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Hi there,

A friend of mine is fond of playing 500-pt games because they're nice and quick, his eldar vs. my CSM. He's played the game for several years longer than I have, and he has a fair few more units. I thought that playing with only 500 points was a pretty decent idea because he's limited in what he can use, but I'm finding that point-for-point the eldar just count for more than CSM; after our first game, which I won, he has adapted his army list specifically to counter mine, and has won every game since. I keep having to come up with new lists (including those which go against the fluff for my army) and I'm running out of ideas.

Yesterday, we were going to have a friendly game. We made lists, then told each other what we would be running, then I had to run out to do a quick errand. When I got back, he told me he had changed his list after I told him what I would be running (read: to better counter me). Fine then, fether, casual gloves are off... game on! We didn't wind up playing because I was pretty pissed that he opted to be so unsportsmanlike by changing things to better counter me, and I wanted time to come up with something new, but we will likely play tonight. So I am here to ask for some tips.

I like to make themed armies. How I'm building my CSM is to be the antithesis of the stereotypical army, but for these low-point games I'm increasingly sacrificing the fluff in order to gain any competitive edge. I know that CSM are still using an old, underpowered 6th edition codex while the Eldar are laughing from behind their really strong 7th edition codex, so I'm already playing against the odds. I don't mind losing, really, but I want it to at least be a fight.

My friend likes to stick his main force in a Wave Serpent with an ML3 psyker and have some long-range cheesenuggets in cover somewhere that gives them a vantage point over the map. When I get to choose deployment, I try to take the side that has the best cover like that, just to ensure he doesn't get it. I have also tried to put down objectives as close to his as possible to reduce the effectiveness of his battle focus. Last game I tried to really capitalise on that by running a squad of Khorne-marked CSM with boltguns, bolt pistols, and CCW, plus an IoW so that I would be sure to get into assault (his higher initiative and lower toughness vs each of my marines getting four attacks seemed like a pretty even fight when I was theoryhammering) but, in the most blatant ever "feth you" from the dice gods, the lucky son of a bitch wiped the whole damn unit with a single Eldritch Storm. (Side note: When I started collecting, I decided to build Thousand Sons armies because they were supposed to be the most powerful psykers in the galaxy, yet even the Tzeentch powers are bs compared to the Eldar runes [which is just sad when Tzeentch is supposed to be the fething god of magic]. /rant)

The only thing I've found that really helped me was summoning. In a low-point game, adding a unit of Pink Horrors counts for a lot more than in a high-point game. However, I don't run a Daemon Prince (nor could I in a 500-point game), and with Malefic powers periling on any doubles, my sorcerer is practically guaranteed to take a wound. Unless I roll Life Leech in Biomancy as one of the other powers, that means my 2-wound HQ becomes twice as easy to snipe as soon as I use this power, so I'm hesitant to do it.

What can you guys recommend? I'm at the point where I'm just getting frustrated and about to tell him we either play with a point limit that is fair for both our armies, or he picks a different army. I don't feel that I'm learning anything when every damn game ends the same way.

Stuff I have:
-2x ten-man CSM squads (one of which is equipped with CCW if I pay for the points)
-2x 10-man cultist squads (one with CCW, the other with autoguns)
-1x 5-man Chosen squad
-1x 5-man Havoc squad
-1x Chaos Lord
-1x Sorcerer Lord in terminator armour
-1x Helbrute
-1x Defiler (no way I can field this in a 500-point army...)
-Ahriman (also too expensive for a 500-point army)

Take Be'lakor

What missions do you play?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you tend to play objective based missions have you considered swamping the board with units? you can also position your markers in such a way to deny him from deploying his too close to his board edge.

Take msu daemonkin. Summon another 500 points during the game.

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

nareik wrote:What missions do you play?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you tend to play objective based missions have you considered swamping the board with units? you can also position your markers in such a way to deny him from deploying his too close to his board edge.

