecting them as I'd try and avoid certain units as I'm after more of an aspect host army with lots of different colours.

Still not turned off of the idea of Dark Eldar. The more I look at their models and Kabals makes me think about collecting them. Will have to do some research about their builds and see if I can find some battle reports.

I love Space Marines but cannot bring myself to paint a battle company of them, all hard lines and same colours. I have an almost paternal love for Salamanders and Crimson Fists

You won't be making a wind rider or wraith army though, if you are avoiding spam. It sounds like you want to build your army from a range of different units, which play away from the things that makes elder OP.

If you aren't focusing on things people feel are too hard to counter (exclusively jet bikes or D weapons) then people will enjoy the game much more. I think it is much easier to avoid the things people dislike about elder than it is to avoid the things people dislike about tau.

Gene stealer cult might also be worth a look - it also has the advantage that you will be working it out with everyone else.

[quote/]

You won't be making a wind rider or wraith army though, if you are avoiding spam. It sounds like you want to build your army from a range of different units, which play away from the things that makes elder OP.

If you aren't focusing on things people feel are too hard to counter (exclusively jet bikes or D weapons) then people will enjoy the game much more. I think it is much easier to avoid the things people dislike about elder than it is to avoid the things people dislike about tau.

Vulkan18th wrote:

You won't be making a wind rider or wraith army though, if you are avoiding spam. It sounds like you want to build your army from a range of different units, which play away from the things that makes elder OP.

If you aren't focusing on things people feel are too hard to counter (exclusively jet bikes or D weapons) then people will enjoy the game much more. I think it is much easier to avoid the things people dislike about elder than it is to avoid the things people dislike about tau.

I'm struggling to choose Eldar when they do fit the bill for the sort of army I'm looking for as so many people seem to think it's hard to make a list that isn't OP. E.g. No Wind Riders when Saim-Hann is my favourite craft world.

It isn't as hard as most people think (leave the Wraithknight/Hemlock behind, cap Windriders at one upgrade weapon per three models, and limit Wraithguard, Swooping Hawks (in Maelstrom games, less so in normal missions), and Warp Spiders). My mechanized Aspect list that I've been playing since I started ten years ago is still alive, kicking, and losing games because I keep trying to play it like it's still 4th.

That said I don't think Saim-Hann is particularly well-represented in the book; Windriders are a mobile hide/snipe keep-away unit, the aggressive/savage image doesn't come across (they feel more like what you'd imagine Alaitoc jetbikes to be). I've been toying with the idea of running my jetbikes using the Corsairs rules, they're a lot less one-dimensional (three more gun options, and you can buy melee upgrade characters) and it may rescue the concept of a jetbike army from the "UNFUN CHEESE" bin since they don't just avoid the enemy all game throwing an absurd amount of S6 shooting downrange. (Also now that my WHFB Elvish cavalry army has been nuked I need a way to resurrect it)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vulkan18th wrote:
...If they are that powerful how can other codexes even beat them?...

This is a question you'll only find asked on the Internet. We're all very fond of "THE SKY IS FALLING" panics about how [X] is unbeatable and has ruined the game, in the real world you'll find people adapt and move on. Eldar players adjust to the strength of their meta just like everyone else, or they find a different playgroup/leave a playgroup. The Codex is powerful, but it's the players' choice to be *bleep*holes or not be *bleep*holes that matters in the end.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Vulkan18th wrote:

You won't be making a wind rider or wraith army though, if you are avoiding spam. It sounds like you want to build your army from a range of different units, which play away from the things that makes elder OP.

If you aren't focusing on things people feel are too hard to counter (exclusively jet bikes or D weapons) then people will enjoy the game much more. I think it is much easier to avoid the things people dislike about elder than it is to avoid the things people dislike about tau.

I'm struggling to choose Eldar when they do fit the bill for the sort of army I'm looking for as so many people seem to think it's hard to make a list that isn't OP. E.g. No Wind Riders when Saim-Hann is my favourite craft world.

It isn't as hard as most people think (leave the Wraithknight/Hemlock behind, cap Windriders at one upgrade weapon per three models, and limit Wraithguard, Swooping Hawks (in Maelstrom games, less so in normal missions), and Warp Spiders). My mechanized Aspect list that I've been playing since I started ten years ago is still alive, kicking, and losing games because I keep trying to play it like it's still 4th.

