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Interesting question came up in another thread of mine. Can Renegades and Heretics: Renegades of Vraks be a Kill Team army? And if so, can they field a Medusa (under Elite choice, Renegade Artillery Battery) without an HQ choice?

As long as they fit into the kill team rules you can bring them

Under 200
2 or more models
no 2+ armor saves
no HQ
No heavy
No vehicles with Front, side, and rear armor adding to more then 33

 Backspacehacker wrote:
As long as they fit into the kill team rules you can bring them

Under 200
2 or more models
no 2+ armor saves
no HQ
No heavy
No vehicles with Front, side, and rear armor adding to more then 33

The rules for the Renegades army though state it must have an HQ choice to be a legal army. Since the Detachment does not allow HQ choices, wouldn't it then void the ability to bring the Army in said detachment?

I thought it was that they needed an HQ for a heavy support to become an elite choice. They need an HQ to be fielded period?

Jacksmiles wrote:
I thought it was that they needed an HQ for a heavy support to become an elite choice. They need an HQ to be fielded period?

You very well could be right. I guess my biggest question is regardless of if you can bring the Army, can you field a Renegade Artillery Battery without an HQ?

I didn't see the full discussion in the other thread. Now I'm up to date haha. I have no idea, as I don't have the book to reference. Of course, TO's can always overrule stuff like this too, to allow someone to play their beloved army in Kill Team.

The requirement for a mandatory HQ doesn't go away just because the detachment doesn't have an HQ slot. So no you can't use renegades in Kill Team.

Does the Renegades of Vraks book remove the requirement of needing a Command Squad to field a Renegades and Heretics list?

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
As long as they fit into the kill team rules you can bring them

Under 200
2 or more models
no 2+ armor saves
no HQ
No heavy
No vehicles with Front, side, and rear armor adding to more then 33

The rules for the Renegades army though state it must have an HQ choice to be a legal army. Since the Detachment does not allow HQ choices, wouldn't it then void the ability to bring the Army in said detachment?

Do you have a source for that? I just looked through IA13 and the Vraks book looking for such a rule. All I found was that a demagogue from one of the command squads MAY be upgraded with a covenant.
I'm curious what I missed and how a CAD/special detachment rule might be carried over to kill team.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, found the suspected part it in the other thread.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/702923.page

Posting there.

Ok, sounds good.

Posting for the sake of the discussion.

HQ slot has a 1+ to it, meaning it is a required part of army building. Since Kill Team does not allow, I would say no go. Akin to Harlequins not being able to use a CAD.

Just my thoughts (dragged over from the original thread!)

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Posting for the sake of the discussion.

HQ slot has a 1+ to it, meaning it is a required part of army building. Since Kill Team does not allow, I would say no go. Akin to Harlequins not being able to use a CAD.

Just my thoughts (dragged over from the original thread!)

Harlequins cannot use a CAD because they cannot fill the HQ slot. That is a completely different issue.

The notations 0-1 or 1+ refer to building a regular detachment for 40k. The army list has several choices you unlock with devotions and covenants (warlord mods), those are noted in the same way. The army list does not have a diagramm with mandatory / optional boxes as we know from CAD in the BRB, that is why it has 0-1 or 1+ noted on the datasheets. This is exactly the same as a mandatory HQ slot in an allied detachment, CAD or custom force organisation.

While I grant you that the notation is different, how is the "1+" functionally different from other factions 40k force organisation options and requirements?
Let's take a Cult Mechanicus Kill team. Cult can use it's own force org chart, which requires 1 HQ or use a CAD or Allied detachment - which also require 1 HQ. Does that mean they cannot build a kill team list?

 Stephanius wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Posting for the sake of the discussion.

HQ slot has a 1+ to it, meaning it is a required part of army building. Since Kill Team does not allow, I would say no go. Akin to Harlequins not being able to use a CAD.

Just my thoughts (dragged over from the original thread!)

Harlequins cannot use a CAD because they cannot fill the HQ slot. That is a completely different issue.

The notations 0-1 or 1+ refer to building a regular detachment for 40k. The army list has several choices you unlock with devotions and covenants (warlord mods), those are noted in the same way. The army list does not have a diagramm with mandatory / optional boxes as we know from CAD in the BRB, that is why it has 0-1 or 1+ noted on the datasheets. This is exactly the same as a mandatory HQ slot in an allied detachment, CAD or custom force organisation.

While I grant you that the notation is different, how is the "1+" functionally different from other factions 40k force organisation options and requirements?
Let's take a Cult Mechanicus Kill team. Cult can use it's own force org chart, which requires 1 HQ or use a CAD or Allied detachment - which also require 1 HQ. Does that mean they cannot build a kill team list?