We roll random from the core rulebook. Most of the time it's objective-based, but last time it was "kill the xenos".

koooaei wrote:Take msu daemonkin. Summon another 500 points during the game.

Ideally, I'd like to work with the stuff I already have. Aside from the CSM models I listed above, I also have 10x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch.

The psychic phase is the only phase where you'll have any advantages. CSM are just too expensive to compete. Maybe try some form of armor to catch him off guard?

Run the new formations in traitors hate, so long as your opponent isn't running toughness 6+ wraiths you can handle any threat fairly well with respawning cultists. Here is a reccomended format for you. But your going to need more cultists (which are the cheapest model at GW so shouldnt be a problem)

Lost and the Damned formation -

10 cultists with autoguns and a heavy stubber
10 cultists with autoguns and a heavy stubber
10 cultists with CC weapons and a flamer
10 cultists with CC weapons and a flamer
1 Dark Apostle (no upgrades, if you lack a model use the chaos lord as a stand in)

Lords of the Black Crusade -

Sorcerer - ML3 + spell familiar

Auxillary-
Chaos Spawn

This should demolish your opponent in such a low point game due largely to the fact the majority of your army respawns on a 4+, the chaos spawn is cheap and effective and the sorcerer kicks ass with spell familiar. You will find range dosn't matter if you can respawn the bulk of your army from anywhere in the adjacent table edge.

When taking your sorcerer roll on the new CSM powers and you wont be disapointed, especially roll on sinistrum for a kick ass primaris and the ability to effortlessly flick away those eldar witchfires and make the enemy psykers head explode!

Also side note: khorn and tzeench CSM armies are absolute trash currently and don't let anyone tell you different. Slannesh noise marines have some of the best weapons in the codex (doom siren, blast master and slanneshi icon) and nurgle plague marines are just kick ass in general thanks to their high toughness. 10 noise marines with CC weps and an icon will absolutely butcher khorn beserkers with the same loadout and they are meant to be the go to unit for CC! As for tzeench he has worse magic powers than nurgle and your thousand sons are forced to roll on that crappy table.

My advice? Ask you friend to not be TFG. He's got Eldar (one of the best armies in the game) and he's list tailoring against you, a CSM (one of the worst armies in the game) player? That's... That's just mean. And unneeded.

Reavas wrote:Run the new formations in traitors hate, so long as your opponent isn't running toughness 6+ wraiths you can handle any threat fairly well with respawning cultists. Here is a reccomended format for you. But your going to need more cultists (which are the cheapest model at GW so shouldnt be a problem)

Lost and the Damned formation -

10 cultists with autoguns and a heavy stubber
10 cultists with autoguns and a heavy stubber
10 cultists with CC weapons and a flamer
10 cultists with CC weapons and a flamer
1 Dark Apostle (no upgrades, if you lack a model use the chaos lord as a stand in)

Lords of the Black Crusade -

Sorcerer - ML3 + spell familiar

Auxillary-
Chaos Spawn

This should demolish your opponent in such a low point game due largely to the fact the majority of your army respawns on a 4+, the chaos spawn is cheap and effective and the sorcerer kicks ass with spell familiar. You will find range dosn't matter if you can respawn the bulk of your army from anywhere in the adjacent table edge.

When taking your sorcerer roll on the new CSM powers and you wont be disapointed, especially roll on sinistrum for a kick ass primaris and the ability to effortlessly flick away those eldar witchfires and make the enemy psykers head explode!

Also side note: khorn and tzeench CSM armies are absolute trash currently and don't let anyone tell you different. Slannesh noise marines have some of the best weapons in the codex (doom siren, blast master and slanneshi icon) and nurgle plague marines are just kick ass in general thanks to their high toughness. 10 noise marines with CC weps and an icon will absolutely butcher khorn beserkers with the same loadout and they are meant to be the go to unit for CC! As for tzeench he has worse magic powers than nurgle and your thousand sons are forced to roll on that crappy table.

10/10 solid advice. Thank you! I hadn't even considered running a Black Crusade detachment at this low of a point limit; I hadn't thought it could be done until you suggested this.

