Space Marine Veteran Sergeants

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**Traditio**

Does anybody here actually pay the 10 points to upgrade your space marine sergeants to veteran status? Why or why not? When is this upgrade useful?

**Slayer-Fan123**

No. Cute on Assault Marines but I would never take it willingly elsewhere.

**Matt.Kingsley**

Martel has been taking it on his BA squads using Angel's Blade just to test it out and try something different.

Typically it's pointless on Vanilla Marines though (unless you're a Black Templar player, then it might be useful).

**ZergSmasher**

The only times I take the Veteran upgrade is on my Dark Angels Assault Marine sarge (who has a Power Axe and therefore can do good work with an extra swing), and on one of my Ravenwing Bike sergeants (who has a Lightning Claw; again, really benefits from the extra attack). I think the upgrade can be worth it on a character with a good weapon like the ones I mentioned (or a hidden power fist...), but on a sarge with a chainsword, not really that good.

**Spineyguy**

Veteran Sergeants are good for the extra attack, but I take them mostly for the extra point of Leadership. I have no a tendency to roll extremely badly at the worst possible times, and Morale checks are a firm favourite.

Not essential, but take the upgrade if you want a bit of extra punch in Assault or that extra bit of staying power.

**TheManWithNoPlan**

I agree with Zerg and Spiney on this one. A sergeant with a melee weapon, leading a large squad of melee capable infantry can do with the Veteran upgrade. It's not essential, but if you don't want to spend those last ten points on melta bombs that you'll forget about it's a solid upgrade.

**Martel732**

I have been because GW has forced the BA to try to chop.

**Nevelon**

Only for the extra attack, always paired with a CC weapon.

So pretty much just assault marines. But almost always there. Occasionally a vet. scout sarge in a LSS with some CC scouts to back him up. I could also see it if I was using a 5 man tac squad as an ad-hoc command squad, or bikes accompanying a CC HQ.

Half the time, I don’t want the leadership. If I’m stuck in CC, I’m probably better off failing, falling back, auto-rallying, and shooting some more. Not all the time, obviously, but frequently.

**Slayer-Fan123**

You essentially pay 10 points for an extra attack.

**Martel732**

And one less wound vs psychic scream.

**Exalbaru**

I don't really think its worth it because I generally keep Sgts stock, but like above if given a nice weapon maybe then, I would be wary on a fist or axe though because it would suck to pay for a weapon and extra attack only to get aced at initiative by a claw, sword, or lance.

**Ratius**

Im not sure I ever have

**Slayer-Fan123**

Martel732 wrote:
And one less wound vs psychic scream.

Pretty sure Psychic Scream does majority LD. It was discussed elsewhere.

**Martel732**

Oh that's disappointing.

**kronk**

On tactical squads? No, never. Their job is to bee-bop around in rhinos, grab objectives and shoot stuff with bolters and a the occasional special weapons. Never assault. They might run from time to time, but they always regroup so...meh.

Crusader Squads? If I kit it out for assault, yes. Sometimes. Maybe. If I'm running it as a 5-man Special/Heavy squad? Nah. Never.

I don't run assault squads. I am not a fan of jump packs and my crusader squads can have 2 dudes with power weapons and the rest with BP + CCW anyway.

Devastators? Nah. If they run off by 1 leadership, they were cowards, anyway!

**Crazyterran**

Assault Squads in Skyhammer, yes, make them a vet with either a power mace or axe.

**Saythings**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And one less wound vs psychic scream.

Pretty sure Psychic Scream does majority LD. It was discussed elsewhere.

Whaaaaaa? Leadership tests are always from the highest in the unit. Hmm. I haven't heard differently. Any chance you have a link to that YMDC?

**nareik**

Saythings wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And one less wound vs psychic scream.

Pretty sure Psychic Scream does majority LD. It was discussed elsewhere.

Whaaaaaa? Leadership tests are always from the highest in the unit. Hmm. I haven't heard differently. Any chance you have a link to that YMDC?