You are looking at it a bit wrong. The Forge Org chart for the Kill Team has specific requirements. The CAD does too (2 troops, HQ). Units are labelled according to their slot - so using a unique detachment or a standard CAD, you follow those unit assignments. An HQ is required in a CAD, but for Renegades, the HQ listed is a 1+. That means you must include it in your army - so you can build a CAD with it and honor that requirement. However, when you go to Kill Team and its zero HQ options, you can't include the required HQ slot to make the army legal, thus illegal.

And the Harley issue is not really different. Just opposite to this one. They don't have an HQ, meaning they can only use things that do not require one (precluding a CAD), while Renegades can only field an army that allows them an HQ, as they have a 1+ mandatory requirement.

Make sense? I rushed that a bit as I am at work. Hope it was clear.

I see your reasoning, but I don't agree with your logic.

You are ignoring the context. The army list calls out four detachments as force org options. Each includes a mandatory HQ, three include optional HQ slots. Unbound isn't considered, neither is Kill Team.

You read the 1+ as "Every detachment built with this faction must contain at least 1 Command Squad"

I read it as "You must have at least 1 Command Squad before you can add a Psyker or Enforcers unit"

There is written out rule to clarify the intent of the 1+ explicitly, but I think from the context of the force org options listed in the army list introduction and the pivotal role the command squad with it's demagogue's devotion plays for the Renegades, it is quite clear that my reading is correct.

1+ means you have to have at least one of the units in that detachment. The only exception would be formations that already have pre-specified unit types. For kill team, you do not have pre-specified unit types, just restrictions on what can be taken, so for taking specific faction you have to abide by the limitations of that faction. In this case you have the limitaion of 1+ Renegade Command Squad. Since you can not do that in kill team, as the rules stand right now you would not be able to. A FAQ answer might be able to change that for a Vraks army, but as it stands now you wouldn't be able to do it.

It's also a rather old standard of unit entry lists. You really don't see this much any more since the introduction of datasheets, at least on the Citadel-connected side of GW.

Is the 1+ and/or 0-1 actually explained somewhere in Siege of Vraks book or in the BRB? Or are you just sort of supposed to know/figure it out?

Cal Hoskins wrote:
Is the 1+ and/or 0-1 actually explained somewhere in Siege of Vraks book or in the BRB? Or are you just sort of supposed to know/figure it out?

There is no explanation or any explicit rule detailing the 1+ or 0-1 in the HQ entries in the Vraks book.

That is why we have to interpret it, which to me only makes sense in the context of the force org options that were in scope when the book was published. Each of those had a mandatory HQ. That is why I consider the 1+ and 0-1 as direction on how to use the mandatory and optional HQ slots.

When using the kill team detachment, we only use the general renegade army list rules and the specific datasheets we use. Obviously, that excludes all units that require HQ options to unlock and units that have their battlefield role shifted by HQ options, e.g. the offending HS Medusa.

 Stephanius wrote:
I see your reasoning, but I don't agree with your logic.

You are ignoring the context. The army list calls out four detachments as force org options. Each includes a mandatory HQ, three include optional HQ slots. Unbound isn't considered, neither is Kill Team.

You read the 1+ as "Every detachment built with this faction must contain at least 1 Command Squad"

I read it as "You must have at least 1 Command Squad before you can add a Psyker or Enforcers unit"

There is written out rule to clarify the intent of the 1+ explicitly, but I think from the context of the force org options listed in the army list introduction and the pivotal role the command squad with it's demagogue's devotion plays for the Renegades, it is quite clear that my reading is correct.

How you choose to read it doesn't have any impact on the 1+ clause, which has existed long before formations and whatnot. It is an old-fashioned way of saying a unit is mandatory at that level (1+ in this instance). And for reference, what you said you think it says is not explicity stated anywhere in the RCS rules.

The way I read it is how it is written, insofar as the Command Squad is mandatory for building a R&H list. That is because it is listed on that specific unit in the armylist, meaning no matter what Forge Org you choose (be it a CAD or Kill Team), you must abide. If you can't abide, the list is not legal.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
I see your reasoning, but I don't agree with your logic.

You are ignoring the context. The army list calls out four detachments as force org options. Each includes a mandatory HQ, three include optional HQ slots. Unbound isn't considered, neither is Kill Team.

You read the 1+ as "Every detachment built with this faction must contain at least 1 Command Squad"

I read it as "You must have at least 1 Command Squad before you can add a Psyker or Enforcers unit"

There is written out rule to clarify the intent of the 1+ explicitly, but I think from the context of the force org options listed in the army list introduction and the pivotal role the command squad with it's demagogue's devotion plays for the Renegades, it is quite clear that my reading is correct.

How you choose to read it doesn't have any impact on the 1+ clause, which has existed long before formations and whatnot. It is an old-fashioned way of saying a unit is mandatory at that level (1+ in this instance). And for reference, what you said you think it says is not explicity stated anywhere in the RCS rules.