JNAProductions wrote:My advice? Ask you friend to not be TFG. He's got Eldar (one of the best armies in the game) and he's list tailoring against you, a CSM (one of the worst armies in the game) player? That's... That's just mean. And unneeded.

Thank you. I'm glad to know that I'm not just getting butthurt for no reason.

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

Reavas wrote:Run the new formations in traitors hate, so long as your opponent isn't running toughness 6+ wraiths you can handle any threat fairly well with respawning cultists. Here is a reccomended format for you. But your going to need more cultists (which are the cheapest model at GW so shouldnt be a problem)

Lost and the Damned formation -

10 cultists with autoguns and a heavy stubber
10 cultists with autoguns and a heavy stubber
10 cultists with CC weapons and a flamer
10 cultists with CC weapons and a flamer
1 Dark Apostle (no upgrades, if you lack a model use the chaos lord as a stand in)

Lords of the Black Crusade -

Sorcerer - ML3 + spell familiar

Auxillary-
Chaos Spawn

This should demolish your opponent in such a low point game due largely to the fact the majority of your army respawns on a 4+, the chaos spawn is cheap and effective and the sorcerer kicks ass with spell familiar. You will find range dosn't matter if you can respawn the bulk of your army from anywhere in the adjacent table edge.

When taking your sorcerer roll on the new CSM powers and you wont be disapointed, especially roll on sinistrum for a kick ass primaris and the ability to effortlessly flick away those eldar witchfires and make the enemy psykers head explode!

Also side note: khorn and tzeench CSM armies are absolute trash currently and don't let anyone tell you different. Slannesh noise marines have some of the best weapons in the codex (doom siren, blast master and slanneshi icon) and nurgle plague marines are just kick ass in general thanks to their high toughness. 10 noise marines with CC weps and an icon will absolutely butcher khorn beserkers with the same loadout and they are meant to be the go to unit for CC! As for tzeench he has worse magic powers than nurgle and your thousand sons are forced to roll on that crappy table.

10/10 solid advice. Thank you! I hadn't even considered running a Black Crusade detachment at this low of a point limit; I hadn't thought it could be done until you suggested this.

JNAProductions wrote:My advice? Ask you friend to not be TFG. He's got Eldar (one of the best armies in the game) and he's list tailoring against you, a CSM (one of the worst armies in the game) player? That's... That's just mean. And unneeded.

Thank you. I'm glad to know that I'm not just getting butthurt for no reason.

Only problem I can see you coming across is killing that eldar wave serpent, but with so many re-spawning cultists I don't think he can afford to keep his units in there for long, but the sorcerer can also take care of that if need be.

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

The fact that it's only 500 points is why you need to take Be'lakor. He comes with Invisibilty automatically and has Shrouded plus the ability to Jink which means he can always have 2+ cover and can only be snap shot at. No army in the game can bring enough firepower at 500 pts to bring him down, even eldar.

Also idk why there is such issue with running a 70% of your army as a single unit when running a supposedly balanced army isn't working. You need to think outside the box man.

 CrownAxe wrote:

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

The fact that it's only 500 points is why you need to take Be'lakor. He comes with Invisibilty automatically and has Shrouded plus the ability to Jink which means he can always have 2+ cover and can only be snap shot at. No army in the game can bring enough firepower at 500 pts to bring him down, even eldar.

Also idk why there is such issue with running a 70% of your army as a single unit when running a supposedly balanced army isn't working. You need to think outside the box man.

Alright, but if I'm disappointed that he's running a cheeseball list just for the sake of winning, obviously I'm not wanting to resort to something even cheesier, I'm wanting to win through superior tactics.

Plus, once I've used him, I will have a $40 model sitting around that I'll probably never use again outside of building an army around him, which is exactly the opposite of the kind of army I am collecting. I've already said I don't want a "we put the Chaos in Chaos Space Marine" army.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'd have to get really, really, really fed up with my friend to spend a trip to the grocery store's worth of cash on a big "feth you". I'm just not there yet.