That said I don't think Saim-Hann is particularly well-represented in the book; Windriders are a mobile hide/snipe keep-away unit, the aggressive/savage image doesn't come across (they feel more like what you'd imagine Alaitoc jetbikes to be). I've been toying with the idea of running my jetbikes using the Corsairs rules, they're a lot less one-dimensional (three more gun options, and you can buy melee upgrade characters) and it may rescue the concept of a jetbike army from the "UNFUN CHEESE" bin since they don't just avoid the enemy all game throwing an absurd amount of S6 shooting downrange. (Also now that my WHFB Elvish cavalry army has been nuked I need a way to resurrect it)

You can play it on the god'ol age of sigmar. It is fine as long as you houserule a couple of silly things (such as shooting in melee and... well that's it, truth be told).

Lord Kragan wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You can play it on the god'ol age of sigmar. It is fine as long as you houserule a couple of silly things (such as shooting in melee and... well that's it, truth be told).

I've found the High Elves in Age of Sigmar completely drained of any personality.

I don't want to derail this thread into a long argument, so I won't reply to any further remarks on AoS. You may have the last word if you wish.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Vulkan18th wrote:
I'm struggling to choose Eldar when they do fit the bill for the sort of army I'm looking for as so many people seem to think it's hard to make a list that isn't OP. E.g. No Wind Riders when Saim-Hann is my favourite craft world.

It isn't as hard as most people think (leave the Wraithknight/Hemlock behind, cap Windriders at one upgrade weapon per three models, and limit Wraithguard, Swooping Hawks (in Maelstrom games, less so in normal missions), and Warp Spiders). My mechanized Aspect list that I've been playing since I started ten years ago is still alive, kicking, and losing games because I keep trying to play it like it's still 4th.

That said I don't think Saim-Hann is particularly well-represented in the book; Windriders are a mobile hide/snipe keep-away unit, the aggressive/savage image doesn't come across (they feel more like what you'd imagine Alaitoc jetbikes to be). I've been toying with the idea of running my jetbikes using the Corsairs rules, they're a lot less one-dimensional (three more gun options, and you can buy melee upgrade characters) and it may rescue the concept of a jetbike army from the "UNFUN CHEESE" bin since they don't just avoid the enemy all game throwing an absurd amount of S6 shooting downrange. (Also now that my WHFB Elvish cavalry army has been nuked I need a way to resurrect it)

Vulkan18th wrote:
...If they are that powerful how can other codexes even beat them?...

This is a question you'll only find asked on the Internet. We're all very fond of "THE SKY IS FALLING" panics about how [X] is unbeatable and has ruined the game, in the real world you'll find people adapt and move on. Eldar players adjust to the strength of their meta just like everyone else, or they find a different playgroup/leave a playgroup. The Codex is powerful, but it's the players' choice to be *bleep*holes or not be *bleep*holes that matters in the end.

Agreed. Even against some of the lower tier codexes (teaching a new person to play with Blood Angels), it's not that hard to make lists that get roflstomped - hence why I suggested Ulthwe-style armies (the army can and will be tabled by an even semi-competent opponent - new players included ).

And the army style you are tending towards - Biel-Tan (if you do decide to play it, welcome to the Council of Exarchs ) - elicits waaaay less weirdness from other people. Yeah, the few rare people exist that will be strange about you playing Eldar at all, but we just want to make sure you know going in. And, honestly, most of the games I play with a CAD Biel-tan style list are pretty close (maybe because i'm not great at the tactics as of yet or maybe because my dice hate me, but who knows ). And whatever happens with my aspects, it is easy to make some less than optimal decisions that make the game closer and more interesting.

That said, I may be a bit oblivious to people being wierd - they kind of do that around me all the time.

If the rainbow aspect host calls you, it's probably the least hated (beyond the forgotten Ulthwe) army style CWE can field. And honestly, most people will not be just because you play CWE because you like them. Be nice to them and they usually do not hold your army against you. And if they are going to be just because of your choice of army, they probably are not someone you really want to play anyway.

How are Rangers in the Eldar codex? Cause after hitting a bust with not liking the monotone paint job of Space Marines(got a box and hated assembling them) this thread has peaked my interest. I want an army that I can paint very colorful, and I also like units like Rangers and Scouts in my army. I also want an army that can play in many different play styles

Like most things in the eldar codex, pretty decent. Standard sniper guys, but from what I can guess, they are a little cheaper than would be expected and are stock - no purchasable upgrades. 12 points gets you a 36" sniper rifle, a pistol, shrouded, move through cover, infiltrate, fleet. Mesh armor 5+ but the shrouded gives them a good cover save.

Otherwise: Colorful army - check; lots of different play styles - check.

Ah, we also have a melee-centric "scout" unit - Striking Scorpions. 3+ armor, infiltrate, move through cover, stealth, pistol, sword, grenades, a special rule that gives them shrouded until they assault or shoot, and more. They are a bit more expensive at 17 points each, but they are pretty good. They often wreak havoc in the backfield in my experience.