The way I read it is how it is written, insofar as the Command Squad is mandatory for building a R&H list. That is because it is listed on that specific unit in the armylist, meaning no matter what Forge Org you choose (be it a CAD or Kill Team), you must abide. If you can't abide, the list is not legal.

While my interpretation isn't explicitly stated, neither is yours. If you have any supporting sources, please cite them. I only started in 6th Ed, so I don't know the game from back in the day.

Logically, when using a Codex or List, I have to use the general rules for that List (faction, allies and so on) and when I use any datasheet, I have to follow the rules contained in there.
When building a Kill Team detachment, we don't touch the HQ slot, so we are not using the HQ datasheets. To me it appears that any rules contained therein are not read/active/in use.

 Stephanius wrote:


While my interpretation isn't explicitly stated, neither is yours. If you have any supporting sources, please cite them. I only started in 6th Ed, so I don't know the game from back in the day.

Logically, when using a Codex or List, I have to use the general rules for that List (faction, allies and so on) and when I use any datasheet, I have to follow the rules contained in there.
When building a Kill Team detachment, we don't touch the HQ slot, so we are not using the HQ datasheets. To me it appears that any rules contained therein are not read/active/in use.

Mine is explicitly stated. 1+ means you need one or more of something. It is an HQ, so if you can't take it, you can't run a legal version of the list.

And having started in 6th, you wouldn't be familiar with this concept. Go grab some old 4th Ed Codices. It is an old-school way GW restricted list building. What you are missing is that while the HQ slot is not present in Kill Team, that doesn't mean we can ignore it if the armylist requires us to take one. You say "I have to use the general rules for that List " - well, that is what the 1+ is for. It is a list restriction meaning to run that army, you need that HQ. If you can't run that HQ, you can't run that army. While Kill Team offers its own Forge Org chart, it does not remove the stipulation from the R&H list requirement of 1+ RCS, which can't be taken due to the slot being absent.

Make sense?

 Stephanius wrote:


While my interpretation isn't explicitly stated, neither is yours. If you have any supporting sources, please cite them. I only started in 6th Ed, so I don't know the game from back in the day.

Logically, when using a Codex or List, I have to use the general rules for that List (faction, allies and so on) and when I use any datasheet, I have to follow the rules contained in there.
When building a Kill Team detachment, we don't touch the HQ slot, so we are not using the HQ datasheets. To me it appears that any rules contained therein are not read/active/in use.

It doesn't matter that you're not touching the HQ slot. You are told you need 1+ for the detachment. This would be for any detachment barring specific formations, which are already defined in the rulebook as being only the collection of units specified in the formation itself. Any other detachment would have to be able to include something that says 1+ to use that army list to make the army. In the case of Kill Team you can't do it because there's no slot for the HQ - the reverse problem Harlequins have. You don't have a slot for something that's required when trying to make a kill team, and they don't have a unit for a slot that's required to be filled in a CAD (the HQ).

 doctortom wrote:
You are told you need 1+ for the detachment.

This is somewhat off topic as it isn't related to Kill Team. Is the 1+ required per Detachment? Or is it per Army? Can you take one CAD with a Renegade Command Squad as the only HQ and another CAD with a Rogue Psykers Coven as the only HQ?

It would seem to be per detachment, once they defined detachment as the basic building block of battle forged armies.

It does seem though that they are relying more on people's memories of the old system with requirements and could spare a few lines in a FAQ about it.

Bit of a necro, but GW finally answered me.

When playing Kill Team, as written, R&H are not allowed. The reason for this is because in their detachment rules, HQ 1+ is explicitly mentioned. Does they Kill Team detachment matrix over-ride this, or are the Renegades of Vraks simply not compatible, or allowed, in Kill Team play?

Hey Kenneth ,
We're super-busy currently, preparing some awesome stuff for the future.
We’ll do our best to get back to you as soon as we can, but we can’t promise we’ll be able to reply within a week.

- The Warhammer Community Team
6:59AM

Hey Kenneth -

First of all, my huge apologies on how long it’s taken to respond to your message; it’s been really busy here in the Community Team for the last few months and it’s only now that we’re having a chance to go through the inbox!

Forge World models and rules are not designed to interact with Citadel rules in this way, including Kill Team. As such, there is no official ruling either way on this. We suggest you talk to your opponents before the game and make sure they are ok with using no HQ unit in the game. - Nick"

What a surprise that answer is lol.

Again, some TO's may allow it due to the restricted format of Kill Team to begin with, and other will not.

I've heard of people using the FW skitarii upgrades (secutarii?) in kill team as well, but the datasheet for those explicitly only allows them to be used in a skitarii codex detachment, the Maniple(?). It says nothing about using them as elite choices for any skitarii army, only that they can be elite choices in a Maniple.