Just don't allow list tailoring. See, that's the main problem. The state of the game is that you can't always win with just superior tactics.

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

The fact that it's only 500 points is why you need to take Be'lakor. He comes with Invisibilty automatically and has Shrouded plus the ability to Jink which means he can always have 2+ cover and can only be snap shot at. No army in the game can bring enough firepower at 500 pts to bring him down, even eldar.

Also idk why there is such issue with running a 70% of your army as a single unit when running a supposedly balanced army isn't working. You need to think outside the box man.

Alright, but if I'm disappointed that he's running a cheeseball list just for the sake of winning, obviously I'm not wanting to resort to something even cheesier, I'm wanting to win through superior tactics.

Plus, once I've used him, I will have a $40 model sitting around that I'll probably never use again outside of building an army around him, which is exactly the opposite of the kind of army I am collecting. I've already said I don't want a "we put the Chaos in Chaos Space Marine" army.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'd have to get really, really, really fed up with my friend to spend a trip to the grocery store's worth of cash on a big "feth you". I'm just not there yet.

Tbh, Belakor is one of the best unit in Chaos army, he is great in both supporting and being a beat stick himself. The garanteed Invisibility is great not just on himself, but also on something else when some day you play higher points game. Imagine your opponent's face when you invisible a D-Thirster. How about getting a invisible Maulerfiend? How about Invisibility that 5 Nurgle Spawns? I might probably sh** bricks myself Also, Remember he can just fly high and have 4++, so he can buff his buddies and no need to worry his own safety.

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

The fact that it's only 500 points is why you need to take Be'lakor. He comes with Invisibilty automatically and has Shrouded plus the ability to Jink which means he can always have 2+ cover and can only be snap shot at. No army in the game can bring enough firepower at 500 pts to bring him down, even eldar.

Also idk why there is such issue with running a 70% of your army as a single unit when running a supposedly balanced army isn't working. You need to think outside the box man.

Alright, but if I'm disappointed that he's running a cheeseball list just for the sake of winning, obviously I'm not wanting to resort to something even cheesier, I'm wanting to win through superior tactics.

Plus, once I've used him, I will have a $40 model sitting around that I'll probably never use again outside of building an army around him, which is exactly the opposite of the kind of army I am collecting. I've already said I don't want a "we put the Chaos in Chaos Space Marine" army.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'd have to get really, really, really fed up with my friend to spend a trip to the grocery store's worth of cash on a big "feth you". I'm just not there yet.

Eh you could always use a be'lakor model for when you roll dark apothesis and just use him as an ordinary daemon prince. Personally I only take him in games over 1000 points and thats if I know my opponent is bringing heavy vehicles I can't normally deal with like a knight, because be'lakor is one of the few things in the CSM codex that can solo a knight.

What about a normal (cheaper) plastic winged prince painted black/grey-blue countin as Belakor when needed?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
What about a normal (cheaper) plastic winged prince painted black/grey-blue countin as Belakor when needed?

Do you mean be'lakor? Seriously, he's the cheapest model at 31 euros versus 32 of the regular (AND HORRID) daemon princes of the CSM and the 33 of the daemon prince from codex daemons.

 CrownAxe wrote:

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

The fact that it's only 500 points is why you need to take Be'lakor. He comes with Invisibilty automatically and has Shrouded plus the ability to Jink which means he can always have 2+ cover and can only be snap shot at. No army in the game can bring enough firepower at 500 pts to bring him down, even eldar.

Also idk why there is such issue with running a 70% of your army as a single unit when running a supposedly balanced army isn't working. You need to think outside the box man.