I've not read the discussion but I'm guessing the idea is that Psychic Sceam isn't a proper leadership test so uses the majority stat rule instead?

The pip of leadership can be useful if a lot of tests are being taken (tank shock spam, speed bumping or whatever), but unless you are at risk of being TRAPPED! or pushed off the table ATSKNF makes a reasonable safety net.

**niv-mizzet**

Just about never. It would have to be a large squad to protect the investment, and the sarge would need a special weapon (also overcosted as all hell) to make it desirable at all.

The one time I ran a list with mass vet usage was a UM list with 6 tac squads in rhinos, each with a grav cannon. There the +1 Ld was relevant in stopping snapshots from vehicle damage as well as passing pin checks, because a single grav cannon snap shooting is a big deal.

**Red__Thirst**

I intend to run one Tactical Squad in my Blood Angels, and my sergeant is armed with a Lightning Claw and a Combi-flamer (Squad will be a firestorm unit, Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer coming in via drop pod) that will be charging when able to take advantage of the +1 init and Furious Charge bonuses.

In my opinion, and in my case, it's worth the 10 points for the extra attack and point of leadership since this squad will be getting stuck in melee frequently. My second troops choice is a small scout squad with melee weapons + meltabombs on the sergeant (no upgrade here) and my third troops choice is Cassor the Damned.

Were I running multiple tactical squads I wouldn't pay for the upgrade on every one, it would depend on their wargear really, nor would I pay for it on a Devastator Squad sergeant, but I definitely would on an Assault Squad without question.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

**Saber**

I almost always upgrade to a veteran sergeant in Assault squads, as they need power weapons and extra attacks.

I only do it for Devastator squads if I have spare points and no character to babysit the unit. LD 9 is helpful for passing morale checks, which can be very dangerous for Devastators as they are often placed near the board edge. It's a pure luxury, though, and I only do it for something different once in a while.

I usually upgrade one Tactical squad sergeant to a veteran, as I find the extra attack on a power fist can be useful for helping the squad push the enemy off an isolated objective or knocking out a tank in assault. It's not essential by any means but I find it useful enough that I usually make a point of including the upgrade.

**Xenomancers**

for the cost of that upgrade you can get a combi weapon...and there aint no chance im taking 25 points of upgrades on a worthless PA marine. Unless it's a VV.

**Lusall**

If I have the points, sure. For tac squads, especially with Dark Angels now, I find a combi weapon to be a nice add on. But only if I've got left over points.

Assault squads always get a vet sgt. That's been my method since I started playing in 3rd edition.

**jhe90**

Powerfist + veteran 15-35 points more.

That's also risky on. A squishy, one wound, 3+ model.

Its a rather expensive egg in a fragile basket.

Not a army wide idea, but for one or two could be helpful.

**Martel732**

For BA sergeants, the powerfist is missing the point a bit.

**Vilehydra**

I always upgrade my VS because of the frequency of psychic shriek in my local meta.

Also VS's are really important for the Stormlance DemiCo because of how often the rhino is going to get stunned or shaken. LD 9 has saved my ass many times.

**Insularum**

It's just too expensive, even in a melee unit. An assault squad with vet sarge, power weapon and 1 hidden eviscerator costs the same as a vanguard squad with power weapons and vet stats all round.

Most of the time my sarge upgrades are a combi weapon if he's shooting, or a melta bomb if he's getting close up. The only times I've had any use out of vet sarges are in squads that have a HQ tagged on (as an overcosted hidden powerfist), or in cheap throwaway units like scouts (especially BA scouts with +1 init/furious charge).

**Galef**

I would say that it Kill Team it its worth it since a Vet Sgt is either your leader or a specialist. The extra attack in KT goes much farther.

**Mrs. Esterhouse**

I use a Vet Sgt as my leader in Killteam for the extra Ld and Attk.
For fluff purposes I like having a vet leading my team.

**HoundsofDemos**

Never. Not worth it on tacticals or devastators and I don't use assault marines. If my marines other than my scouts are in combat something has went wrong and their probably dead anyway.