Markerlights. 'Nuff said

Some ideas:

1- Enough Firepower to bring down the wave serpent: Havocs with autocannons or, if you are using crimson slaughter you could make PE plasma chosen with draznitch. I would use that terminator sorcerer, maybe LV2 with the new Heretech discipline, in order to get some haywire attacks.
2- Speaking of sorcerors, if you bring it solo with BBoS you could destroy that serpent and simply wipe the unit that was inside of it.
3- Chaos troops are underwhelming if you're trying to win a tailored eldar. Stick with two minimal cultists squads, keep them in reserve and use them to capture some objectives late game.
4- Do not discard Ahriman. He can fire Doombolts or Firestorms three times in a turn, being a LV4 sorcerer is a very powerful tool.
5- If your opponent is ok with a little proxying, you could use that helbrute as a decimator, which has deep strike and could be a serious pain.

 Obliterax wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

The fact that it's only 500 points is why you need to take Be'lakor. He comes with Invisibilty automatically and has Shrouded plus the ability to Jink which means he can always have 2+ cover and can only be snap shot at. No army in the game can bring enough firepower at 500 pts to bring him down, even eldar.

Also idk why there is such issue with running a 70% of your army as a single unit when running a supposedly balanced army isn't working. You need to think outside the box man.

Markerlights. 'Nuff said

Some ideas:

1- Enough Firepower to bring down the wave serpent: Havocs with autocannons or, if you are using crimson slaughter you could make PE plasma chosen with draznitch. I would use that terminator sorcerer, maybe LV2 with the new Heretech discipline, in order to get some haywire attacks.
2- Speaking of sorcerors, if you bring it solo with BBoS you could destroy that serpent and simply wipe the unit that was inside of it.
3- Chaos troops are underwhelming if you're trying to win a tailored eldar. Stick with two minimal cultists squads, keep them in reserve and use them to capture some objectives late game.
4- Do not discard Ahriman. He can fire Doombolts or Firestorms three times in a turn, being a LV4 sorcerer is a very powerful tool.
5- If your opponent is ok with a little proxying, you could use that helbrute as a decimator, which has deep strike and could be a serious pain.

Why take ahriman? Not only is he overpriced as feth but a level 3 sorcerer with spell familiar is a far better at casting spells than ahriman himself! Re-rolls with your warp dice is incredibly powerful, not only that with ahriman your forced to roll on tzeench table atleast once meaning you don't get a free primaris power. At half the price you are literally getting a better psyker.

Also, have you read the new traitors hate cultist formation? It is one of CSM's greatest tools now for cannon fodder and cover saves. 4 units of cultists and a dark apostle making nearby cultists fearless is amazing. 2 units of cultists will die turn 1 or 2 garrenteed, whereas 4 units that respawn on 4+ will really prove troublesome.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
What about a normal (cheaper) plastic winged prince painted black/grey-blue countin as Belakor when needed?

Do you mean be'lakor? Seriously, he's the cheapest model at 31 euros versus 32 of the regular (AND HORRID) daemon princes of the CSM and the 33 of the daemon prince from codex daemons.

AHAHAHAH* you are completely right. The price above is in dollars. Nevermind then. If it costs the same, the model is miles ahead the others.

Still, I do not dislike the resin CSM prince. I have the metal version with the old WHFB plastic wings, was a present from my friends in Italy

Anyway, on topic: is an excellent model, I do not think it would be a waste of money OP...


*JAJAJAJAJAJA

Give him a dummy list for him to tailor against, then tailor your actual list against what he will likely bring to beat your dummy list. Chaos are underhanded - and damn well need to be to beat Eldar at the best of times, let alone specifically tailored Eldar...

Reavas wrote:

 Obliterax wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

The fact that it's only 500 points is why you need to take Be'lakor. He comes with Invisibilty automatically and has Shrouded plus the ability to Jink which means he can always have 2+ cover and can only be snap shot at. No army in the game can bring enough firepower at 500 pts to bring him down, even eldar.

Also idk why there is such issue with running a 70% of your army as a single unit when running a supposedly balanced army isn't working. You need to think outside the box man.

Markerlights. 'Nuff said

Some ideas:

1- Enough Firepower to bring down the wave serpent: Havocs with autocannons or, if you are using crimson slaughter you could make PE plasma chosen with draznitch. I would use that terminator sorcerer, maybe LV2 with the new Heretech discipline, in order to get some haywire attacks.
2- Speaking of sorcerors, if you bring it solo with BBoS you could destroy that serpent and simply wipe the unit that was inside of it.
3- Chaos troops are underwhelming if you're trying to win a tailored eldar. Stick with two minimal cultists squads, keep them in reserve and use them to capture some objectives late game.
4- Do not discard Ahriman. He can fire Doombolts or Firestorms three times in a turn, being a LV4 sorcerer is a very powerful tool.
5- If your opponent is ok with a little proxying, you could use that helbrute as a decimator, which has deep strike and could be a serious pain.

Why take ahriman? Not only is he overpriced as feth but a level 3 sorcerer with spell familiar is a far better at casting spells than ahriman himself! Re-rolls with your warp dice is incredibly powerful, not only that with ahriman your forced to roll on tzeench table atleast once meaning you don't get a free primaris power. At half the price you are literally getting a better psyker.

Also, have you read the new traitors hate cultist formation? It is one of CSM's greatest tools now for cannon fodder and cover saves. 4 units of cultists and a dark apostle making nearby cultists fearless is amazing. 2 units of cultists will die turn 1 or 2 garrenteed, whereas 4 units that respawn on 4+ will really prove troublesome.

Ahriman knows the whole tzeentch lore, generates 4 casting dice, and unleash three doombolts, firestorms or chaos breaths, THREE. At 500 pts, it is truly horrific for eldar to get hit with only one of these powers. It has 5 S6 AP4 WS5 attacks, so I find him very capable of killing eldar with ease

About cultists, yeah, I know that formation and I agree, it is a cool one. But we are talking about a 500 points game. If you use that formation, even without taking the Black Crusade detachment, you're paying at least 305, made only for dying. Spend 60% of your points on slow footslogging weak models versus one of the fastest army in the game with the objective or being shot to death isn't a good plan in my opinion... Heck, they don't even get OS!

As an Eldar player I can tell you that your friend is an a##@le.

 Obliterax wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Take Be'lakor

And sink 70% of my points into one unit? Did you read the point limit my friend and I usually play with?

The fact that it's only 500 points is why you need to take Be'lakor. He comes with Invisibilty automatically and has Shrouded plus the ability to Jink which means he can always have 2+ cover and can only be snap shot at. No army in the game can bring enough firepower at 500 pts to bring him down, even eldar.

Also idk why there is such issue with running a 70% of your army as a single unit when running a supposedly balanced army isn't working. You need to think outside the box man.

Markerlights. 'Nuff said

Some ideas:

1- Enough Firepower to bring down the wave serpent: Havocs with autocannons or, if you are using crimson slaughter you could make PE plasma chosen with draznitch. I would use that terminator sorcerer, maybe LV2 with the new Heretech discipline, in order to get some haywire attacks.
2- Speaking of sorcerors, if you bring it solo with BBoS you could destroy that serpent and simply wipe the unit that was inside of it.
3- Chaos troops are underwhelming if you're trying to win a tailored eldar. Stick with two minimal cultists squads, keep them in reserve and use them to capture some objectives late game.
4- Do not discard Ahriman. He can fire Doombolts or Firestorms three times in a turn, being a LV4 sorcerer is a very powerful tool.
5- If your opponent is ok with a little proxying, you could use that helbrute as a decimator, which has deep strike and could be a serious pain.

1-Havocs with autocannons is what I was thinking, too. I hadn't thought I could fit them in a 500-pt game, but I've been playing around and I think it's an important curveball I need. As for the sorcerer idea... I'll keep that in mind.
2-I suppose if I deep strike him, but that's a very big gamble. If I don't succeed it's game over for the sorcerer, who is also my warlord.
3-I think, if I'm going with cultists, a better strategy would be to overwhelm with superior numbers, no? And keeping them in reserve seems counter-productive when I could make use of having more units to capture more objectives and hold them longer.
4-I find that Ahriman is quite useless unless I have other psykers from whom he can siphon warp charges. I am so very disappointed that, for his price, he doesn't at least have a spell familiar; a ML3 sorcerer with a spell familiar is infinitely more reliable for the ability to re-roll failed psychic test, which is why I don't run Ahriman at such low point limits.
5-I really should look at FW more often. I had to stop reading the Decimator rules three times because my penis literally could not get more erect. Quick question, though.... where do you see that it has Deep Strike? I found the datasheet online, but the words "Deep Strike" don't seem to appear in it?

Your friend is a massive knob for list tailoring against one of the worst armies in the game with one of the best armies.

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:
I had to stop reading the Decimator rules three times because my penis literally could not get more erect. Quick question, though.... where do you see that it has Deep Strike? I found the datasheet online, but the words "Deep Strike" don't seem to appear in it?

I figured out why I can't find Deep Strike in the Decimator rules... I'm looking at a previous version (for 6th edition, I believe).

Does anybody have the 7th edition rules for it? Everywhere I look for them I get directed to a dead link (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/Decimator_mk2.pdf). I can see the updated stats in BattleScribe (which clued me in about having the wrong edition, because the newest rules have the cost increased to 205 pts instead of 195 pts).

Edit: Nevermind, I found it in the 2013 Imperial Armour: Apocalypse.

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:

ProsperinePhoenix wrote:
I had to stop reading the Decimator rules three times because my penis literally could not get more erect. Quick question, though.... where do you see that it has Deep Strike? I found the datasheet online, but the words "Deep Strike" don't seem to appear in it?

I figured out why I can't find Deep Strike in the Decimator rules... I'm looking at a previous version (for 6th edition, I believe).

Does anybody have the 7th edition rules for it? Everywhere I look for them I get directed to a dead link (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/Decimator_mk2.pdf). I can see the updated stats in BattleScribe (which clued me in about having the wrong edition, because the newest rules have the cost increased to 205 pts instead of 195 pts).

Edit: Nevermind, I found it in the 2013 Imperial Armour: Apocalypse.

It's most recent rules are in IA13

The suggestion for the Black Crusade/Lost and Damned is a good one but would involve buying a few more models. Working with what you have I'd try the following.

Termi Sorcerer, ML3, Spell Familiar, Burning Brand, Power Sword/Maul
10× Cultists
10x Cultists
5x Havoc w 4 autocannon
1x Helbrute w Reaper autocannon

Without knowing too much about your opponents typical lists (other than the wave serpent) this could be a decent option. Eldar armour isn't the greatest and so the autocannon could do well with AP4 unless he is stuffing his serpent with wraithguard. If you had and ADL and quad gun I'd even think about taking that instead of the Helbrute for 4 more twin-linked autocannon shots to try and take the serpent down. Also it would give decent cover for your havocs if your table doesn't have much.

All that being said, however, your biggest problem is clearly your opponents attitude. The Eldar codex is one of the strongest and the disparities with CSM will be even more evident at such a low points level. With this in mind, tailoring his list while you popped out is really poor form in particular. If he's a good friend I'd just have a word with him and ask him to tone it down a bit. I understand that it would be great to win with CSM by tactical acumen alone, and whilst this is not impossible, you're simply at a disadvantage straight away because of the codex. Remind him that it's meast to be fun for both of you, it can't be much fun for him either if he wins easily every time. Challenge him to test his generalship with a weaker list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could also suggest, once you've chosen your lists for a game, that you swap armies just for a change. This might highlight to your friend the imbalance you're having to deal with when he list tailors.

Take unbound and take pink horrors all, take some troops preferably min cultists then take a sorcerer that means you have enough ML to beat him unless he is running two seers or a seer council, second what I found useful is taking a Hellbrute and rushing a wave serpent with him, he will wreck it in shooting with some havoc goodness support and then charge any squad and F%&"@ 'em like helpless babies using the power flail trust me it works even against a flyrant it works!

TESTED.
approved bynurgle and tzeentch


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if something from his backlines tries to pick the hellbrute off with anti-tank drop the chaos sorcerer and horrors behind 'em and screw them with physic scream because you took telepathy didn't you?

Tonberry7 wrote:The suggestion for the Black Crusade/Lost and Damned is a good one but would involve buying a few more models. Working with what you have I'd try the following.

Termi Sorcerer, ML3, Spell Familiar, Burning Brand, Power Sword/Maul
10× Cultists
10x Cultists
5x Havoc w 4 autocannon
1x Helbrute w Reaper autocannon

Without knowing too much about your opponents typical lists (other than the wave serpent) this could be a decent option. Eldar armour isn't the greatest and so the autocannon could do well with AP4 unless he is stuffing his serpent with wraithguard. If you had and ADL and quad gun I'd even think about taking that instead of the Helbrute for 4 more twin-linked autocannon shots to try and take the serpent down. Also it would give decent cover for your havocs if your table doesn't have much.

I will give this list a try. It looks pretty good and, more importantly, I don't have to buy more models to run it.

Tonberry7 wrote:All that being said, however, your biggest problem is clearly your opponents attitude. The Eldar codex is one of the strongest and the disparities with CSM will be even more evident at such a low points level. With this in mind, tailoring his list while you popped out is really poor form in particular. If he's a good friend I'd just have a word with him and ask him to tone it down a bit. I understand that it would be great to win with CSM by tactical acumen alone, and whilst this is not impossible, you're simply at a disadvantage straight away because of the codex. Remind him that it's meast to be fun for both of you, it can't be much fun for him either if he wins easily every time. Challenge him to test his generalship with a weaker list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could also suggest, once you've chosen your lists for a game, that you swap armies just for a change. This might highlight to your friend the imbalance you're having to deal with when he list tailors.

That is a very solid suggestion and I really appreciate it.

I think that the decisive defeat that I served him in our very first game (my second ever game, as it was) really prejudiced him against CSM. He'd been collecting for years and I had finally assembled my army (after it had sat in some boxes in my closet since before 6th edition), given the 7th edition rules a thorough perusal, and completely outmanoeuvred him in both the objectives and in the open field. Come to think of it, the friend I played my first game against had also list tailored. He knew I had a defiler and he built his army such that he was all but guaranteed to kill it first turn. Of course, I decided not to run it that game because the army point limit was too low and defilers had kind of been raped by the rules since I had bought it. He was sour about losing to me, too.

Maybe I just need better friends. >feelsbadman

sushi2001 wrote:Take unbound and take pink horrors all, take some troops preferably min cultists then take a sorcerer that means you have enough ML to beat him unless he is running two seers or a seer council, second what I found useful is taking a Hellbrute and rushing a wave serpent with him, he will wreck it in shooting with some havoc goodness support and then charge any squad and F%&"@ 'em like helpless babies using the power flail trust me it works even against a flyrant it works!

TESTED.
approved bynurgle and tzeentch


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if something from his backlines tries to pick the hellbrute off with anti-tank drop the chaos sorcerer and horrors behind 'em and screw them with physic scream because you took telepathy didn't you?

How am I supposed to get my Helbrute into melee range to use the power flail? The Helbrute doesn't have smoke launchers anymore (thanks, Obam--I mean, 7th edition...), so unless his Eldar come into my charge range (which would be really, really dumb of him...) I would have paid out of my precious few points to have an upgrade just for the privilege of looking menacing as my Helbrute dies trying to get close enough to use it.

Seriously, if you have an idea, I'm really interested. The Helbrute has five attacks, now. I've been using him defensively as support for my Thousand Sons to kill anything with an armour lower than 3 or higher than 12 (i.e. the only things the Rubric Marines can't dakka to death in one round with their rapid fire inferno bolts). I'd like to be able to use this monstrosity offensively in some way that isn't a Distraction Carnifex.

Edit: I oops'd spelling something.